Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
28 years old and already gone through a lot,
Maya Posch has both male and female genitals and thus is a hermaphrodite.
Rene Lunshof is camera man and was present for a week at the hospital where prince Friso was.
Christel Krukkert does amigurumi, which sounds like tough Japanese martial arts
...but has everything to do with needlework.
That sounded more like you were choking on it.
And our usual guest Robert Speijdel is very clear on TBS.
It's Tuesday the 28th, 2012. This is 'En dan nog even dit'.
Goodnight and welcome to 'En dan nog even dit'.
The mayor of Wassenaar launched an investigation into the drinking fest
...which is alleged to have occurred halfway February at the Town Hall.
VVD party member De Greef supposedly had explained to a woman
...how he'd teach her a lesson using his large member.
This is rumoured to be merely the first of many issues.
Maya, do you think that such a scandal says something about a politician's functioning?
Yes, I think you could say that.
Probably so. Mostly the *** intimidation or drunkenness?
A bit of both. A politician should be a guiding example for society.
If you think that's an example for society
Sorry, but no. - That doesn't work.
Rene, does your journalistic mind enjoy this kind of story?
Not at all, it seems.
Not this kind of story, no.
Not this kind of stories, then. - Not at all, no.
No, sadly.
That is clear.
Robert, the mayor has forbidden anything he could now.
No more drinking, no longer than an hour of hanging around.
It's no longer allow to mail between country personnel and officials.
They can not smoke anywhere.
They can't do anything. Do you think this is childish?
Yes, I also wonder whether it was a public or closed meeting.
It was after the meeting.
After the meeting? If it's after a meeting and after working hours...
...maybe they shouldn't do it in a public building but
...if it was just about one or two remarks then it's kinda...
The opposition has made it known, so the mayor is talking about libel.
That'd be hard if it's true.
But to feel intimidated by a single remark seems exaggerated.
If you always behave properly there's little to say, is there?
They'll say he always behaves properly.
Christel, have you experienced a personnel party gone wrong?
I have, yes.
Tell us.
So you say while knitting all proper.
And what did the mayor do?
So what went so wrong then?
No..
It wasn't too bad.
The wild stories won't be told here. - I won't tell wild stories and make people...
But the effects of alcohol were noticeable?
They are sometimes noticeable, yes.
But when not? Any personnel party can go wrong.
And that's why I never drink during personnel parties.
This isn't quite true either.
Next: what'd your life be like if your body is both male and female.
You have *** and a ***.
Robert Speijdel, let's start with the police
...as they're very active by fighting against fuel thefts.
Such as last weekend. You probably have an opinion on this.
Yes, I find most importantly how hard it is to do one's job correctly.
If you let the thieves run, everybody complains you let them go.
And if you pursue them fanatically, maybe too much in this case
...then everybody says that it could have been done differently.
What happened last weekend?
I understood that they were chasing fuel thieves.
Resulting in a wild chase, endangering cyclists.
And next -
So basically driven into the ditch.
Which had ended differently.
And also firing warning shots.
It hit a house, so the aim was a bit low.
A warning shot should be firing more into the sky -
It should be fired into the sky, right?
Exactly, and that apparently didn't happen.
And then you wonder, for fuel thieves of 100 Euro fuel -
In the house someone could have been present.
Exactly. The cyclists and someone in the house could have been injured.
But the police are allowed to do this?
Yes, I think. Though within proportions.
And that's the question, did this happen?
And they shouldn't needlessly endanger people.
They should protect all of us, right?
I think that the police is more dangerous in this case than the thieves.
For me as civilian.
I think it would have been good to stop the pursuit.
And not use this kind of methods.
It's hard to do right and you have a second to decide.
So sometimes you take a less proper decision -
What are you mild all of a sudden.
Because I understand when someone is in a difficult situation.
That's what I often find annoying with lawyers
...also of myself. We get this thick file with all the details
...and we can take all the time of the world to look through it
...and wonder whether the person could have done it differently.
But the agent has to take a decision right away, which has consequences.
