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Gail: We'll do a brief overview of the Pathways programs themselves. I'm sure you're all fairly
familiar with them. We'll discuss implementation a little bit, because we are now in full implementation
in Pathways. We will discuss some of the issues of the impact that Pathways has on your recruitment
efforts for students and recent grads, some solutions, maybe, to some of the problems
that you experience under Pathways. We'll also discuss Pathways and how it interacts
with 5 CFR 302, which are the procedures when filling any excepted service position in the
federal government. Then, if we have time, we'll take questions, and as I said, you can
stop me as we go along and ask questions. We're going to do a little more global look
when we review the programs, because there are a lot of similarities between the programs,
and they have kind of a progression to them that we want you to be able to see. Once you
get one down, you've kind of got the others down. We will focus largely on the internship
program and the recent graduates program today, because OPM essentially manages the PMF.
The internship program. When I hire an intern, that appointment is generally tied to the
length of the education program that that individual is pursuing. We also have a provision
under the internship program that allows you to hire intern and intern not to exceed. The
intern not to exceed was designed to give agencies the flexibility to still hire summer
students, summer hire, to help get you through the summer when you have a lot of employees
on annual leave, things like that, Christmastime, whatever, project work. The intern not to
exceed has a different purpose than the intern itself. They're similar, but, really, they
have two different purposes. Interns, you can hire them on a full or a
part time basis. The recent graduate program is designed as a one year program. Agencies
can request programs that exceed one year, but they have to provide justification for
a longer program and OPM approves that, and that's all done through the MOU process. The
PMF program is a two year program. Who are these programs for? They're for only
current students and recent graduates. The education to qualify as a student or as a
recent grad, that education had to have been obtained from a qualifying educational institution,
as defined in the regs, and it can be high school, college degrees, vocational, technical
schools, certificate programs, et cetera. Certificate programs. How many people have
issues with certificate programs? OK, good. At least a couple.
Unlike the previous regs, certificate program is clearly defined under Pathways. I'm not
going to read it to you verbatim, but it has to be a bona fide program that's equal to
an academic year of full time study, et cetera, et cetera. OK? It also has to be in a qualifying
educational institution. I have a question in the back.
Kermit Howard: This is Kermit Howard again. Going back to one of the key slides, where
it talked about recent graduates and that OPM approves longer programs, could you briefly
describe what are the criteria for approval of these programs?
Gail: Kermit asked, what are the criteria for approval of a longer program? There is
no black and white criteria. Generally speaking, we haven't had too many. At least that's my
recollection the agency just makes their case. They provide the [inaudible 0:04:55] as long as you have
something that makes sense in there, and has good reason.
Kermit: Thank you. [silence] Gail: I'm sorry. We're having some difficulties.
[silence] Gail: OK. Better? Generally they are tied
to educate and training requirements. Because it's a more complicated career field, some
didn't like that. If you're asking me if OPM as a list of specific criteria that must be
met, no we do not. Kermit: Thank you.
Gail: Yes sir. I'm sorry. We have another question. [silence]
Audience Member: We had a request come in for individual certificate programs that consist
of 18 hours in total. We assume that [inaudible 0:06:32] . Even still, if it's graduate, it
would be even different hours. Most of the graduate programs that we come across, I would
say nine hours would be considered full time. It just depends on the program. AP could,
if it was graduate, AP, might be able to try, but if it's undergraduate, of course, it's
going to be four. Gail: That's what I would say too. You have
to look within the parameters of what is the acceptable norm in the educational community.
You have that flexibility, we're not going to dictate. Maybe you look at what the requirement
is at that particular school that the applicant is going to, etc., and you come out with that.
To find this, we've tried to help narrow it down, was largely by request, when we were
drafting Pathways, so that HR, so that they'd have something more definitive when trying
to explain to a manager why a two week certificate course isn't qualifying to get a student appointment.
You do have some flexibility in there. Who's eligible? For interns, we have current
students, and they can still be in high school. They can be in college. They can be doing
some kind of vocational, or technical curriculum, and they have to be at least a half time...this
was my boo boo. It's just they have time to do this as defined by that particular educational
institution that they're attending. Because different schools define half time differently.
Just everything is going to give me trouble this afternoon.
The Pathways Program, they have a little bit of an escalation to them. When it comes to
eligibility for the recent grads, high school drops off. So you can't hire a high school
student as a recent grad, but you can still hire college graduates from either an undergraduate
or graduate program. They have to apply within two years of the
announcement, and that two year time period is extended for certain veterans. They get
two full years of eligibility upon separation or release from their active service, but
under no circumstance can it exceed six years from the date they graduated.
