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welcome to skeptkol where we explore countroversial science with leading
researchers
thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alexa Tsakiris
in on this episode a skeptical well we haven't
episode about skeptical I don't do many shows
about the show in fact I don't think I've ever done one but I know from my
own experiences visiting
other podcasts you sometimes need
in entry point into what the show is all about
or winds up sounding a lot like inside baseball
kinda that is techie talk with a lot of acronyms and
abstract references to material that's been covered in previous shows that you
never quite get
like I said I've been there another times to realize that there can be
on one hand kinda exhilarating to dip
into a different world but also kinda frustrating
to not really know what people are talking about
so I don't know why I think now it a pursuit 229 is the right time to do it
but
I just kinda felt like it was and I wanted to lay out for you
if I could the five things you need to know
about skeptic 0 and I think this would apply to you
if you're in new listener or you may even find it somewhat
interesting if you've been with the skeptical show for a while
so let's get right to it the first thing you should know
about skeptical is the I approach skeptic ok is my personal journey
toward answering the biggest questions about life
who are we why are we here and most importantly
how should I live my life based
on those questions so I try and perhaps get the coen a nice
iTunes interview Word Press format that
hopefully you find accessible than enjoyable and entertaining
but at the end of the day that dressing up is mainly so that I can keep talking
to the people
I want to talk to which of course includes you
and that's also why you'll never see me every ties Minturn skeptical you'll
never hear me
ask for any donations are anything like that
the show is really about my personal journey
I'm not trying to get anywhere with that I'm not trying to advance
any calls run for office create a name for myself for
anything else I just want to do my best answer these questions
and along the way share my journey with everyone else
point number two the second thing
you should know about skeptical is that the show
is about following the data wherever it leads
or at least it started out that way but
let me not digress into that for a minute the point I want to make here is
that
when I started out I had this idea that if I wanted to find out about this stuff
even this really big stuff like questions about Who Am I
that I could just go out in fine the dead I could go talk to the very best
experts I could go then talk to critics above those
experts and then critics up those critics I could follow all the data were
ever lead in I would get to some sort of answer
in to a certain extent that works but now back my little digression cuz I have
to tell you that
in the process of doing that following the data were ever
leads I came to the realization that its not
just about the data it's about all the other stuff
and this has turned out to be a really important part
love my little skeptical journey here because it open me
up to two things one that people can have worldview differences
that dramatically alter their ability to objectively look
it data and number two it pushed me beyond that
to then asked the question of whether or not that process
ruled view formation is always under our control
or whether they're are other influencers that are trying to manipulate
our worldview the topic that I have returned to several times
because it does seem to keep popping up
so this idea that it's not just about the data
it's about all the other stuff has been a reoccurring theme
on skeptical the one the plea for you a clip from in
episode a skeptical that I think for me was really the turning point in this
understanding in it had to do with this series a interviews
that I did with science writer and skeptic Ben Radford
about psychic detectives so I have an extended clip your from
episode 151 skeptic 0 that I think sums up
what i'm talking about. your gums so here's the situation
week interviewed psychic Nancy Weber
about the work she did associate with the *** in New Jersey
and you can go back and listen to all these interviews %uh provide links
in the show notes here and you can really dig into this is a fascinating
case I think but for the
purposes that the show me keep really brief and
here's the interview that bended
with Nancy concerning the information that she provided
to the police know and what what's that it will be in a nutshell did you did you
tell
I to the bridge would you give it more news about cop-killer
sure I saw tall a fairly tall
maybe 510 511 slim bill man apple and kind of shake
faced and I saw a lot ahead dark hair on his head
and then I saw the hair being taken off almost like awake
and it would be a buzz cut with a very high with us keep
kept saying that and then I got the name James
as I was writing and then I got that he knew the hollow in March how much is a
particular area Marcel
as we're riding around I also smelled gasoline
smell a auto shop or gasoline station
and I knew he was associate met up to work brother
so to me his brother had either owned work
at a station and the car that James would be driving
would have that then I got