There's also the discussion that firearms should be used sooner.
In principal I'm in favour of that, they're not decoration after all.
But then do not shoot regular houses.
You're so wonderfully subtle.
Something else... last weekend a girl was murdered in The Hague.
Stabbed, probably by a former TBS patient.
What do you think about that?
First of all very sad. It could be your 15-year old daughter.
And you get the discussion about TBS again.
And justifiable, as the point of TBS was always
...how do we get the patient back into society again.
For some you have to wonder whether you want that.
In Twente we have examples too, the man who shot people in Enschede.
Or the animal butcher of Twente who used the jargon of the therapists
...who thought he was healthy.
After which he got the chance to hurt someone in the Volkspark -
How do you know? We only hear about the extreme cases.
Maybe you shouldn't take risks with those extreme cases.
But what should you do with them then?
As far as I'm concerned finding a tall tree for them.
This guy had youth TBS, is 25 and behaved properly for a few years.
That's quite a statement, about the tall tree and such.
Yes, I'm quite in favour.
In some cases, for example in the US a guy who has killed 66 women.
He has confessed all 66 murders.
He could point out where each body was located.
But that can't be TBS. It's premeditated ***.
But you're pretty crazy if you kill 66 people because it's your hobby.
It's a TBS patient at any rate.
Didn't something go wrong, that no one realized this person was crazy?
That person hadn't been caught before.
I'm trying to say, if you got someone who kills 66 people
...you can put them into TBS, but I think it's clear
...in advance whether the therapy works and should never be released.
If that's your conclusion in advance, you could end it.
In some extreme cases I'd be in favour.
Very clear. Thank you.
I'll let it settle a bit, if you don't mind.
Our next guest is hermaphrodite, or intersex.
Someone who has both male and female gender characteristics.
Maya was born 28 years ago as Thijs.
But felt more and more like she was a hermaphrodite.
In the Netherlands they say nonsense, you're a ***.
Born as a man, but wanting to live as a woman.
Maya looks like a woman and feels like one.
The uncertainty and medical denial make life very hard for Maya.
Maya, I have read your story.
I had many questions, which probably most people get.
The first question is, how can Dutch physicians deny
...that you're a hermaphrodite?
How is that possible?
Primarily because they do not use the word intersex or hermaphrodite.
The protocol they use, the medical protocol
...calls it, in English 'Disorder of Sex Development'
...or a disorder of the reproductive organs.
And they do acknowledge that for you?
Not that either.
The diagnosis I got... I have received many diagnoses
...***, autoparagynaecophilia -
What is that?
They have made that one up.
It doesn't appear in the literature.
And a ***, in my simple terms
...that's something very different, someone born in the wrong body.
That's in your brain. You're biologically male or female.
Normally fertile, but wanting to be the other sex.
In my case it was more... when I found out in 2005.
I had never chosen whether I wanted to be male or female.
Normally if you're five or six years old
...that's when the children divide into the boys and girls.
It's never acknowledged at birth for you.
You were born as boy, as Thijs.
Although, they thought you were a boy.
Externally it wasn't visible, it wasn't until puberty
...when it became visible.
You had all male external genitalia, *** and such.
Everything was there, yes.
And then you hit puberty.
During puberty I got secondary characteristics of males and females.
And then I should think of ***?
***, hips...
Beard growth?
Very mild, very mild beard growth. As it turned out
...that my body produced hardly any testosterone.
I read that in the Netherlands you're intersex if you have ovaries and a ***.
Is that right?
No, they do not use the word intersex at all.
Standard procedure for a child that is born as hermaphrodite
Where it's clear that it has male and female sides
...one side gets removed.
They make a choice, the child gets surgery and lives on as boy or girl.
This is about hermaphrodites, with full development of male and female
There are many other forms.
Other forms such as genetic like XXY, as recently
with the Olympics in Africa where an athlete turned out to be XXY.
That happens, and what also happens a lot
...is called AIS, insensitivity to testosterone.
There are five variations of.
That's a lot, but what do you belong to?