Audience Member: You're talking about undergraduate, graduate. Where does the associate's degree
fall into this mix? Gail: OK, I just didn't put it on there.
It would be the same thing. An associate's degree would qualify as a recent grad if that's...
Audience Member: OK. Gail: The question was associate's degree
isn't on here, and it should be. It's included. Audience Member: Thank you.
Gail: PMFs, once again, some of the education drops off. The associate's, the graduate degrees,
they drop off. PMFs, only advanced degree graduates are eligible for the PMF program.
We maintain the provision that allows individuals who will complete their advanced, the educational
requirements for the advanced degree by August 31st of the year we're doing the announcements.
So, for example, right now we're in 2013 cycle, right, or the class of 2013 so individuals
who will complete by August of this year were permitted to apply to this year's PMF's announcement.
Quals you need to remember that there are eligibility criteria and then there are qualification
requirements for the positions you're filling under Pathways. So for interns agencies have
the option. They can develop agency specific qualification standards for their interns
or they can use OPM Quals. We are currently working on Quals for the
interns. They're not quite final yet. We hope they will be out shortly, whatever shortly
is. So you have some options there when you're filling your intern positions. When it comes
to your recent grads and PMFs, however, they must follow OPM Qualification Standards.
So under the recent graduates program if you're filling...I don't know. Give me something.
If you're filling a 201 I always use that because it's the one I can always remember
if you're filling a 2017 they've got to meet the OPM Quals for the 201 series, OK? Yes,
we have another question. Audience Member: Are we still considering
work experience? Gail: For?
Audience Member: As part of the qualification process? It wasn't completely clear to me.
Before we used to be able to count certain types of work in addition to education. Are
we still able to...? Gail: You mean for recent grads?
Audience Member: For interns. Gail: OK, interns. You can always consider
that if you establish your own qualification standards for the interns then those standards
would have to provide for that provision to combine education and experience. For the
recent graduates program, the recent graduate...you need to keep in mind the reason the recent
graduates or justification for the recent graduates program was because these individuals
have no work experience. Because of their lack of work experience they cannot successfully
compete against individuals who do have work experience. Now that doesn't preclude a recent
grad from...with experience from applying, OK, and using it, but when you're doing this
for your recent graduates program, you need to keep that in mind. OK?
Audience Member: My question is and this is pretty much the cusp of what...why we're
here anyway. And I'm not an HR person so I'll just tell you that right up front. I'm the
Director for the Department of the Army Logistics Intern program, and we go about 100 people
a year that we hire. Now, the OPM qualification for recent graduates, very familiar with that.
However, we have always in the past...our qualifications have always been much higher,
much more demanding, because we have shown that the way we hire with our qualifications
the return on investment has been 15 years or more of government service so it's actually
done quite well. However, the OPM Qualifications now with the
recent graduates has lowered those qualifications considerably. Is there any way that...is there
any avenue that we have or any recourse that we have to request a waiver for specific programs
which has identified the past return on investment quite much larger than most organizations
have to get them into the specific program such as the one that we run?
It's a 346 series, and it does not have an educational requirement, positive educational
requirement, because, as you know, that would have to be for army wide, and everybody gets
hired into that series. So I understand why we can't specifically request it just for
the program. I guess that's why we're here, because we're
hiring a lot of folks that, well, they meet the minimum qualifications that OPM sets.
We have to, you know. And we're just trying to figure out how we can get to the point
where we can get back to where we were so we can get the quality folks that we've been
getting. Gail: So you're talking about what you used
to be able to do under the Federal Career Intern program.
Audience Member: That is correct. Gail: OK. So APSIP is gone. So did everybody
hear what he said? His agency is concerned that OPM Quals are actually less than the
quals that his agency used to use under the old Federal Career Intern program. So we are
going to get into that a little more a little father into the briefing, things you can do.
It is what it is so the short answer is, no, there's nothing to be done for that. The OPM
Quals Standards apply. Mike Mahoney: Hello, my name is Mike Mahoney.
I manage the hiring policy office at OPM. You have to apply the government wide qualification
standard, as Gail said, but that doesn't preclude you from getting highly qualified candidates
in that. That might be borne out through the selection method that you use and Gail's going
to talk about that in a little bit when she talks about the 302 procedure. So I don't
want you to think that you are just left with selecting minimally qualified people. Again,
there's a qualification standard but you can still select highly qualified people depending
on how you go about that, and she'll get into that in a few minutes.