polish and I connected that as polish
sent that took me to Florida
for some reason where he fell a present
and I start from been locked away in prison for ***
and I'm can't remember saying to them like %uh
he wasn't Lara jail from ***
not want and they'd let him out and
you know at some saying it getting it I don't know of
that makes any sense to anybody I didn't know it as and then set
I needed letting the word fill out that go
they need least had those idiot
okay now personally tell you big picture the police consistently still to this
day
say that Nancy provided valuable information and that her information was
amazingly
accurate they said that the meat they said that to the original TV show they
did
they said that depend Radford but in then redford's debunking exercise with
he
attempted to do was focus on some
inconsistencies what he thought were inconsistencies
summer play you again one little clip but they're that he focused
in on okay and it has to do with her saying
that the *** head going to Florida and was incarcerated down there and then
was released me play the freakin right now
can't remember saying to them like %uh he wasn't Lara
jail murdoch okay so Ben couldn't refute the fact that
nancy's information was amazing in the police the thought it was amazing and
autos accurate now after the fact it all matched up in all that
Saudi focused on was asleep point any said in
are interview in the interview with me he said hey you know what
those cops told me the she did say that he came from Florida
just that he came from the south and Isobel band that's not correct
I have it right here have the transcript of the interview threaded with captain
more
and he was insistent family as a bill to get him on the phone and we call them
and got him on the phone
in here's what captain Moore said all
coaster high captain more this is Alexa cares again from skeptic oh and I have a
then Radford from the Skeptical Inquirer online
yeah are you ok hey so as I was explaining
bed and I had an interesting chat with Nancy this morning then we got off the
phone and we started arguing like we do
I can we can we do that but
ya ban has some a potential inconsistencies he sees between
the account that you gave to me in the car that you gave to him without the
easiest way to clear that up was to get you on the phone for just a few minutes
animal let Ben takeover guy had been arm
you know Manti claimed that he specified
the happened killer come from Florida
but both you and Hughes say that you that
you recall they won't necessarily Florida it was just in the south
you number with 110 I set for
she told me that the came he lived in Morristown area
went to Florida well he was a farmer he killed someone
went to jail when you look and you know it killed an inmate but what about you
and that's what you told me an on my interview and I have a transcript to
that as well
yeah look at it if you wanna know what message said to me
yes forget that it was arrested yet told me that he
whoever committed this crime went to Florida and was living in squalor
killed someone wanted prison in Florida and then killed and then they or he was
a farmer
for some reason on no he got out
if he got out of prison taking back the Morse an area
you that's what he told me when I first met her and she was
going to work she could feel percent
I love that you can come here the strain in Ben's Voice
as this veteran homicide detective gets in his face is
know that's what I told you not get it right so then pen and I went a little
bit further he said okay well
yaaaa what about the other guy lieutenant Hughes
he told me that Nancy said that the killer came from the south
not from florida as if that would make much of a difference that
all this amazing information in that's the point you want to
raises whether she said specifically Florida or the South but
beer is it will that's the discussion we got into and again I said no
you're wrong he said Florida in his insistence that lets get him on the
phone
sweet a conference call we got lieutenant Hughes on the phone
here's how the interview went companies hella 10 issues italic secure sigue en
from skeptical s thanks again I'm not gon take too much time
let's turn it over to Ben ban is what concerned about some
potential inconsistencies he sees between
the interview gave with me in the interview you get with him so let's let
him
kinda taken over okay actually and I'm I and
not that inconsistently and I'm trying to reconcile with nancy is that
I the ball regarding the information he gave in
82 before kaddish was were directed
I'm for example she says that she said specifically that
I that the party could or could not be Florida but from
from what you told me and I think you of other places that you said that
he didn't remember her saying to the reporter just in the south
do that right no no no she not
I might have said that but now she knew the guy had killed before
and that he had killed in florida
okay yeah he had a large she knew that he'd kill before an idiot killed in
florida
were able to get it done prison time in Florida
okay cool you told me was that you said that the done time
South he said I don't recall are specifically thing be done I'm Florida
just the downtime South now I do remember Florida
maybe I was being generic her or whatever the case might be
but I do know that she said Florida
