The War on Drugs is a Failure

frank and i are extremely pleased to have a good and long-time friends actually i'm back back with us today arteriovenous jack was active in our show from nineteen seventy eight the nineteen eighty-one and sense leaving austin in new york city he's worked as a journalist writing for various newspapers and magazines he's worked as a right sure and most recently have been working in a drug treatment store center in new york city but i wouldn't have talked with jack on the problems of drugs in society talking about some of his experiences as a drug counselor and some of his analysis and perspectives on the problems of drugs and society so jack welcome back from trenton was great that you know it's nice to get back i have been watching their you're showing alternatives up in new york city on the cuny station song four times a week up there very going in there i've been watching you guys age if his card without the u_s_ out and uh... sake well i i guess it's not ravages of time and haagen-dazs speaking a rabbit as you know we got this big warren drugs just got to be a war on something or other going on so you are so to speak as a drug house or new york city or in the trenches so can you say something transient about the war on drugs well actually govern i'm not really in the trenches are becoming the mesh unit well uh... more um... more than a foot soldier ameritech and um... or other use of the first thing to start out with his i think we need to eighty-six this idea of the who are on drugs i think it's part of that that we have conceding the problem is part of the problem rather than the solution as a military type of a military level troops against at the white but out there on twenty twenty one in a in a war you look to defeat the enemy first what we have to analyze what is the enemy i think that you know bonilla pulled should trained as a political scientist i remember that george orwell wrote a great essay in nineteen forty eight i think that group politics a little bit id he cautioned be mindful of the language did you use because it shapes how do you think about social problems and i think it reaching for if there's something about the were metaphor that reveal something about the american character it it says that you know the for our first instinct is to reach for the good mhm and i'd think we need is understanding in this problem i think we need to be looking at not the tactics of how to win the war but one of the underlying assumptions of this war and aren't i think that we don't get that much of it in the press writing for the most part we get just discussions of tactics and not really one of the basic assumptions behind this effort at such a complex subject you have everything from jockey on the street to the pressures to that big uh... like *** cartels down and columbia to the c_i_a_ involved in drugs were right on up through the uh... white house administrating some of this and also the use of the drug war two try to curtail civil liberties uh... there the medical aspects that itself complex where do you start trying to get a handle on this drug problem i think one of the first things you do is to understand it from my perspective as somebody who works in the field um... we don't see it as the drug problem we see is the drug symptom uh... when someone comes to us in as a social worker you do the first time you see when you do is very in-depth intake where you get there history their life history you do that because you implicitly understand that people don't use drugs accidentally they use it 'cause it makes sense within the context of their lives and so i think what we need to do is look about look look what we do with addicts what we're doing a twelve-step edwin in alcoholics anonymous narcotics anonymous would you do is usd taking one of the statue has to take personal inventory and to write down your character defects well we has a society being need need to take that same inventory into right down or defects what is it about our culture about our economic political and social institutions which are generating such widespread drug involvement well jack let's begin with that carpet cleaner experiences account so that is a informed the drive the people to drugs do you do it well it's it's really complicated it's extremely complicated let me first of all say that it's not really a it's it's it's it's sort of provocative to say the drug use drugs are a problem but they're the same time there's really no consensus about what what this disputes a symptom of what right let's take for instance conservatives conservatives think its descent into they think it's a symptom of decline of personal responsibility of morals of basic permissiveness argue are drug czar william bennett is is uh... one of his favorite targets is the nineteen sixties as a pile of permissiveness you'll say well this is what happens you get drugs when you you have a society says if it feels good do it over to your own thing and uh... any sense that basically sweden qualified to present a problem can be traced back to the sixties william bennett is a smart guy he's got a p_h_d_ right here from you to a higher authority for us to depart right in a federal law degree from harvard but he really ought to be a better student of history because that the actual wants of uh... it we set our own country go farther back than the nineteen sixties in fact we can trace it back to the eighteen sixties the first annex in the united states symbol war veterans many of whom were wrapped with battlefield means remember medicine is extremely creative time you get a gunshot wound rapport if your arm and leg a lot of these fellows we're just in extreme agony it when the war was over well hypodermic needle had been invented in eighteen fifty seven they found out that you take a little morphine in strange into hypodermic and you've got some relief so the first addicts in fact were more phoenix civil war veterans but shouldn't stop there in fact when we talk about *** today in the *** epidemic by the way i i really don't use terms like epidemic i really think that that uh... in many ways the idea of the drugs being contagious it also gives the feel that you know people is somehow tainted so i i usually shy away from the for the first the first time the drugs appear *** appeared on the scene was in fact in the eighteen eighties in united states coca-cola the active ingredient coca-cola off from eighteen eighty six to nineteen oh five let's go kate uh... twelve freud thought i was going to be the solution of mankind's problem absolutely there's no doubt about that nature was their *** addict in preparing look ok worst anyway everywhere we can legally was in every one of the patent medicine semua door-to-door salesmen would come around uh... in fact uh... there was only there was a uh... uh... syrup that was given to you to t_v_ infants that had in fact hoping that it at the time and it was uh... whose car that was called missus one sins or something seem soothing syrup nausea put that on the grounds of the of the infant and yes it would certainly stop crying because it would be in oblivion and uh... outlook and the ferris developing a new found *** he had marijuana use remember most people are aware of the united states was the last semester in country western europe uh... to enact it narcotics laws that was in nineteen fourteen and we had the add ironic situation in nineteen twenties were alcohol was illegal everybody water was legal well right now if there was such widespread availability and use of all these potent drugs during apply wasn't the whole country uh... bladder delegates mind and all these and having all these problems that we have today well at actually if you read if you read the text of the times you read if you read books and accounts of the times it was really serious problem in fact uh... david must allow a psychiatrist historian at yale as documented in above colby american disease worry traces the history anti-war real serious problems was not or limited to just it was that there was a history of of uh... of uh... uh... of of of black workers being given *** by the abortions in order to do to get didn't work out of them you also had very odd you know um... the even the high society i don't mean that is upon uh... in places like new york city in san francisco after a night on the ten would read we treat our *** dens in the in the chinatown sections of new york in in san francisco as did the writers and the uh... bohemian exactly exactly other seven percent belvoir sincerest problems that would generate in that and and at the time when it was understood was there was a retrieved from it was a retreat from drug use um... pleasure i want a lot about uh... now we've had uh... alcohol use sammy centuries millennia there you go back and show the bible or other uh... old ancient publications and they talk about people get brock so we've had had these uh... psychoactive uh... uh... drugs whether illegal or legal their sense mankind has been uh... dot on the design doubt about that in fact the parent they've done on proposed astounded and uh... archaeologists have found emitting in egypt papyrus scrolls that talked about the first breweries in in in shimoga being thirty five hundred b_c_ before that in ancient samaria they use to use *** which the word they used to or be moved joy military or civilian mysteries had religious calls they use drugs has been many traditional societies and all over the world up till this day yes so it's it's a problem what uh... yeah i think that's a measure of any society said abroad in the nineteen sixties as william bennett doesn't just absurd shows total historical multi albert bell battered order no better i'll tell you why your daughter sherry does he just a propaganda sir right wing and a lot like all the other ideas skies agenda he's he's looking at he's got his own agenda that he's pushing but he ought to know better because brook bill bennett and i were born the same place let's pick a new york right and bill bennett and bill bennett knows that there was a drug problem growing up in the nineteen forties nineteen fifties in brooklyn new york and that drugs boris alcohol why i grew up in the beirut section of brooklyn there were four bars on every block in third avenue fifth etc and they were churches are four fitting and the women went to the church's to pray that the men wouldn't drink pan and then went to the cars in the women's answer prayers whenever yasser so there was a drug problem it was called alcohol and it was legal and it was socially acceptable and the churches were certain churches were serving one to go with a little wafers for that during this each other carriers the so-called drug or alcohol problem didn't really surface intermediate sanction there in september of this year there was something like two hundred and sixty media stories on drugs a lot on network television and the new york times quiet was saddened brokers on the drug