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News Anchor 1: Next our special report. Fox News is live at the Koger Center in Columbia,
South Carolina, where later tonight ten GOP candidates square off at the Fox News "First
in the South" presidential debate.
News Anchor 2: If you're one of the minor candidates or what is considered one of the
minor candidates right now, how do you punch through?
Commentator 1: One way to do that of course is to take on in some way one of the major
candidates. And so far that hasn't happened in any of these debates really on either side.
Commentator 2: I think Iraq will be a dominant issue. It is the issue of our era and there's
going to be a lot of questions about that.
Voiceover: As Fox reports live from Colombia, South Carolina, demonstrators for all the
candidates are out, proving to be a blockbuster night.
Voiceover: You Decide 2008. The "First in the South" Republican presidential candidates
debate. Live from the Koger Center on the campus of
the University of South Carolina.
Chris Wallace: Congressman Paul, you're one of six House Republicans who back in 2002
voted against authorizing President Bush to use force in Iraq.
Ron Paul: Right.
Chris Wallace: Now you say we should pull our troops out. A recent poll found that 77
percent of Republicans disapprove of the idea of setting a timetable for withdrawal. Are
you running for the nomination of the wrong party? (Scattered laughter.)
Ron Paul: But you have to realize that the base of the Republican Party shrunk last year
because of the war issue. So that percentage represents less people. If you look at 65
to 70 percent of the American people, they want us out of there. They want the war over.
In 2002, I offered an amendment to International Relations to declare war, up or down, and
it was – nobody voted for the war. And my argument there was, if we want to go to war,
and if we should go to war, the Congress should declare it. We don't go to war like we did
in Vietnam and Korea, because the wars never end. And I argued the case and made the point
that it would be a quagmire if we go in.
Ronald Reagan in 1983 sent Marines into Lebanon, and he said he would never turn tail and run.
A few months later, the Marines were killed, 241 were killed, and the Marines were taken
out. And Reagan addressed this subject in his memoirs. And he says, "I said I would
never turn tail and run." He says, "But I never realized the irrationality of Middle
Eastern politics," and he changed his policy there. We need the courage of a Ronald Reagan.
Wendell Goler: Brian from Fort Wayne asks this question via the internet, a question
about controlling government spending.Congressman Paul, can you tell me three federal programs
you consider wasteful and would eliminate?
Ron Paul: I'd start with the departments – the Department of Education, the Department
of Energy, Department of Homeland Security. We've started with – we've just – the
Republicans put in the Department of Homeland – it's a monstrous type of bureaucracy.
It was supposed to be streamlining our security and it's unmanageable. I mean, just think
of the efficiency of FEMA in its efforts to take care of the floods and the hurricanes.
So yes, there's a lot of things that we can cut, but we can't cut anything until we change
our philosophy about what government should do. If you think that we can continue to police
the world and spend hundreds of billions of dollars overseas, and spend hundreds of billions
of dollars running a welfare state, an entitlement system that has accumulated $60 trillion worth
of obligations, and think that we can run the economy this way; we spend so much money
now that we have to borrow nearly $3 billion a day from foreigners to take care of our
consumption, and we can't afford that. We can't afford it in the government, we can't
afford it as a nation. So tax reform should come, but spending cuts have to come by changing
our attitude what government ought to be doing for us.
Wendell Goler: You would eliminate the Department of Homeland Security in the midst of a war,
sir?
Ron Paul: Well, I think we should not go to more bureaucracy. It didn't work. We were
spending $40 billion on security prior to 9/11, and they had all the information they
needed there to deal with the threat, and it was inefficiency. So what do we do? We
add a gigantic bureaucracy, which they're still working on trying to put it together,
and a tremendous amount of increase in funds.
So I don't think that the Republican position ought to be more bureaucracy. I mean, why
did we double the size of the Department of Education? (Bell rings.)
Wendell Goler: Congressman Paul, I believe you are the only man on the stage who opposes
the war in Iraq, who would bring the troops home as quickly as – almost immediately,
sir. Are you out of step with your party? Is your party out of step with the rest of
the world? If either of those is the case, why are you seeking its nomination?
