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Every day we strive to
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help our communities prosper.
Honest dialogue about the issues
affecting the region is vitally
important to that prosperity.
We are proud to be a
part of the conversation
and hope you'll join in.
♪♪
>>Since 2009 when he was
appointed to lead the Sacramento
City Unified School District,
Jonathan Raymond has been
described as a general who lead
from the front lines and not
from behind his troops.
Always passionate
and opinionated,
Raymond's tenure has been one of
change and experimentation amid
severe budget challenges and an
evolving student population.
Fans and critics are
equally passionate,
but the one thing they seem
to agree on is that Sacramento
has never had a superintendent
quite like him before.
Superintendent Raymond is
stepping down to return to
his native Boston.
He joins us to share his
insights on education
in Sacramento,
and his thoughts on the future.
This is his exit interview.
Mr. Raymond.
>>Good morning, Scott.
>>You only have a few days left.
What- what's going
through your mind?
>>A lot of reflection, and, uh,
honest, a lot of mixed emotions.
It is, uh, it's hard to leave,
and it's hard to leave
Sacramento, uh, a city
and town that I've grown
to love that's really embraced
my family and my children, uh,
a place where my children
have come of age and are
doing great in school.
It's, uh, it's an
organization that we've,
that we've got moving and doing-
doing really good things
for kids, and, uh,
we're a lot better off than we
were four and a half years ago
when I started on that, uh,
hot August afternoon.
And, y'know, I miss, uh,
I'm gonna miss the kids.
Y'know, my 43 thousand kids that
I've grown to love and to, uh,
and to care for and to- to wake
up every day and be-
and to be fighting for.
I'm gonna miss that.
>>Now you're going to Boston,
what's next?
>>Well first of all, nobody
moves to Boston in December.
[laughter]
>>Yeah, it is a
rare thing, isn't it?
>>Unless it's real important.
And, y'know, for this
and for my family who
have embraced my dream, uh,
to be a school superintendent,
and have followed me
around the country for, uh,
seven plus years,
it's a chance for them to get
home and to get their roots
back, um, with family.
My kids' grandparents are there,
and uncles, and aunts,
and cousins. And- and, uh,
so that's what's next.
>>Mmhmm.
When you arrived here,
was there one experience,
or one child that you met,
that kind of encapsulates that
'This is why I'm here'?
>>Y'know, my very first day as
superintendent I ended it on uh-
uh, a home visit through
our parent-teacher
home visit project.
And the family we went to visit,
the Castro family, it was quite
a remarkable, uh, experience
for me, um, she said, y'know,
as we came into her house very,
um, humbled but very neat,
and they brought out their best-
their best china, food, fruit.
She said "Y'know, sometimes if
Muhammad is late to school, um,
it isn't because I don't care or
I don't want him to be on time,
it's just because I'm, y'know,
I have cancer and I'm-
and I'm going through
something very personal.
And, um, and it's sometimes
difficult for me to-
to get him and his
brothers and sisters up."
So, y'know, what it made
me realize, I think,
from that moment on, um,
at least it planted the seed,
that so much of our work is
about relationships and
about connections,
individual between teacher
and student and parent.
>>And one of the things that
sometimes we all forget about,
as we look at
statistics and numbers,
is that behind all those numbers
are neighborhoods, and families,
and kids as human beings.
How were you able to bring that-
that level of personal
interaction into the big
decisions that you had to make?
>>Mmhmm. Every day when
I would wake up I would remember
a few words that, uh,
an expecting mother told me,
again, in my first week
as superintendent.
And I went around this table at
this small dinner that the
community had organized for me,
and I asked them what they would
do if they were in my shoes.
And she just said
"Superintendent, take risks
for kids. Take risks for kids."
So I think that entered
into our decision
making at- at all aspects.
Y'know, we always at the end
of the day wanted to have our
decisions be about children,
about all children,
and that if we weren't sure, um,
we were gonna err on the
side of taking a risk.
And I- I think that true north
has really helped
to set us apart.
>>That reminds me, one, uh,
thing that I heard that is a- a
fairly well-known quote of yours
is that you had the perspective,
and- and please tell me
if this is wrong,
that you had- operate from a
perspective that too many
decisions around schools are
made for adults and
not enough for kids.
Is that really-
is that one of your lines?
>>Pretty much, yeah.
I mean I think that- that- that
again, that perspective is-
is, um, y'know, there-
there's a lot of- of
champions and advocates for
adults in public education, um,
but few for children and...
>>Really?
>>...Certainly, uh, that's the
job of- of a superintendent.