problem but there's there's signify that suddenly drugs as a number one problem bush makes a speech talking about the clan a war on drugs bennett's going all over the country talking about drugs wine al so i think that there you know i i i'm not gonna pooh-poohing the idea that there are fifty people don't use drugs thing that they are not destructive consequences it did for them using drugs i think that um... since sensed uh... people reagan came into office drugs have been uh... uh... are convenient whipping post i think that there's an ideological agenda here push new i think that in many ways uh... drug served as a a diversion from looking at other social problems i mean as i said before people don't use drugs accidentally if you look at their history um... the people that come to see me often are coming from life situations which unbearable i deal with probably ninety percent of the client's i've seen my work are uh... or minority women who've been referred from that child welfare agency in new york city because they have been reports are allegations that there you go use drugs and that in less than a agree to go to treatment or at least submit to evaluation by me or people like me their children to be taken away and when you do the intake assessment when you do their personal history um... sometimes i look at them and i would i don't have a need wonder why they use drugs work what are some of the common doctors the drive people into drugs that you've experienced obviously poverty as one you're talking about people who were you talk about women who i have uh... by the time there twenty to twenty three years old three or four kids b didn't buy three or four different men who are who are themselves children are grown are broken homes there were no likelihood they were uh... physically often sexually abused uh... certainly emotionally neglected and abandoned uh... poverty poverty is the key are you just race i would imagine that always keeps people from getting jobs and well actually it is no doubt about it i mean these are people who thought a lot of opportunities in front of them when you find yourself in rituals with kids when you have any welfare hotel if you're pretty trapped and i guess to buy dubbed by some you know some some sort of temporary relief drugs can do that group brings no mistaking drugs deliver in the short term drugs are very powerful their their pain relieving they give people a sense of mastery to give people a sense of confidence give people a sense of power they're highly pleasurable they have long-term negative consequences but if you have to be really living in the immediate if the flies doesn't look well they were all down the road can you blame them jack before we get into some of the long-term negative consequences of drugs and what you've experienced in this regard can we talk a little bit about how drugs are also symptomatic of american tendency to find solutions to problems through commodities and other words the drugs we read about on television *** ka caroline et cetera are similar in some ways the bali and to tranquilizers sleeping pills osbourne by a number of other drawings that are used in this society simply to relieve pain pure and to give relief that are uh... legal sosa tendency in this society that advertise in the media and just the culture in general reinforces that if you want to solve your problems you take a drug is a commodity solution why you know to what extent i can add to that that's uh... it was not a question not i'd like to think about that someday there that people don't see anything wrong with this because of part of the culture i was i would say this that and no less then one of the fathers of our country the fellow who pay the phrase the pursuit of happiness as thomas jefferson you also pandit that the part of life is the avoidance of pain movement and and in fact i don't think we should be only talk about where anti-drug into war on drugs i think first portion understand the drugs that would but i have a beneficial role to play in society in our lives that's made our lives forced a bit longer liberalizing healthier wouldn't armed force would not be alive today without penicillin and antibiotics is new and and and aspirin and various other even more lap or drugs have kept a slight unseen emergency situations or salazar that's important to keep in mind a draw appears eddie any substance which is cycle active ah... which is uh... can change my router body but so what happens is and i think in a society that it gets society vincent's distress wouldn't society has lots of problems appear on where we are solutions don't appear on the horizon it's very tempting to look to substances there just a small away from eating so late but uh... there it's more than just a set of people in the media and name well we've been focusing on now is the to the poor people live in the ghettos who were trapped in there emotional pain and helplessness their articles about the the wheelers and dealers on wall street using *** there are plenty of alcoholics who make ah... gooden good living uh... now and uh... as we've seen that the *** sapiens been doing this at all classes for for a multimedia so wat is clear that well i went by i wouldn't but there's a fellow researcher and you from u_c_l_a_ near ron siegel who's just written a book well intoxication of the search for artificial paradise where his thesis is he first looks at the animal kingdom and then traded and traces it later intelligent human beings this this thesis is that its debt the desire for intoxication the changing consciousness is in fact it built into the species and uh... and as a drug kelso that's not a popular position solid but i mean that's a bit all i can say is that in your point poverty listen tunic anti-cancer drug problems david kennedy killed himself from an overdose of i believe *** robert kennedy was when he was on the staff of robert morgenthau came up in the prosecutor's office in in in newburgh new york was in fact uh... arrested for possession of *** met john belushi know you have uh... baseball stars you have athletes you have a movie stars he had kitty dukakis drinking rubbing alcohol because there was no blues left in the house actually obviously it's not just the function people's intake of of drugs not just the function of of poverty there all the stresses of life i mean they're stresses the stay at the top you talk about wall street i have friends of mine who work on wall street nobody gives page one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year unless she won't step over dead bodies in our culture tickets high stress it's it's fast lane it's very competitive it's a world would you never show you weaknesses to anyone it's a world of rugged individualists grueling predatory bruin predatory instincts that's not bad that takes pothole on the spiritual and emotional health and human being and that's no wonder i mean today they're using *** but historically wall street was always a place where people got wasted after work on alcohol now generally mix the two you know you take out the check the *** during the day to find the energy the relevant to deal with the fatigue issues demand that they have to really get to wired up and we see that you have a few drinks in order to float back down back down to earth shetlands that's focused on this question of uh... drug abuse granted that all societies in history of how cooper all drugs and other things to relieve pain to help people cope with stress and different uh... on problems and that's also a lot of drugs are useful three human uh... being when constitutes drug abuse and then let's get into some of the destructive effect of drugs as you see them okay we are as a as a person who works in the in the in the into helping profession rather than ah... uh... the police professional with the police law enforcement take the view that any use constitutes a bugle we don't lock would help we take the view that we look at the context of a person's life in sync touro when when act up and they'll see develops the universe has negative life consequences then it becomes abuse in our mind so that means we'll be looking at a person's um... emotional health their physical health their financial health how they're getting along with their families uh... going to work off their money that's that's essentially distinction between used to produce but also sightings as you say people of use drugs visit there's a h it there is a markedly different affect that *** has on a peruvian peasant who takes the coca leaf then begins to chew it first of all of its spread throughout the whole body and you end up getting about five percent of the potency of the drug it's longer acting it has a way of wanting to curtail stronger which is of course important in countries third world countries where people are starving or or malnourished in as a way to help the work and then you have to work brutally long hours but in our country with the modern technology available on the processing all the drug when you slot *** you go from five percent that there will be present at the eighty five percent of purity even better here if your idea is to get wasted isn't is not right of free basing *** which is smoking it or crack for when you getting ninety eight percent of the puri within five seconds our viewer ingestion goes right through the brain will and activates the pleasure centers of the brain and gives you a power packed twelve minutes where you are all in malformed which in terms of pleasure problem is around the thirteen fourteen fifteen minute and getting worse he stopped a few withdrawal symptoms that might be irritability my pizza onset of depression cravings even paranoia and what do you do well most people are getting out of five bucks a *** rocks and uh... intake another hit and so then they're on the cycle in there on the site of dependency and here's where becomes destructive for people's lives extremely december's some scenarios of lie has been destroyed or some other processes through which people are literally destroyed because of drug dependency i mean i don't know where to start my my mark mark mike my clients are are people who uh... who stories just just our own heartbreaking you know you have uh... the young woman who came to me rulers nineteen years old indonesian middle-class white women her fault usually child or farther and farther had passed away for heart attack when she was fourteen die from cancer long cancer when she was seventeen she was left the house she sold the house for holding twenty five thousand dollars and her boyfriend in the space of less than a year or two hundred five thousand dollars a *** when she came to to me for help i had to give five dollars takecare back home was even more dramatic i was told me last night we completely let the audience that we're talking last night in this story struck you guys was the time that uh... a mini wife came to came for help and uh... he was barefoot and she was