I fall under intersex and the rare condition of hermaphroditism.
Why is it important that the Dutch physicians acknowledge this?
Because they basically say, nonsense, you're not.
Yeah, the point is
Why is it important? Integrity of the body.
Say for a woman who finds out that she's infertile
...she can have a fertility treatment or not. Integrity of the body.
My question when I went to the VU's gender team in Amsterdam
...was I think I'm intersex, I'd like to know which organs I have.
And based on that I'd like to make a choice.
And you didn't get that choice.
I didn't get any examinations, the only choice...
I got pushed into the *** protocol.
The term the medical world uses implies that something is wrong with you.
Yes, because they call it a disorder.
They call it a disorder.
If you're transgender or transgender you want to switch.
Then something has to be removed or added.
But you say, you're born like this
...because you also want to keep your ***.
Yes, that's right.
I have always had this uncertainty about which organs I have.
Four months ago after surgery in Germany I know that I also have a ***.
Which can possibly be used, but the specialists aren't in the Netherlands.
But that's certain now, it's been an uncertainty for so long.
It was uncertain because in 2007 I first went to Germany.
MRI scan got made, which showed that I'm a hermaphrodite.
In the Netherlands they denied this.
I went back to Germany for a second opinion.
They confirmed it, you are still a hermaphrodite.
So essentially Germany and the Netherlands have the opposite opinion.
Indeed, I didn't know who was right.
Ultimately I got back in Germany via a good urologist.
Who sadly died last January.
What I want to get to in this big story, what do you want?
What I want.
Same as everybody, just live.
So what's needed for that for you?
Same as in 2005, I just want to know what's going on.
Based on that I want to get a certain treatment.
And that's all.
But now you know that as expected you are hermaphrodite.
What kind of treatment would you want?
What'd make it possible to continue with your life?
The only thing I want is whether, since I have a ***
...not fully developed, but can be stimulated via hormone therapy or such
I'd like to have that looked at. It's the only thing I want.
I do feel that I should have both.
My body has always made it clear
...I should have an open ***.
But that's what you want.
The *** isn't fully grown, but you'd want
How should I call it? Reconstructing?
Well, grow fully.
Okay, so that it becomes a full ***.
What the German surgeon told me is it's there, but stuck together.
So it has to grow and develop more.
But at the same time you want to keep the ***.
Yes.
But what'd you do when you come across a nice guy.
It seems like a complex thing to explain.
I have met a lot of guys who were very interested in me.
But they'd be startled when they see something unexpected.
You'd tell them in advance, of course.
Many men I have talked with said they have had a girlfriend like me.
I hear it more and more often.
Really? How often does it occur in the Netherlands?
Intersex in general, the statistics are unclear. 1 in 1,000, 1 in 500, 1 in 25.
Depending on which conditions you involve.
It seems statistically difficult if the Dutch government doesn't acknowledge it.
That's the issue. What they say in Belgium at the gender team there.
They mention 14 cases with unclear genitals in Vlaanderen per year.
But what I know from messages from others is that it's usually kept secret.
Often it is corrected even without telling the parents
Often the parents are informed who decide out of ignorance or panic -
Let's make a boy or a girl out of it. Exactly, make it something, then it's clear.
Finally, Maya, what does your future look like?
I hope that I can soon, hopefully this year leave the Netherlands.
You really want to leave, you're through with it? I want to leave. The Netherlands...
It's been one long, traumatic experience.
Everything. I have lobbied in The Hague, they also ignored me.
I have the feeling based on what you say that based on the protocols
...is it more or less being denied that you exist.
That's right. What I said earlier, but the treatment for the existing ***.
I can't get it here, won't get it here and could take fifty years.
Before something changes which'd make it possible.
So, I simply have to leave.
I also have post-traumatic stress disorder.
I got that as well.
You want to go to a country where you do exist.
Where I do exist, where I can get help, where someone like me won't be suppressed.
And won't be discriminated against and persecuted.
And ultimately... how do you want to be listed in your passport?
As a woman.
As a woman. Okay.