Y'know, not that we-
not that we don't need
to look out for- for our-
all of our- all of the- the
faculty and staff and the-
and the adults that work
in a school system.
Our- our principals,
our custodians, bus drivers,
everybody- but- but they all
have other champions.
But the true champion
for children, that's us.
>>And you mentioned a few
minutes ago about taking risk.
Y'know, the newspapers,
all of those advocates for the
adults and all that, um,
everything is about the
measurement and the number.
Is risk-taking really
something that is encouraged
in public education?
>>I think that, uh,
playing is safe is- has been
more of the norm, and, y'know,
let me- let's face it, uh,
y'know, it's- it's risky to
stick your neck out there.
Um, there's a lot
of disincentives.
Um, the status quo
is the status quo.
I think it's long been what has
plagued, uh, public education,
particularly low expectations.
>>Well it's interesting that you
mention that because you've been
criticized in lots of
different quarters, you've been
praised a lot as well.
But one of the fascinating
things that, uh,
I'd love to get your reaction to
is that on one hand, um,
there've been some from the, uh,
higher wealth schools that
academically have performed well
in- in the more middle-class
neighborhoods,
who've said that Superintendent
Raymond needs to be the
superintendent for all kids,
not just poor kids.
And that he's discriminating
against us.
On the other hand you've had to
make some very painful decisions
on school closures in,
what have been predominantly
in many cases,
poor minority neighborhoods,
for which some of the residents
and parents have said
'He's discriminating against us
because we're underserved
neighborhoods without
a lot of political clout.'
And, y'know, it kinda
raises a question which is,
well, both can't be right.
[laughter]
>>No, I don't think- I don't-
I don't think either side is,
um, is correct and if you
look at my, uh, y'know,
what we've accomplished and what
we've done in the school
district from, y'know,
expanding and replicating really
successful programs, um,
building on our gifted and
talented, y'know, creating,
uh, an international
baccalaureate pathway now.
Uh, K-12, um, bringing in-
passing two school bonds
that are gonna help to- to
really bring our schools, uh,
up to the 21st century,
particularly in regards
to technology.
And our superintendent priority
school initiative, which-
which went after the- the
seven predominantly high,
100 percent poverty,
majority minority schools in the
most neglected neighborhoods.
>>Tell us a little
bit about that.
What- what are those schools,
exactly?
>>Uh, well Oakridge Elementary,
Fern- Fern Bacon, uh,
originally Jedediah Smith,
now Leataata Floyd,
Hiram Johnson, Will C. Wood,
Fern Bacon, Rosa Parks.
These were- these were schools
that were performing,
by all measures, at the bottom
of our- of our-
of our school district.
Um, low throughout the
state of California.
But more importantly, um,
when you visited these schools,
y'know, these-
these weren't exciting
places to want to be-
to want to be, um, a student,
to want to be an adult working
in- in those schools.
I mean, even the physical
condition of those schools,
in my opinion, y'know-
y'know, was despicable.
They had been neglected and
they had been overlooked.
And our thinking was,
was that even though
times were extraordinarily
tough in California,
we needed to something bold, we
needed to do something radical.
We needed to-
to show our community,
we needed to show the state and-
and even the nation, y'know,
what can happen when people come
together, um, around a idea.
>>So what are the results?
>>Uh, well six of the
seven schools have-
have done extraordinarily,
um, by all performance measures.
Y'know, academic achievement,
Father Keith B. Kenny,
for instance, started at-
at 630, um, for their API,
which is one, um,
large measurement in California.
Um, the Bellwether mark
is over 800, they're at 813.
>>And this is at school
in Oak Park?
>>At school in Oak Park on
Martin Luther King Boulevard.
Y'know, and the fascinating
thing that people don't-
don't realize is some
of the best performing schools
in Sacramento County now
are in Oak Park.
>>Really?
>>Both district schools and
charter schools.
It's- it's an extraordinary what
the community has to choose from
And, y'know, that often-
that often gets overlooked.
Y'know, Oak Park,
seen as the poorest, um,
most neglected neighborhood in
Sacramento, um, now has, um,
some of the best schools.
>>Drill down for one second,
though, Keith B. Kenny, uh,
give us- give us some of the-
the socioeconomic
characteristics of the
kids at this school.
>>Well it's a-
it's 100 percent poverty.
>>100 percent poverty.
How many kids get
school lunch there?
>>Um, all of them.
>>Really?
And- and- and they're exceeding
the states, sort of, objective
on their performance scores?
>>They've- they've grown 183
points in the last, uh,
three plus years.
>>What's the secret
to that success?
What, uh, just very shortly,
what two or three things?