wearing his a floppy shoes and i said or story here why why don't you have shoes while you were issues of suit well on the way over here wasn't she sold her her shoes for ten dollars so we could both getting hit a crack balcony that he speaks of desperation didn't that uh... really tells a story about when the lawyers cross between use and abuse and reacts to resolve of people people selling their babies pampers and doctors for for for money for drugs uh... because other people in the crime with clinton i i mean i'll give you another was able to give you an example or a woman who work here who have been a while but welfare hotel i mean this really told tells you to sort of a in june in june you have uh... of some of them iron drug dealers welfare approving the new york city welfare you get a check once oneself once a month and do you have to go to well uh... office to get it so during the month what would happen is if a if a drug dealer a welfare hotel there was a woman has is getting public assistance caretaker card include the card and he will give her drugs on credit on credit and when they come back when the time comes they both will grow at the turn of the month they were both go to the welfare welfare office to get the check she will be immediately turn over the money to him and of course would have charged her dog will because you're paying double like on the other on credit that's just out by sampling we could go on for hours talking about the stories the horror stories baseball's hall lives than are involved in getting money for drugs using drugs and then the aftermath of down dealing with the same cycle of anxiety depression its rocket is baseless as a full-time job being at that full-time job that's where destroys you like to do it was a complete lodgement single-minded obsession unkind to looking at somebody who gets up in the morning if you're *** addict you get up in the morning and within a very few hours you're starting to get cold chills sweats diarrhea and vomiting you've got to find some way to get the dole so first things you can find some way to get money if you're lucky to ho kal critical where are you going to do to get it then you can find something to cop door from and i hope it is good stuff we're not giving you some some garbage the cart then we gotta find assume about are clean set works because if you don't get a crusader works today you'll get aids in the bargain my works you mean hypodermic syringe mechanics syringe coker cotton settler you know you get the whole the holes dole works then you find a place the to be sure to dial which on the street looking for all that and then you get a couple hours of nirvana right and then we begin the cycle over again that's a full-time job an expensive i want to say what is the cost and i think a day for heroine or crack car well let's take a when there are people who survive on pompons fifty dollars a day heroic for the people use two one two thousand they were *** butt crack at five p eight to ten dollars a pop under people go on what is called in uh... in uh... in uh... in a subculture that i work with discrimination uh... mission here they'll say i guess is like george bush said ice it's beacuse my mission remember he said that on his always well iguana mission where sensual ebay a they just leave all they go to the crack house and they don't come up for air for two or three days and they'll go through six hundred two thousand dollars in debt two or three days now yes where they get the money anywhere any anyway anyway they can for women often the bargain is six betrayed betrayed sex for drugs in the bargain though they get more than just the high from the drug many of the men who frequent the crack houses in addition to smoking *** also or intravenous drug users very popular today he's the shoot *** and *** together scoffs people twice that well you see dot understand something about the pharmacology of the drug inspect on the body *** will his estimate when i'm very powerful stimulant and it will it excites the part of the brain very much of the pleasure center of the brain and you'll get very very high problem is with the height you get the hardier fall and what they discovered is by putting *** ends in a hypodermic to the sandwich they discovered that once you get way high up in a sort of cod released way the heroine begins the kicking in right after so you don't suffer which will affect you sort of parachute down to her in the into pillows other nice *** so that at the speed dialing the *** and *** gold go together wonderfully for a lot of these fellas that used to drugs that way two women come in thinking that liza guys don't use i_v_ drugs independent sex with them indo go back to their partners many of whom were unaware that they're using drugs log on to the crack house they transmitted to their *** partners they had babies they have aids and the babies will love to see kindergarten to what extent is this one of the main problems in the drug culture letters and specialty do you see much of this is this really formal tremendous ok tremendously everyday community should be absolutely applauded for what they've done they have really cut it down to his verbal virtually zero increase in the gay community yes you see people getting aids but these are people who were exposed to the virus long before the publicity that there was a connection between unsafe sex practices and and the h_i_v_ virus amongst the the intravenous drug use in the rose to drug culture there was almost no talking to them uh... we have to get tempted to the new york new york city board of health certain people a wait out into the intravenous drug abuse in community attempting to to get them to use protected sex if they're going to have sex and it's virtually impossible after remember these people uh... these people don't they'll have a warm horizons they'll think of life in terms of along horizon so up in a very resigned to defeat to the idea that life is going to be very short for them so to talk to them about safe sex and about not getting aids and not giving a set of people they've been a very difficult community to rage and that's why you see such an explosion of aids in the intravenous drug user community essentially that has been the bridge than heterosexual community because it's true the i_d_ drug users and their partners that it gets bigger heterosexual population weather just fatalistic the fact that uh... i mean they all should know by now that if they share needles or libelula get aids and yet they continue to do it they just uh... unlike you say this is the short term outlook and they say oh well but i think it would be in the community while you are exposed i think they basically take the view of the actor you know i've been shooting drugs uh... fraph for a four or five years of six years or three years of two years and um... i would have been exposed it's also one of my good worry about that you know this biz this b horse is already gone out born here so victor they don't have any way they basically i think they're thirty day review their view is that i might as well enjoy what little life of got left there are two drugs which cause more deaths than any of the illegal drugs and those are the legal drugs of uh... uh... cigarettes and tobacco products and alcohol can you give us an idea of the comparison of those two of the beverly illegal drugs as far as uh... yeah that suit you know that that's really interesting we're not going to high school i got talking high schools quite a bit and um... as spend more of our trip questions as i said what are the most popular drugs in the world of course that used to hearing about *** in and marijuana *** angel personnel as deep and inherently like unless they're usually their answers them by surprise right on the three most popular drugs in the world alcohol nicotine a caffeine they're very surprised personally don't think opposes drugs after all drugs are bad and water if their drugs when we do and selling them but you're right frank i think you're questioning sat we have a blind spot when it comes to make it to you now called the sculpture uh... i'm paul so people are also very surprised considering the attention is put on illegal drugs and how devastating and deadly they all are when they find out the statistics anywhere there's anywhere between four hundred and four hundred fifty thousand people die every year from alcohol nicotine related disease you know cancer heart disease and his team in the like but two years ago the statistics were totally less than sixty eight hundred people died totally from direct effects overwhelming illegal drugs in united states combined so that means that more people die in one week from alcohol nicotine related diseases in one year all the other illegal drugs combined so one might ask why is it that we have this double standard i think you have to look at but not only the politics we have to look at the economics here to looking at it mel t-ball team billion dollar industries of of cigarettes and alcohol with the great political life influx handles media influence medium glamorizes the usf of tobacco alcohol itself parts and socialize isn't on our sins in the news programs other drugs is so this is obviously a part of the source of the double standard neglected that this i'm not taking this drug council very glad that we we do that when i was and we do point the finger at nicotine alkyl uh... i'm just uh... you know i think it's extremely important are very dangerous i think we are as a society getting away from glamorizing cigarettes and you can see it today or the you're going to restaurants there's no smoking sections were playing you can't smoke i do applaud these tuesday's but the fact that matters is that we should understand partly or problem of focusing in on illegal drugs is that we forget that in walking what are your novel all of us body into the drug culture i think it i'd say it sometimes when i'll be talking to groups now we have a society it's basically are an addict addicts are us with you but of all of its only by basically singling alcan isolating illegal drug users that we've we don't understand how much and we have in common they have in common with the rest of us s somebody who drinks four five cups a day of coffee how they feel the morning if they don't get their cup of coffee and we're going to pull off at somebody's trying to give up smoking difficulties to give up smoking those people are addicted mark twain's famous line was resisted you'd rather do it gatlinburg tried giving up smoking he said yes thousands of talking to her husband well they former attorney at law attorney general surgeon general said that that is the most addictive uh... substance very very powerful very para powerful drug with the kidney continue on my point it isn't just the problem addiction is not just those things which we can just into our body a lot of people are now beginning to see addictions in a much broader context are beginning to see