okay so this is case closed no reasonable person at this point
no reasonable journalist with any kind of integrity would at this point
still hold on to this issue
well you know what that brings us to Benz broadcast a couple months later
on michael Shermer skeptical podcast here's what Ben had to say
nance Weber said that she specified that hoffman's killer
I had served prison time in Florida he's you said quote
he came up from Florida worried in prison for *** for now this is
interesting because
that's not the same story that you hear when you gonna be the police officers
for example
searching use told me the Weber only say that the killer called
had served time in the south is important to
to no to remember that the way the psyche detectives
appear to be accurate and appear to have amazing information
is by is by giving information that seems very specific specific at the time
but is in fact very general for example psychic to tech tools they will
the body will be found near water so that's a good example how something that
can seem very specific
is in fact very general and that's that's exactly the technique the Nance
who ever used
in this case so I don't know what you wanna call that
misrepresentation miss remembering
are ally meh I don't know what kind words you wanna throw at it but
its stunning its stunning but it would be more stunning if it hasn't happened
over in over in over again on the show
in we have countless examples in all you have to do is go through the
archives in listen to Richard Wiseman in listen to
ray hyman in listen even to the even develop
listen to james randi all mean its a consistent pattern we can even call
burnout
for being a specially over the top in terms of misreporting this stuff
it has to do with the bias the world view
it clouds their vision in there just like
the fanatical conservative religious folks
that they so despise that can't get past the
obvious problems in their logic it's the same situation repeated over and over
again
okay so that means that clip and here's a case where I started out
with the idea author hollowing the data wherever it leads
and was smacked in the face by the rules Asian that it's not about the data
it's about all this other stuff that causes people to help in trench
worldviews entrench belief systems and then fight
and resist any changer any challenge to those
so I guess that rules right in 2.3
up what you should know about skeptical and that is that
one I'm really about is getting past
these stock on stupid debates as I column
and then I found turns out to be pretty hard to do because we are surrounded by
and imesh in a lot all-stock on stupid debates
one example of this that we spent a good deal of time talking about on this show
because in various forms it seem to keep popping up
again and again is the do Christians
or substitute any religion you like in their no
the true path to God all were are
atheist right so there's a good stock on stupid debate for you
in I say that because is far as I can tell
both sides have some pretty darn stupid
arguments so I'd like to take a minute
and breakdown that debate little bit
biplane a couple of clips from pass kept ago shows
so you can see why I think both sides
our stock on stupid so is an example
love how the Christian argument gets derailed in this way
I have an example from episode 199
skeptical when filmmaker Chris White
join me to talk about his popular in very impressive documentary
Incheon aliens debunked so Chris who was
otherwise a very smart capable guy
you watches documentary it's extremely well researched well put together
well thought out this is not a dumb guy in during the interview we talked almost
entirely
about his debunking love the ancient aliens television show
but we did talk about this one hot topic that
jumps up when you talk to Chris and that has to do with some of his
believes in terms of Christianity and a literal interpretation
up the Bible here's a clip from that show so
Chris your Christian beliefs have also become
a hot topic of conversation as it relates to the film
began to emphasize to people this is not a Christian
oriented film it isn't making a case it isn't evangelical
in nature but at one point you do come due
talking about the flood mythology and
you make reference to the Noah's Ark
and is that being confirmed by not a clue engineers and if anyone
you're pretty open guy out there you're very public if anyone just pursues that
at all
they find that your a pretty darn conservative Christian
and I guess you're supportive of the idea that the
Noah's Ark story has are real nice to it than that
in and process that me eat you gotta understand right I mean if people are
astounded when they learned that you think
a five hundred-year-old man built this big boat loaded up with all these
animals from around the world in cruise the oceans for a year
hard for a lot of people swallow that well I mean certainly we talk about
Noah's Ark in that certainly
something that's come up a lot I am you know the
the thing is I think that there's a lot of general sort of presuppositions about
this
im comes from Mike Sunday school version of Noah's Ark and things like that but
the Texas actually quite technical about Noah's Ark and it explains a lot of
these things
that then I think that the issue is
a very dependable I'm there's been a a good papers often reference call the
feasibility study
