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each one of these
individuals up here today
would say this themselves
they don't see themselves as the experts speaking for the church
but they're going to share what they believe
that's a very individual thoughts their individual journeys
in fact this entire event this weekend
i think those who have organized it recognize that there are many things
that have probably been left out that could have been added maybe should have
been at
the suspect number one this is the first trial
will learn from this and we'll move on from here and those of you there live
ask questions
that have come up and talk to the individual presenters organizers
those have not been ignored and they have been register
they have been hurt
and i think that that would be uh... definitely
part of the equation
as the organizing group and the the local conference here the union
conference
decides what steps to take to move on from here how do we
how do we understand vest
how to really live our faith in our mission
with all of us together uh... using the body concept of of scripture to move
ahead
or a couple of other quick note
number one
we had a few questions that dealt with
why didn't this event do this or that and i would like to differ
those questions
if you have an opportunity to talk to
those who organize whether it be
sherry or alphonso here
who helped organize that there was really got there
the folks up here have been asked to participate
i'm not sure they can adequately answer that kind of a question
but there were some of those questions that also included very important
questions that i think they can answer
and will try to direct at least that part of the question
to this group up here
not try to dance around that i'm just trying to say
i think they can definitely answer one part but maybe not the other
another part of the uh... the questions that we may
look like we're aborting but adjust
i don't know who is the core of what the group here is prepared to
to relate to today
with the answers more in the political round
what should we do politically regarding gay marriage things like that it what
the legislators legislatures moving ahead on
we're gonna try to relate most of the questions if at all possible
specifically to our churches and our families
and two questions that relate to those particular areas
thanks for understanding that and if you have the other questions that did not
get answered
again
afterwards please come and by the whole one of the one of the group one of the
people
and and see if if they can at least follow-up on that way
uh... just to let you know as well what what i'm doing here i've got several
different things going on here to try to make sure we addressed as many of the
questions as possible
for the questions that came in electronica lee
thank you pat really worked well
really really too well almost
we had a lot of good questions but a lot of them are sort of group around similar
themes
and so if you don't hear your exact question
if you kept a copy of that and word for word are looking for it to be read
it may not be
it may be kind of oil into a composite question that other people had they were
very similar
and rather than asking
the same courts essential question about five or six times
who tried to boil in the sort of one
but again if you felt that
and i have this all the time when we had a articles are things for the gleaner
we think one thing
the writer thought another thing
and we guessed wrong and so i guess wrong any part of that
come and get me afterwards and
hold me to account on that
or at least ask one of the
panel members here maybe separately and make sure that you get an answer and i
apologize ahead of time for what i know i probably will have done
and editing some of these
alright other than that again
to stress that
this event is part of a journey and i know that many of you here
this afternoon high had a chance to talk with some of you
represent various parts
vera differing pathways on the journey
and some of you feel that
your pathway may not have been represented
during this event here this weekend
again is learning process for assault
and i hope that as we move ahead as we move on on this journey
we will become
more inclusive in our thinking in our understanding
we were really listen
not just speak but listen
the old adage that were given to years of one now for a purpose
and when you do more of listening
sometimes we do speaking
speaking of listening and speaking we'd listen to these questions
and now as an opportunity to share them with our panel
and we thank you
this'll estrich group for being here today ano doctor quiche uh... has did
leave a little bit early
and i harry framed him by telling him that i mean after a hard question right
about time you have to leave
event so if he believes it's not because he is avoiding the question
this because he is on his way
going on his journey
back where he needs to go thank again for being here so we have a professor
we have a couple of pastors who are actively past rain right now
we have eight ferric dust
and we have wayne show we call you redeemed
okay
can we also a
weaponry being fatal we are all and guards
and guard will reading people
even in our broken this
rabin because of him not because of us
we have a uh... we have a group here that's willing to answer and again i
will say that i had planned
to actually spent some time with this group saying here's some of the
questions thank these through
we didn't get better
this is really off the cuff off the schools so to speak
all right so here's appears a question
and again thank you for for writing some of these in here
here's a question and it it goes like this and we're going to make sure i keep
my electronic thing working here
how do you respond to those
who believe the bible text that speak to homosexuality only refer to licentious
or promiscuous behavior
and not same sex monogamous relationships
they are all too eager to him sir
my challenges that use
we're assuming and we're trying to read something into the bible of the bottom
ever since
tonight another one of these cases don't make the bible sailor dozens
uh... we may wish for a different whatever but
you know whenever we we start saying well a paper think it might save this
search could include that
you know it it just it just doesn't
and i i could expand on that but i
i hold a very high regard for scripture
and i really need to measure myself by a naidu by me
any other thoughts on that particular
vantage point
finding where i read about homosexuality bottle i don't see a thing
this on the applies to promiscuity this on the applies to someone in aids same
sex monotonous relationship
again god's word says that you know he's the same yesterday today and tomorrow
and and his work speaks clearly to me
rivalry for with this one uh...