Audience Member: We were hiring 50 people and 80 people, great, but...
Mike: Well, but they meet the qualifications for the job.
Audience Member: [off mic conversation] Mike: Right, because there are no more your
qualifications. There aren't any and if you are filling the job through the recent graduate
program, yeah. Gail: OK, so the training and development
piece at Pathways also kind of escalates as you go through the programs for IDPs are required
for all Pathways program participants. An exception would be the intern "not to exceed"
who is hired for short time summer employment. The recent grads in the PMF, you are required
to provide interactive formal training 40 hours for the recent grads, 80 hours/year
for the PMF. The recent grad and PMF also has a mentor requirement. You must provide
a mentor to these individuals. I believe it's 45 days to 90 days within the time you appoint
them. Now, this doesn't mean that you couldn't provide
your interns with that same mentor opportunity, OK, or that you can't provide your intern's
formal interactive training. In fact you should have some kind of training and development
plan for your interns. And of course the PMFs also have a requirement for a developmental
assignment during their two years. Audience Member: And one of my question
with this slide, just so I follow you, there's a "not to exceed" intern but then there's
also an intern, the program tied to the length of their education that's specific in during...do
they require an IDP as well? Gail: Yes.
Audience Member: OK, so everyone except the short summer...
Gail: The short summer. You are going to follow, I believe 430 as the performance management
and all that kind of stuff. So even if you hired that intern not to exceed for a year,
what you know is they are employees. They are federal employees and they are subject
to all the provisions of the CFR just like any other employee. So I believe that cut
off is 90 days or less, no IDP. I just want to call to your attention that OK, so for
that true summer hire that you are only hiring for the traditional month, no, you don't have
an IDP requirement. If you are using that intern for something that not to exceed for
something a little longer, or some kind of special project or something, then you are
probably going to need to fulfill that requirement. Audience Member: OK.
Audience Member: Yes, are you saying... Mike: No, not during the...ones that are
not to exceed. Gail: There is no mentor. There is no regulatory
requirement for a mentor for the internship program. That kicks in it for the recent grads.
Audience Member: Thanks! Gail: But like I said, that doesn't mean
you can't and then it's a good idea. Remember, the Pathways programs are designed...they
are programs. It no longer works like it used to where a manager could just decide to use
his authority because he wanted to, OK? Similar to like they don't work like people with disabilities
or the DRA or other accepted authority. This is a program. These are programs that have
a very specific purpose and the purpose of the intern is to train that intern for the
future so as to help with your workforce planning and hopefully which will lead to conversion
and to a permanent employment. Just like you said that you had very good luck with the
ASSET program. OK, all Pathways program's participants are potentially eligible for
non competitive conversion to the competitive service. You can convert them to a term or
to a perm. If you convert to a term first, you may subsequently non competitively convert
them to a permanent competitive service appointment. The potential for that conversion needs to
be identified in your Pathways announcement for the position and you must also identify
that potential in the participant agreement and provide that intern recent grad PMF or
whatever the case maybe, you need to tell them in the participant agreement what the
expectations are for successful completion. OK, one second, let me finish this slide,
and then that non competitive conversion, the Pathways participant that is non competitively
converted to the competitive service must meet the OPM qualification requirement of
the positions that you are going to convert them to. OK, so we have a couple of questions.
Audience Member: Yes, the question is you say that potential must be identified in the
vacancy announcement, so that's potential for conversion of the potential for the poor
performance level on position. Gail: Well you should identify both but
the potential for conversion should be identified in the vacancy announcements.
Audience Member: OK, the follow up question for that is this we are doing announcement,
we've put it out there for an intern without an NTE date. Poor performance level positions,
they know upon conversion they'll be going to a career ladder position. When we are converting
or when we get ready to convert individuals who are traditionally on a NTE date but have
met all the program requirements, the extensions or probably via renewal of the NTE, whatever
the case maybe, and they are being converted. When they apply for that position, that position
was built as a short term position probably something little bit more clearer from not
long term, now you are getting ready to convert them. Can we start the same entitlement converting
them to a career ladder position, provided that we haven't specified that upfront?
Gail: Well! Audience Member: And these are the questions
I get. Gail: Yes, I know. I hate this question.
Potentially yes, but really there is a requirement to identify that potential in the announcement.
So really you shouldn't find yourself in that situation for anybody that's recruited and
then appointed fully under Pathways. Where you may find yourself in that situation is
for individuals who were transitioned into Pathways. But you are correct that potentially
that intern not to exceed could be non competitively converted to the competitive service. Now,
like you said, keep in mind too that the ranks are very specific about why you are supposed
to hire; when and how and why you should hire a not to exceed. So really you are not supposed
to use the not to exceed when your intent is an intern, OK?
