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>> HELLO, I'M MARY ALICE WILLIAMS.
I'M THE PRESIDENT OF THE NOKOMIS FOUNDATION,
AND THIS AFTERNOON, IT'S MY PLEASURE TO BE HERE WITH NAOMI WOLF,
WHO HAS BEEN CALLED A "PUBLIC INTELLECTUAL."
I LOVED THAT WHEN I READ THAT ABOUT HER.
SHE IS THE AUTHOR, PROBABLY MOST NOTABLY, OF THE BOOK "THE BEAUTY MYTH,"
AND SHE'LL BE TALKING ABOUT THAT LATER THIS EVENING
IN AN ADDRESS AT GRAND RAPIDS COMMUNITY COLLEGE'S
DIVERSITY LECTURE SERIES.
BUT TODAY, WE'RE GONNA HAVE KIND OF A FREE-WHEELING CONVERSATION
WITH NAOMI ABOUT SOME OF HER OTHER INTERESTS,
WHICH ARE TO ENGAGE CITIZENS
AND TO HELP CITIZENS REALIZE THAT NOT ONLY DO THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY,
THEY-- I THINK-- HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO BE AWARE
AND TO FIND WAYS TO BE ENGAGED
IN THIS DREAM OF CREATING A BETTER AMERICA.
IN THE TIMES THAT WE LIVE IN,
THAT'S A PRETTY TALL ORDER FOR MANY OF US,
AND SO, IT'S HELPFUL TO KNOW THAT SHE'S WRITTEN A NEW BOOK
CALLED "GIVE ME LIBERTY," WHICH, UM...
THE FIRST PART OF IT IS REFLECTIONS ON WHAT EXACTLY THE AMERICAN IDEA IS.
AND THE SECOND PART GOT ME REALLY EXCITED
BECAUSE IT'S A RECIPE
FOR THOSE OF US WHO MAY HAVE FORGOTTEN HOW TO BE A CITIZEN.
SO, THAT WAS MY TAKE FROM THE BOOK, NAOMI,
AND I'M VERY GRATEFUL THAT YOU WROTE IT AND I'D LIKE TO HEAR--
NO, MAYBE, HOW DID YOU GET THINKING ABOUT WRITING SUCH A BOOK?
>> SURE. >> AND HOW DOES IT FLOW
FROM THE REST OF YOUR WORK? >> THANK YOU.
WELL, FIRST, LET ME SAY THAT IS ONE OF THE NICEST
AND ALSO MOST SUCCINCT SUMMARIES OF THE BOOK I'VE HEARD,
SO I REALLY APPRECIABLE THAT.
UM, I WROTE THIS AS A SEQUEL TO A PREVIOUS BOOK I'D WRITTEN
JUST BEFORE THIS CALLED "THE END OF AMERICA."
AND "THE END OF AMERICA" WAS VERY DARK,
BECAUSE IT LOOKED AT TEN KEY ACTION STEPS
THAT DICTATORS ALWAYS TAKE,
WHETHER THEY'RE ON THE LEFT OR ON THE RIGHT
IN ANY SOCIETY, AT ANY TIME,
TO CLOSE DOWN DEMOCRACY...
AND IT MADE THE CASE THAT WE'RE SEEING THOSE TEN STEPS
BEING PUT IN PLACE IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> YOU TALKED ABOUT A SHIFT TOWARDS FASCISM.
>> CORRECT.
AND EVERY SINGLE THING, UNFORTUNATELY--
AND I'M NOT SAYING THIS WITH ANY SATISFACTION--
UNFORTUNATELY, EVERY, SINGLE THING I PREDICTED IN THAT 2007 BOOK
HAS NOT ONLY COME TRUE BUT GOTTEN EVEN WORSE
THAN I COULD HAVE EVER IMAGINED.
AND SO, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION,
THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION-- THERE ARE VERY POWERFUL,
UM, YOU KNOW, GLOBAL FORCES AT WORK THAT PROFIT FROM--
BECAUSE WE'RE SEEING THE SAME PATTERN ALL OVER THE WORLD NOW
IN ADVANCED DEMOCRACIES-- THAT PROFIT FROM SUPPRESSING DEMOCRACY,
SUPPRESSING CITIZENS' RIGHTS,
UH, SUPPRESSING CITIZENS' ACCESS TO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION,
MAKING INCARCERATION MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT AND DANGEROUS,
MAKING PROTEST MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT AND DANGEROUS, UM,
STRIPPING CITIZENS OF RIGHTS TO PRIVACY--
YOU KNOW, OUR BEAUTIFUL BILL OF RIGHTS IS GOING, YOU KNOW, ONE RIGHT AT THE TIME.
UM, SO, UNDERSTANDABLY-- SO, THAT BOOK WAS A BIG BESTSELLER,
JUST THROUGH WORD OF MOUTH, BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT'S NOT ABOUT ME.
IT'S JUST PEOPLE REALIZED THIS IS REALLY HAPPENING.
UM, NATURALLY, THEY ASKED ME, "WHAT DO WE DO?"
AND THIS IS THE SEQUEL.
IT'S-- AS YOU SAID, IT'S A SERIES.
IT'S 55 ACTION STEPS TO GIVE CITIZENS THE TOOLS.
AND I THINK CITIZENS ARE DELIBERATELY MISINFORMED ABOUT THIS.