this one says i'm aware of the where
that any of our churches twenty-eight fundamental beliefs
directly address the gay issue
if it is not right or wrong according to our basic doctrines then why should it
be such a problem in our church
when i wonder how many fundamental beliefs would be have
he in the east she would be quoted by one of them
they respond
on lifestyle
and dot includes lifestyle
any other cogent thoughts lucille additionally com
holt doctrine of solar scripture
the bible is the only rule of faith
and if we believe that the bible is the word of god
and we need to take it as it says it
and and that includes homosexuality in other *** sins too
uh... steve we've been thinking outright but the packet that you have in your
hands
of middle is there a very full weekend
they may be the first time you've ever seen
those statements at the church is written on marriage
and then on same-sex relationships and then even on uh... same-sex marriage so
the church has has spoken this although it's not one of the twenty eight
that it is
has seen his his issues have come to the forefront
to engage at that time so i think is an overall brought
picture and concept the pin church faces issues as they arise
whenever we're gonna quote the bible on any issue we need to make sure were
quoting it in the spirit of the bible
a lot of times we we do a lot of coding and you can get some very vitriolic
quoting of the bible going on
let's make sure that were quoting it in the spirit of the biol
because that
ends up sometimes something a lot different
we might sound
great let me just mention to you we have attempted to appear in this because we
want
each of our other presenters who worked sitting on the edge of their seat on the
front row here
the jump up
and take a mic anytime they feel so inclined to go ahead and respond as well
uh... looks like ron has taken the dates of go ahead
you know i've many times a website ministry ninety criticism from people
around the world they're dealing with the gay issue in
this question comes up a lot
the when you're talking about
i found i just turned around and ideas thinking you
share with me coming to me the bible so clear
i mean if a man live with a man like as a with a woman i mean a happier doesn't
how much clear doesn't need to be
so i just think
can you share with me enlighten me can you share with me one text of scripture
that
shows god's god's approval misbehavior
infusion
instead of
my trying to defend what is so plain to me
can you just share with me
biblically where you're coming from the show me where the word of god
specifically condones this kind of behavior and then we can have a
discussion
and i never get a response from that
from that point on the question is gone
shell me from the word of god your point of view
still me from the word of god monetary them always
from the word of god
not your opinion on my opinion
no word of god
alright rhonda and by the way we also have lease in vienna
and mike up here as well so they may jump up from time to time as well and we
appreciate that
uh... more questions guest yes dr mun weakening
i think we enter into very dangerous territory
personally
when we take the words and of the bible and try to fit
genentech our perspective or our needs we should be fitting into the word of
god
here's a question
ivig a friend who calls himself a christian and lives and openly gay
lifestyle he said to me
god doesn't create mistakes
i didn't know what to say or even if i should say anything right
i discontinued eleven accept him as a friend and pray for him
anything else i could do or should have said
i'd like to res
i'd like to respond to that
the fact is is that
god created only
perfect people
and that was adam indeed
the rest of us were born with this thing that's an honest
god doesn't create mistakes
but a lot of mistakes have been made in this world
uh... everyone of us come into an imperfect world were with imperfect
uh... heredity
guide in creating a those imperfections
we are scarred where bumped along we are kicked around
uh... but by god's grace we can come to a spiritual maturity
that is the creation of god
but the chaos that gets us there
i'm not going to give him credit for that committee give him credit for
rescuing me how to cut the chaos man
i find the expression
me state
identifying human being as being in the state
too harsh
i don't think we can see that
i don't think there are a few men being said in the states
they're human beings that blew me state
that act
he mistakenly
so
i think that uh... with uh... with uh...
open mind
we have to
considered
people
that different than house
as much normal human beings as we are
i have a support group and for two years there's a young man
that keeps calling me
andy's on was nineteen when you say he's not going one now
and every time he calls i'd never focused on
on whether it's a mistake or not or whatever it is
everything i say within his is been my experience and and and how bad is dealt
with me
and the victories of his kidney and one of the things that that we have in
common is that we have the opportunity that to experience both perspectives and
one of the things that i was always looking for ways
by this chip on my shoulder kamon effendi kamon
you know tell me that i'm you know clear or tell me that
enormous intern and then go to hell
and so sometimes those questions are almost
trying to provoke us or or trying to provoke
an answer that they want to justify their situation
and so instead of that you know what i have basically i an expensive from this
young man
and on all the time is up to supported in plugged in
uh... one of the things that that i said also several years ago as quick telling
me what i'm doing is wrong
and show me that there's a way out
and so i think the best thing that we can do is to not worry about that and
and not even go there because
their understanding may be different than ours and their circumstances in
situations
you know have been formed by something other than where we are at
and so what we can do is weekend say hey this is my situation i was where you're
at all i know is that this is what god has done for me i wouldn't think i could
change i didn't even want to change i'd tell people i go i didn't choose to be
straight i didn't even choose to be gay
but my children's is christ he began his journey and you know what
he gave me that
those understandings in those feelings as
as one started to leave the other one started to calm it was never a choice
for me and so i try to respect the other person from where they're coming from
and recognize that they may be trying to provoke a little bike and you're right
to monitor of the river is gonna take your place in the store george really
need and wanting to say something
did you uh... abdicate the throne to verena ok i dislike underlined what mike
was saying and also in
having coming from this perspective
and we get a lot of calls we get a lot of emails me my sister
from all kinds of people given from individuals begin from parents begin
from on calls and answer and friends
the thing is
when someone's asking a question such as this
and their asking
etc if god makes mistakes
that's actual projection
they're seeing themselves as mistake
and that's what needs to be minister to
that that's the way b c
the way they see themselves as the way the think god sees them
and that's what needs to be minister to
critical
when someone's asking the questions such as this
'cause no one sixty
it's why do they see themselves me
and so ministry to the soul
that really in san