Pathways has a bunch of pieces that kind of mess together, so you've got to look at the
whole picture. So did you hire that person for the right reason. See what I am saying,
but yes, you are correct they are potentially eligible for non competitive conversion and
that would be your agency's decision, according to your agency policy.
Now remember, when I started I said you guys need to keep in mind that it's your executive
agency interior treasury, defense etc. they are the ones who establish the policy. So
you have, just because I say that it could potentially happen according to our regs,
doesn't mean that your agency will allow it. So you have to look to that as well.
I get beaten up every once in a while for answering you guys when the executive agency
is saying something else. So please do keep that in mind.
Audience Member: I have a question about the term. If the term, time period is like
2 or 4 years or... Gail: A term appointment in the competitive
service is any appointment that exceeds one year and does not exceed four.
Audience Member: [off mic conversation] Gail: Is that working now, because I'd really
like to put it...no, you don't. Just that the potential is there.
Audience Member: [off mic conversation] Gail: Oh I am sorry. His question was, do
you have to put on the vacancy announcement that the conversion would be to term or to
perm. No, you just have to identify that the potential is there to be converted to the
competitive service. Mike: Yeah, I just want to add to that that
the real intent is that you are bringing these people in with the intention of converting
them into your permanent workforce, OK? We allow for the conversion to the term appointment
and if it's a safe landing place, if you will, if for whatever reason, budgetary reasons,
there isn't a permanent slot available to them, OK, the government's invested a certain
amount of resources in these folks and we want these folks to be good ambassadors of
the program, so if there's not a slot, we allow agencies to put them in a term job until
a slot opens and then non competitively converting from that. But you shouldn't be putting announcements
out that say you'll be put into a term job when you finish your academic requirements.
The real destination is into the permanent workforce.
Audience Member: Sorry, one more question about, when you announce and you are trying
to announce a position that's not a not to exceed, not a short part but for the period
of their schooling, do you announce that as a temporary...you just announce it?
Gail: The question is, if I am hiring an intern, how do I announce the position? You
announce it as an intern, OK? Because even though, it's just like the former SCAPs or
like the FSPP used to be. They do not have a not to exceed date on their appointment,
OK? And if it takes some five years to complete their education you can keep them on that
intern for appointment for five years. So you wouldn't announce it with a time limit
unless you were actually looking for an intern not to exceed a short term need.
Audience Member: So this happened with us. We announced during kind of interim phase,
and I guess I am hoping, are we misleading applicants by saying, we want you for your
full period of education, there may be a chance to convert you but we can't guarantee that.
I just want to make sure they are aware that the job may not be permanent?
Gail: But you are still hiring the intern, right. So conversion is possible, it is not
guaranteed. And given today's environment, there is probably more and more chance that
we wouldn't be able to know even to the extent we know today what we might or might not be
able to convert to permanent. But you must notify them of the possibility of conversion.
And at the end of the day they've still gained the experience. They've been paid etc, etc.
So because that's how the program operates, so you don't have to worry about misleading
them. Audience Member: Right.
Gail: We are OK this? Sweet. You guys are way calmer than the morning session. Must
be you all had a really good lunch, right. Is that it? OK, so now we are at Full Implementation
of Pathways, right. What that means for you is that unless your agency has a signed MOU
with OPM, you may not use any Pathways program. Period, end of story. You know you can't use
it unless your agency has an MOU. We understand that there are some agencies that have some
individuals that were recruited for under the old student authority that have not been
brought on board. Some agency. I see some people going what?
Well, some agencies really they forecast their recruitment out a year or more for students,
OK. Some of those students that they hired and gave tentative offers to before Pathways
or during the transition period have not yet been appointed. If your agency has any of
those individuals they may not be appointed under Pathways, your agency is going to have
to start the recruitment all over again using the public notice requirements of Pathways.
We provided the transition period for Pathways and that was largely to give agencies some
time to get existing STEPs, SCEPs, PMFs transitioned under the Pathways authorities. Some agencies
have discovered that some of them fell through the crack and they weren't transitioned, under
Pathways they weren't converted to the Pathways during the transition period. If you discover
you have any individuals like that similarly situated, please contact us and we'll help
you work through how to get them under the Pathways authority.
OK. So now we are full implementation, like I said you have to have approved agency MOU
employees to be able to use Pathways and these are the things that the agency MOU covers.