THEY'RE SORT OF GIVEN THE MESSAGE THAT,
"OH, YOU SHOULD VOTE," OR MAYBE "READ THE PAPER,"
AND THAT'S THE EXTENT OF YOUR TASK AS A CITIZEN.
BUT IN FACT, THE FOUNDERS...
EXPECTED US TO BE IN CHARGE.
UM, THEY DIDN'T EXPECT US TO JUST HAVE SUCH LIMITED-- SUCH A LIMITED ROLE.
UH, AND... I THINK THE POWERS
THAT PROFIT FROM OUR PASSIVITY WANT US TO FORGET THAT.
SO, THESE ARE, UM...
YOU KNOW, ACTION STEPS TO EMPOWER YOU TO TAKE BACK,
UH, THE LEADERSHIP OF YOUR COMMUNITY AND YOUR NATION.
YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING FROM HOW TO CREATE YOUR OWN MEDIA,
HOW TO DOCUMENT GOVERNMENT ABUSES,
HOW TO FILE A "FREEDOM OF INFORMATION" ACT REQUEST,
HOW TO PROTEST SAFELY, HOW TO, YOU KNOW, RUN A MEETING,
HOW TO FUNDRAISE, HOW TO START AN ORGANIZATION.
YOU KNOW, WE REALLY NEED TO-- ESPECIALLY EVENTS RECENTLY--
THE CRACKDOWN ON "OCCUPY," THE DICTATORSHIPS IN MICHIGAN...
(chuckling) YOU KNOW, WE REALLY NEED
TO TAKE BACK DEMOCRACY NOW IN AMERICA.
>> AND I WAS STRUCK BY ONE PART IN THE BOOK
WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE ROLE THAT THE FOUNDERS HAD PLAYED,
THAT YOU SAID THAT WE FORGET OR ARE NOT TAUGHT IN OUR CIVICS
AND IN OUR AMERICAN HISTORY
THAT IT WASN'T JUST THESE FOUNDERS WHOM WE CAN NAME
BUT ALL OF THE PEOPLE BEHIND THEM--
THE WASHERWOMEN AND THE CANDLE-MAKER AND THE COBBLER.
WHOEVER WAS PART OF THAT CITIZENRY THAT MADE THESE NOBLE IDEAS
OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT ABLE TO BE ACTUALIZED
BECAUSE THERE WAS ENOUGH GROUNDSWELL OF REAL PEOPLE BEHIND THEM,
AND I THINK THAT'S THE PART WE DO FORGET. >> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT,
AND THANK YOU, AGAIN.
YOU'RE LIKE THE IDEAL READER. >> (laughing).
>> THANK YOU FOR NOTICING THAT PART OF IT.
IT'S REALLY PRECIOUS TO ME.
UM, YEAH, THE WAY WE GET TAUGHT-- IF WE GET TAUGHT ANYMORE,
AND YOU KNOW, FEWER THAN OF HIGH SCHOOLS, COLLEGE FRESHMAN STILL TEACH CIVICS,
SO, YOU KNOW, MANY YOUNG PEOPLE CAN'T NAME OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT.
BUT, UM, EVEN WHEN WE'RE TAUGHT CIVICS, WE'RE TAUGHT--
OR THE FOUNDING OF THE COUNTRY, WE'RE TAUGHT ABOUT, LIKE, THESE--
THIS HANDFUL OF EDUCATED WHITE MEN,
AS IF THEY CAME UP WITH THE IDEA.
UM, AND AGAIN, THAT REINFORCES THAT KINDA "TOP-DOWN" IDEA OF WHAT AMERICA IS.
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO JUST, YOU KNOW, VOTE FOR THE PRESIDENT AND FOLLOW ORDERS.
WELL, THAT'S NOT HOW OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED.
OUR COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED BY, YOU KNOW, THESE IDEAS OF LIBERTY
WERE BROAD-BASED GRASSROOTS IDEAS,
AND THEY WEREN'T JUST JEFFERSON AND FRANKLIN AND MADISON.
THEY WERE, AS YOU SAID, WORKING PEOPLE, FARMERS,
UM, YOU KNOW, UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE, HOMEMAKERS, SLAVES--
YOU KNOW, ESCAPED SLAVES AND FREED MEN.
UH, AND THE INITIAL FOUNDING OF THE COUNTRY
WASN'T, YOU KNOW, THIS SORT OF--
AGAIN, NOT THIS "TOP-DOWN" EFFORT.
IT WAS A LOT LIKE "OCCUPY."
I MEAN, IT WAS LIKE MASS MOVEMENTS OF CITIZENS ERUPTING IN PROTEST,
AND THEY WERE NOISY AND MESSY AND DEMANDING
AND, YOU KNOW, IRREVERENT.
I MEAN, WHEN THEY-- YOU KNOW, WHEN WASHINGTON WAS IN CHARGE--
YOU KNOW, WE REVERE WASHINGTON--
AND PEOPLE WERE ANNOYED AT HIS FOREIGN POLICY.
THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, PROTESTING AGAINST WASHINGTON IN THE STREETS.
YOU KNOW, QUITE RADICALLY PROTESTING.
THE TEA PARTY WAS A SUBVERSIVE, RADICAL PROTEST.
I MEAN, UM, YOU KNOW, OCCUPY PROTESTERS NOW--
ARE NOW BEING PUT IN JAIL IN TERRIBLE CONDITIONS.
I WAS ARRESTED FOR STANDING ON A SIDEWALK, OBEYING THE LAW, IN MANHATTAN,
NEAR A PROTEST EVENT...
