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By the age of 13,
more than 70% of kids drop out
of organized sports because
it's just not fun anymore.
Outrageous behavior in
youth sports amongst fans
and even the players themselves
is highlighted regularly
on popular media.
Does the idea of good
sportsmanship not exist
in some places or are we just
more aware of a behavior
that has always been a part
of youth sports?
Joining us today to discuss
youth sports and what parents
and coaches are doing right
and wrong are Kelly Jackson,
president of All American
Softball and the author of
"Bats, Gloves, and Glitter:
7 Must-Know Facts
about Female Athletes"
and Bill Herenda,
executive director
of the Positive Coaching
Alliance of Sacramento.
Kelly, Bill, welcome
to the program.
>> Great to be here, Scott.
>> So how did youth sports
become such a grim business?
>> The pressure of a college
scholarship I believe.
>> Really?
>> That's what I think.
>> And so have we just
professionalized youth sports
where I mean literally
it's like pro sports?
>> Well I think college
and pro sports are a business
and they're..
it's entertainment and I think
that mentality has seeped down
into youth sports
and we're missing
the rife opportunities
for character development
which really is what youth
sports should be about
and don't get me wrong,
I love professional sports
and I love college sports
but there I think it's more
about entertainment and I think
that "when at all cost"
mentality has seeped down
into the youth level
and of course at the
Positive Coaching Alliance
we're not saying they're
mutually exclusive but we're
saying "Hey, this level,
this should be about better
athletes and better people"
and developing major league
people for the long-term.
>> But Kelly, I've got
to ask the question.
Are we getting upset about
something that's always been
a part of youth sports,
I mean bad parents and you know,
crazy coaches and things
like that.
Isn't that as all American
as apple pie and hot dogs?
>> Well I think it is.
I don't think that parents
or coaches have really changed
that much, I think there's
more media showing..
>> So they were always rotten?
>> They're always crazy, yeah.
I think there's more media
showing what they're doing
and there's a lot more awareness
to their behavior and people
want their kids being treated
a certain way so the people
are asking coaches or they're
demanding coaches to treat
their kid a certain way and then
parents have an idea of what
they want their kid to be,
they have an expectation of
their child to have a college
scholarship so I feel like
there's this whole great big
business around the kids
as opposed to it being a part of
the community and the athlete
really enjoying
what they're doing.
>> And so Bill.. there's..
there is a notion going on
in this country that we're
too soft on our kids anyway
and so there's this conflict
which is that you look
at YouTube or anything
on the internet and it shows all
of these bad incidences
of unsportsmanlike conduct.
At the same time you know
in our self-esteem age
everyone's a winner, right?
And so how is it that we
reconcile one, this grim
competitiveness that seems to be
at the root of making kids
unhappy but at the same time
we also are saying
"Well, it doesn't matter
how you do, you don't have
to compete because
we're all great".
>> Well we are all great,
we know that Scott.
Present company
of course included.
However, I will say this.
Essentially what we're talking
about is kids learning how
to develop into responsible,
independent, confident adults.
And you've got to recognize
where your strengths are
and Charlie Wedemeyer the great,
late football coach of Los Gatos
High School said
"high school teaches you what
life is going to be like,
athletics teaches you
what life is"
so kids have to learn
how to succeed.
Do it with dignity,
do it with class.
They also have to learn
how to fail.
You're not always going to get
into the school you want,
you're not going to
get the job you want,
you're not going to see
eye to eye with every professor
or every boss.
So they have to learn how to do
that and again our national
advisory board with guys like
Ronnie Lott, gals like
Brandie Chesney, Doc Rivers,
Lionel Hollins, Dusty Baker..
the list goes on and on.
These are fierce competitors.
Kelly, I'm sure you know
we wouldn't be in athletics
if we were not competitive,
highly driven.
Those goals of winning
and character development
are not mutually exclusive.
I think they can co-exist..
>> But are we teaching kids
to compete these days when
all we do is give out trophies
to everybody?
>> No, we're not teach them..
we would take the
competitiveness out of it
because everything they do
is good.
Well, it's not.
If you strike out, it really
isn't good so coming to
the dugout and being told
how great you are,
it's not reality and I think
that that works into their
working world
when they get older.
If reality is everything
they do is great, they're not
going to respond to having
a boss or having direction
or being able to..
>> Your boss is not going
to give you a flower every day
just for showing up.
>> No, no.
And showing up
a few minutes late.
You know, you just..
the parents are enabling their
kids to not have to learn
and not have to follow through
with what they need to
follow through with.