It identifies what programs that your agency is going to use, not all agencies have opted
to use all three Pathways programs. It also provides delegations of authority.
So like I said, if you are not the executive agency, if you are not DOD and maybe you are
Air Force, then you need to look to DOD's policy to see what kind of authority Air Force
has been give to establish any of its own policy, OK.
It also identifies the Pathways Program Officer for your agency. It certifies that your agency
has policies and procedures in place to run the Pathways programs. It certifies that you
are going to use public notification which for Pathways largely is defined as a USA jobs
vacancy announcement and that would be any Pathways opportunity that your agency is offering.
And then it also certifies that you are going to follow the procedures of 5 CFR 302 for
the accepted service and the veteran's preference provisions that are also included in that
part of the CFR. OK. So I kind of see a little bit of what
you thought the single biggest thing was, but so now that we have been through some
of the stuff, any other things that you can think of. So we said vacancy announcements,
and it takes a longer ride and quals are an issue for some of you, any other things that
you've discovered that Pathways is impacting. Audience Member: I guess the impact is the
interpretation at least for us and others I talked to in the Pathways community on what
is deemed public notification, especially in the areas of recruitment fairs, job fairs,
career fairs and those kinds of things. Any clarity that can be provided on that would
be greatly appreciated. Gail: We are going to discuss that for sure.
Mike: I think our biggest impact is we are actually being prevented from reaching the
best and the brightest to come in to the Federal Government and I believe that's hard thing
to swallow and hard for me to say, but it's a fact, it's just a fact.
Gail: I get it. I do. I don't know what to tell you about that. That's preferences
above all. So it's here to stay. But there are some things, maybe like Mike was saying
before, maybe there are some things that you haven't thought of. So like, traditionally
did you.... Mike: I was just to that point. I was just
going to say though, we now have the public notification requirement, we didn't in the
past. So we are going to be identifying a lot more people that now know about these
opportunities. So to say that we are not getting the best and the brightest, how do we know
we are getting the best and the brightest when in the old days we weren't even putting
a job announcement out, OK. One of the reasons behind Pathways was to be transparent. We
wanted students and recent graduates to know where these opportunities were in the government
so that the best and the brightest could apply and be given consideration. There is a couple
of ways of looking at that. I just wanted to add that point.
Gail: OK, so like we discussed, there are not just appointing authorities that you just
get to say, give me Gail Perryman because I want her, OK. And these are more structured
programs for workforce planning. You have a projection. Your agency has to project numbers
for how much they will fill under each program under the Pathways recent grads. Then they
actually have to report actual usage, OPM under the regulations we have authority to
establish limits and caps on the hiring of students and recent grads if it starts to
go the way of other program. All these things impact, right. And then on top of that now
you have to deal with your executive agency policy which before under the old student
programs you didn't necessarily have to worry about, right. It was kind of like this flexible
authority that was there for you to use and you just had to do what the reg says.
Now, this other layer has been added on top for your executive agency policy. The public
notice, the perception that veterans' preference did not apply under the old student programs.
It did. We have strengthened it and it was done on purpose, for lack of a better word.
OK, let me finish. And there is also some restricted movement, right. So now we have
some questions and comments. So we'll stop here.
Audience Member: [inaudible 0:40:18] the DA Logistics Intern program. Don't get me
wrong, I have no grievance with veterans' preference. I think preference is a wonderful
thing absolutely. It's just that with the qualifications that OPM has set, it actually
lowered the bar of some programs where the qualifications were higher.
Gail: He says he still feels that the OPM qualification requirements for recent grads
are lower than what they established in Army. So the qualifications we use to fill recent
grads are the same quals we used to fill any competitive service position. If you were
filling it through an open competitive examination you will use those same OPM quals.
Audience Member: Well, right. I just want to make sure, it's perfectly clear, I have
nothing against veterans' preference. So I am all for that. But when I have to a vet
who doesn't have a certificate, no education, or anything else....
Gail: So we'll get to some of those issues. Audience Member: But then I [indecipherable
0:41:28] 4.0 graduate. Gail: Well, you cannot use grade point average
as a qualification requirement. You can use it as an eligibility requirement for your
program or to stay in your program. But you cannot qualify an individual based on GPA.