YOU KNOW, INFORMING PROTESTERS WHAT THEIR LEGAL RIGHTS WERE,
BASED ON THIS BOOK, ACTUALLY.
AND, UH...
YOU KNOW, THAT'S SO ALIEN TO OUR AMERICAN TRADITION
AND OUR AMERICAN VALUES...
AND WE FORGET, YOU KNOW, THE FOUNDERS WERE THE ORIGINAL "OCCUPIERS," YOU KNOW?
THE PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT THIS COUNTRY TO BEING
WERE, UM, NOT SAYING, "PLEASE, RUN THIS COUNTRY FOR US."
THEY WERE SAYING, "EVERYONE."
YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THE INITIAL FRANCHISE DIDN'T EXTEND TO WOMEN
AND PEOPLE OF COLOR AND SO ON,
BUT THE SEED OF THAT IDEA,
THAT EVERYONE HAS EQUAL RIGHTS AND EVERYONE HAS, UH...
INALIENABLE RIGHTS THAT DESCEND FROM--
YOU KNOW, THAT CAN'T BE TAKEN AWAY,
UM, THAT'S JUST GROWN AND GROWN.
AND YOU KNOW, THE SEED WAS ALWAYS THERE--
IT WAS ALWAYS PERFECT.
AND I JUST WROTE AN ESSAY THAT'S COMING OUT THIS WEEK FOR "THE GUARDIAN"
SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T EVEN OWN THAT IDEA.
WE DON'T EVEN OWN THE BILL OF RIGHTS OR THE ENLIGHTENMENT.
THEY ORIGINATED IN EUROPE AND IN NORTH AMERICA,
BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD-- YOU KNOW, IN TAHRIR SQUARE NOW,
IN BAHRAIN, IN GREECE, PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING THOSE IDEAS.
THEY BELONG TO EVERYONE.
>> AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IT'S--
YOU KNOW, AS I REFLECT ON IT, IT'S INCUMBENT ON US.
IF PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE CLAIMING THOSE IDEAS, WHICH WE TEND TO THINK OF--
AGAIN, PERHAPS IN OUR LIMITED KNOWLEDGE-- AS UNIQUELY AMERICAN.
BUT IT FEELS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THEY'RE UNIQUELY HUMAN.
UM, YOU QUOTED SHARANSKY, I THINK,
WHO SAID THAT WE CAN EITHER LIVE IN A FREE SOCIETY
OR A "FEAR" SOCIETY.
AND I'M WONDERING, ARE YOU SEEING US MOVING MORE TOWARDS A "FEAR" SOCIETY?
AND THROUGH CONCRETE EXAMPLES OF THAT.
THERE CERTAINLY IS A SUPPRESSION OF IDEAS AND--
IN THE NAME OF SAFETY, YOU KNOW, HAVING US DO EVERYTHING FROM ABSURD THINGS
LIKE TAKING OFF OUR SHOES AT AIRPORTS TO,
YOU KNOW, REALLY SQUASHING PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO ASSEMBLE.
>> RIGHT. >> OR AS YOU WITNESSED, YOURSELF,
IN YOUR KINDA CHANCE ENCOUNTER WITH THE "OCCUPY" PROTEST THAT NIGHT.
>> RIGHT-- ALTHOUGH NOT SUCH A CHANCE ENCOUNTER
WITH PRECINCT SEVEN IN NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT.
(both laughing) >> YES.
>> WHEN I WAS BEHIND BARS WITHOUT A LAWYER.
UM, "YES" IS THE TERRIBLE ANSWER.
I MEAN, I'M SEEING THINGS I NEVER THOUGHT I'D SEE IN MY LIFETIME
IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
UM, PEOPLE WHO ARE EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT ASSEMBLY RIGHTS,
AND REMEMBER, THE FIRST AMENDMENT
GUARANTEES THE RIGHT OF FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY
AND TO PETITION GOVERNMENT FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.
YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO-- IT'S NOT LIKE, "OH, THESE 'OCCUPIERS' ARE SO WEIRD."
OR THE TEA PARTIERS-- YOU KNOW, ANY OF THEM!
IT'S-- I'M NOT PARTISAN.
IT'S NOT JUST AN AMERICAN RIGHT-- IT'S AN AMERICAN OBLIGATION TO ASSEMBLE,
TO PETITION GOVERNMENT FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.
PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THAT ARE BEING, IN L.A., YOU KNOW,
HANDCUFFED WITH CUFFS SO TIGHT THAT THEY LOSE--
YOU KNOW, THEY GET NERVE DAMAGE.
UH...
I JUST SAW A HORRIBLE VIDEO THIS MORNING OF YOUNG PEOPLE IN MIAMI
WHO WERE PLANNING AN "OCCUPY" EVENT AND A S.W.A.T. TEAM,
WITH, LIKE, SUBMACHINE GUNS SURROUNDED THEM
AND MADE THEM KNEEL ON THE GROUND AND PUT THEIR HANDS LIKE THIS...
AND THEY'RE, LIKE-- YOU KNOW, THEY'RE SURROUNDING THEM, ARMED,
WITH THEIR GUNS POINTING AT THEM?
UM...
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE FACING FELONY CONVICTIONS,
TEN YEARS IN JAIL, FOR PROTESTING.