If they want to quit a team,
they can just quit a team.
If they feel like they've
been done wrong, that's okay.
If you've been done wrong
let's move on and kids need
to know that they have
to finish things.
They need to know that they have
to work through I think,
work through the hard things
and learn from mistakes.
I use a lot of negative things
that kids are doing in sports
to help them advance in their
development and say okay,
you don't like that so make
that a positive for yourself.
How are you going to handle
that if it happens to you
at a job or how are you going
to handle that if it happens
to you in college?
So they have to learn but
I'm in a private setting
teaching them and, and I get to
be one on one with them
and their parents aren't there.
When it gets really bad,
I bring a parent in and I go
"Okay, this is what's happening
and you're saying that she can
quit and I'm saying that she
has to continue"
so she can learn how to
get through this.
>> Now that sounds contrary
to a line that I just heard
recently about some coach said
that he wanted to coach a team
full of orphans because they
didn't have any parents.
So.. so are the parents part of
the solution as well in terms
of making sports more enjoyable
for our young people?
>> Well what we found at the
Positive Coaching Alliance,
that we've got to touch
each constituency.
>> Describe them.
>> So we have workshops
for coaches, our paradigm
is a double-goaled coach.
The first goal is to win,
the second more important goal
is to teach life lessons.
For the parents,
second goal parent.
That's what you should
aspire to.
There you're re-enforcing
your life lessons.
You're not second-guessing
the coaches and acting
as a deterrent on the car
ride home, etcetera.
And then for the student
athletes we're talking about
being a triple
impact competitor.
Making yourself, your teammates
and the game overall better
and we also have workshops for
leaders within and athletic
department or within a board
of a league whether it's
a little league, soccer,
etcetera.
>> So with that,
where is there fun?
Because that's what
their parents want,
they want them to have fun
so where's the..
I totally agree with what
you're saying but..
>> So here's one quick example,
Kelly is in our workshop
for parents for example we talk
about why do you have your kids
in athletics in the first place?
Is it physical fitness,
is it just to simply have fun,
to interact with your peers,
is it about learning teamwork,
leadership skills,
confidence..
or is it a college scholarship?
So people may feel reluctant
to admit that.
That I've got my kid here
to get through college.
That's why.
They may be reluctant to admit
that publicly but at least
that's something that we can..
>> Isn't that an unrealistic
goal? for parents?
>> Well here's what..
you know people say it all
the time.. I get angry when
I hear people talk about numbers
because oh, well the percentage
of kids that play in college
or play professional..
listen.
We're not putting a ceiling,
I would never put a ceiling
on any kid and what they can do.
You know certainly having
played college basketball
I.. you know, looks can be
deceiving I mean my game
was not that good but
I was able to do that through
a lot of hard work
and a lot of people,
a lot of help along the way.
So I.. again, don't..
pursue your dreams,
work as hard as possible.
And again, it's those skills
that are going to propel you
to great things in life not just
on the field.
And Kelly, to finish up
with your point I agree,
the whole thing should be about
fun and certainly I think
and Scott you mentioned it
earlier that coaches have
always been mean.
I think in our generation..
yeah it was,
when you were playing college
basketball and there was
a scandal at Rutgers you were
at the mercy of your coaches
because they controlled
the steering wheel,
playing time,
all of those things.
>> But, but these coaches..
you know, coaches being mean..
we're going to work for and with
people that are mean so what
I'm trying to get at is where's
the balance at because
on the one hand you want
to create a positive environment
and create it such so that
there's not a 70% drop off rate.
>> The balance is within
their family.
It's what their family unit
expects them to do and I think
what we do best or what I like
that we do is we take the kid
to their next level so if
they're in rec ball and they
want to play high school ball
then we teach them how to play..
we give them the skills,
teach them the skills to play
high school ball and I've been
in business 19 years and pretty
much that has kept me in
business to teach them that next
step as opposed to teach them
to get a college scholarship.
>> Give us a sense of the
characteristics of the kids,
the girls that
you're dealing with..
that drive you crazy,
that you're hoping that you can
help sort of work out of them
over time as you work with them.
>> Part of it the athlete
that bothers me the most is
an athlete that has a lot of
talent but doesn't want to work
hard to get that step further.
They can play division 1
softball but they really don't
want to put the work ethic in.
The other athletes really..
I don't ever get irritated
with an athlete,
I get irritated with what
the parent is teaching
the athlete.