for a lot of things like that like all the different animals how could you get
them on the Arkansas on and so forth
and I would actually take why I would I take a bit different view and then I
don't think
you gotta work dinosaurs into the equation like I thinks is so often
unfortunate thing that there has been a part of this defense
I but but the point is is that it the
the idea is is feasible one of the many things BBC article thing did recently as
a key can build a boat that big wooden boat that big because it would just
crushed under its weight
and you know there's been really good work done on that
to essentially say first of all there isn't anybody saying that that medal was
in a part of this mean met you know even the Bible mentions that metalworking
I was before this and so on I
the it besides you don't even he I could go into the details but I'm not sure
that's what direction we want to go here but
arm but all these different things about the arc itself
I think have very rational explanations that if one takes the time to
look into those things I I think that you're at least come to the conclusion
that pay their is a rational defensive this
will I don't know about that last part in terms of rational explanations are
not know I didn't pursue too far with Chris because it wasn't the main point
to the show
but also because these did no use nails in the
arc tube 8 are the kind of debates I don't want to help
a few I guess there are some real archaeological questions there
and i wanna be open to hearing something that stuff but it's pretty much in the
shell went to the pool when it comes to these
who in my questions but I digress again
because to really understand why I think this is a stock
on stupid debate we have to look at the
other side up the table who sitting across from us
and that is the atheist who's built his house
on a very same the foundation and that is the belief that consciousness
that is the sum total love you human experience
consciousness is an allusion created by a biological robot
you of course being that biological robot
not this statement which have often repeated on skeptical but let me break
it down for you because it's really
a mash-up above to of the most popular
atheist thinkers of our time that is for loss for
doctor Daniel Dennett who famously said consciousness
is an allusion and doctor Richard Dawkins
who've course said that humans our biological robots
now we've explored it greatly can skip to go
how atheist often like to run from these
philosophical underpinnings that prop up
atheism just like Christians like to run from the law
literal no was arc thing but I would suggest to you this
ambivalence this not knowing whether I should
in brace the core beliefs of my group in this case
embrace consciousness is an illusion created by biological robots
or whether I should run from it is really
at the core above the stock on stupid debates
now since I played for you a clip from conservative Christian Chris White
let me also play for you a clip from my recent interview with
popular atheists author in Christian D bunker
john Loftus because I think it demonstrates
the cognitive dissonance that we go through when were drawn into these kind
debates
here John and I are talking about what it means to
fully embrace be a biological robot
we still have these arguments and is still change mines
and I'm then I real mines
their are no mines we are highly allergic or robots
a brain look we can't change brains there again their robotic they just
act according to the preconceived this is ludicrous like
like relook I understand where you're coming from you're focusing on
Christianity in deeper and Christianity and there's a lot to be done there
but I think you've kinda made my case to a certain extent this look badly
it logically falls apart and moreover what like I always tell people is
you know your philosophy isn't as complicated as it seems it's how you
live your life
you know and a point to me the person who lives there life
like love isn't real like connection with people is it real
sure it's just it it's silliness its absurdity
in the same way that that summer this other stuff
in terms of biblical inerrancy gets
into the absurd really quickly when you follow it
I i make I'll make an argument that if that's the case
you know if that's the case the then no ill in simply there's no other
I'll way around living our lives like we do in making the arguments that we do
but
all that you could cut that short to say there's no reason to really live your
life
the famous philosopher el Baraka mu
said this you know there's only one philosophical question
suicide if you really believe
that life is that meaningless there's no need
to continue the meaninglessness there's no need for future generations are past
generations are evolution
its all meaningless there's no reason to go on that's logical
extension here and of course it's absurd but its
the absurdity the eighties position I should say a
rail also I can say
is that when we falsify the idea
that you are this biological robot we accept that that's absurd
in once we get past the idea the consciousness
ends at death which is again like you said before only
I don't think you want accepted but that's where the evidence points
it just points that way I don't know what that means John
when I cross that chasm and I say okay
that's the evidence and I have to deal with that