UH, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ARRESTED WITH US
AND WHO WERE IN THE COURTROOM WHEN MY PARTNER AND I WERE--
YOU KNOW, THE DEED CHOSE NOT TO MOVE AHEAD WITH CHARGES--
THEY'RE FACING, YOU KNOW, 15 DAYS IN RIKERS ISLAND,
WHICH IS ONE OF THE MOST VIOLENT PRISONS IN AMERICA...
UM, AND THESE ARE FOR CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHTS.
YOU KNOW, "THE PATRIOT ACT."
IF YOU'RE AN ACTIVIST GROUP, YOU CAN JUST ASSUME
THAT YOUR CORRESPONDENCE IS BEING READ.
YOU KNOW, THE F.B.I. HAS BEEN SENDING UP TRIAL BALLOONS,
LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY'RE TROLLING SOCIAL MEDIA.
UM, THIS MARINE-- LIKE, EVERY DAY, THERE'S SOMETHING--
"A MARINE GOT INVESTIGATED FOR CRITICIZING OBAMA ON HIS FACEBOOK PAGE."
YOU KNOW, BRADLEY MANNING IS BEING SINGLED OUT BY THE U.N.
BECAUSE THE U.S. IS TREATING HIM TOO HARSHLY
FOR INTERNATIONAL NORMS, YOU KNOW?
THINGS THAT ONLY HAPPENED IN BANANA REPUBLICS OVERSEAS
ARE NOW HAPPENING IN OUR BACKYARDS.
AND I MEAN, DON'T EVEN, LIKE-- YOU'RE ASKING ME A QUESTION, I'M SO--
I REALIZE I'M SO TRAUMATIZED BY RECENT NEWS EVENTS,
I CAN'T EVEN, LIKE, SUMMARIZE THE HUGENESS OF IT EFFECTIVELY--
THERE'S SO MUCH-- BUT, UM, N.D.A.A.--
"THE NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT"--
WAS RAMMED THROUGH ON NEW YEAR'S EVE,
AND NOW, WE DON'T HAVE DUE PROCESS ANYMORE.
I MEAN, IT IS LITERALLY MARTIAL LAW NOW BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT SAID,
"I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DETAIN ANY AMERICAN FOREVER WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL."
>> AS I LISTEN TO YOU TALK, AND YOU KNOW, FEEL BOTH YOUR PASSION
AND YOUR INDIGNATION ABOUT THESE ISSUES,
IT FEELS LIKE YOU'VE MADE--
I DON'T THINK OUR EVOLUTION AS SOCIETIES OR PERSONS ARE EVER LINEAR,
BUT IT SEEMS LIKE YOU'VE MADE A PROGRESSION
FROM SOME OF THE EARLY WORK THAT YOU WERE NOTED FOR--
THE WORK THAT DID IN "THE BEAUTY MYTH" AND OTHER EARLIER BOOKS THAT YOU WROTE,
WHICH, YOU KNOW, POSITED THAT SOCIETIES THAT OPPRESS
AND STIFLE THE VOICES OF WOMEN
ARE SOCIETIES THAT ARE REALLY PLANTING THE SEEDS OF THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION,
AND THIS SEEMS LIKE SOME OF THAT COMING HOME TO ROOST,
AND I'M WONDERING IF YOU-- I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, ALL OF US ARE CITIZENS
AND OUR OBLIGATIONS AREN'T SEGREGATED BY GENDER,
BUT DO YOU THINK THAT, GIVEN SOME OF THE THINGS
THAT ARE GOING ON WITH DOMESTIC POLITICS RIGHT NOW,
THAT WHAT'S HAPPENING TO WOMEN ESPECIALLY--
UM, EFFORTS TO CONTROL AND SUPPRESS THE VOICES OF WOMEN
AND THE HEALTH NEEDS OF WOMEN-- ARE PART AND PARCEL OF ALL OF THIS?
>> YEAH, I DO, AND THAT'S A VERY--
AGAIN, YOU'RE ASKING ALL THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.
UM, WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW-- I'LL TELL YOU WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IN AMERICA.
EVERYONE IS STARTING TO BE TREATED LIKE BLACK PEOPLE
AND EVERYONE IS STARTING TO BE TREATED LIKE WOMEN.
UM, AND WHAT I MEAN IS...
WHEN I FIRST WENT AROUND THE COUNTRY WITH "THE END OF AMERICA,"
IT WAS AFRICAN-AMERICANS WHO DIDN'T NEED ME
TO BREAK THROUGH ANY LAYER OF DISBELIEF OR DENIAL,
BECAUSE THEY KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THAT THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WAS CAPABLE OF LYNCHING THEM, COVER-UPS, KIDNAPPING THEM, PERSECUTING THEM.
YOU KNOW, IT WAS NOT NEWS TO THEM.
AND, UM, YOU KNOW, WOMEN'S BODIES
HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AFFORDED LESS PROTECTION THAN MEN'S.
THE STATE HAS ALWAYS WANTED TO LEGISLATE
AND INVADE WOMEN'S BODIES.
UM, YOU KNOW, THE BATTLES OVER ABORTION RIGHTS...
OR IT'S NOT JUST OVER ABORTION RIGHTS.
IN TOTALITARIAN COUNTRIES, YOU HAVE BATTLES OVER,
YOU KNOW, ENFORCED FERTILITY OR DENIED FERTILITY AND SO ON.
IT'S NOT IDEOLOGICAL-- IT'S JUST ABOUT CONTROL.
SO, NOW...
CERTAINLY, I SEE A CONNECTION BETWEEN, UM...