So I have to work in and out
of parent dynamic,
a family dynamic,
a softball dynamic.
A team, coach..
so there's all kinds of dynamics
that I work in and out of
that are there because
of the family structure.
>> Is that more of
a generational entitlement
mentality issue?
>> I believe it is.
I think it is, I think
that our kids..
you know being asked why
I do this it's because..
>> Why do you do this?
>> I do it because I love it
and I want kids to have
the same thing that I had
and I want them to have
something of their own.
I think that athletics develop
something of your own.
You know, you're good at it,
you get to have it and it's
something that no one
can take from you but it's..
when I try to deal with people
to get them to understand that
they're not always going to win,
they're not always going to feel
good after a ball game..
I really have to educate parents
and when I was growing up if
I did well then I got praised.
If I didn't do well then I heard
about it and I think that
our kids need to hear
a little bit more reality
than they do now.
And you know, we deal with
female athletes so we're a lot
more sensitive so we like to
fit in and look good so dads
don't really understand that.
Dads want us to go all out
all the time and we're just..
sometimes we..
>> How is coaching girls
different than coaching boys?
I'm curious because..
>> It's hugely different.
Oh, it's so different.
We have a different
thought process.
We're more sensitive.
We have different things
that we like.
Fit in, look good..
those are all important to us.
What color we're wearing..
so the sport is really important
but we have some other dynamics
so if you tell us that
you want us to do something
we're okay with doing it but
if you belittle us and tell us
then we just give up.
Most female athletes give up.
>> Really?
>> And we're working, 95%
of all female athletes
work the same way.
There are a few of us out there
that are aggressive and if you
tell me to do something hard,
do something better I'll go
"Okay, I'll do that better"
but most female athletes go
"ooh, you don't like me"
and we take a step back.
>> Bill, you know I know that
youth sports is about the kids
but really it seems like 90%
of the conversation where things
need to be fixed is about
the parents and I..
just share with both of you
a quick story.
I was at a soccer game and
a young 14 year old player
was acting as a ref and she made
a call and two parents
surrounded her and cursed her
out and so finally the coaches
and some parents came over
and essentially intervened
but that young woman,
it must have been terrifying
for her and the fact that
that type of behavior goes on..
what does PCA do in terms
of helping to addressing that?
>> Yeah.
It's a huge issue and it's awful
and you know essentially
we define culture as the way
we do things here and we're
looked at as a.. you know,
we're a nationwide non-profit
that's reached over a million
kids last year alone so we are
in the trenches with schools
and leagues all the time
and essentially teams now
at the youth level have a team
parent whether it's a team mom,
a team dad..
and it's essential that
the leadership within that
league start off and set
the tone of how they're going
to act and we're going to act
with dignity,
with respect and we're
going to act with class.
Embrace our opponents.
We're going to be fierce
and friendly and we talk a lot
about honoring the roots
of the game.
Rules, officials, opponents,
teammates and self and officials
are a huge part of that.
>> But respond to the specific
situation that I presented.
If either one of you had been
in that situation what are the
tools that the parents should
know or how do you address
the situation?
>> So there..
there are no guarantees here,
everything's off the table
because you could easily
end up on the 6 o'clock news.
We, I would never say that this
is a safe option but essentially
you should have parents that you
trust that are going to step up
and Jim Thompson
in his latest book
"Elevating your game",
talks about moral courage.
Stepping up when others
and even those closest to you
won't or don't agree with you
and you've got to shut it down.
Simply.
We just don't do things like
that here and now again
that could explode,
that can be incendiary but
you've got to have the
moral courage to step up,
that's just not right.
>> Kelly, does that stuff
happen in softball?
>> It happens all the time
in softball.
We have youth umpires
and parents feel like they can
belittle them and make them
change their call because
they're intimidating them.
>> So what do you do?
>> Well if it's
a volatile situation,
we call the police I mean
there's no.. if a parent is
really acting out and they need
to be brought back, I don't
think it's another parent or
my responsibility
to take care of them.
When I was a junior
Olympic commissioner we had
a situation and a parent got
really mad at me because
I couldn't control this coach
and it wasn't a situation that
I could control,
it was a situation that the law
needed to control.
So people put a lot
of responsibility on people
that are they are you just
have to learn how to behave.
I mean I had coaches..
All-American has a coach
division and I have parents
that get mad at my coaches
and they'll call me
and the first thing they say is
"Hey, I really want to apologize
for my own behavior.
I did go off on your coach
and I did cuss him out on the..
in the parking lot but you know
he made me mad
earlier than that"
and my immediate response
to that parent is..
your poor daughter.