a lot of things start falling differently in terms of how I Korea
myself to the world how it or not myself other people
how to orient myself to morals purpose
meaning in life so that is why I'm exploring
bomb exploring it from the other side at the Kassam other side the chasm
being consciousness survives death you are not a biological role but you know
you
okay alright by I'm I mean I i disagree I've said why
so um looks like that a course
you disagree you stand up and say I am a biologic a robot I am gonna stand by
there was no evidence for invisible beings are entities
cake but but you as you live your life you live your life like a biological
everybody does assessor tolerance
of course these examples that I've given you aren't the only kind of stock
on stupid debates out there these kinda debates crop up all the time and skeptic
one example that didn't make it into the podcast
but is something that we talked about on the skeptical form
comes from a really interesting panel discussion total reversing death the
miracle
of modern medicine and it featured Steve Paulson who is a
who's a journalist with nPR has been on the show before in
is very interested in these topics and also featured
three very prominent highly-regarded experts
on resuscitation one is Sam par on Yahoo you may know who's been on the show
his also in expert in near-death experience research
but first and foremost he's one of the foremost experts in resuscitation
the panel also included Lance Becker and Stephan Mayer
to folks I didn't know so much about but all these people
are top notch positions and research
experts with degrees and credentials that are extremely extremely
impressive so during this panel discussion they talked about a number of
topics associated with process to tension brain death last will stuff
but you kinda felt like sooner or later they were gonna move on to near death
experience because it's such a hot topic
and eventually they did in near the ended their discussion
on near-death experience there was a did knows
arcade nails moment it comes near the into the clip
let me play it for you in see if you can catch it
surprise that not a few has talked about
with his class till classically called near-death experience you know people
who have come back and who report
astonishing things that they experienced as you pointed out i mean this is an
area that I'm
very interested in this is actual got me into cardiac arrest work was when I was
a student and I had a patient to I got to know very well
who says she died in front to me at they try to say and they couldn't and I
was left and singing asking this question as to what's happening to this
person
as he's going through this as he's flatlined as they're also if you know
standing away saying thats endz able here is is he able to CS
what happened to his consciousness and justice or take a slight have revenge on
you
for not inviting for that session I
if they come back one other in the eye one of the day yeah
sessions for December we're gonna be talking about her death exact I will
come out one of the best things one of the best things I've heard I'm not
saying he was dead
what you said once so I was like listening to one of your podcasts I
think it was Asian
a session I was down here a year or two ago and you said
that when you go home at night you have this fascination
with consciousness and you pick up books when your wife is reading
like that latest novel on whatever you pick up a book on consciousness and it's
this big and you find it fascinating and we did to the end
and that's one of those with your books by the way are eager to
so I'm the same I'm a physician but I'm also faster your consciousness which is
what is it that makes us into who we are and one of the big big questions we have
right now in science and for that
for this century really is how how does brain processes
possibly to this thinking conscious being that makes us into who we are
and the general theory out there of course is not been proven is that
somehow brain cell processes somehow generate the mine
generate thoughts generate who we are but of course there's no theory or even
a plausible biological mechanism to account
for how cells could even generate a single thought so now
take that and bring it to the subject to what happens when we die
well in after
you know CPR was first discovered I about fifteen years after that book was
published which chronicled
the experiences that people have had when they've been close to death when
their hearts it stopped
and essentially these people or described feeling peaceful they had a
universal experience a feeling in men's peace
seeing a bright warm welcoming like the drawers and towards it
seeing a tunnel seeing deceased relatives sometimes welcoming them
sometimes describing seeing a being that was full of love and compassion
I would take them through ascension educational experience
way we live everything that they had done and they had said
and the judge themselves with these beings help and often they describe
going to a beautiful place and at some point
they realize they had to come back and a small proportion of them
also describe watching doctors and nurses working on them and that's the
classical near-death experience
now the explanations 0 for 4 in the seventies and eighties whether this is
probably just simply lack of oxygen a change in carbon dioxide level I think