we're not only society that is drinking and driving ourselves to death but it's also a society that gambles i'm guessing listen we couldn't just go to eighty eight tonight what they need to know i don't know comics anonymous of *** anonymous we could go to get wasn't honest female actually if you have people before you who are gambling we asked them why they gamble the real gamble will tell you unbearable for the money idea before the action boys get loose a agents napa iacocca's that was a compulsive gambler i was once a guy that at twenty one years of age i'd come out of a card game f_d_r_ blue with a bunch of no-fat building cigar smoking bad breath guys until eleven o'clock in the morning in a beautiful spring day playing cards although i don't know what i'd say when's the next game he had a complete cook it's a hooks into me idea because i love the juice i would love that feeling of exhilaration in power values to play in gambling it was wonderful because i always feel a sense of mastery one-on-one but always had the ability to say i had bad luck when i lost so was a kind of convenient out but i love gambling gambling scandals in italy it was very much addiction and it was interdiction would suit my needs for excitement i'm ideas from my own profile i mean excitement junkie you're a lot of people exile island fries fill the hole in my life here this is what needs to let that one in society drives people to gambling to addiction the drought style called a little bit different the fruits of programming and so it's still the other server doubt about it elicit something lacking in society is an emptiness alcohol in society referred to as i said to people sometimes i say to people listen the next time you go to the refrigerator late at night i want you to how will you take inventory are you going because you're hungry or or used are you looking for some the because your mhm angry lonely or tired a lot of people are not looking to feed a hungry stomachs wahan bahar looks a lot of people aboard in their everything they're lonely tire in your stressed out there fatigue and we look for comfort and consolation refrigerator how many of us have and fell better i don't like icon roy sometimes dealing with these acts all day long and i have to walk past the pizza place actually i found out i don't have to look past it now and that's why i'm not going to the pizza place wedding carlton b like jack carl unlimited you feel better but you know for a while it does make me feel better so i was opting for working people offer phone people off for gambling they were also a society that berlin addiction if people always applaud and that's workaholics call somebody and there are several popular but think again about op-ed piece of the price factor the matter is people who work in themselves to death people gambling people overeating less that phrase shop you drop when the going gets tough tough go shopping how do you think that's about it's about your point up so now we are trying to fill up we are sasakawa society we've taken distraction to a high or now will be trying to distract ourselves from i think drugs in these addictions fulfill legitimate needs of our society which our society frustrates i think we have a mean four commuting which in a very individualistic azeri every man for himself dog-eat-dog araceli society is not fulfilled i think we have a need for community i think we have a need to have a sense of belonging many of us don't come from families where we had a chance the belong videos rossello deeply wounded from what happened to us or fairly settings it's a horrible whoever story so no one's a story about dysfunctional families i mean i was out i'm a radical i grew up went to college i've ever heard about a dysfunctional family but look at a dysfunctional family i thought was an alcoholic where does that mean was he assembled them barry bonds absolutely not he took care of business in fact many drink he was a sort of happy-go-lucky guy problem is when you call them on a rolling into the drunk he mused about his explosive and unpredictable as you could ever get inist children i can remember like when you come through the door we all stand like mice because you had no idea what what was good face you so i grew up in a very chaotic environment a very unpredictable while at the very very explosive moment where there was a lot of physical abuse there was a lot of yelling and screaming and arguing in fact i like to tell people when i get to talking about this sort of thing it's not pleasurable but there were two emotions in my house there was really hard anger and ice-cold attachment coldness in fact i can remember still dream all those on the oldest of five children to remember all of us retreating into the television set to watch eyes bosnian harriet leave it to be renewed donna reed show in thinking how come our family is not like this how come dad doesn't act like this and how come on the same like this and i thought with the clintons children use all of our own ruble that you think something's wrong with me why doesn't that love me you know the way you know aussie love stephen ricky it was uh... the police cars at this point mylife forty years of age i have no rancor bitterness towards my dad my dad himself is the child of to alcoholics both of my grandparents' rockwall x he had been physically abused as a child he only passed on what you know we've always known that alcoholism and drug abuse run in families it certainly is taking a devastating toll on my family i said on the oldest of five children one of my brothers growing up in that kind of of the environment were all of the emotional baggage it it isn't being essentially a of victim of almost wartime conditions when we talk about battered children to really talk about the same syndrome as vietnam veterans post-traumatic stress disorder it's uh... it could lead you a sense of emptiness that leaves you always tense europe you always feeling inside the there's always feelings of failure this extreme feelings of low self esteem well to get that one of my brothers first got into marijuana and later at seventeen graham sixteen herself into *** who's a *** addict for eleven years as was his wife and uh... removed uh... there lived a horror story of an existence today are told that they had two children their children were taken away the one st parent student they were very he lived in the streets after a while even families are supportive basically have to cut you lose because the colon everybody down and we know when they steal the furniture for the third time would come home to find out sandy we know in a row when we do everything they can defeat their habits eventually have to cut them loose my brother that life and his wife live a life for eleven years came home one day and said i wanted to know what i'm gonna get myself in a methadone program methadone in one of them six months was very *** his liver yet had hepatitis you get out the types of course before you can get aids used to get appetizers sharing dirty needles looked like it so much worse m_g_m_ he got a method i mean it was bent on his liberty starts picking up lets you got off in about six months ago because he got out of the neighborhood through the neighborhood influences were more difficult some of the south jersey his wife of the south jersey raising their kids they bought a house together kids and i think it's back in the white house today when we were together they beat the habit my brother was drug-free for five years he was healthy six foot two hundred and eighty five pounds a beautiful man he was talking about early retirement and i are raising the sixty thousand dollars is a copy of the last year of his life the story i have to tell us he comes home one day from work and um... he says uh... i don't have time to go live into into a seat so he went to bed thinking you'd be better the next morning he got up to me he didn't need to come to a hospital beaded skin on his brain they found we had five tumors are his brain it took a specimen of one of the tumors he had a lesions in on the brain in the specimen showed he had aids toxoplasmosis which is the neurological disorder that you sometimes get when you have aids so finally showed up after all those years after five years of being drug-free had been a sitting silently incubating like a time bomb ticking away in the system and i watch my beautiful brother his painful to me to talk about it he was six to one hundred eighty five pounds a ten-month siege with the raise seventy five thousand dot and his wife welcome she's still alive she's alive uh... she is inside the positive she says full-blown symptoms but our understanding of the disease now frank is a lot is a lot better and she's been being kept alive with a_z_t_ new number of other drugs sitter it keep it alive but uh... she's lost a lot of weight and she's a courageous gal good mother to the kids but what about your other siblings he said well management it's not where they are waiting to hear slater farewell i'd say they were that is adversely affected you get i had another brother i say had because uh... the store that my family album is in black voters alm i love the brotherhood presented very differently you can present themselves american success story often happens when you come from dysfunctional troubled families you're driven to succeed bilbao and i in many ways that convince other people that you wrote something and to deal with your own feelings of self worth and a failure when he was driven to succeed he was very good he went to an early catholic high school in staten island new york and i went to here anyway do you play football when awaiting to your university liquid from some football there he came back he took the family business that was making a million dollars a year in may two to three million dollar your business your dad's your dad's will dad's business took a different million dollars a year he got a brand new bmw he i don't our new house he spent more on clothes in one month and you and i would spend in five years final because i want so american express before one month seven thousand dollars just close and spend that much maligned uh... who are good for you tonight um... so he he met with my brother wasn't uh... what what sobibor called massive cover up to deal with this test these feelings inside a flow self-worth he wanted to do is best that convince other people it was a success and on the outside he looks like an extreme success but on the inside he was a who was at scheduling angry depressed helpless ten-year-old worried about whether his father was going to be done he never dealt with that emotional baggage you never had gotten to the bottom of that stuff and he has to run he just like to take the press release them what to do exciting things that he and i had that she had that characteristic were excitement junkies right heat he made me look like a pica i mean i gained more than i did a few things but he really was we're talking