and i just wanted
good thank you very
here's an interesting one at uh... it uh... it says this is says what your but
what about we hear a lot about the word change
change change we need to change change this but it seems that the underlying
there's this underlying tone
of achieving heterosexual marriage as proof of healing
what would you say to that is that necessary for proof of healing does god
heal in different ways than just turning someone who previously identified as day
and to a heterosexual marriage partner
who wants to tackle that
and i hear a redeemed and say so
but would you say
ike say that hits a very wrong nerve with me
in our on are sites that offer
for four years
that caught
has blessed me believe
and i've heard by ministry colleagues say this
and i've heard
you sitting here say
you know that god may be leading
them to uh... marriage you know are that they have a desire for marriage
or that you expect marriage
as proof
of my redemption with jesus christ
you say no
but i fear it in the presence of the room it's like elephant in the room
where ryko
and maybe it's an issue with me
there are a lot of cape people who won't come back to the church
because the expectation is to be heterosexual
and to me
it's not about a *** identity jesus christ
it's about the beltway intimacy with him and i
i have same sex attraction
everyday
i think women are beautiful i'm not motivated by sex to engage with a woman
to come so that i can be acceptable to you and to jesus christ
i havent intimacy with jesus christ and if it means that i must live in celibacy
with him
intel p put somebody a woman in front of me that i fall in love with
and that's the way it's going to be
because i have a lot of jesus christ
and if he he owes me to that degree
cripple praise him for a and if he doesn't i will still praise him for it
i think this goes further than just uh... gay individuals
what about our singles in the church
what about people who have gone through a horrible
heterosexual marriage
we consider them when you're not well until your remarried
happily
uh... god forbid you do that
five with williams from university was
here
the hospital adults medical center in she presented there
uh... for a week of prayer
in the first day we talk second eight
she said to me
i still feel like
the church does not affirm
the gift of celibacy
that there's still people who are
i think it's a might my kids that truth culture thing
and that is the church culture is
by no means
christ culture
we know that
in i think that's what what i heard her speak uh... this is this is big circle
your saying scott
the pressure on single people believe repeat make you feel as though they're
not complete
in the body of christ mister mary
i think is a tragic thing
i'd like to add just one thing
i get the question frequently and might cure
pickles units are here and no gas lanphear because pickles go through
quite a process to be a pickle
all right back at the pressing sakhalin wayne acting in this
this now twelve years and again
might goal was never to be straight back
as an advertisement will be to give up my boyfriend but as i've been on this
journey
god doesn't judge the outside judges the heart is not right and so i do i go to
church as to when they go so are you getting someone are you married we went
to africa and this one i want to give me a wife and i'm like ok you know that's
gotta timing on all that
but the amazing thing is is afterward twelve years of walking with jesus
christ
he's all i want as a matter of fact to go one week without an elicit situation
or to have a boyfriend
praise the lord i've been twelve years without somebody in my bed and when i go
to bed at night jesus is the last person that i talked to and when i wake up in
the morning he's the first person i speak to in the morning and it satisfies
it feels to me
and so yes i still struggle with same sex attraction
but what's wonderful is philippines diversified is so simplistic i clean the
mind of christ he washes me in that love and it goes away and what's been amazing
is that i have inside and and i'm not looking for a but then all the sudden
women start to look very different to me now than they ever did before and i can
praise god for that as well
right this way weighing just wait restructuring
off i'm not sure if yes please i'm so sorry lisa dot therefore i forget
have to share this
uh... because i was in indiana here two weeks ago
and on there was a lady refrain research and analytics pickets church in
and she was three quarters of the way back in it came to the
question-and-answer period and she said you know i
act and trying to minister to those that i know are gay and i work with somebody
who's gay and
and i told them that i'd love them so much better
but i didn't believe that that they were living according to the way that god had
intended and
and so she said that just told him that i was praying for me and she said the
next day
he came
and he hugged me
and he gave me a pic tight squeeze isn't and then next day and then next day and
then next thing i was starting to look like harassment and she says
i was starting to wonder what kind of a fact that i had had on him and and so
i'm not sure how to minister and i said while uh...
you know that's not usually the response that i can about somebody's reaching out
and giving somebody a hot
but i said let me just write this
and so i went all the way back
to wear street clothes
it hard
and that i came back and i thought that weight and i'm not going on at i'd like
to know what i have to get that there is not burdened going on with you you know
i want experience itself
culture markets the here
hispanic leaders and handling in my
white mister
you know i think that
the enemy would love for us to think
technique
that will define you being killer or
you know holy redeemed
teases
texas from one b r
stiffed me step
we could rule
and into what he's wanting us to be
antiques trying
and maybe i'm not at my sisters
uh... stage where she's
having its height
and very open to it but i'm not
what god has in store for me where there's gonna be married are or single
okay 'cause
jesus is my husband
he's my number one
back to accept
all right we're gonna turn a corner here and uh... let's ask this question
and this is a this is it make you think here
says we're only hearing from gays and lesbians who fit the church is more than
actually promote it
that isn't my experience with the vast majority of cases ido
who just leave because they have tried mightily but can't live up to the
church's requirements
how do we treat those other several questions here in try to keep track of
these
how do we love someone who doesn't think they need to at least at this time the
some of it
they have their own relationship with god that seems very strong
some have children
where will they take their children to church
and we wouldn't expect a divorce slash we married heterosexual family
most of whom did not get divorced for spousal infidelity
to leave the kids in a broken home to be part of our church
why do we seem to advocate this for gays when we don't parental sections
we seem to be putting out a message that you are only welcome unload if you agree
an act the way we currently expect
jump in
you know i ike
in my presentation that i give us a you know we asked
for prayer for a lot of things you know you many of you would raise your hands
say please
great for me i'm struggling with
that's right out of the other we don't see people comparable raising their
hands and saying please pray for me i have same sex attraction
uh...