You can't do it. OK. We got some anomalies in our system. Are there any other questions
before I move on. Audience Member: On question, it's just
picking on what he is talking about. One of the limiting factors that I've heard from
managers is you take a GS4 for example, and the way the quals are, it's almost like you
are putting these interns into clerical type, you [indecipherable 0:42:24] it in terms of
what you can classify their duties to be. They want to be able to give them more substantive
work. But then if they are restricted to a four, in terms of budget, they feel like they
don't.... Gail: OK. We can't help you if you are restricting
your grade levels due to budget. OK. So if you are doing that, then there is nothing
to be done with that but I would disagree that just because it is an intern does not
mean that that PD cannot have any substance or that the assessment tool that you use to
decide to...and we are going to get to this in more detail but, just because it's an intern
and the person is a student, it doesn't mean you just have to give them menial tasks, OK.
But if you are limited by budget, that's a whole different ballgame.
Audience Member: I am new to this training. And my question is what does MOU stands for.
Gail: Oh, I am sorry. It's a memorandum of understanding between the executive agency,
treasury, interior, department of defence, commerce and OPM. So it's an agreement, OK.
It's kind of like we say there are certain things we are going to do for you. You say
there are certain things you are going to do, that you are going to abide by and play
in the sandbox, like you are supposed to, for lack of better way, OK. OK, solutions,
I am just going to skip right past this one and go to this one, OK. So we've heard how
you all feel about some of the impacts of Pathways, so whether some of the things that
we can do to help mitigate those that impact that you are feeling. And how many hiring
managers are in here? Oh, you are the lone ranger...oh another one.
OK, so there are a couple of you. You know, for my money won't get you a cup of coffee
but the hiring manager probably has a biggest adjustment of anybody because you used to
be able to decide what you wanted to do if you wanted to use one, the student authority,
and you could pretty much handpick who you wanted etc, etc.
You can't do that anymore. So it's a huge shift in what you've been able to do and then
when you take that and you factor in that you also have to worry about what your agency
is saying about your limits, how your piece falls into that etc. It starts to become a
challenge. But some of the things that we can do is we
could issue our intern or our recent grad announcements we could issue them for a shorter
period of time. Correct, if we typically announce them for 30 days, and if you are getting like
a lot and lot of applications on a 30 day announcement, maybe you want to cut that back
to a week or two weeks. You have that flexibility when you establish
your policy. The other thing you could do is you could limit the number applications
with there we would follow the same procedures that are in the delegated examining handbook
for the competitive service. There are very specific rules, you have to clearly identify
in the vacancy announcement that you are only accepting x number of applications or so you are going to accept 100 applications.
You do have some of those flexibilities, right. We have targeted recruitment not necessarily
targeted recruitment the way we used to know with under the old programs but we do have
some flexibilities there. You can cast a smaller net, right. If you are looking to hire, individuals
who are looking to hire, be more specific about the types of education that are desired
for this position. Tell them the kind of competencies or skills
or abilities that you are looking for. If you tell me you are looking for somebody interested
in rocket science and I may join in basket weaving, if I not have to believe I'd apply
for your rocket science position, OK. So there are things we can do with our announcements
and public notice is a big impact on you. But there are things that we can do in those
announcements that will help more clearly identify what it is we are looking for. So
your intern announcements should be way different than your summer announcement, kind of like
the cattle call for the...to help you get through the summer, right. So, all of those
things. Name requests, like I said, the manager used to be able, if you knew that Gail Perryman
was out there, you could just go to your HR office, give them my resume and say here get
her. And you can't do that now. You could still
name request, but that individual has to apply and has to get through the priorities and
stuff for you to be able to legitimately reach them. It's no different really than how we
operate on the competitive side, right. So we have some questions and comments under
this slide, so OK. Audience Member: Yes ma'am, can you tell
me how targeted recruitment works on the Pathways? Gail: No, yeah. All right, so targeted recruitment.
So before you used to be able to just go to let's say Georgetown, right. And you could
go to Georgetown, you could go to a specific college or university, and you could have
your career fair and you could accept applications and stuff like that. And then you could make
job offers right on the spot, whether or not technically you shouldn't have done this,
but you did, right. You can't really do that anymore. You could still target Georgetown,
OK, but you would also have to include the other colleges and universities that belong
to the same area as Georgetown. So you can't just say Georgetown students only can apply,
right. You used to be able to just go to Georgetown. Now you got to put an announcement out. That
announcement has to tell everybody that you are going to be at Georgetown on such and
such a day, etc, etc, OK. Wherever you hold this targeted event, has
to be open, other people have to be able to get there, OK. And we also advise you to check
with your general counselor, you might want to consider providing opportunity for people
who can't attend that event to apply. Now, if you choose not to, at the end of the day
if it ends up before a third party, your agency is defending your agency and its actions.