those are now
antiquated with what we understand so all we can say sensually is that and the
reason someone like me is interested in this is
in order for us to save a person and bring them back we have to understand
what happens the brain to the cells
after a person's technically died would never forget there's a person that
so what does happen to their consciousness and the evidence we have
so far and it's an emerging field is that when a person is technically died
their brain flat lines and and no human experience should be happening at that
time whatsoever
paradoxically 10 to 20 percent if people do come back and the report these
incredible experiences
how do we know that they're not recalling his experiences as they're
coming back to consciousness as the coming out at the comma
well that's a very good question and that's been part of what I've been
trying to study and I will be releasing the results of our study
at in a month or so at a conference that
at the American Heart Association conference but there are cases which
don't support that
including what we found in our research where essentially
you can time the person's experience you can see they will tell you
exactly what was happening to them 15 or 20 minutes into their cardiac arrest
rather than just the beginning
or just the end where the brain function was coming back online again so I just
want to follow up on this year saying
their reporting what that happened fifteen or twenty minutes ago the
reporting
conversations that were heard they describe se fue
a proportionate people will describe in incredible detail
conversations events that were happening clothing
everything that happened accept that as far as we can tell
their brain at that time should be flatlined and at best idk
very very disorganized yet they come back it's not
just the subjective expensive I saw a tunnel I saw a light they will say that
well talk to make a mean here and he was wearing
a navy suit with a tight that was sorta brown and I had stripes on it
and he said my god this guy doesn't look very good let's call his wife
and my wife was crying I did all this time someone's doing this yeah
no resuscitation is ever going to be caught dead wearing a top I
US down are you know talking about water classically called
outer body experiences many people you know that that
this I don't know what that the entity hovering at the top of the ceiling
looking down at the operation invited me I told
I okay so I I hate that term near-death experience
I'm outer body experiences I tell you why because their labels that have been
put forward since the seventies which
basically polarizes people into the religious people
and the non religious scientific people and the fact is we dealing with the
human experience
in the same way that fifty years ago if you said that we could study love
through science they think it's non-scientific but actually week at
so the people that we study are not near death
as far as I'm concerned I don't like to call their expenses outer body
experiences
they are people who have gone through
death as far as we understand it technically and they have a unique
experience
and part of that is having a sensation of seeing themselves
and watching and hearing things so they have consciousness president
when consciousness should not be present as far as I science tells us today
the obvious conclusion 11 draw from this is that somehow there some aspect of the
mind of consciousness
that is not associated with the corresponding brain state
but like I said I mean this is very much a subject thats early
I'm just being studied haven't been many studies but
we have to be open to it it's possible like I said there's enough anecdotal
evidence and there enough cases that have occurred
that suggests that consciousness may continue when Bryant brain function has
seized and and to answer point that
Stefan race which i think is very important yes when you interviewed
afterwards most of them don't recall anything
and the reason for that in my opinion is simply because brainless
be traumatized they were given lots a sedative drugs and all those together
wipe out the
every circuits it simulates the fact that we all have a dream
but if you ask us the following day we don't recall the team doesn't have it
the evidence that I seen from patients that we studied is that actually
many more than probably have the experience but with time they forget
it's a few don't interview them
at the appropriate time they were recorded in the same way that people
forget things
so it's a completely new area that's really come about it's the flip side of
the coin
one side is to save the brain the other side is also we're beginning to study
what happens the consciousness
Lance I want to bring you in here what do you make of
these near-death experience
I I E think that's an really the
server has has this right which is i think we have to be open to it
and I think that we have to try to understand it because they're they're
certainly data
that is coming to us
that right now we just can't really the adequately explain
is what I think most guys what more so they like I did I just don't have a
really good
explanation for it I think we have to be just dead honest
with ourself and say we don't have a good explanation for this
and because it's so intrinsically surrounding this very