major league he would uh... skydiving led to japan airplanes heat-driven motorcycles eighteen ninety miles an hour he'd limbo and i mean give a big-time once watched him remember now it's a three million dollar business so you can afford to do this at least a while he wins best fifty thousand dollars on the superbowl and i was with them in the room within twenty was you bet you made that and i watched the game with him he lost a bet he never changed the expression on his face my brother billy you can always maintain a cool exterior putting up i'm okay but you're the only way you can do that was a little help from our friends in this case used to take values like six eight ten a day uh... he's taken my guests like lifesavers i guess begin they were lifesavers and he thought of the time and that helped write mellow him out cuisines obviously under a lot of tension and only gives you a drink maybe a court have distortion of after would be about his nights consumption in one night he was drinking with his friends collapse at the bar they said well he's drunk them sleep it off to the back seat of the car they put him in the back seat of car left in your own to sleep it off sobering leon forts and left him with his head back the body is a magnificent britain engineer with the baghdad's into rosewood has a poison and wants to get rid of it with his head back like this in obviously was unconscious he threw up and they had no place to go and literally drove his own bombing yes fixing the choke to death so in space of six months are lost to younger brothers at baroda both very sad with this shows that drug abuse is not focused on the poverty-stricken and the people and and buyer consequences uh... your emotional nepal a book on the elmo tional abortion regret is that it is is an equal opportunity destroyer here let me let you know five people in their you'll find people in the highest ash alonso of uh... of of government in politics in the economy often often abandoned or neglected children after all they're very driven people they're people who work long sixty seventy eighty hour weeks as i talked about before work all ism sounds fine except you're neglecting somebody you're neglecting your spouse you neglecting their children in many ways you neglecting yourself if we are to grow as many cited beings we have to do more than just be single-mindedly obsess with work or any other addiction which happens in the addictive process as i said at the beginning of the program of on the battlefield medic as a battlefield medic i have to help people with the close of in front of me who come into my office rupali and so i have to help them and try to get them into treatment try to get them into therapy tried it try to help their children get into day care i do i care by always know that basically i'm fighting a losing battle i'd just don't have enough resources that my disposal also know that i'm also helping people where the damages for the most part already done to me we have another role and it's a rule that most people the drug treatment we're all in fact most social workers reticent to play and that's really was a social and political activist because we have to be thinking about how to read will you be how we changed social arrangements so that we don't have people using these kinds of drugs to search it is did destructive effect on your lights and to me the drug issue as radical implications for the rest of society from top to bottom you're talking about poverty talking about a redistribution of income if you're talking about loneliness you talking about creating institutions where people can feel a sense of belonging remember everyone out of every five americans united states movie every year we really are a rootless unconnected people it's really a continuation of the great migrations from europe where we came left our families left our communities came to america and brought into our go west young men ruthlessness i think that's played a tremendous cost i think we are you know as david rees monroe in nineteen sixty along the crowd horoscopes later wrote in nineteen seventies the pursuit of loneliness i think were a lonely people we often find solace we also in in drugs and other ethnic addictions those stories make me think that there's a lot more involved in solving the drug problem then just say no as we mentioned reagan uh... would have adjusted lock 'em up from the jail course broyard or send a boot camp like they're talking about here shock incarceration camps um... locking people up action lock 'em up fevers is is really sweeping the country right now they're talking about locking up drug users not just dealers but drug users evening casually issue and in fact i mean we already have uh... most people probably are aware that we already have are more people walk highest percentage of people of our population lockup then any other country in the world other than south africa and there are some southern states i think you're for southern states at the higher per capita locker parade in south africa you know i'm not surprised so we already are jails already full and that we know in places like new york you spend fifty thousand dollars to put people person in jail and yet we will not spend we will not spend the money necessary to have good day care systems good family therapy you talk about thirty doug i'll talk about just drug treatment oddly people every day who come to me and say i'm ready to give it up i had enough and you know in this country we have drug treatment but it's a class system there over five thousand treatment centers in united states at a private treatment centers the spending that's cost anywhere from five hundred two thousand dollars a day now you know the well-heeled we better have in major medical wrap-around insurance to be able to put those treatment centers that excludes people on medicaid almost thirty seven million americans who do not have who are working americans who cannot afford how have private health insurance and i are eligible for medicaid they are locked out of our treatment centers you're locked out well for some you don't have a drug problem east at least at your own up to four nafta that rose so so will i get people all the time we want help and i have to tell them if they have medicaid well on the nafta perch on a waiting list for two to three months to get you into tip into a long-term residents did you write orson somebody's using drugs that we are ready to write they're coming in you put them back on the street if their first of all using needles you got a chance to go to show you what so many of the greatest diverted our spouse they're gonna give it to a baby-boomer will affect is tremendous we need to be giving people treatment on demand in england but we're going to cost saver but the problem in our country is is that why would we pro acts serb-held when i'm not willing to give the poor help reagan was always talking about giving the deserving poor well everybody in our society does not seem alex is deserving the as deserving poor that most people think of addiction and drug use as a self-inflicted wound they have only themselves to believe i mean i have a close relative any law who tells me she knows that she herself is that that child of an alcoholic her father ran away from a large family when she was a small child but your conscience of you know jack i just don't buy your argument about these acts you know you just always crying a blue streak about these addicts i got no sympathy for them everybody arrives has crosses to bear you don't have to use drugs and i think that's the position most people believe that if if you want to give up trends in just a matter of true grit it's just a matter of you know pulling up there was an emotional bootstraps and in britain to it that i think it's a lot and i think it's a lot more deeper than that we need people writing health and services and leave the country are particularly hard hearted when it comes to drugs i'll give you an example when asp anyway about the spent eight point eight billion dollars in north were on drugs seventy percent of values for law enforcement only thirty percent of it whisper prevention and treatment and even that a lot of the whole goto bureaucracies or two programs and in fact they were not down to the streets to really help the people there i don't think i will i work in a drug treatment agency and i can tell you drug treatment is important but i will also tell you it that but focusing on treatment is in fact closing the barn door after the horse is gone we need to be thinking about effective prevention an effective prevention used to be looking at what is the dynamics in the society which is producing pete that's so much to stress that people feel the need to use drugs in the first place weirder things i did not talk about is that we talk about drugs we don't we were not aware of terrorized people who use drugs on runway mentally ill um... a psychiatrist danielle data is serving a few years ago seven hundred and fifty acts in at seven fifty ice they found a eighty five percent of them we're either schizophrenics borderline schizophrenics manic-depressive sporty suffered heavy depressive disorders they worked or had panic disorders or exotic disorders so many ways that taking up substances was an attempt to self-medicate the symptoms because we don't really have a great for these people to do you know with their problems when held after rabin therapy is certainly a rich man's sport in this country you go out and you try to get a therapist outside of the university of texas where mike you will get one of the student union uh... the hospital there and you don't know if you're not to be able to put it it's fifty sixty two d ninety dollars a prowl into group therapy can just go once a week ago up to three times a week who can afford it so it's a classic baron treatment center we have you're also not looking at the root causes of the addiction in the first place well that uh... if things from of what you're saying that uh... there are basically three reasons we because the people take drugs ones for excitement like you say the others for escape and the third is to lessen emotional pain you flip those upside down and say spotlights a societal the total societal disorder where why do people need excitement or most all good everybody's lives boring as there were quite boring as their family life morning and holiday skipping from why do they need to skate and then the paint what causes the pain that people are trying to escape or frank you were a radical u and that's exactly what they would we talked about before is that in fact drugs in some measure legitimate needs of people have let me talk about this you know you listen to people like bill bennett say well this is a hedonistic society this is a pleasure or reacted society this is a do your own thing society frankly this is a society which in fact has its nose to the grindstone we now have families where dash two b two