and then we have the flip side i don't think it's the case that this is
with heterosexuals that we don't jump again if someone's living in an open
senate um... it maybe not in some congregations by the believe that there
are pastors in many congregations or people in many congregations that will
go to the person
um... who is living in opens and as we are directed and matthew
uh... to collapse in individual
and ask that person to repent and she says
uh... with regards to thus and that that they are living and openly and if they
continue in that stand where to go back with a brother or sister under prayer
and under lock and challenging that person to come to the prosecution's
price
and then actually there is
is price given to us on for just a plan
and i think that if discipline is necessary
that it must be under
prayer and great love for the individual
so that if discipline has to take place
that person will not be at the church no without knowing that they are deeply
lopped
orders garner george from a pastoral viewpoint you might have some additional
thoughts there
i think this question really gets down to where the rubber meets the road
because
i think we really need to put ourselves in the shoes of the person who comes
ture
that is often a very big cold or with a lot of expectations that they
don't feel they can measure up to
and a lot of that
too many times when i found is
the baggage in the hertz that they carry around
that lisa contributed to wear there
our church related
and so the whole how was the church is going to be
different from what they've experienced
that newspaper question
and and i don't know that we probably got enough hours in this day yet to i
think
i think we need to have a whole weekend
on how to really honestly minister to that person
because
with anyone who
whose lifestyle might be different than are s
in that can be a no-holds
maybe issues not just ***
do we really know
along them and make them feel comfortable around us
without feeling judged by us
there is a very
flying into
are we forever dropping little hints
are we ever spot we said well i hope you heard this about that uh...
do we really know what it's like to just love them forward
unconditionally
if we start putting conditions in front of it
they were ridiculous targeting the trouble with it
now what i'd have found what is that i can very often tell this type of person
you and i are going to be equal suppressed
now i want you to know that privately
i have
i have another dream for you
when you're ready to talk to me about that when he
you know what it is would you want to talk to me you come to me but between
now and then were discovered journey with jesus
i have found so many people all over the years
and by the way you can put time this formula
it may take a long long time
but they will respect me more going that and not compromise
for myself to in order to love them
because that would again be conditional love
when they can know that you know what
i'm reading honestly consider you as my people
now there's some things we disagree on
but that is not the basis of our friendship and love
now back take some work to get there
i admit that but i think that's where we have to get
because i think that's workings
i saw dr ball and george start to say something you still thinking of
something ok after ball first
any sort of
does not happen overnight
it's a process
and we have to allow people to go through that process it may not happen
in our time
as if they request i would really sometimes liked it
hurry up the process but you cannot
so each individual has to be able to moved that their andre and our job
within the church
is to love that person through the change
a person will never
change in an atmosphere of judgment
or repealed
three only change in an atmosphere of acceptance and laugh
and if we have
understood and accepted the gospel the graciousness of jesus
to individuals who are all sinners
we're saying quite greenstein marriage in favor
white can we knew
looked at people with in the church through those same gracious ice
i'd glasses
we need to learn to be more gracious i'll love make church
but i have also seemed that within our church we'd like to play holy spirit
henry really
eat do as church members need to resign as chairman of the board of the universe
as passes
i think i heard of that question
carted part of that question
dealt with the
this inconsistency
uh... dealing between heterosexual
sin and and and homosexual
it's like the pain of saying boy look at this hotel church treats
heterosexuals look how they treat us and this goes back that whole thing of
this mindset that says the chief among all senses homosexual
in a in the pain that that though i think it's pins from that
so this this
there's nothing harder another scott i believe you'll
really in a mere slimy served as a pastor of it
there's nothing harder
them when you're trying
and work through
everytime there's gotta be
holy spirit lead
innovate so many mistakes of the unite itis try to support please don't let me
do the wrong thing here
this is your child you love them
hot meal of the middle of jesus it is
what what i would want everyday person to know that comes might come visit my
church
you're part of my church has that
i will pass to the whole territory
i've not been a single anybody out
as a pastor sometimes we know all lost
a lot of stuff we wished we didn't always know
and sometimes we keep a lot of secrets that we keep in good faith
but the same time we are still praying and passing people forward
and again you cannot put time with that's because you get very discouraged
with it
some of these issues you just have to leave and god's house
because some many of our hearts of the church are so deep
you know
in our pastor we won't see a true
yet and
sometimes the perfectionism
that we've dealt with over the years enters into it
that can be a big part of the baggage
the gay person who won't walk through the doors of my church icy wants
to one
one of two things if not both
unconditional love and acceptance
and they want to know
that i believe they deserve to be at the feet of the crops
i think there's another part to the question that involve children
and as everyone knows here now
i do have a child in a chair
with her first mother
legal stepmother
i would like to think that my daughter would walk into a church monday
and be loved and accepted
because there's nothing we can really do to change your situation right
so here's the thing about expectations
i don't think we should even have
an expectation of change
that's not our job
we should in in
how expectation
sorry i get fired up to this
because it's our eyes are fixed on press
and it work wonders
ease act across
then there's no that's the case
it's the work of the holy spirit
i tell you a personal experience every time i heard an expectation from my own