YOU KNOW, THE VAGINAL EXAMS IN EGYPT,
WHERE WOMEN PROTESTERS ARE PUNISHED
BY BEING TRAUMATIZED WITH A PELVIC EXAM IN FRONT OF STRANGERS--
YOU KNOW, A "VIRGINITY TEST," RIGHT?
THAT IS CERTAINLY PART AND PARCEL OF THIS INTIMIDATION
OF A TRANSVAGINAL SONOGRAM.
YOU KNOW, WHAT DOONESBURY CALLED "SHAMING WANDS," RIGHT?
IF YOU'RE GONNA HAVE AN ABORTION, FIRST, WE'RE GONNA VIOLATE YOU, VAGINALLY,
AND PUNISH YOU, AND, YOU KNOW, YOUR BODILY INTEGRITY HAS NO MEANING.
UH, AND, UM...
AND THE WAY THAT THE T.S.A. MOLESTS PEOPLE NOW.
I'M MEAN, WHICH IS PURE THEATER.
YOU KNOW, I TRAVEL ALL OVER THE WORLD
AND ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE DOES ANYONE GROPE ANYONE'S GENITALS,
EVEN IN COUNTRIES THAT HAVE SUSTAINED TERRORIST ATTACKS LIKE ISRAEL
OR, YOU KNOW, BRITAIN OR SPAIN.
UM, IT'S ILLEGAL TO GROPE ANYONE'S GENITALS
WHEN YOU'RE GOING THROUGH SECURITY,
AND THEY ARE PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE MAKING SURE
THAT YOU'RE NOT CARRYING ANY WEAPONS WITHOUT GROPING YOUR GENITALS.
AND I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT THE GENITAL GROPING
THAT PEOPLE ARE SUBJECTED TO IF THEY DON'T GO THROUGH THE CANCER MACHINES,
WHICH ARE RUN BY MICHAEL CHERTOFF, YOU KNOW,
WHO IS A GOOD FRIEND OF THE BU-- ETCETERA, RIGHT?
MAKING MILLIONS FOR EACH MACHINE.
UM, IT'S PART OF A... A KIND OF...
THEME OF THEATER THAT'S ABOUT TEACHING CITIZENS
THAT THEY DON'T HAVE BODILY INTEGRITY,
THAT THEY'RE SUBJECTED TO THE WILL OF THE STATE, THAT THEY CAN'T RESIST.
UM, AND...
YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY-- JUST TO CONCLUDE--
EVERYONE'S BEING TREATED LIKE WOMEN NOW.
>> AND THAT'S AN INTERESTING WAY OF PUTTING IT,
AND I THINK THAT, UM, YOU KNOW, AT THE CORE OF FEMINISM
IS THAT NOTION OF INDIVIDUAL CHOICE AND FREEDOM,
AND AGAIN, THAT COMES BACK-- AND IT'S A CHOICE--
IT'S THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE WHATEVER IT IS YOU CHOOSE,
AND YOUR CHOICE MIGHT BE RADICALLY DIFFERENT THAN MY CHOICE,
BUT AS AUTONOMOUS HUMAN BEINGS, WE HAVE THOSE RIGHTS.
AND I THINK, THAT AGAIN, IT STRUCK ME THAT, UM...
YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS AGO, YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT THAT
IN "THE BEAUTY MYTH"
AS THE REASON THAT IT WAS SO IMPORTANT FOR US
TO NOT BE MANIPULATED BY ADVERTISING,
MANIPULATED BY ERRONEOUS NOTIONS OF PERFECTION THAT ARE UNATTAINABLE.
UM, AND THEN, YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT, UM...
WHAT CHOICE AND FREEDOM AND HAPPINESS MEANS IN THIS BOOK,
AND IT ISN'T JUST, YOU KNOW-- I THINK YOU SAID, "IT ISN'T JUST THE RIGHT
"TO BROWSE THROUGH CATALOGS AND BE HAPPY,
"YET THINKING ABOUT WHAT MORE THINGS I CAN ACCUMULATE AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT,"
BUT THAT HAPPINESS AS A COMMON GOOD.
YOU KNOW, PURSUING THE GREATER GOOD, AS KIND OF AN OBLIGATION OF THE CITIZEN.
UM, AND I THINK THAT THAT'S, UM...
IN MY MIND, THAT'S HOW IT LOOPED BACK TO WHAT SOME OF YOUR EARLIER IDEAS
WERE ABOUT, UM, WHY IT WAS SO IMPORTANT FOR--
IN THAT THIRD-WAVE OF FEMINISM, WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED WITH,
TO HAVE WOMEN ASSERT, POLITICALLY, THEIR VOICES AND THEIR FREEDOMS.
AND THEN, IT SEEMS YOU'RE BRINGING THAT BACK TO
"IT ISN'T JUST DOING IT FOR MY OWN PERSONAL WELL-BEING,"
THE WAY WE TEND, I THINK, IN OUR CULTURE TO DEFINE IT,
BUT RATHER, TO LOOK AT THE LARGER PICTURE
AND TO RECOGNIZE THAT UNLESS,
PERHAPS, WE ALL HAVE THOSE FREEDOMS,
NO ONE HAS THEM, YOU KNOW? >> RIGHT.
>> AND I THINK-- SO, THAT'S THE--
THAT'S THE DISMAL SIDE, THAT'S THE DOWNSIDE.
WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AS MAYBE SEEDS OF HOPE OR SEEDS--
IN WHAT I, LIKE YOU, SEE AS A FAIRLY DARK TIME FOR WOMEN,
FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR,
FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR AND DISENFRANCHISED?