paychecks everybody's out working everybody is goal oriented it's out you know like the commercial says word absolutely positively has to be there overnight this is a production oriented society value work work work i'm really get pleasure actually we deprives uniform of commodities commodities in the former foes uniforms of things that shock part of our passover spectator culture and why would passive customers come home deadbeat ras dragon from a day's work and about the only energy we have left is to put ourselves into the easy chair buffing up on the hassidic get the remote control and so it was one of the burned to a good mood and take that i did that's pleasure i don't think that's player buyerzone with a bear regular daily with some other means to distract ourselves we're not a society that is a little encourages pleasure i think were in fact the society but still has a good deal of a puritan ethic or in my sense that i am andres catholic and was always liked most about feeling good he's being captured not really not lifestyle is not doing a good jack it sounds to me like we're talking about our strike in the u_s_a_ that we need a lot of social restructuring and social change in our society we need a new set on values a new set of social institutions social relations there it really does competitive stress society the social darwinism that's the survival of the fittest were if you don't make it there's really no institutions no safety net no hell to take care of you it's this individualism gone berserk in a mock in our society that's really at the bottom of this drug problem and if we don't star change in attitude towards values towards work towards everything as well as our institutions we're not going to really be able to deal with this uh... drug problem begin dealing with the drug problem we need to talk about new drug treatment programs we meet our programs out there that will help addicts get off the street that will help people deal with drug problems that to me it sounds like this also involves psychiatric treatment counseling as well as just something programs writing about the donner whatever education to get people off of uh... drugs will clearly if you were if you see drugs is symptomatic then you look what the problem is and for me the problem is www and it's very easy to get somebody off the drugs he's been in a five day detox or attend a detox and nobody is now clear the drug although it's really a medical treatments all your medical treatment in fact is only doing a symptomatic level when you put them back in an environment an environment where theory and opportunity their environment where they have lots of stress or environment which is not has become really have not been able to address a lot of the underlying emotional difficulties they hacked then you're going to relax they're going to go back and so you have to begin thinking about this tissue much more holistic kind of way and much more populistic kind of way than you find policymakers in washington with very easy sloganeering is about the war on drugs determined to rebuild the cities it seems to me that the drug cultures are precisely that its whole urban ghettos whole subcultures where there is nothing to drug use everywhere you looked until you eliminate the drugs subcultures you're going to have literally millions of people soprano going on here this is the part problem of the part of the underclass we uh... executed it's at freeze that's developed in the last eighteen years that used to be from our class perspective you had you know you had put the ruling class and then yeah the working class and then we have american sociology did like the concept of a ruling class so they developed a are companies that there's a welders there's a new lease and then there's the middle class and then math basically all of us a middle-class but the fact is we now have a uh... a group of people who were a lot in going nowhere mate millions of people are going well where were you planning to anything you can really have their life prospects are very dim and and as a and as a political system we've given up on these people i mean the conservatives never you never really um... had much hope for them edward benfield a a conservative urban the organist stover knowledges said years ago though we should think of the city as a as a as a as a sandbox basically that's right the city's off let's understand that that basically decadent we have not heard nothing we can do for these people the hopelessly pathologically degenerate anyway yes he said to kind of cordon off the cities to keep the people and and import toys like a sandbox toys i_v_ drugs and things like this into the cities keep the people spaced out or occupied and don't let 'em out and that weight you they witnessed infect the rest of fighting you would have to do anything more about this was and that's the it looks like this is kind of what is happening that was part of his fingers it's not just the conservatives beginning around in the nineteen seventies with with the juke jimmy carter when he began talking about government of limits on government we would have to lower our expectations he began saying things like you cannot expect government to solve our problems debbie can a sort of new york liberalism acidophilus fiscal conservative moves on the part of all the liberals that said whistle we'd love to solve all problems in the world but we can't throw money at every problem and so even liberals there's no consensus today as that once we gave lip service to during the johnson administration of the great society to addressing these problems we basically written these people off and that we actually went into more for the time when they cannot help themselves 'cause we're running shoes with that no one addresses is a lot of these disco underclass of people have been rendered technologically obsolete their labor is now we don't get because i've looked at my irish grandfather did when he came from europe in the two of the century was to go down to the docs and in on the west side of new york and to do it they use the called don t labor and you always are the irish to do don t aces and he wants to persuade opus lenders brower newsbon n in his back dubbed himself some kind of a life today dot shop doesn't exist for people it's been replaced those kind of manufacturing hard hard labor jobs and replaced by machinery who had been sent abroad to cheap labor markets you know i have a core of twenty to twenty five percent of the population we literally had no meaningful well-paying work force the only thing they have only prospects than in front of them is flipping burgers at wendy's which you can you can live on those uh... salaries you can live on the salaries and then one of the reasons why we're talking about drugs and why people use drugs but was elected as a clinic all kind of drugs today in new york city there are sections of new york city that are coming back to life because why because the drug money gets infusing the renaissance parts of the east new york in queens with the jamaicans and the rest of them the rest of the drug gangs park pouring that money back into the community actually nixon and the republicans finally got black capitalism but now it's in the form of the drug economy uh... on the other hand his other calls parts of the city that are just uh... destroyed yes where the crime the crack houses that makes it impossible as a living in a habitat an impossible to exclude that drug culture alicia literally live it indicated how can you leave male who has the who has the dollars to leave it i don't want blacks a lot of the blacks that i treat in as a drug counselor are making decision to leave and go back south uh... that's about the only thing to some of them have uh... some of their role is down at the corner is oversold earlier patterns exactly don't take a look for opportunities now they go back opportunity to have to live because new york city in the other urban ghettos just are really uninhabitable at this point waved we've been talking about a lot of things we don't talk about leaving the crime what it's like to live in these war zones where people are getting people getting innocent people are doing the right dot he's getting towards these terra four is that are happening mini-series teenage death rates are just incredible read several articles in the times about this jack one thing we haven't talked about here is the issue of drugs and social control it seems that obviously that wants uncertain labor force is obsolete technologically the society doesn't really care about them so dry it's become a method of social control to keep the underclass doubt dekhi ta supplied a potentially interested force the nineteen sixties was precisely in the urban ghettos who had black sporter returns chicago's people are different racism origins were a radical political force you don't see this anymore the drug culture as rock as has destroyed the radical political subculture the makes one think that they may be people different groups in our society maybe using drugs as instruments of social control we are not the first to bring that up uh... in fact uh... malcolm x_ lacking was a ruler uh... i so i sort take just recently with him saying that nineteen sixty four just before his assassinating sixty five were you saying that uh... you know with more on the planes it's widely it's bringing the ceiling it's a way for us to be chilled out it's a way for us to be pacified it's a way for our people to be market ties i don't know if there's any conscious cobol conspiratorial cleek at top that is sort of crafty enough to divine who sell pretty malevolent uh... technique of social control but it certainly ready or not it's its by design it certainly works out that way and a lot of people are threatened by people who say that uh... during urban riots in the sixties and seventies but suddenly there was an enormous infusion of drugs from the outside to cool off about had to be a something that was planned and control but i think it is frank items i don't see it is that i'd think that there's so much money at stake when it comes to drugs that unjust think back to a circle example separate or the cop in new york tried to be an honest cop right there's so much drug money floating around into the sixties and seventies bag basically everybody can get bought off everybody can get a piece of the action so it may look at the fact that that everyone is approving of it in that at the top is basically calling the shots the people of top quality shots but it really is that there's so much money that almost nobody is immune to do it being brought off in bright and so it looks like well the whole communities getting infested who's there to do the job who's been at the stop it from coming in the police can be bought he's kind of dollars they're talking about a lot of money projected that the facts of the matter are that uh... one it's been tolerated for several decades every drug use