mother it drove me further and further away
from the church
i give credit to the holy spirit because that was conviction at the same time
so why are we concentrating and focusing on expectations
three single one of the should be fixed
on the crowds
than that expectations
between cranks individual
nice and if we are not focused on change but rather on healing amen
then we'd be coming instruments
to award that healing
as opposed to judges who push people adam their time
we will need to think outside of the box because expel you
as a shared earlier that i was molested as a child it wasn't so much the
molestation that was
problem
it was a part of that
but it was the reaction
it was the way my parents treat acted
incident
that was equally town a chain
how are we react
we don't know that we do need to move on here i will emphasize are running out of
time what what she said regardless if it is wrapup stuff feeling about
verses the and
healing is a
long-time which we want the finished product but which she said healing is
what it's all about and i can take a lifetime
here's a practical question
what if my gay son wants to come
with his partner for a week and visit
we don't believe in *** intimacy outside of marriage
but i'm afraid they won't come if we make them sleep in separate rooms
is it appropriate to ask them to respect our beliefs in this area
mike you're just a heads up
it would anyone like to respond to that can i discovered
estimated may just kind of clean air twenty dollar when my dad was updating
his girlfriend and they were married and they came to my sister's house she made
them sleep in separate bedrooms she said you know it doesn't matter if you're gay
or straight year you're not married and and
you know my house is dedicated to god and that's how i want to raise my
children and
you're welcome to come we love you we encourage you week we can't wait to
visit with you but you cannot sleep in the same room anyone else
want to add
before doctor quiche
abdicate his throne here this evening i want to ask them a quick question
and this is just very simple one dancer
so no pressure
astra
he didn't want to simply know the title of the book that you mentioned
and several people have asked that you mentioned it towards the end of year
presentation do you have a handy does anyone else eureka cheery hasn't yet
either
all right thanks we will get to that and then it's apparently it really picked
some interest so thank you for sharing that
write another another practical question
our daughter is contemplating marriage
to another woman
something we are very comfortable with if she invites us to come to a ceremony
should we attend
or would that be condoning something we don't believe
you know
simply being somewhere doesn't mean that you approve of what's
what it does to you
is that it shows that you low
that individual and you drop their partner
and that you don't even have to congratulate them
right our union approx arguments but you can approach them tell them that you
about them both
that god loves them
and that you well always be there for them you are an open doors presented
ritual
you don't need to throw a big party or something for them to make it look like
you approve of what they're doing
just simply not and with about aki subscribe
chaotic
if you agree with mike about
someone coming over your boyfriend homepage you agree with his answer is
not clear up my parents did a lot of people
believe today that in order to a lot of your child care brother here sister
whatever
you must give into whatever it is that they want to do in your house
i disagree my parents loved me unconditionally for forty years in tibet
to prayer
i was welcome in their home i was invited to their home life
friends were invited to their home and lobbed by them but we did not sleep in
the same room together we respected
at people for whom we were in the home al
we get this question a lot
from parents that come to us for
to be minister to
and the one thing i'll say first esprit about it
seek the wisdom of the holy spirit
whatever i suggest doesn't matter
but it's true i wanted to get back on the plane sent
just because you're having dinner with someone doesn't mean you're can tony
you see we've forgotten tomb built
genuine connections with one another
aren't being genuine
with one another
in connecting an engaging
in each others lives regardless but our walk is so if you're being invited to a
wedding or a birthday party
i would encourage you to go
there's a certain ways to say things they're certain ways to act
if you're not comfortable there is
there's other options on how you could handle that
the whole
idea is used uses
cardigan cds is in you
last year and dole still bring
no exact
what you don't condone
so you don't need to worry about them but that
but you do need to have your own down berries and they are out they'll be okay
with that
and you also need to show them now
live that says that they don't condone your behavior but i love you and nothing
you can do tear makers
a quick comment from ronson who have a doctor king have moved into a different
perspective on this i mean to me
and had to institutions created at in the garden of eden your age on friday
sabbath the seventh day
in marriage
to me is a christians very sacred
institution
and i can think of many many ways that you can be with your loved one
and show them compassion
without compromise
tumi and this is my perspective
to attend any gay marriage
wid as a christian would be giving the signal
that i'm
and god
i'm participating in asking the lord is blessing
up on something that he has condemned
and so
uh... my perspective is as a christian
i could not attend a gay wedding
well i could attend a birthday party i could attend all kinds of things i can
go to dinner with them
that marriage is so sacred
it is a god created institutions like sabbath
and uh... so from the christian perspective
i happy
i can see that that that would be a wise thing to do
and that's that's my perspective
pontiff honest opinions from the panel here today
that dr king's before you need to runoff on your journey
tell us a bit more about that book and anyone that wants to write that
information down by the way we will we'll probably put that up on also the
gays in the family website to make sure that
that resources there too
buried with the first published in the last year
there was a conference
andrews university
and uh...
homosexuality and really issues
and there are several sections of the first one is to your logical issues
uh... reach dlisted my bible says and whether political implications
second one is legal issues
and we know how that relates to contemporary situation
and then counseling issues
and finally testimonies
um...
it has been published by andrew university press
and uh...
and remembering how the price
but you can find them out uh...
orchid bible
houses
and uh...