UM, AND YET, YOU'VE KIND OF CREATED A COOKBOOK HERE
THAT SAYS IT NEEDN'T BE LIKE THIS,
AND I GUESS, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC THAT USING NEW TOOLS
LIKE SOCIAL MEDIA, USING, UM...
EDUCATION AND ADVOCACY, THAT WE CAN MOVE PAST THIS,
OR DO YOU THINK IT'S TOO LATE?
HAS THE SHIFT BEEN COMPLETED? >> YOU KNOW, IT'S-- WE'RE--
>> I KNOW, ON A BAD DAY, WHAT THE ANSWER IS.
>> YOU KNOW, WE'RE IN REALLY A WORLD HISTORICAL CONFLICT RIGHT NOW.
UM, I WOULD SAY THIS IS THE BIGGEST CONFLICT
SINCE WORLD WAR II,
BECAUSE WHAT'S HAPPENING IS, ALL OVER THE WORLD,
PEOPLE ARE KIND OF WAKING UP TO THIS AWARENESS
THAT IT REALLY ISN'T ETHNIC, RACIAL, OR NATIONAL IDENTITY THAT DIVIDES THEM
IN ANY SIGNIFICANT WAY,
THAT MOST PEOPLE JUST WANT TO LIVE IN PEACE, HAVE DEMOCRACY,
AND RAISE THEIR FAMILIES.
AND IT DOESN'T-- YOU KNOW, PALESTINIAN, ISRAELI,
YOU KNOW, MUSLIM, CHRISTIAN--
IT DOESN'T MATTER TO MOST PEOPLE...
AND SOCIAL MEDIA'S DEFINITELY A HUGE PART OF THAT.
UM, BUT-- SO, ALL OVER THE WORLD, THERE'S THIS AWAKENING
AND THIS DESIRE FOR FREEDOM AND AUTONOMY,
AND YOU'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, WOMEN'S RIGHTS BEING PUSHED FOR,
YOU KNOW, ALL OVER THE MUSLIM WORLD, ALL OVER ASIA, ALL OVER AFRICA.
AND YOU'RE SEEING THIS-- AT THE SAME TIME, THIS, AGAIN,
TRANSNATIONAL CONCENTRATION AND COLLABORATION OF CORPORATE INTERESTS
THAT ARE NOW MORE INFLUENTIAL THAN NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS,
AND ARE SORTA DIRECTING NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS.
THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORY-- IT'S JUST THE WAY BUSINESS IS BEING DONE.
(laughing) YOU KNOW, MANY, MANY COMMENTATORS
FROM ME TO NAOMI KLEIN TO NOAM CHOMSKY SORT OF AGREE ON THIS.
AND, UM... AND THERE IS AN INCREASING--
I'M SEEING THIS IN COUNTRY AFTER COUNTRY-- SYSTEMATIZATION--
I MENTIONED THIS EARLIER--
OF WAYS OF CRACKING DOWN ON DEMOCRATIC CIVIL SOCIETY
TO MAKE THINGS LESS COMPETITIVE
AND LESS CONTENTIOUS FOR CORPORATE INTERESTS.
IS THERE A PROBLEM-- SHOULD I KEEP GOING?
OKAY, LESS COMPETITIVE AND LESS CONTENTIOUS FOR CORPORATE INTERESTS,
AND SO, WE'RE GOING TO BE SEEING THIS FIGHT,
BUT IT'S NOT AN "EAST VERSUS WEST" FIGHT OR A MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN FIGHT--
IT'S A "THE PEOPLE GLOBALLY VERSUS THESE INCREASINGLY REALLY VICIOUS
"SORT OF CORPORATE-SLASH-GOVERNMENTAL INTERESTS"
WHO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SUPPRESSING PEOPLE'S RIGHTS AT HOME
IN ENDLESS WAR OVERSEAS.
UM, AND I-- YOU KNOW, IT COULD GO EITHER WAY.
I MEAN, SOME OF THE THINGS I SAID PEOPLE SHOULD DO ARE NOW ILLEGAL.
YOU KNOW, THE SECTION-- >> GIVE US AN EXAMPLE.
>> SURE, THE SECTION ON PROTEST.
UM, I WROTE IT BEFORE PEOPLE WERE BEING VIOLENTLY ABUSED,
AND YOU KNOW, BEFORE THE N.D.A.A.
SO, WITH TWO CHILDREN,
AM I GOING TO PROTEST THE WAY I WOULD HAVE PROTESTED
BEFORE THE PRESIDENT HAD THE RIGHT TO SHIP ME TO GUANTANAMO
'CAUSE HE WANTED TO?
YOU KNOW, I THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THINK LONG AND HARD ABOUT IT
UNTIL WE, YOU KNOW, REPEAL THE N.D.A.A.
UM, BUT I DO STILL BELIEVE--
I DO-- SO, SEEDS OF HOPE.
PEOPLE ARE MUCH MORE AWARE OF THIS BEING THE STRUGGLE BEFORE THEM NOW
THAN THEY WERE SIX MONTHS OR A YEAR AGO, INCLUDING IN THE UNITED STATES.
UM, SO, IF ENOUGH PEOPLE--
LIKE HISTORY DOES SHOW THAT IF ENOUGH PEOPLE WAKE UP AT ONCE,
AND ENOUGH PEOPLE STAND UP, EVEN IN MILLIONS OF LITTLE WAYS,
TO THESE REPRESSIVE FORCES,
IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR THESE REPRESSIVE FORCES
TO WIN OVER THE LONG-TERM.