You had to really humiliate
your daughter with
your behavior that way.
And then they step back.
"Well yeah, but I was mad."
Well it doesn't matter.
That's your daughter's sport,
she's 12 years old and it's
really sad you behaved that way
and you know to get parents
to behave is really becoming
a huge issue in, in athletics.
I mean..
>> Yeah, we talk a lot
in our workshops
about a self-control routine,
that you're prepared
as a parent, as a player,
as a coach.. that you know,
it's a big game.
It's a rivalry.
There's a lot at stake,
you've got to check yourself.
You've got to be mentally
prepared to put yourself
in that position.
Visualization before it happens
so that you conduct yourself
in an appropriate,
professional manner.
Because of course parents
and coaches have a prodigious
impact.. I think as a coach,
as a parent..
sometimes you don't realize how
malleable these kids are and how
they look up to you so it's
really paramount that we strive
to act and it's not always easy,
it's not.
But we've got to strive to take
the high road and do
the right thing.
In many ways it's simple
like Yogi Berra it's a simple
game but difficult to execute-
and I think in this case
it really is true.
>> So let me, let me give you
another scenario.
There are some coaches who say
listen- drop your kids off,
leave and we'll return them
to you and they will be
just fine. On the other hand,
you're asking us parents to drop
off our kids and leave them
with you.. what are the warning
signs if we were to follow that
advice, what are some of the
warning signs that you can offer
to let us know that there might
be a problem because we might
let something go with a bad
coach that goes way on too long.
>> Well there's..
you have to really know
the coach before you do that.
I always tell parents,
let a coach do to your child
what you would do and if they're
going further and most of the
time this is yelling at them..
if you don't yell
at your child like that,
don't let the coach.
And you know, we were in
a situation several years back
where my kids were playing
and they had an aggressive coach
and I said I don't treat my kids
that way, so I don't want you
to treat them that way
and then the..
we had a coach that was coaching
our older team and most of his
kids got scholarships but he was
really verbally abusive
to those kids
and so I'd tell him,
do you treat your kid that way?
No I don't. That's not how
we work in our home.
Don't allow the coach
to do that.
So I feel like again,
parents have to set boundaries
and then they have to follow
those boundaries when they
get to the ball field.
>> And the type of training
that PCA does,
what is it specifically..
let's say that you're a young
parent and you're just starting
to get your kids involved before
the 70% drop off rate
has happened.
What do you suggest..
give us kind of a rules of
the road in terms of what
we should be doing.
>> Yeah, I think as a parent
you should listen to your kids,
I think that you should
let it be their thing.
It's really a hands-off
situation at that point.
It's simple- let the kids play,
let the coaches coach and just
be there to support them.
I mean it's.. to me it's not..
and especially at that stage
of the game where you're talking
about before the drop off rate
of 13, you're talking about
young kids in grammar school..
just let them have fun.
Let them try different sports
particularly at that age
in this era of specialization..
see what they like.
You know, listen, encourage them
and let them go for it.
>> Listening is a huge deal,
especially when a parent
is coaching their child.
They don't listen so when
we get into situations and again
I'm training the athlete and
I hear the athletes complaining
about her parent/coach
and I bring the parent in
and I go "Okay, just sit here
and listen.
Have you heard this before?"
and always they tell me
"No, I didn't know that that
was how she was feeling"
so it's a listening..
and I think that a lot of that
has to do with a male coach
versus a female athlete because
the athlete does need to be
listening to and really
when she's saying something
she means it or it's
important to her.
>> Can you explain that again?
A male coach versus
a female athlete?
How does that play in?
>> So most male coaches
are aggressive, they want things
done immediate and they just
want to give direction.
They don't want to give any
pre-direction or they want to..
you know, hey you struck out
I want you to watch the ball..
don't strike out again is what
a male coach will say
to a female athlete and really
what a female athlete needs when
she walks in the dugout is hey,
why don't you watch the ball
all the way in?
So it's different teaching
that males, they were taught
that way and they were taught
aggressive that female athletes
don't respond at all.
We shut down,
we just basically shut down.
It's okay,
I'm not good enough for you.
>> That's what I think,
coaching is a high energy
business and I don't mean
like kinetic, frenetic..
it takes a lot of effort
to really listen to your players
and you know we talk about
an emotional tank
with your players.
Where are you with the emotional
tank with each one
of your players?
And it's really important
to have a gauge
of where you're at.