and the title is como sexuality
and the church biblical counseling and religious liberty nations
packages for with that accuse you were
one of the presenters there
that is where i first met wing bleakley
and
i've traveled
with greg hamilton
who invite mi tierra good part of the religious liberty from the north pacific
union
that that particular uh... conference it was in the year two thousand nine
was the first but i know the first really the church could jumping to
engage this question across all of those disciplines
it was a powerful four days in fact the movie we're gonna watch here in just a
few minutes
was dwight nelson's
actually presenting
at that conference it was that kind of the climax the last the last thing in
the pioneer world church in south
so it was it was really at the heart
of of the church beginning to look at it we must we must begin to giving answers
here
and there are some
alters
were not seventy advantage wife squarely
with us because that
dr king thank you for being with us uh... today and if you need to move
along
care couple of questions for doctor ball
bridge on the hot seat
says that there is heard here seem to st
that the vast majority of homosexuality stems from either trauma or abuse
wire your conclusions
different
and then there's sort of a
another one that goes along with that you can take him either
both there we can refresh it
what do you say to the american psychological association the american
people yet so she should
and the rest of the scientific community who believe same-sex relationships can
be healthy
and changing orientation is in fact damage
there's a lot
in fact they until recall that i said
that homosexuality is caused by trauma
what i didn't say is that
the com
aiding of testosterone
is paid by a lot c we as therapists we should look at things from the bio cycle
social
perspective
so the biological part is the beading
and need not least happen in terms of error
in that process
which predisposed as children
to in the fees of trauma
in society
too
allow themselves to start thinking
that there is something wrong with me
and to hold that kind of thinking in a secretive
manner so that no one is there to help to correct it
and land uh...
when that comes into fruition and someone tells that person that they are
homosexual that all of that stuff combined to gather
maybe
act applies but the reality is is no one knows including
the american psychological association
and why do i not agree with them because i'd take the bible
above any human
organization
the american psychological association also
re seeds much much pressure pressure
to conform to the game rights activists
other comments in my research uh... than i do a lot of research in the last few
months on this
i did not find that the
secular
psychological counseling world out there
and doris is the idea that especially for lesbians that is biologically cost
hi i found high-fiber ed specifically where they were sitting there for a
specially lesbians it's uh...
the majority of it is uh... socio cost
uh... notice things that happened in their life
not all but the majority of it
with men
it's probably more fifty-fifty is kinda what i began to pick a
and so lets the other fifty
biol two fifty biological fifty sociological in other words impact
on supply
question here
my friend comment of the other day that adminis are against gays in our hateful
how do we support our churches position on this issue
without being labeled as haters
that is why coming out ministries exists
we goes into churches today to change that tom
is a very strong
word to use up of the it would be more ignorance
and i believe that god
researchers for such a time is this because we would speak about our past
we would be blatant we would be open we would be transparent we would come into
your churches we would reveal ourselves to you
and we would reveal to you what jesus christ is done and our lives
and what he can do in any centers like
and it will change the tone of the people in the church i can't make a
abdicate
advocate for anyone
who wants to come to the foot across of jesus christ
i'd like to say that
wayne we invite you to pleasant valley
and
he was not without
anxiety
in in fact it took
i'm in the bears to say how many months too we could come to agreement
to say we're going to
allow this ministry to come into our church
but i want to tell you i
it was such a blessing to us it was so cute i just i still look back up that is
a
is a watershed moment in the life of our church
and i would encourage you to go home and talk your pastor and say
police invite coming out ministries to our church
inlet but god use them
because what he did they didn't just deal with gay issues
when you call the u
no it was just it was the issue of how what do we do with c_n_n_ calling all
the stuff of the cross it was so powerful
so thank you
alright my converter
writes
subha a couple years after i came out and left the church
i remember i was in a bar on a friday night and the guy beside me was ordering
a drink
and he said to the bartending 'cause all
happy sad
and then the bartender said oh yeah happy senate unlike i don't
the guy sitting beside me he also said happy sabbath
on a friday night i was surrounded by a by people on the soap one was really a
little guys
but all of us
had left the church because
nobody was talking about it
somebody told me that that the opposite of love is not hate
the opposite of lobbyists apathy citizen difference and so i think you and sell
you know we
the seventh administrator has that reputation of haters
because you won't talk about it
because you won't open a dialogue you won't open up opportunities for people
to get legitimate answers because either you're afraid of it
misunderstood
that we get the message of hate i think all of us can
can say that that's a message that we got from the church
and so again
the only way that we can offset that is just like this weekend this has been so
powerful
for me dot only in my own healing but
but finally seeing that the lord is really moving on those prayers that
we've been praying that that what did you would open the doors of this
ministry and you would start dialoguing and talking it's going to get
uncomfortable and painful
but the more we start doing it the more we're going to start seeing some real
changes in our
in our church it's not about
you know some of these little issues that we have about
you know goals for
on missionary endeavors or whatever it's really about getting to the needs of the
people and as soon as we start opening up these dialogues and which is
beginning this weekend
uh... go to your church's demand it from your conferences
demanded from your pastors because we don't have the voice that you have and
if they break it nice that you have any bail supply it they'll open up the doors
and more more information will come out about
dot the restoration and the redemption the jesus christ has to offer
and the other messages will just fall away
by the holdings linden street has been going from church to church for the past
three years
we've also incorporated prison ministry and um... evangelism schools
but the one thing that my sister and i have
been confronted with everytime
when negotiating
with church leadership
the skepticism
and it's
it can be discouraging
well we
but we'd like to give credit to the lord right
and so we just persevere and we know everything works in god's time
there was one i won't mention the church does one particular church it literally
to per year
communication
to make a presentation there
island finally the presentation happen liederman afternoon after afternoon
seminar
the pastor with the red face
came up to me
unsaid i'm sooo scarry
gave me such a hard time