a important event I
I think we're at a point where we need to learn more about it and
and need to sort delve into it and so I am but that into me what you are saying
that what you're not you're not willing to say oh this is clearly just
the result of some biochemical hallucination you are open to the
possibility something
more might be going on I am open to the
anything that we can sort of begin to understand
about it and it you know what it might include things about
firing the bureau receptors in it and and it may have to do with other things
that are really
outside of what we understand right now so whether you want to call it quantum
serve interactions on some level you know like
I've never seen an electron yeah
but that doesn't prevent me from sorta believing
that that might exist I think in it in a similar way
we need to be open to sort trying to understand
what what is this an and I'm a very practical
serve clinician fundamentalist like well so
what what are the important things that I need to know to help a patient manage
it
have a family management to bring to
sense piece to people about it I think that
we have a responsibility disorder learn more about
Stefan from what you were saying earlier I got the sense that maybe you are the
the resident skeptic on the panel here but is that true with what you think
on you know I'm I'm thinking about how to put all this together
and I'm and I'm gonna make a guess about but seems been talking about
I E I think Ste for instance we've got people in our I see you in a can
they can become pas and we're IEEE G on the mall
right so we've got to IRI I can already tell you
that one minute 60 seconds after why we're getting ready to start to chest
compressions you still got some brainless
right and we know that there's a point in time
as as the blood pressure remains very low that the EG quickly kinda slows down
right and did we would think conventionally well then OK guess Aug
the electric car break the Peabody the brain has stopped the
it's all about electricity with a brain but what we started to learn is in
sarcoma patients
I'm me now put little wires down into the brain that can measure
electrical activity peep in the brain teaser probes to call you g depth
electrodes that we send out along with pressure monitors
oxygen monitor Zuma measures a physiology
well we've already seen cases where with the conventionally each year on the
surface
it flapped but then when you have the little dep't Ichi guess what
brain still working it's just turned off
that cortical mantle but the subcortical structures
are still working so there may be a
I guess when she is there may be a a pretty simple
were easy to understand now on mister call physiologic explanation
for why people can grabbing repay memories and remember that I'm a bad
dresser
during a 20-minute sepia Park I
if they get resuscitated they're actually maybe a physiologic basis for
that I think
you as as as physicians and scientists
that we're gonna look first and I guess where ever
our levels of understanding and we're getting more and more understanding
because we're never gonna understand it all in enacts
that be on that boundary that's where we gotta kinda fill in the blanks
and we're dealing with something that still unknowable
first off let me say that doctor stephan aircrew you just heard talking
is obviously a smart guy a leader in the field the process it Asian
he's for gotten more about medicine in science
then I ever knew but when it comes to near death
experience science he's using some didn't know was
RK have nails logic he is suggesting that there's some
deep brain activity its undetectable by
EG the could explain the complex
deep paper lucid experiences the people are having
where they're seeing things outside of her body in other rooms
wilder eyes are closed in covered not to suggest that
is to say that everything we know about how the brain works
is wrong because hey we don't have a model for the brain that explains how
you can see with your eyes closed
we don't have a model for the brain about how you can hear conversations in
the hallway three floors down
while you're on a gurney being resuscitated pack we don't even have a
model for the brain
for how you can be having these experiences and not have been
EG going off like crazy so for doctor mare to suggest that
no don't worry boys will figure all this out eventually
and not sound some sort of alarm based on the day that he
as an accepts because he does except
that near-death experiences are happening and that they are happening
during a time when the ED is flat
so for him not to announce that as some kinda enormous mystery that requires
are immediate in serious attention and instead to shift the focus
on these deep brain probes is
a did know was are kept nails moment it's shifting the focus away from a
topic that you don't feel really comfortable addressing
so that you can kind of grind on something that's really pretty
meaningless
in this case it a little more subtle it a little more refined but
basically it's the same thing
and that leads me into point four of things you should know
about skeptical and that is that if skeptical
is about moving past these stuck on stupid debates these
did know was arc have nails kinda debates
them what kinda dialogues am I looking to help
one other things the really drives me motivates me