>>Great leadership,
outstanding principal,
dedicated, committed,
hard- hardworking staff,
faculty and staff that-
that wanna be great.
They invest in greatness every
day, and they're completely
committed to children.
>>Alright.
When you survey the district,
or any district that you've
been to before, what's the
'rubber meets the road'
fundamental question as to
whether or not a school is
performing at the standard
it should, personally?
>>Well, personally,
are we gonna- are we willing
to do everything it
takes for children?
Are we gonna put their interest
ahead of everyone else's
interest and do whatever
it takes every day?
>>But as a consumer,
as a parent, as a consumer,
what should be our question?
>>Are you expecting the most
from- from my child every day?
Y'know, are you gonna- are- are-
are you gonna push my kid?
Are you- are you gonna
love my kid, right? Love 'em.
But push them- push them.
Because, y'know what,
I don't keep my-
my best child at- at home,
I'm giving you the very best,
so give them the best.
Give 'em everything you've got.
>>I've heard a line, which I
wanna get your reaction to,
is that a parent looking at-
at whether or not their local
school is where it should be,
should really ask
themselves the question
'If I just moved into
this neighborhood today,
would I want to send
my kid to that school?'
>>Absolutely it's a
fair question.
And, uh, y'know,
you gotta go visit that school.
You gotta walk onto that campus.
I mean, campuses have a look,
they have a feel,
they have a smell, the sounds.
I mean it's extraordinary.
I- I have the privilege of
visiting every- every one
of our schools, and every one of
our classrooms, and they're-
they are very different.
And, y'know, parents need to-
need to be active,
and for many of-
of our parents, though,
that's not their culture from
the countries that they
have come from.
So we need to make our schools,
um, engaging, we need
to make them welcoming.
They need to be places where
parents are- are-
are not only welcomed,
but they can be deeply engaged
and empowered to be part of
their children's learning.
>>And in- in terms of the-
the programs that
you've put into place,
and the innovations that you've
partnered with others on,
typically what is the role of
the teacher's union in working
as a partner, or working as,
uh, an adversary.
Have they been more supportive
of improvement or not?
>>Um, y'know, like I-
I think we've had our
disagreements, y'know, it-
it- it's- it's fair to say.
Um, I think it started when I
came to the district, I mean,
simply through the- the
fellowship program
that I attended.
Um, so, y'know,
our relationship, I don't think,
ever got off on a good foot.
>>Excuse me,
I'm not aware of that.
What fellowship program,
what's that relationship
to this subject?
>>Through the Broad Foundation
I- I- I was trained to be an-
an urban superintendent.
I- I didn't come up the
traditional path as- as a career
educator through the classroom,
as a principal,
as a district administrator.
That's the traditional way...
>>And your background was?
>>Uh, so I've come up, uh,
international relations,
I've- I've worked in- I was
running a non-profit, uh,
I've been involved in- in public
service for the majority of-
of my life.
I'm often criticized, uh- uh,
about being a- a private sector,
y'know, a private sector-
one of these cooperate
takeover kinds.
Y'know, it's- I even think
it's kind of amusing that people
in the education field, y'know,
don't do their homework,
even when it comes to
their superintendent.
>>Well, one of the criticisms
that- that is often heard is
that there a lot of these
programs that are bringing in
non-trained, at least through
the traditional route,
folks into public education
and that it- it is actually
harming schools.
And- and the couple of just
examples off the top of my head
are things like Teach of-
Teach For America, which, um,
I've heard criticisms
as displacing...
bringing these young people
in school is displacing
well-trained teachers
and actually, uh,
degrading the fabric of the
local education system.
Wha- what's your reaction
to that?
>>Uh, I don't mean to- I don't
mean to chuckle but look,
I mean if- if- it's one thing if
our country and our- and the
schools within our- our country
were performing at-
at the top of the world.
I mean, we just saw from the
program on international, uh,
assessments, or PISA, um,
that our country over the
last ten years hasn't
gained any ground.
In fact, we've lost ground to
countries such as- as Vietnam.
And that certain places within
our own country, um, like my
home town of Massachusetts...
if they were a separate country,
um, they'd be in the top ten in
many of- of these categories.
The fact is, Scott, that, um,
we're not doing a good job.
We have to be honest a-
about that, and so, um,
the way- trying the same
old approaches, y'know,
it's the same old traditional
pathways for educators to
run school systems.
Um, the same way we're
training and credentialing
our- our teachers.
And if we don't start changing
things and if we don't do it,
in my view, radically,
y'know our country is gonna
slip further, and further,
and further behind.