the message is simple brothers and sisters it's the right to suspend fee
message
it's about prices righteousness
and this is of the whole spectrum
of sin
that's address
we don't just coming to your church and talk
and hiking homosexuality
all saying
wages than we want more predicted
uh... we've had difficulty getting into universities and into churches and
i'm not sure why because they don't know
what we're gonna say cuz we haven't been there but if you go to our website you
find that the messages about blah blah
and so
one of the reasons i've been given is that that what we're afraid that if you
come in you'll make gays uh... feel unwelcome
and i'm like
with and you don't know our message because our messages is that god loves
all of us and what we do we don't go in with a sledgehammer brilliant
without personal testimony and tell about what god has done for us
if they want to accept jesus christ
and comment share with us with their experience has been
and look for the hope in the healing that jesus christ that's wonderful
if they've rejected
that's their decision we don't force they can walk out the door and i pray
that anyone sitting in the room
what always continue to about that individual all along the pathway
there's a hard question for maybe for this group here but let's ask it anyway
as our church open to hearing the perspectives of people who currently
identifies k
such as those per trade and seventh-day adventist movie
or are we only interested in those who have quotes come out that identity
in september
win the forum was in town and
i saw that
uh... the movie seventh-day adventist would be we shoul be screen that
uh... i i think you are needed to be there
i want to hear these voices
i'd want to
too
i wont
i want as is
as someone who's been lulled by jesus i want to share that loves so that
that they know
that
that the church
the church is not see any appear looking down
but that the church as we
come to christ is brought to the full across in that we
struggle was sent along side
in that god has a way
will walk together so
i believe we must hear the voices
we must
create
it environment the wilds
the gay community to know they can come
in the doors are open
and we can talk together we can eat together we can search together
i believe this is crucial going forward
challenging things of being a pastor is you are
the conference appointed guardian
uh... pol pot
the thirteen years of a work in the organ conference well my main
responsibilities was planning camp meetings
and other events
we had so many
different groups
by talking about gay issues
so many different groups wanted to come to the organ conference camp meeting
i was always i was kind of the book reader you might say for the dbc
there was always a parade of books of people wanting a_b_c_ to care
and somebody had to make the decision
whether not this was wholesome
if we chose to build because we didn't feel it was safe
we would like the individuals to
come and sit down with us
and there were many growing processes that came about from that
sometimes we have to begin with small steps
you know the first time you asked a girl out if you ask her to marry rat
mary you it might be the last
uh... date you have with her
sometimes you have to journey out well together to see were each other's coming
from
and i really honestly think that the time has come
that be too lenient
the portal for salt body and sometimes the
periphery on this subject it is time for us to come and sit down the tables and
how to talk
it may not be at a forum like this it may not be at the general conference
we're not ready for that that is not the usual
process that these things
of any type of subject takes
but these are important subjects
hi i'm a firm believer
that the non attending gay people
piece of the others
and there are tens of thousands of them in north america
they are our brothers and sisters
and they do have a right to come and be her
because we don't know how we can assume we know where they're coming from
but let's join together in c work god takes us
without making
you know big promises to each other we might not be able to quite keep down the
road we don't know how long this discussion will take
but we need to have this discussion
dates
bothers me when i hear you church members being described as haters
and i liked what wayne said when he said that it's not so much
heating as it is endurance
uh... we need to keep in mind that our churches come out of a long history of
perfectionism
and a very equally long
history and matt anderson and in the past four
and if we believe
used in perfectionism
then what we believe n was that
seven habits had to be brooded out of our hearts and out of the church because
we would be coming to appoint of living without a mediator
thank god we no longer believe that is not but are there still
vestiges of that in the church yes
and that's what you're seeing hates it's people within the church who don't
understand
a lot of the issues that are being dealt with in
today's society
and it takes the pastors and other people like yourself
who can go back to their churches and begin to spread the word of the love of
jesus and the gospel
and the need to be able to look at one another through the eisen graciousness
we are close to being out of time i do want to ask each of you go
uh... in feel free bronner the survey on our mike to jump in as well
core fought one core values
one court attitude
no one else members anything else from this weekend
that you would want to leave with them
that to you
is court for the message you want to share
this weekend
one i would like to say is
decided journey to this question in the last several years of especially in the
recent months
one thing that
i heard very loudly and that is
argue brothers and sisters lesbians
one thing they want more than anything is to come to church
and i just want to say
we may not be perfect and i may not be perfect
but just come
let's journey together
we are family
imperfect as well
jesus said
go out to all the world
i think it's time for us to start thinking a building bridges
we need to build bridges with people we can
do anything else but just accept them
to make genuine connections with them
it's not our job
to change people
our job posting
make sure that the cgs it's nice
and that we see them
through the eyes of jesus
that has not no longer be intimidated by people who are different from us
let's build bridges
there's an interesting fact about uh... of fiberglass
none of us were reached out too
by the church
and are returning to jesus christ
we all returned because
and interestingly
we were toxic gas cooker everybody intervenes
he intervened in our individual lives at different points in in our lives but he
revealed the very same thing to its his lung
and districts
and to grow together you cannot walk and a compromise state
it doesn't work
an interesting at the interesting thing once is that while he brought us
together
out what what what do you reach this week divine intervention
protestant bike
divine
hume he made us find each other
and come together in unity on this topic
price so as going forward i would say
if you walk away from here remember to log but remember that you can love
without compromising the truth of jesus christ
it is my desire every single day to fall more and more and love with jesus
into lived by his word
doing his will not mind flashing well
all right we'll go with mike and and uh... lisa
and then uh... doctor baugh
and george you have the most time to think about what you want to say
might
the so the court t_v_
you talked about the court and i think about what the court is
and even in my trips back home one of the things that are really realizing