Many people say there's a third sex and such. I don't think so.
It is simply a gender spectrum.
Male and female are the extremes in the spectrum.
There is a lot in between.
So I am located more on the female side.
I like it on the female side and won't mind an 'f' on my passport.
Okay, I wish you a lot of success.
We go to the world of social media.
Which were the most discussed subjects.
And which curious topics popped up.
It's time for our Twitter top items.
Rene Lunshof was going to *** to photograph the royal family.
Relaxed on winter sports. But it didn't go that way.
Rene, how did you hear that something had gone wrong?
During the afternoon we got a call.
Whether we were already in ***, which we weren't.
You got called by the press office?
Not much was known, something about a ski accident.
That it was someone from the royal family, yes.
But not who or what was going on.
So we decided to go to Innsbruck.
And only there did you get to hear what was gong on?
Right when we were about to leave did we hear it was about Friso.
How did it make you feel?
It's very sad, of course.
That it happens to them.
But it's also work for you.
Yes, that's part of it.
It's news.
But you were at the Queen's Day in Apeldoorn where things went wrong.
Where something else, but also horrible happened, a few years earlier.
Do you look differently at it?
This not really.
Queen's Day was different. It was a beautiful day and suddenly changed.
You have some more issues with that.
To handle it in your mind. We went there by car.
Then you have ten hours to prepare yourself.
Then you look more professionally at it.
What did you find in Innsbruck?
We arrived...
early in the morning. It was still very quiet at the hospital.
Little press.
Yes.
It quickly changed.
Yeah, that happened during the day. During the morning...
...they blocked one of the ambulance entrances, blocking the windows.
We assumed that the family would enter there, away from the cameras.
Then it became clear that they'd enter via the main entrance.
Do you know why?
Reason? I think they want to show the people...
That it concerns them.
And the arm Beatrix put around Mable's shoulders... told a lot.
It's remarkable, that at such a moment the royal family has to make a statement.
I think they did think about that.
Did you get certain instructions You work for RTL, SBS, NOS, doing photography.
We want you to choose this approach, or... you just needed to bring the news.
Because you never know what you can film or what you find.
What did those days look like for you?
It started on time.
You had to be there before the royal family.
On TV it looks calm, but nobody knew what they'd leave for Innsbruck.
We spent a lot of time in front of the hospital.
Nobody knew when they'd arrive.
Do you stand there until they go inside or do you stay standby?
You do stick around.
And you make sure you get your food nearby.
There were also colleagues in ***.
They'd communicate via Twitter when they'd depart from ***.
Then you could add 45 minutes for *** to Innsbruck.
Does the hospital do something for the press?
First day it was very busy and they couldn't do much.
Last two days the media attention was already reduced.
It was pretty intense, of course.
It looked a bit like there were paparazzi there.
Did you ever think, this goes too far or we should leave them alone?
No, it was all well-organized.
It was all well-organized.
If they came with the children they went via that ambulance entrance.
It was organized that they went via that main entrance.
To show it's them and the arm. It makes a statement.
Does it mean that the royal family needs the press for this statement?
It seems like a mutual benefit.
And I think they did it well. They gave us something. After four days
...they asked us to leave them alone.
And then you all left.
And then everybody left, yes.
Do you expect it stays like this? That all media respects this wish?
I don't know what might happen in the future.
There wasn't much to get there any more.
It was the walk, into the hospital and back.
There are journalist who chat with a doctor and write an article about it.
How did you experience this?
There's been a lot of controversy about the article.
I think it was more in the Netherlands. We didn't see any television.
We really didn't know what was happening.
On TV it looked neatly but for us it was a lot more chaotic.
Was it very international?
Here we seemed almost proud that prince Friso was world news, like that's important.
Did you notice this? That it was international, or more Dutch?
The Austrian TV was there, and the German.
The German TV is always present with royal outings.
Always?
They don't have a royal house.
They love the royal house, I have heard that before.
So they were present.
You heard things like Australia and the US...
That's how it did look from here, yes.
Alright, thank you.