UM, BUT WE REALLY NEED TO MOVE QUICKLY
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK--
HONESTLY, I THINK THERE'S A WAR ON, AND IT'S NOT THE CITIZENS WAGING IT.
THERE'S A WAR AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
I WOULD NOT HAVE SAID THAT IN THOSE TERMS A YEAR AGO,
BUT NOW, I DON'T THINK WE CAN HIDE OUR HEADS IN THE SAND.
UM...
AND IT'S GONNA KEEP GETTING WORSE UNTIL AMERICANS STAND UP
AND START TO ORGANIZE IN THIS WAY IN A TRANS-PARTISAN WAY, AND SAY ENOUGH.
SO, SEEDS OF HOPE, UM...
WELL, I WAS ON A CONFERENCE CALL WITH THE TENTH AMENDMENT CENTER,
WHICH IS CONSERVATIVE,
AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS DEFENSE COMMITTEE, WHICH IS SORT OF CENTRIST,
AND, UM, YOU KNOW, ME, AND I GUESS I'M LEFT OF CENTER,
AND SO, IT WAS QUITE BEAUTIFUL,
'CAUSE WE WERE CITIZENS ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM,
ALL JUST LOVING THE CONSTITUTION AND TRYING TO JOIN FORCES
AGAINST THE NATIONAL DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION ACT.
AND IT WAS LEGISLATORS, STATE LEGISLATORS, CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS--
AGAIN, ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM-- ON THE CALL WITH US.
UM, IF WE KEEP DOING THINGS LIKE THAT,
IF WE CREATE A MOVEMENT THAT IS TRANS-PARTISAN,
OF JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE LOVING THE CONSTITUTION SAYING "NO,"
WE STILL HAVE A WINDOW BECAUSE WE STILL VOTE
AND THEY STILL NEED OUR VOTES TO BE IN POWER.
THAT WINDOW IS CLOSING.
UM, BUT IF THAT REALLY RAMPS UP--
AND THIS IS WHY I'M SO PASSIONATE ABOUT THE WEBSITE
THAT TEACHES PEOPLE HOW TO BE LEADERS IN THIS WAY,
AND YOU KNOW, GETTING THE WORD OUT, GETTING THE WORD OUT LIKE THIS--
UM, THEN, YEAH, I DO SEE A BETTER DAY COMING,
AND I THINK IT'LL BE EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE,
BECAUSE PEOPLE IN AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD
WILL HAVE REALLY REALIZED WHAT FREEDOM MEANS
AND HOW BEAUTIFUL THOSE THINGS ARE--
THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND OUR CONSTITUTION--
HOW PRECIOUS THEY ARE, HOW THEY KEEP US SAFE.
>> DO YOU WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT WEBSITE?
IS IT UP AND RUNNING OR IS IT IN THE IDEA STAGE?
>> IT'S IN BETA. (both laughing)
IT'S IN BETA-- I LEARNED HOW TO USE ALL THESE MOGUL TERMS.
UM, BUT IT'S VERY EXCITING.
IT'S GOING TO BE CALLED "DAILYCLOUDT.COM,"
AND, UM-- C-L-O-U-D-T--
AND IT WILL BE A ONE-STOP SITE
FOR FINDING OUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN LEGISLATIVE TERMS
AND BEING ABLE TO ORGANIZE AROUND IT,
INCLUDING RAISE MONEY FOR YOUR OWN POLITICAL CAMPAIGN,
BECOME A LOBBYIST FOR YOUR OWN ISSUE,
UM, CROWDSOURCE FUNDRAISING, "DEMOCRACY U.",
WHERE YOU CAN LEARN, YOU KNOW,
EVERYTHING FROM HOW TO START YOUR OWN POLITICAL MOVEMENT,
HOW TO TALK TO THE MEDIA, HOW TO, YOU KNOW, RAISE MONEY,
HOW TO DO EVERYTHING A CITIZEN NEEDS TO DO,
AND ALSO A CITIZEN'S VOICE NEWSPAPER,
WHERE CITIZENS CAN COVER THE ISSUES,
'CAUSE WE NEED CITIZENS TO BE REPORTERS NOW,
'CAUSE MAINSTREAM MEDIA'S NOT DOING THE JOB.
UM, SO, WE'RE TRAINING REPORTERS ON THE SITE--
UM, ORDINARY PEOPLE TO KEEP AN EYE ON LEGISLATION,
ON CURRENT ISSUES, WRITE OP-EDS, AND, YOU KNOW, BACK THEM UP,
SO THAT CITIZENS CAN TAKE ON THE JOB OF INFORMING EACH OTHER.
WE'VE BEEN-- I'VE BEEN DOING IT, UM, KIND OF FLOATING THE IDEAS
IN MY FACEBOOK COMMUNITY,
WHICH HAS 3.2 MILLION MONTHLY POST VIEWS IN 23 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD,
AND IT'S INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL.
I MEAN, THE REPORTING THAT CITIZENS DO WHEN YOU TRAIN THEM
IS SO MUCH MORE DIMENSIONALIZED
THAN THE REPORTING THAT EVEN GOOD INVESTIGATIVE REPORTERS
HAVE TIME OR RESOURCES TO DO THESE DAYS. >> THAT'S INTERESTING.