And yet every day we have
hundreds of thousands of
children showing up to school.
Um, parents giving us,
as I said, y'know,
their very best,
most precious assets,
expecting them to be educated
for career, college, and life.
And we just haven't
been doing that.
So, with all due respect,
y'know, to my critics,
y'know- y'know, show me where
it's working, y'know,
and you know what- OK, y'know.
But until we get to that place
we need to be trying as many
different approaches,
and replicating successes.
And, y'know, that's
been my approach...
look and see what's working.
I just bring different eyes and
a- and a different perspective.
>>So again, I ask the question.
Teachers unions: impediment or
asset to making those changes?
>>I think, uh, I think when you
go issue by issue, um, uh,
they've been impediments.
And, um, y'know, we're trying to
find ways to work with that.
But, y'know, we need
to go and look at the
issues issue by issue by issue.
Um, y'know, seniority-
seniority-based layoffs.
I mean the fact that, y'know,
you may have been hired two
weeks before me, Scott,
and you get to keep your job
and- and I don't, without regard
to anything such as performance,
such as attitude,
such as, y'know, ability to
continue to learn, to work
with your fellow colleagues.
Y'know, all those things
need to- need and should be
considered, not just when
your start date was.
>>Well let me give you
the counterpoint.
Last weekend I happened to have
dinner with a fifth grade school
teacher who was telling me
what life was like for her
in her classroom.
And she said
'Y'know, I have kids migrate in
and migrate out.
I have one child who,
in this school year alone, has
been to ten different schools.
We are the tenth school,
I'm his tenth teacher just
so far this calendar year.
Y'know, many languages.
Uh, children being raised
not only by, um,
single parents but sometimes
single grandparents because the-
both parents are- are gone or
not in the picture at all.'
And... with all of these
social issues sort of afflicting
these kids, her comment was
"Y'know, we're working-
we're working- we're working...
I love what I do,
but I'm exhausted."
What- what do you say
to that teacher who is
a part of those units?
>>Right, well I mean- I mean,
no question that our teachers,
I mean the vast majority of them
work tirelessly, and, uh,
they work really, really hard.
And our job is- is to give them
as much support as- as we can.
Um, and- and- but they also need
to know that- that, y'know,
they gotta work collaboratively.
They have to work together.
They need to contribute toward
their own, continuous,
life-long learning.
Um, and that's what we're here
to try to help and- and support
them, and to work with them on.
No question that, y'know,
class sizes are at their all-
their all-time highs,
not only in our school district
but around California, y'know,
and that play into it to a-
a certain degree.
>>Class sizes?
>>Class sizes to a
certain degree,
I think at certain grade levels.
But I will say that, um,
that there's no question that
our school districts and urban
school districts in general,
particularly with- with high
poverty minority children,
y'know, face
different challenges.
And- and face more
extreme challenges.
>>Well- well you mentioned a
thing about class sizes.
Now interestingly enough, the
theorist, uh, Malcolm Gladwell
>>Right.
>>Who has written all of these
business books, uh, y'know,
over the past decade or so,
came out with a new one
called David and Goliath.
And in that book, he actually
does a section on class sizes,
and that the- the sort of
conventional wisdom is-
is reducing class sizes
is a universal good.
But that actually on the
studies that have been
done there, I guess around
250 around the world,
that after a certain point it's
a law of diminishing returns and
that that is not a panacea
all by itself.
>>No, I totally agree.
Um, I will say though,
at different grade levels,
y'know, that size does matter.
[laughter]
>>What's more important is,
um, whether or not there's
an effective teacher
in that classroom.
And that's where I think we have
to start to go, which is,
y'know, how do we best
measure effectiveness.
And a lot of research has just
come out that shows that,
y'know, disadvantaged children
don't have as much access
to effective teachers.
>>Right.
>>And that's why programs
such as Teach For America,
y'know, are so important.
Because, um, they get
extraordinarily talented,
bright, smart, young people...
Now I understand, y'know,
that- that- that they are new,
beginning teachers, but, y'know,
these young people want to go
work in these most
disadvantaged schools.
They want to provide, um, the-
the best education possible.
Not that other teachers don't,
but, uh, but that- that- that
issue around effectiveness is
one that we've gotta really
start cracking down on.
>>Let's talk about- let's talk
about workforce development and-
and the business community
for a moment.
Um, y'know, part of
the continuum is is that
your kids graduate so that that
way they can take their place in
the workforces of the future,
go on to college, all that,
and live happy,
productive lives.
But I have to tell you,
and I wanted to get your
reaction to this, um,
in some of the conversations- in
many of the conversations
that take place,
from a regional perspective,
the business community likes to
focus on 'higher ed.', not K-12.