is confession and testimony time is really so vital because the more that
the church even starts to
to recognize the value in testimonies and just being authentic
and what happens is you create a safe place among your own members and then as
you create a safe place you can then create a safe place for other people to
come in the matter what it is and so don't worry about the homosexuality
issue period but just work on your stock
just are being authentic in your own church one of the most amazing things
that happen in the last summer is i had the opportunity to get my testimony in
my church that i grew up in
that my dad in my stepmother went to
now my mother is new-age minister who does healing in all kinds of stuff in by
inviting to the contents of my on testimony
she was very reluctant and when i was thirty three years old on the phone she
confessed to me that the only way that she can handle the fact that i want to
live with my dad when i was fourteen years old was to pretend that i was dead
and from thirteen to thirty three heat that's exactly how she treated me
and so it thirty three years old when she confessed that to me for the first
time she finally said something that fit
how i felt that she been treating me
it's a nothing really necessarily change but it fifty-two years old last summer
in august my mother came but she said don't say my name and she said don't
even bring me out
and so okay fair enough she wasn't even she was coming to her ex-husband's
church that he had an affair with the backs with madness of my mother sitting
in that
in that group right
so i said all the openly things about my testimony and
and and about the *** *** addicts in the homosexuality
the the total long
abandonment of on of safety demands having sex
and said this about a mile of the and at the end we had that question and answer
and my mother stood up with tears coming down her face
anchee she pointed
to me and she said that's my son
and then she turned to the congregation and she said on and so proud of him
and for the first time in my life
i finally got the validation that i'd never had even from my own mother and
i'm sorry that you don't know that
because what gives us the power and the strength to stand up here
and in any church or any venue that were invited to do in to talk about all the
ugly details of our life
is because every time i'm don and i come away
i'd get a little bit more healing
all the hudson trip in a kidney all the time did you come up to me and confirm
me
and let me know that your you're proud of your what god has done in my life
i can't just a little bit more anton sorry because some of you out there
aren't getting that
and as you have to start doing that in your churches
you'll all ten of the doors for all the people start coming in and seeing that
and back
through the holy spirit only is what is going to get us on the right page
thank you mike
went to them
comment on mike's um... comment
authenticity was a struggle for me from my whole life
and so do sharing is
something else he requires takes a lot of courage
in east hampton
if needed
if we want dealing with a few instances this process
so many times in your sister sheridan people just come up confessed to last
their minds
free
wilder comparisons to similar
take their confessions he's hilton
many times it's the first time telling us
cheering
and that secret
but the one thing i wanted to leave
we uh... file is that
recall mister
on seniors and rights
acting
hang onto the floor
in some way
and we know that
do not the champions the
you know what you're going to do
brother sister
cassini
thank you reset
ron we're gonna a move to you and then back here to dr lucy and then george
cool wrap things up with him
your question about it
one thought to leave
you have just one run points hahaha
diseases themselves and my grace is sufficient for you
and grace i've found defining the greek dictionary
is that divine influence to working up on my heart
collecting in the life i think that's all amazing that in that pagan language
grace is defined is divine transforming
and jesus said and uh... in the great commission
all power is given and to me manners
anything don't you dare foreign teacher on nations bad guys in
teaching and to observe
all things
whatsoever on
have commanded you
maligned with you always even into the end of the world
the whole planet salvation friends
is about transformation
for everyone
everyone becomes to jesus comes with baggage
and needs to be saved
frahm
cn
his c_n_n_
and that's what it's all about
that's our callers named jesus for he's just saying his people
from their sean's not me from what you're doing on time your sins
disgusting
big in the same even modestly in which you find is destined
and we need to do is realize a plan of salvation is about change if we'd come
to the lord not willing to be changed we're not accepting him is lowered
and master
and and we need to do
help people surrender
their will
to the wheel alarm lowered and master
image we love him we will render him on
questioning
obedience knowing that he is
live in everything you want from us
is for our own good as well
thank your honor
you need to recognize how difficult it is for pastors to say something so
quickly
highly appreciated
dr ball
well danced three sh
three short thoughts
my primary wish in desire and the minister of my life
is to spread the gospel
so my wish is that people
within the church would come to a greater understanding and acceptance
of the message of the gospel that everything god required of me
he provided for me and azmi and the person of jesus
and to let become a transformative energy in our lives
so that we can
portrayed that two other people and look at one another three gospel glasses the
glasses of graciousness
i don't know some of you know that a lot of the people that i see in their p_r_
pastors
from all different denominations
and i have one pastor in particular that i remember
because he had
had an affair
about twenty years ago and is still in that same church
where he had the affair
and the church members came and helped him to heal
through their acceptance at him
and that's my vision for the church at this point it's not bear
and and those of you who believe that same way we need to sbi spending much
time in prayer
that the church will come to the point of putting aside it's perfectionist
think additives
and taking on the grace of jesus
and for those of us who are hurting which is all of that
who every seemed moons as children that's all of us
date you will come to the point of being willing
to work through and cut badboy l
so that you can begin to receive the healing that jesus wants so much forces
week entering
toward the end of time
the first word as always
neither do i continue
because rolls of pilots to say
lemon lime
i've got a reversal
to say i'm sorry it's bubbles on the lips to say
lion and liam
heidi reverses stately and first
line
liam lam lampley in the matter how many times
seventy two and seven
neither do i condemn you that they would know the love of jesus
the same way he is lovely and forgive me separate times
thank you to our panel members for being willing to be
open transparent
open to both scorn and ridicule and thank you's uh... four-year willingness
to share honestly what you really believe in which you feel uncertainly
all of us of whether we're on a power not face the challenge
of making our churches
for seekers
for people who want to meet jesus to calm and feel like they are just as much
a part of the family
as any of us are
because we all have something great in common
and that is the need of a savior as savior who wants us to come to him
and why shouldn't our churches be the one place where it's safe to do that