HERE IN GRAND RAPIDS, WE NO LONGER HAVE A DAILY PAPER.
>> I WAS JUST HEARING THAT! >> THERE'S SOME AWFUL THING ON--
CALLED "eREPLICA," WHICH IS SUPPOSEDLY A REPLICA OF THE DAILY PAPER
THAT'S NO LONGER DELIVERED TO YOUR HOME.
BUT SOME OF THE MOST EXCITING LOCAL REPORTING ON ISSUES
IS BEING DONE BY AN ELECTRONIC VEHICLE CALLED "THE RAPIDIAN," AND--
>> OH, REALLY? >> THEY'RE COVERING--
AND IT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
IT'S CITIZEN JOURNALISM. >> I'LL HAVE TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT.
HOW EXCITING. >> AND IT REALLY IS A HOPEFUL SIGN
THAT PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING THAT THEY, TOO,
HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO REPORT ON THE ISSUES
AND DO MORE THAN TRANSMITTING TO THEIR LOCAL T.V. STATION--
THE FUNNEL CLOUD, YOU KNOW? >> RIGHT, EXACTLY.
>> THAT IF WE CAN GET OUR VIDEO CAMERAS OUT
AND RECOGNIZE THE FUNNEL CLOUD MIGHT BE OF DANGER OR OF INTEREST,
THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE REPORTING ON,
AS THEY AFFECT OUR LIVES AND THE ISSUES-- >> ABSOLUTELY, AND CAN I JUST SAY--
I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE TIME FOR THIS,
BUT CAN I JUST SAY, AS A JOURNALIST, I'M SO AMAZED AT THIS MODEL
BECAUSE, UM, YOU KNOW, WE WERE TALKING--
JUST YESTERDAY, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT GAZA, YOU KNOW,
AND WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA.
AND SOMEONE FROM ISRAEL
POSTED A PIECE IN THE HAARETZ BUSINESS SECTION
ABOUT THE MANUFACTURERS OF "IRON DOME," WHICH IS BOEING,
WHICH IS THE ANTI-ROCKET TECHNOLOGY
THAT IS BEING PUT IN PLACE NOW, WHEN THERE'S ROCKET ATTACKS.
AND THAT THEY WERE USING THE ROCKET ATTACKS TO GO TO INVESTORS
TO RAISE HALF A BILLION SHEQELS,
AND THEN, SOMEONE ELSE WAS DOING LIVE FOOTAGE--
YOU KNOW, ON THE GROUND REPORTING-- FROM GAZA.
LIKE, TWITTER FEEDS FROM GAZA.
AND THEN, WE SORT OF PUT THE PIECES TOGETHER
AND REALIZED THAT, IN ADDITION TO WHATEVER WAS GOING ON GEOPOLITICALLY ON THE GROUND,
THERE WAS ALSO THIS KIND OF META-NARRATIVE
OF A LOT OF MONEY AT STAKE IN THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX,
UM, THAT KIND OF--
YOU KNOW, WAS MAXIMIZING THE PROFIT IN THE SITUATION.
SO, IT'S-- YOU KNOW, AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, THERE ARE THESE NEWS STORIES--
AND MUSLIMS AND JEWS TOGETHER WERE PUTTING THESE PIECES TOGETHER.
ONCE YOU TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO REALLY SOURCE MATERIAL VERY WELL
AND HOW TO DO FIRST-HAND REPORTING, "WHAT'S A GOOD SOURCE?
"WHAT ISN'T?
"UM, WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHY, HOW?"
YOU KNOW, THE RESOURCES THAT YOU GET
WITH ALL THESE GOOD MINDS AROUND THE WORLD,
PUTTING THE PICTURE TOGETHER, IS JUST PHENOMENAL.
>> AND THAT'S A HOPEFUL SIGN, TOO. >> IT IS A HOPEFUL SIGN!
>> AND YOU BLOG AND YOU ARE ON TWITTER-- >> THAT, TOO.
I HAVE HELP FROM A WONDERFUL WEBMASTER, DANIEL HOLK.
>> OKAY. >> 'CAUSE I'M JUST AN ENGLISH MAJOR!
(both laughing) THIS STUFF IS ALL VERY NEW TO ME!
>> HEY, I'M AN ENGLISH MAJOR, TOO.
SO, WE CAN RULE THE WORLD THROUGH ENGLISH MAJORS.
(music) WELL, I WANNA THANK YOU.
THIS HAS BEEN A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO CHAT WITH YOU.
YOU HAVE PROVOCATIVE IDEAS.
AGAIN, THE BOOK IS "GIVE ME LIBERTY-- A HANDBOOK FOR AMERICAN REVOLUTIONARIES,"
AND IT MAKES A CASE THAT THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
IS AN ONGOING PROCESS
AND THAT, IN FACT, OUR CORE, KEY DOCUMENTS
NOT ONLY TELL US WE SHOULD,
BUT REQUIRE US, IF WE'RE GONNA BE CITIZENS,
TO KEEP ENGAGED IN THIS PROCESS
AND TO HELP CREATE A SOCIETY WHERE ALL PEOPLE CAN EXPERIENCE JUSTICE
AND OPPORTUNITY AND ACCESS TO THE THINGS
THAT WE ALL SAY WE WANT WHEN WE CALL OURSELVES AMERICANS,
AND NOW, PERHAPS, GLOBAL CITIZENS AS WELL.
SO, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, NAOMI, THIS IS WONDERFUL TO TALK TO YOU.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.