in the ghettos and other parts united states have been tolerated despite the war on drugs that mix n reagan-bush another right winners of the *** they really haven't done anything they have heard you like to get the all that but let's talk about this or a now what would you like to know that would you like them to start locking people up that mixing bowl all those the point is they haven't done the things that were talking about the weather the origin of the drug problem right that it's not really ghetto life uh... but i'd say you have a different ideology their difference takes their different to have different gender that privilege to protect they have their power to protect there's all ideologies built into america that if you know if you can make it you can make it on your own even if you growing come up in the worst of circumstances to hard-working ambition you could rise up on your own bootstraps i mean this is not a culture of it so it looks out for the week is not a culture that you know shorts too many tears about the poor i mean i'm not surprised are not surprised i i'm not surprised that they're not looking into arrangements social arrangements which they see as part of the uh... nature i don't think that uh... don't think that this class suppression they think this is life at is their life is with us in this losers we're sorry but some people have to move started going up it was that i think it's important to see that really the war on drugs is declared by bush and all the right wing solutions to the drug problems are simply soon assunto solutions that really count work and don't work let's take the um... project of day drive to the source we hear a lot about columbia *** cartel we talked about using u_s_ troops there without the colombian south america and destroy drugs at the uh... source why do you think this is a pseudo solution to it really sort of a smoke screen all over the whole usually my mind you know i would think it was a simple solution how do you know that i don't think it's a terrific idea a lot because of the cuts are those who fought for what they're cutting back on well actually i don't think it's much of the solution i think in fact um... its there's a tendency on the part of american culture always look for outside agitators to blame always look for uh... ektu external lies the problem think of uh... some some bad apples in the battle moods american system is basically a good battle we've got a few bad apples and we'll get rid of the bad apples we've got a basically good circa institutional arrangements here so it's easy to blame you know the drug cartel in general noriega and the contras and *** production just as we blame the turks nixon blame the turks in turkey further *** production or the cambodians and laotians in the ties for the golden triangle production back in the sixties and seventies i think really pitched diversionary because five years from now maybe even two years from now we will not be talking about *** *** will be passe like good old american know-how and technology we have now replacing natural products we've synthetic products the markets abroad the drugs of the future of going to be synthetic mandate mating clandestine and secret laboratories high school chemist i'm going to be able to make money i see it now is of drugs like ice in ecstasy and crank these overall synthetic drugs much more powerful in many ways much more deadly then the natural products so it again might might argue means weiqi focusing upon noriega and the car insurance and the drug cartels the realities what is it about american culture leads us all right to want to use drugs i think there's a very important factor here and that is that you were talking about that reagan and bush and and you're right wingers welling jimmy carter this was a very important for them to keep this drug thing going as the big study group and california few years ago where they police fall over the country they said hey we don't want to eliminate crime because then we'd be out of a job so we gotta keep enough of this going to keep i'd just like uh... levi's qualitative one eliminate vice city town they wouldn't have anything to do they'd be out of a job so you gotta keep it going but the people they uh... reagan's in the bushes of the world date we want to use this so-called war on drugs and want to stop it raa bush was in charge of interdiction of drugs spent billions of dollars that during the reagan administration and drug importation is only increased but you know what you think they're using the drug war on drugs too curtail civil liberties of ordinary people or maybe just casual users they also are using it as a method of of mucking around and the third world i noticed that uh... the president of columbia planned uh... the american sent uh... different types of military armaments down there to help fight against a colombian drug cartels he said hey wait a minute this isn't the type of equipment we need to fight the drug cartels but it's perfect if you want to use it against the uh... the it uh... left-winger insurgent guerrillas and the same thing i noticed improved to levy a one million americans to go down there advisors there down there under the supposedly a fight drugs but what if they don't they're not fighting the drug lords and all thereafter the left-wing guerrillas who are trying to overthrow the government to what say you know forces are there a lot of agendas and excuses that they've got to keep this drug war going or something i like about alternative use never s leading questions on the show nafta after i got out of another leading question for you a lot of the liberals and libertarians in response to this right wing war on drugs the races repressive of our civil liberties and has extended interventionist foreign policy they say had it was just legalizing will get rid of organized crime and the criminalization of drugs we can solve the present problem withers conserve people in prison the customs you said earlier fifty thousand dollars a day for the state to take out what i would just decriminalize drugs of some people on a destroy themselves okay we can use some of the money from the profits from drugs for rehabilitation programs for other people don't want to get off road rides what's wrong with this libertarian legalization um... aren't only they also say that the price will go down on drugs and therefore that the the addicts uh... the people who use them won't have to go up uh... on mother's day uh... beat up on that the uh... ladies that little old ladies who are getting their welfare checks or there or social security checks they won't have to *** themselves in order to get money because the price will be lower for all the problems are going to be solved by legalization right so i think what yourself with legalization in on the face of its it's a fairly attractive in it's a very tightly reasoned article of of places uh... i think what you'll do as you probably have it decreased in property crimes which of course if you have properties always very people understood doing if you have property and and milton friedman and william f_ buckley a number of conservatives said put this fluid as a means to do with the drug problem but i'm not talking about the drug from there we were talking about the crime problem well that's not properly i mean people get mugged on the streets uh... well yes i feel that's the way myself up if you have a lot and i think i i think that's i think that's the that's the carter i think that's the cover story i really think that these uh... from a practical standpoint legalization is a complete mess let me just let me just pose it to you we have laws now in this country every state that says if you're a bartender you cannot serve a inebriated or intoxicated person in fact in places like new york you have legal liability which says the few if you've said that we need a few surgeon intoxicated person that did that last week and that person goes out that has an accident you are responsible for the damages you can be sued now i would ask you if you are typically would it have state-supported drug clinics actually state-supported crack houses and somebody came in in one or two at what point would you tell them that they had enough wasn't all that you've had enough he cannot anymore do you know it's like to tell somebody who's who's who's been using *** or crack you've had enough enough to have any more first though we're going to have to have cops right here christine restrains person he goes nuts in says i want more you're not going to stop me but let's say that he has and that you give me now was worth the drugs but two hours worth of drugs for three hours worth of drugs how about the fact that we know that one one single use of *** can cause a heart attack as it did for len bias the basketball star was to who was drafted by the boston celtics' died right out one single used *** he's a helping hand special now we're learning about *** and block it how it interrupts blood flow to the heart are you going to give people enough drugs to let them kill themselves if they kill themselves which is that going to be responsible who's going to be held responsible when they do that are you going to allow pregnant women to get drugs enemy state-supported crack houses or drug gangs cause we know what the effects of on the fetus of drugs we know that a single use of of *** can stroke a fetus content can break the press center or for any can bleed to death in the womb will allow pregnant women to have it everyone enjoy going to stop people from going in visibility fourteen sixteen eighteen twenty-one for those people you don't allow linking a state-supported crack houses legalized drug dennis reckoning colville go to a black market the black market will still exist for the youth for pregnant women for those people who don't belong to it to have any more than their they're they're they're day their relation i think it's a complete folly and i think of one u_s_ political people i'm not just the drug kills launch the lunar political hack we should understand that this is basically has an agenda it's part of the final solution to read underclass the legalization legalization you don't want to keepin under uk a chemical yoke for the rest of their natural wives and those lives will be much shorter and by the way when you talk about crime will be good down having grown up as a child of an alcoholic i know that the kind of devastation that that a person under the influence can do to children onto love ones around them what do you think these people are going getting high at crack at kent state security crack houses what do you do when they go on to their families and loved ones can you imagine what what life is going to be like driving in cars it's bad enough to fifty thousand people get killed on the highways from from drugs what is life going to be like when you know that the dying guy who was driving along side you in the next lane has just come out of