For the news items in Overijssel Vandaag we'll switch to Inge. What are the topics?
We got the so-called hammer-*** case.
A woman supposedly killed her boyfriend with a hammer.
Janneke Nijland has been at the courthouse. 9 years cell has been demanded.
Without parole and with TBS.
Maybe Robert can tell us whether she might be released again.
Robert?
I find it difficult, I do not know the file.
At this stage it's a bit late for me to say something about it.
If it's proven then I think that it's likely she'll get this punishment, yes.
That's what I meant, if this is applied, this woman is likely in prison for life.
But Robert, you're the specialist.
Further we have a very weird theft in Giethoorn.
At a museum the tusks of a mammoth have been stolen.
Very weird. Jewelry, gold, gems...
10,000 Euro damage, but what'd you do wth mammoth tusks?
And also remarkable is that it probably was done by boat.
Further we also talk about the 'paddentrek'.
Always fun, thank you.
Alright, it's time for something from the past.
It were only grandmothers who turned wool with knitting needles into an itching sweater.
Times change.
Knitting and needlework are totally in now.
During those needlework hours you relax completely.
Our next guest, Christel Krukkert, knows all about this.
I think that's right, Christel, you seem pretty Zen here at the table.
I'm nearly done yes.
You're making a tiny, cute doll.
We're talking about amigurumis. Amigurumi.
Amigurumi.
What is it? I see a lot on here, but what is it?
It's from Japan, it means knitted creature.
In Japan they're smaller, they are 5-7 centimeters.
It came to the Netherlands about three years ago.
First slowly, now much more...
I find it so funny. The whole knitting thing.
It's becomes popular again, can you explain this?
Comes from two sides, you saw it appear again recently on catwalks.
The knitted dresses are allowed again.
I think it slowly... interior as well, yes.
And thus in a few years time it slowly...
But you aren't really...
I imagined a dusty type, not someone in a leather jacket.
You see young women doing it. It's totally in.
I don't do it in the train yet, but in principle..
Is it relaxing for you?
Mostly because I'm counting.
So I'm on the couch and it's a kind of yoga.
Counting, yes. I'm counting the stitches in my head.
Some people mark it but I like it.
It's a monotonous occupation.
It's not hobby for you, it's simply work.
You're not just putting dolls together, but you're making patterns.
That's right, I make patterns. I'm currently working on a book for Christmas.
So Easter is coming up and I'm doing Christmas decorations.
How did you get started on this?
By accident. Five years ago I saw this knitted plush in a store.
It was far too expensive for me.
I figured I could make one myself. I had had lessons during primary school.
I went to the market, got some wool and tried it.
From then on I couldn't stop with it.
That was your first design.
That was my first design, yes.
It still looked like that dog plush in the store.
Then I knitted a plant for the window and some carrots...
It's funny because you're an artist, but you also said that it has many similarities.
It's what I did in 2D with charcoal or pencil.
You made illustrations mostly and such.
My illustrations were like these. I could have drawn this one.
That's the similarity, I now make them in 3D.
You made a lot of progress, you made a series of books.
With patterns, which can be bought anywhere. This is the latest one, right?
That's the latest, it's been out two weeks.
Knitting monkeys.
Are monkeys in?
They are now, I think.
With a superman monkey which I quite liked.
I'm thinking pragmatically here because I'm too lazy for this.
Why don't you start a factory to produce them? They'd sell well.
There's someone who does this and sells them.
Very expensive.
It's crisis, we need to make them ourselves.
The fun is in making those critters.
Many people ask me, I have twenty of them, what do I do with them?
They're done and it's so nice to make them.
This was all for today. Thanks for being here.
Tomorrow we're back. Do you hate your neighbour?
Then watch tomorrow, as a neighbour negotiator will be present.
I see Robert watching already.
I think Maya wants to be next to someone from a hospital.
With a positive message: a neighbour who has resolved a conflict in an interesting way.
Until tomorrow.
And then this:
The fuel thieves in the beginning of this show were unhappy for being chased.
Sometimes a service station's personnel are very helpful, though.