Public notice has been defined for the competitive service for a long, long time. It's a new
concept to the accepted service. The executive order didn't define it, so we're trying to
see how it really fits in here. Some of our thinking has evolved. I can't say that we
changed our mind. Our thinking evolved, sometimes, with some of this stuff as we see different
things happening out there. You just have to be careful.
Now, there is a difference. Recruitment is one thing, outreach is another. You can conduct
your outreach wherever you want. If you only want to go to Georgetown, go to Georgetown
and beat the drum about the Department of Army intern program and how this is typically
when we gear up to hire. OK, that's different. You can't just accept
those applications and start making job offers on the spot because you have veterans' preference
to deal with. You cannot limit by a geographic area, just for the sake of a geographic area.
I know it sounds like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but there is a difference.
It's a fine difference between targeting colleges and universities in a particular area versus
just limiting it to the Baltimore Metropolitan Area. Do you see what I'm saying? Wait for
the mike please. Audience Member: No problem. I just want
to make sure I'm clear on this. You're saying that you can limit an area of consideration,
as we have with other types of announcements, to say the Baltimore Metropolitan Area?
Gail: No. I said... Audience Member: Go ahead. I want clarity.
Gail: His question was that I said you could geographically limit, for example to Baltimore.
No, I said just the opposite. You cannot limit to Baltimore just because the Cora Engineers
is located in Baltimore City. OK? Now, I don't know how many, but you could say any students
attending any of the colleges and universities in the Washington, Metropolitan, Baltimore,
however you guys define it. You're telling all the college students, because remember
you're looking for college students. Think of it in terms of what would you do if it
was public notice that you had to put out under delegated examining, you cannot limit,
correct? It must be all US citizens all the time. Kind
of try and draw a parallel. You're looking for students. It's usually our merit promotion
type announcements where we're looking for current federal competitive service employees.
That's where you start to see geographic limitations on the area consideration.
Audience Member: My question is internal. If we're going to do an announcement for an
internal student with a not to exceed date and this has come up recently. I have an intern
with a not to exceed date, they want to extend the appointment for another year, but somehow
the student was say grade two. Manger says successfully does grade two, they want to
promote him to a three. Can we announce that, of course, I know things have changed, everything
has to be announced on USA Job, can I make it specific to NPS only and how does the vet
preference apply? Gail: The question was about if I have an
intern not to exceed and they're a grade two and management wants to give the intern not
to exceed a grade three, what's the process? How do I do that? Is that a fair restatement
of your question? Audience Member: Correct, I know we have
to announce it on USA Jobs, but might question is can I limit it to NPS only?
Gail: OK. What you have to do in order to do that, so, we have said that we believe
it's defensible when you have intern not to exceeds and there's a new opportunity. We
believe it's defensible that you can offer that new opportunity only to your intern work
force. Your intern not to exceed work force. In that case, you don't have to go on USA
Jobs. That's an internal. The other thing is, is remember, too, that temporary employees
the world around whether competitive or accepted they cannot be promoted. The only way to get
a temporary employee to a higher grade is by a conversion to a new appointment at the
higher grade level. We've said you can offer that to your current agency interns first,
that kind of announcement would be an exception to USA Jobs. Correct, they don't have to put
that on USA Jobs. However common it is a new appointment, so
any of your agency interns that apply to that opportunity it is an external action. You
are going to treat it and apply preference, etc. I may not get to promote Mike through
that conversioned new appointment because Karen may have also applied for that opportunity
and she is a preference eligible and she's every bit as qualified as Mike.
Audience Member: Now, I have a follow up to that. Is that in the FAQs in the Pathway
or is that something that our agencies should create? Because I have a manager that says
they want this in writing. How would I provide that to them?
Gail: OK. There is stuff, it was in the implementation guidance. We also, did you
receive the Maitresses? The maitresses also demonstrated some of this, but once again,
let me just ask you. Audience Member: Yes, ma'am.
Gail: What's your agency? Audience Member: NPS.
Gail: What's? Audience Member: National Park Service.
Gail: So, you're not the executive agency? Audience Member: Oh, DOI. I apologize.
Gail: Right. And see your executive agency is sitting right across the aisle from you
there. Audience Member: That's fine.
Gail: Interior. Audience Member: I have the matrix, but
the matrix is not clear, so when you give the matrix...
Gail: Whoa, whoa. OK. What I wanted to caveat, I just gave you the answer, but that is the
flexibility we have provided. You have to look to interior. Do you see what I'm saying?