excites me is all the interesting questions that live be
on these debates and there are so many other men I wanna get to him
I'm less interested in whether or not
Sam hernias new we're study will
win over summer the atheists skeptics who were still
on the fence about the reality of near-death experience
what I'm interested in is comparing near-death experiences with
other experiences with extended human consciousness
whether they be DMT induced hallucination
were kinda leaning experience or a UFO encounter
that's the kind of question that lies beyond
the whole consciousness is an allusion uva biological robot stupid stuff
not to get to that next level kind of discussion I'm gonna have to circle back
from time to time
to revisit my assumptions and I have to be aware
in honest about the fact that consciousness is an illusion of a
biological robot thing i'm talking about. happens to be
the dominant scientific paradigm so we can't pretend it doesn't cast
a huge shadow on any serious scientific conversation we might have
I don't want to pretend that's not true in similarly
I wanna be real about our culture's judeo-christian route another can cast a
shadow on
all conversations we might have about the spiritual implications
we might discover when we go beyond this extended human consciousness
so many does circle back in reexamine some of our spiritual traditions and
religious traditions from time to time as well in
I'm sure I'll do that in future shows and then finally on this point I think I
also have to be
realistic in except that this path then I'm on
is not gonna be wildly popular
and most folks have a worldview belief system
that's dominated either by this scientific materialistic
neo darwinism atheism kinda thinking
or this true believer religious status quo kind of track
and since I've come to believe and understand that both are based on some
pretty crippling assumptions I got to accept that
at best people like her probably be confused about where i stand.
or her and this seems to happen a lot as you know
darn right hostile to me trampling all
over there sacred cherished beliefs about
science and or spirituality
and that brings me to the fifth in final point
that you should know about the skeptic Osho
and that is that the reason I do skeptical
is so that I can connect with you
so that I can create this community with
other people who share my beliefs in interest
and desire to kind of figure out these problems
you know all a long time ago the US presidential for sleepy
Hillary Clinton was derided for saying that
it takes a village to raise a child well well I guess I've always felt
intuitively the same thing about my path
its going to take a village for me to figure out
who I really am and that's why at various times
in the skeptical show I've tried to engage with other people to either come
on and guest host with me
or participate in other ways in the show or get involved with various projects
I like that I think that community building is a part
%uh not just the skeptical show but part love my path
in what I wanna do because I do think it takes a village
and and I'm really grateful to the folks who listen to the show for
being part of that village %uh
mind whether you like the shell were sometimes like this you know
or usually almost always don't like the show
it still in some way that I don't fully understand contributes to
moving this whole enterprise forward
so I'm not exactly sure how all this came out
and I'm not sure if it gives you a better understanding love
what the show was about but I hope it does and I hope this show becomes
something that I can point people to do in the future and say
if you're just joining the show or if you just listen to a couple episodes
and you're intrigued look here at episode 229 in your get an idea
love where I'm coming from and why we do the things we do here
so with on I'd like to invite you to
join this village join this community and connect with me
on any other points raise in this episode
of course the place to do that is that the skeptical website
Skee PT I K 00 dot com
where you can leave me a comment about the show or hopefully
jump over to the new improved skeptical form
an omen have a big link there were you can come over and join us in a
conversation over there
I think you'll like what you see in the new form in if you don't like what you
see
b.com apart love making it but you wanted to be on
that's what it's about would love to get your input in your ideas for future
direction
we want to create a place that is open to or variety
viewpoints but first and foremost is getting past these
stuck on stupid debates in getting towards the real
meaty important topics that we want to talk about so
join us over there in become apart love making
that happen while you're there the skeptical what side of course
you can check out all OVR over 200 previous shows
subscribe to the show or joining our email list
to get regular updates on when the show comes out
have a number of interesting shows coming up including a couple more
on this you are tho extended consciousness connection
we have a lot more to talk about their I haven't been able
to be on the form quite as much as I'd like because every number other things
going on that
hopefully that'll change in the upcoming weeks I do appreciate you listening in
joining me for all this
until next time take care in back for now
do
on
in