Ron Paul: Well, I think the party has lost its way, because the conservative wing of
the Republican Party always advocated a noninterventionist foreign policy.
Senator Robert Taft didn't even want to be in NATO. George Bush won the election in the
year 2000 campaigning on a humble foreign policy – no nation-building, no policing
of the world. Republicans were elected to end the Korean War. The Republicans were elected
to end the Vietnam War. There's a strong tradition of being anti-war in the Republican party.
It is the constitutional position. It is the advice of the Founders to follow a non-interventionist
foreign policy, stay out of entangling alliances, be friends with countries, negotiate and talk
with them and trade with them.
Just think of the tremendous improvement – relationships with Vietnam. We lost 60,000
men. We came home in defeat. Now we go over there and invest in Vietnam. So there's a
lot of merit to the advice of the Founders and following the Constitution. And my argument
is that we shouldn't go to war so carelessly. (Bell rings.) When we do, the wars don't end.
Wendell Goler: Congressman, you don't think that changed with the 9/11 attacks, sir?
Ron Paul: What changed?
Wendell Goler: The non-interventionist policies.
Ron Paul: No. Non-intervention [intervention] was a major contributing factor. Have you
ever read the reasons they attacked us? They attack us because we've been over there; we've
been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We've been in the Middle East – I think Reagan was
right.
We don't understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics. So right now we're building
an embassy in Iraq that's bigger than the Vatican. We're building 14 permanent bases.
What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico?
We would be objecting. We need to look at what we do from the perspective of what would
happen if somebody else did it to us. (Applause.)
Wendell Goler: Are you suggesting we invited the 9/11 attack, sir?
Ron Paul: I'm suggesting that we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason
they did it, and they are delighted that we're over there because Osama bin Laden has said,
“I am glad you're over on our sand because we can target you so much easier.” They
have already now since that time – (bell rings) – have killed 3,400 of our men, and
I don't think it was necessary.
Rudy Giuliani: Wendell, may I comment on that? That's really an extraordinary statement.
That's an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of September
11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don't think I've heard
that before, and I've heard some pretty absurd explanations for September 11th. (Applause,
cheers.)
And I would ask the congressman to withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn't really
mean that. (Applause.)
Wendell Goler: Congressman?
Ron Paul: I believe very sincerely that the CIA is correct when they teach and talk about
blowback. When we went into Iran in 1953 and installed the shah, yes, there was blowback.
A reaction to that was the taking of our hostages and that persists. And if we ignore that,
we ignore that at our own risk. If we think that we can do what we want around the world
and not incite hatred, then we have a problem.
They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they
attack us because we're over there. I mean, what would we think if we were – if other
foreign countries were doing that to us?
Rudy Giuliani: Can I have 30 seconds, please?
Unidentified Voice: No, no, no, wait a second. Let's – we'll all get 30 seconds.
(Cross talk.)
Rudy Giuliani: They are coming -
(Cross talk.)
Unidentified Voice: We all want 30 seconds of time -
Brit Hume: Congressman Paul, one last question for you on this. The president believed after
9/11 that the tax cuts that he had put in place were helpful in softening the economic
downturn that occurred, and allowing the United States economy to rise out of it. Would you
propose – what economic policies would you propose under this scenario to avert or soften
a recession?
Ron Paul: Well, the lower the taxes the better, and I think cutting taxes would be beneficial.
But we should find places where we could cut spending as well, because eventually a deficit
can be very, very harmful to us.
Brit Hume: There'll be many more debates, but that is it for us tonight. Our thanks
to the candidates and their staffs, and to our debate partner, the Republican Party of
South Carolina. And also to the terrific people here at the University of South Carolina and
the Koger Center for all of their help.
Alan Colmes: Joining us now is Texas congressman and presidential candidate Ron Paul. That
was quite a moment between you and Rudolf Giuliani. I wonder if that had gone on a little
longer, just what might have happened, in the little mini-debate within that debate
that happened tonight.
Ron Paul: Maybe he'll debate me on foreign policy, I'd be delighted to debate him on
foreign policy where we each got to explain our positions.
Alan Colmes: The question the kept coming up to you was that you are not saying the
same things the other Republican candidates are saying.