You've got to fill the tank
at times, inevitably you're
going to drain it and also
we talked earlier about okay,
this ubiquitous media coverage
of all these egregious
examples but you know one
of the things that I think is
a selling point is that look at
the successful coaches that are
high profile.. Doc Rivers,
Lionel Hollins, Phil Jackson..
they happen to be PCA national
advisory members however
Doc Rivers will talk about we
want more R's than S's, we want
more character than characters.
We're going to, we're going to
pass on people with more talent
because we want chemistry and
they're having great success.
Mike Malone, The Kings new coach
talked about the unbelievable
commitment of golden state
Warriors players
to mark Jackson,
his belief in them.
So again.. our generation,
I think coaches could kind of
dictate a little bit more.
Now it's about appealing
to the heart, mind and souls
of the players.
>> Let's talk about coaching
for a second because we talked
about the 70% loss rate in terms
of players by age of 13 but
I would suspect at least having
gone through the experience of
being a youth coach that
the drop off rate or the dropout
rate of new coaches is probably
pretty darn high because I got
to tell you by year three
I was miserable.
>> When I do coaches clinics
I teach the coaches because most
of them are moms or dads
and I tell them that if you..
you have to set boundaries
for the parents and you have
to set boundaries for your own
child and if you're..
and if you want to talk about
the game on your way home
you probably your boundaries
are probably going to get
crossed because you'll get mad
at your kid or your kid will get
mad and I tell them that if you
do these things you will stay
in the game.
If you don't you'll be done
and it's about your three
that they say never mind,
I'm done.
>> Never again was
actually the one..
>> Never again!
The thing that I learned,
I just went back out
on the dirt..
I learned that each kid has
their own personality
so my playing days in the Pac 12
and coaching in the Pac 12
I feel like we're..
I'll tell you what to do
and you do it that way..
and now I had to learn the kid's
personalities and I was really
shocked by that.
It was like wait a minute I just
told you to do something..
and how I learned that was by
the expression on their face
you know. One kid would go
"Okay, I can do that" another
kid would just kind of shut down
so I've learned over the last
year and a half how to really
take each individual kid and try
to motivate them in their own
way and try not to go that extra
step that's gonna shut them down
and just take them to the brink
where they can really learn
something, get something done
and that's been a real challenge
for me because it wasn't
something that I had
experience with.
When I'm training in
All American I just,
I'm training, I'm teaching them
their skill to get better,
they go out on the field
and they play a game and they
are better or they are not
better, one or the other.
And then they come back and they
want to improve
their skill again.
>> in our final few moments,
I wanted to ask you both..
what.. we've talked a lot about
what's wrong.. let's talk about
what's right for a second.
What are some of the events
or the developments
that have happened over the past
few years or that you see coming
up in the near future that are
the most hopeful in terms of
really making the experience
for young people better in youth
sports and bringing down
that rate.
>> Yeah, I would say locally
there are a lot of folks that
are extremely committed whether
they are principals,
administrators,
athletic directors, coaches that
are really committed to making
this experience as good as it
can be for the kids
and particularly again,
leveraging the rife life lessons
that athletics provide.
Locally we have incredible
support from our board,
corporate partners, donors..
it looks like we're going to
double the number of workshops
this fiscal year compared to the
last fiscal year, so this
is significant commitment
of people that really care about
kids and to me that's very
motivational and I think on a
high profile level we mentioned
some of the coaches earlier that
are being successful and again
if you are a coach it's about
what is going to be your legacy
if you are a youth coach
down the road.
>> And so Kelly, I want to give
you the last word.
In our last 15 seconds,
what's positive that
you see on the horizon?
>> In the ground roots level
it's training that we're giving
our coaches and parents,
to be better coaches and parents
and to provide a good atmosphere
for the kids.
I feel like they have a lot
of training now that
they didn't have before.
Coaches clinics, there's a lot
of things that we do
when we're working hands
on with the people that have
control of our kids.
>> Thank you very much.
Thank you both
for being on the show.
And parents,
clean up your acts.
Let's make it fun for our kids.
That's our show.
Thanks to our guests and thanks
to you for watching
Studio Sacramento.
I'm Scott Syphax,
see you next time right here
on KVIE.
♪♪
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for our customers and help
our communities prosper.
Honest dialogue about the issues
affecting the region is vitally
important to that prosperity.
We are proud to be a part of
the conversation and hope
you'll join in.
All episodes
of Studio Sacramento along
with other KVIE programs
are available to watch online
at kvie.org/video