Now there are exceptions
to that, but do you
think that K-12 schools,
not just Sac. City Unified,
but within this region,
get the support from the
business community that- that
talks all the time about the
educated workforce it needs,
that they're puttin' in the time
and the effort to help
superintendents like
yourself get the job done.
>>Okay, so I would say-
I would say no,
and that's changing.
When I first came to Sacramento
and one of the things that
when I asked um, uh,
Mayor Kevin Johnson, uh,
"Where's the business community?
Why aren't they more
engaged in our schools?"
And, y'know, he kinda chuckled
and he laughed, he said
"You gotta give 'em
a reason to."
And- and- and part of
what our focus around
priority schools was was to
do something so bold
and so transformative,
and to create these
schools of innovation, uh,
that would catch
peoples' attention.
And, y'know, fast forward now,
we have City Year. Right?
It's a near-peer mentoring
program, uh, happened
to be founded 25 years
ago in my hometown of Boston.
But it- it brings young people,
often young people who have
grown up in that community,
back for a year of service.
Uh, they do before school,
during school, after school,
they're on weekends.
You see them throughout
our community,
they wear yellow jackets.
>>Right, no, and I've seen them.
And just incidentally,
I have to give a
commercial away, which is-
or a disclaimer which
is that I one time sat on the
board of City Year, so...
>>Okay, okay... so, um,
my point is is that those teams,
which we have 55 core members in
our priority schools right now,
five of our priority schools.
Um, they're- they're supported
by cooperate sponsors.
>>But what do you say when,
uh- when these conversations
take place and we talk about
building, for instance,
the initiative today is
called Next Economy.
And we're gonna do all these
great industries and create
these clusters of activity,
and all we talk about,
at least there was a point,
it's changed now and
it's gotten better,
but in the beginning it was
talking about importing people
from the Bay Area,
and from Portland,
and from Seattle.
And it didn't focus very much,
and thankfully it has changed,
on growing our own kids
in these neighborhoods.
>>Right.
>>Give us a message for the
business community and the
political leadership on what we
need to do to connect the kids
in the neighborhoods you serve,
to the jobs that we are all
working so hard to create.
>>Well I wanna give- I wanna
give kudos to, y'know,
John Di Stasio at SMUD and
Senator Darrell Steinberg.
I mean, y'know, they get it.
And in fact we've created
partnerships, um,
that work through career
academies and pathways,
which is really preparing our
kids- we call it Linked Learning
here in California,
but it's- it's preparing our
kids to not only be successful
in school, it's giving them
the career technical
education competencies.
They get work-based learning
opportunities,
but it's bringing these
partnerships together.
We've created our own- our own
partnership, um, between energy,
science, and engineering
with SMUD operating at two
of our high schools right now.
So, they get it.
They get it
for their own purposes,
but they're- they're also a
community, uh, champion.
And Senator Steinberg,
through his- his work,
has said that, y'know,
these are the kinds
of programs we need to
go to make school more...
>>What- what achievement
during your tenure
are you most proud of?
>>Uh, no question,
our priority school work.
Because what we've shown is
is that children,
irrespective of their
zip code, y'know,
can learn to the highest levels.
And we can do it in
our own district,
and that's what I think some of
our critics never really,
y'know- that we did it with our-
our own teachers.
We didn't close these schools,
we didn't convert them
to charter schools.
We have our own teachers and our
own principals that want to be
great and- and- and excellent.
Our kids are performing.
>>In- in our final moments,
give this region a bit of advice
on how our- what we need to do
to make sure that our results
meet our expectations
with regards to our kids.
>>Yeah, well, we gotta
make public education
our number one priority.
Y'know, we can argue
about issues and,
y'know, we can disagree,
but at the end of the day,
y'know, Sacramento needs to
come together, y'know,
to create almost a social
compact that says public
education is the most important
thing in our community-
preparing our children.
And no matter what it takes
we're gonna do what it can-
what- what we need to do to make
our children succeed, 'cause
this is our number one team.
At the end of the day, that's
what it has to be about.
Not that I can opt out,
or I can move to the suburbs,
or I can put my kids in-
in private school.
Y'know, that can't
be the excuse.
>>Well said,
Superintendent Raymond.
Best of luck to you.
>>Thank you, Scott.
>>Alright.
>>Best of luck to Sacramento.
>>And that's our show.
Thanks to Jonathan Raymond and
thanks to you for watching.
For Studio Sacramento,
I'm Scott Syphax.
See you next time,
right here, on KVIE.
♪♪
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