Ron Paul: Right, that's true.
Alan Colmes: You seem to be not in sync with what the party itself was saying. Why run
as a Republican, and if you don't get the nomination, would you run as an independent?
Ron Paul: Well, the majority of the American people don't like the war. And I want to be
president of the country, not president of the Republican Party.
Alan Colmes: But you got to get the nomination first.
Ron Paul: Yeah, but the party itself has to have a position that is attractive to the
entire country. We lost last year's election on the war issue. Most people believe that
to be the case.
Alan Colmes: But if you didn't get the nomination, would you run as an independent?
Ron Paul: No.
Alan Colmes: You would not?
Ron Paul: No, I'm not planning on that, I don't intend to do that.
Alan Colmes: You ran as a Libertarian Party candidate in 1988, yet you call yourself pro-life.
Where in the constitution does it say, for example, that you can make laws restricting
woman's rights to chose? If you want to be a constitutionalist, shouldn't the government
stay totally out of the abortion issue?
Ron Paul: Well, I think the federal government should.
Alan Colmes: What about states?
Ron Paul: Well, it's up to the state government, because we don't dictate to the states. And
protection of life is one of the important issues of government. If you can't protect
life, how can you protect liberty?
Alan Colmes: So most libertarians, and I know you lean libertarian, would say woman should
have a right to chose, the government and even the state government should stay out
of it and you should not restrict a person's right to make that choice. That's what most
libertarians would do.
Ron Paul: No, but all libertarians believe that you should never use force to bring about
changes and they reject an act of aggression. A fetus is alive, it's human and it has legal
rights. If you kill it, you have committed an act of aggression.
Sean Hannity: Ron, I want to go back to this exchange you had with Mayor Giuliani here
for just a second. Are you suggesting that the United States of America caused the attack
on 9/11?
Ron Paul: No, I think that's a cop-out. When people imply that what you're saying is that
"you don't endorse my foreign policy, you're un-American, you're unpatriotic."
Sean Hannity: I never said anything like that.
Ron Paul: No, but I think that was the point in the debate, that if I didn't endorse this
foreign policy, you turned it around, or he turned it around ...
Sean Hannity: I'm not saying that, but what specifically are you saying? Are you suggesting
that our policies are causing the hatred of people that would cause them to want to kill
us?
Ron Paul: I think it contributes significantly to it, and this is exactly what our CIA tells
us. And anybody who's done any research on this has found out...
Sean Hannity: What have we done, what did America do to cause the attack of 9/11?
Ron Paul: Okay, the Americans didn't do anything to cause it, but our policies over many years
caused and elicited hatred towards us. If somebody was willing to commit suicide ...
For instance, the occupation with our military troops on their holy land in Saudi Arabia,
bombing a Muslim country for 10 years, putting on sanctions that killed hundreds of thousands
of people. So that caused …
Sean Hannity: Are you saying then that the world has no moral obligation on the first
Gulf War when an innocent country is being pillaged and people are being *** and murdered
and slaughtered, or in the case of Saddam when he is gassing his own people? Are you
suggesting we have no moral obligation? You stand by and let that immorality happen? You
Ron Paul: We have, on numerous occasions.
Sean Hannity: You support that?
Ron Paul: We have, on numerous occasions. If we feel strongly about it, why don't we
declare...
Alan Colmes: We got to run, we're just out of time. But the fact is the Reagan administration
stood by while the Kurds were being gassed, it happened in 1988. He didn't do anything
about it.
Ron Paul: What did we do with Moscow, what did we do with... We stood by and let them
do it to their people.
Alan Colmes: We got to run.
Sean Hannity: You would stand by and do that, I would not. I think that's immoral.
Ron Paul: Well, would you have the courtesy to ask the Congress to declare war? Would
you follow the Constitution?
Sean Hannity: We did declare the war. The authorization…
Alan Colmes: We got to run, guys. The Kurds were gassed and we stood by for years.
Ron Paul: We gave them the gas.
Alan Colmes: They're going to keep debating more on the other side of the debate. Keep
texting us your vote to 36988. We're coming up on close to 20,000 votes and the percentages
are still staying pretty consistent. In first place is Ron Paul with 29%.