our out of a crack house i think life will be much more explosive much more dangerous much worse i don't want to see people have uh... much more accessible hassle-free drugs i think we just need to deal with root causes and legalization doesn't do with would cost legalization just use with the symptom they want tribes will give the more drugs just lead us a while if you want to kill yourself go right ahead none of our business jack criminalization hasn't worked together as interesting plus as we talked about that uh... very first of the program a long time ago *** sapien and other animals abuse cycle that's uh... active substances ever since they've been in existence so you have a contradiction here do you not about how you how are you going to prohibit on one hand criminalized something which seems to be inherent andy human species the desire for some type of psychoactive experience deep desire i think it human beings have is a desire for for pleasure desire for four belonging a desire for meaning and purpose in their life the desire to be connected to other human beings and meaningful way a desired to maybe have and out of mind experience u_s_ to experience pleasure excitement sure these folks attend school we have other means for people to to reduce tension his native is meditation as all kinds of this this massage this relax ation devices we can be teaching people we can be building into the culture means other than chemical to help people do with their emotional problems i don't think that yes grimacing she hasn't worked at some of the strongest pieces of the link though those who by the full legalization is the criminalization doesn't work i'm absolutely degree and it doesn't work but legalization only make things worse chuckling about uh... making a distinction between those drugs that are known to be destructive and harmful tonight i say *** in the latest surveys on *** do indicate they can bring heart attacks about crack we know it's addictive and destructive which is a *** derivative that we are so it is a society what drugs are definitely harmful or destructive but it's ok ok *** crack et cetera alcohol so i'll call the serious ugly destructive why several of our listen we're left with is not a problem unless you went about as rude legalization is that you could hillary could might be able to technically legalize *** because a *** addict could uh... my tear off two or three times a day but a *** addict kids were off six times an hour but is this a solution legalize marijuana legalize even *** some of these other nutella kothi synthetics that um... may delight destructive in the same way that uh... crack *** et cetera are so you provide some closure of all anxiety reducing experiences for people when we are disappointing prescribed drugs in our society mean doctors prescribe drugs i mean pharmaceutical houses of the biggest pushes of drugs in the united states i mean we have a commercial it says for new print i think it says when you haven't got time for the pain cause marijuana and he'll say more destructive than alcohol tobacco or *** or some of the chemical drugs or sorrow over the counter one example throughout examples group of people that that i know who who have who use mail marijuana have been truly that they definitely have no memory loss they definitely have short term memory loss and underscores what i would in fact i thank you webfep you know you're a field trip mclaughlin sos memory loss they really do they believe those issues of sterility uh... they think it may be changed to me they're really cute they pay hypothesize that there may be changing the genetic structure for marijuana i think the jury is throughout the body using marijuana if i had to rank or order in terms of danger no marijuana doesn't break it in fact when i go out into the high schools i can tell the kids that will drugs are harmful to a drug czar destructive i think i'm doing a disservice i have to be make distinctions if they're going to use drugs for some drugs are a lot worse than others there some drugs are a lot more ste destructive than others think attorney legalization you're not willing to say the any of the drug laws should be treated as you see it more as a societal problem of getting into the sources that causes appropriately clearly feeding a habit you're not really getting to the source and by the way we are interested as radicals included sizing people in getting an active in being involved in their community i can tell you from personal experience the drugs is not empowering it cripples people drugs does not build community it destroys community drugs is not something that we as people who are thinking about pulling broader political change should be advocating because we would really serves to do is basically market price people incidence tenants accepting road briefings are as the do you think that we should re criminalize a use of alcohol and make the use of tobacco products illegal listen if i had my druthers if i had my druthers uh... people wouldn't drink but see eye-to-eye i'd have to make a distinction there obviously people who can integrate alcohol o couple of drinks or so into their life and it does not have destructive negative consequences leaders say the same thing about taking a couple of uh... pups of marijuana or maybe a piles of *** well i suppose you can in fact there are people who use *** that way uh... icon but the profile a person that i laid out to you people who've come from highly dysfunctional families who really never get to feel good except when they use chemicals those people are very vulnerable i mean if you're talking about people in real life have assets the flew back on it i mean just financial assets but they have supported family loving friends they have a decent job they have a nice place to live sure big-name factory guests technically possible they could have drugs they can integrate into their lives something they might do once in awhile recreational if you have people who have nothing else to report in their life except drugs as a means to feel good to feel better at least temporarily that's a power release powerful seductive ideas image and yet is laws now on the way they're using these laws they want to throw all of these people and uh... both groups the casual user they're not doing i don't think there's always or i i'm glad to know i'd been are very observant all of the policy-making drug making policy in the last few years there has been a right wing agenda basically to use budget use drugs for pretty much lock it up about about a third of the population of because some of these guys at their way we're talking about for awhile shooting down planes that they suspected of carrying carrying drugs drug smuggling they were talking about locking up first-time users they were talking about the death penalty for pushers making no distinction between most users are oftentimes dealers if the only way to cut down on their overhead they were talking about throwing uh... families abusers out of federal housing but would you might be a a mother raising six kids in your teenage son uses dot sells drugs tennis court the whole family get so wrapped up in at a federal housing that was jack kemp's idea well that didn't go through the congress but first we shouldn't be sort of clumsy about the way we talk about politics in washington there are people in washington who are fighting a civil libertarian position who are basically trying to see drugs in a broader context are trying to get treatment for alex are trying to deal with the cinema prevented basis i think so far they've been able to fight about this right wing agenda quite yet i civil libertarian in units units its import but some other people pushing these odd noxious proposals are people like george bush and william bennett who are two of the highest authorities in this country and the so-called war on drugs so we have to be very vigilant of what their latest program is going to be we have even mention this drug testing that there's been a lot of problems about testing anyone who has a federal job deadbeats when he was attorney general was telling employers they should give drug test although ploys anyone who died in past is fired they should have checks in the locker rooms in the parking lot since attar so there is very serious attempts to carry out a lot of drugs and we were on civil liberties in this uh... country by the right wing so far the liberals have more or less kept most of these extreme right wing upright was also liberals for the whole time off is also considering movement we shouldn't forget there's also conservatives who have fears of a polka strong big brother state so there's always tomorrow liberals and and and conservatives and its traditional sense about not wanting to see the growth of state power as a check up on this unleashed uh... anti-serb libertarians for over but there's also a liberals have gone along with conservatives on some of their social hour program this and at the rhyme drugs becomes historical if there's some major murders laura senate through a drug abuse et cetera its considerable congress to pass an extremely repulsive drug laws so i i think this is uh... a very dangerous and very tense issue for this uh... country until we do com with more humane and more rational perspectives on the whole drug problem risk could easily be something the conservative or even liberal politician stupid manipulate and very precious what's really interesting thing about it is is it it's clear from watching zero the circus for several years now is that drugs or a political football i think it's a very uh... it's aware of an issue as a politician to run on after all who was overtly gonna come out and say i'm for drugs you can't be stopped on drug users like you couldn't be soft on communism that's so it's a really they really have no they're really do is there's there's no there's no cost the being a drug warrior but at the same time it's been a political football i think that the discussion the way that bitterness of the debate had been framed howdy politicize the issue by only talking about a war on drugs would the public discussions but over the past picks up the war should we go down to columbia should we extradite the the leadership we destroy the crops should we lock up kickoff of care users should we being executing po pushers should we be throwing people in a federal housing she would he had mandatory testing but disc emphasis on tactic has obscured are much more fundamental examination a much more introspective approach that would look at one of the underlying assumptions of the war and basically both the democratic and republican parties have been were parties in this matter they both have been advocating a much more stringent attack on drugs then they're looking at a much more holistic larger context will understand he really had not been for that and that's precisely what we need and we're not getting that kind of discussion computer of the major parties