Because maybe they don't allow you to do that. Maybe Interior has said there has been a couple
of agencies who have said "all Pathways opportunities will be posted on USA Jobs period." If that's
the case and if they haven't delegated to your agency authority to do differently, then
you can't. OK? I need to keep emphasizing that I'm giving an answer that is you're allowed
to do it within the regs, but are you allowed to do it according to your agency policy?
Are you OK? Do you understand? Audience Member: I'm OK. She has another
question. Audience Member: I don't have a question.
I don't need a mic. Audience Member: My agency, and I'm at Department
of State, our agency for our Pathway interns if they don't have a not to exceed date they
can be non competitively promoted. The ones who have not to exceed dates, they have to
apply in order to get a promotion. They're considered our ITAPs, which are our old STEPS.
Then we have the ones that are IEPs now, that were the old SKEPS they can be converted if
the office has the FTE to convert them, if not, then we either extend them or we terminate
them... That's how we're doing our in our ACN. Another thing is that all of our announcements
are posted out of Charleston. Once they review the application, issue a cert, the cert comes
back to me. I give it to the managers. They review the resumes, do interviews, or what
have you. Then just provide selections back to me, and then I send it back to Charleston.
Gail: Sounds like a simplified process. Audience Member: ...to Charleston who then
posts on USA. They post all of the announcements and everything?
Audience Member: On USA Jobs? Yeah, and I would love it. [laughter]
Gail: OK, great. We have one down here Karen. Audience Member: Speak through the microphone?
Gail: The question is, can we use KSAs? Is that politically correct? It's also the
same thing what sills, what kind of knowledge or skills, competencies, etc. You need to
identify what you need that intern, or recent grad, to do for you? Call it whatever. I'm
old and kind of embedded in KSAs a little bit. For example, has anybody ever seen a
vacancy announcement that doesn't include this the ability to communicate effectively,
both orally and in writing. That's a KSA from a hundred years ago. Maybe today they call
it a Competency, but we do all have to be able to communicate.
That's valid for your students. Your students, there are some students that will demonstrate
that better than others for you. They have to give presentations. They have to write
papers, etc., etc. You do have some tools. Is it maybe just a little bit more? Yeah,
but that may be at the end of the day, you end up more like army where you've got an
intern that is really interested in doing your job, and sticking around, and making
a career [indecipherable 1:03:09] , which is part of the purpose to. It's to encourage
Federal careers. Audience Member: This is just a question.
Gail: I'm about to cut you off. [laughter] Audience Member: But this is a good thing.
No, no, no. I just have a, there was a [indecipherable 1:03:33] you're probably going to have to
help me out here. When I first read about the ad place and everything, it talked about,
you have to have the public announcement, which was fine, I understand that. The public
announcement was, there was a cover page that you would go to a certain page, talk about
intern programs, [indecipherable 1:03:47] programs. You'd click on it and that would
take you to the actual website of the organization. Is that still the case? Because the DOD makes
us go with USA Jobs? I understand what DOD is saying, but is that your policy? Has that
changed or is that still the same? Gail: No. USA Jobs is actually what the
reg says is, you must notify OPM. The way you notify OPM is through USA Jobs.
Audience Member: Right. Gail: In that form of vacancy announcement,
right now? There was, don't get... Audience Member: [off mic conversation]
Gail: Right, but do we currently have that capability? No. In the beginning, we had the
morning session, and I went up and looked at my emails. That's always a mistake. I actually
received an email from somebody who was quoting the proposed reg. No. We have a final reg.
There were some significant adjustments made between the proposed, and the final. You want
to always make sure that you're looking at the current stuff. There was a lot of talk
about different ways, and we still are pursing ways of, I believe what they call an ad. That
ad would still appear on USA Jobs. The difference is, that when you post a vacancy announcement
on USA Jobs, the applicant can apply directly via USA Jobs. If you use the ad process, then
they have to come in your back door somehow. They have to go to your system. They don't
actually apply online through USA Jobs. Audience Member: Regarding casting of smaller
NEFT, if the OPMs qual standard does not a positive education requirement, what is the
appropriate way of indicating that you might have some preferred academic majors in line
for your job? What steps do you take to make sure that that is defensible?
Gail: The question is, if I'm trying to recruit for something that doesn't have a
positive education requirement, how can I say that I want a rocket scientist? I just
say it. I say this is preferred. If I'm hiring Public Affairs, and there are certain academic
tracks that would lend themselves to better preparing that individual, then say so. Say
that's what you want. You can't disqualify somebody who doesn't have it, but when you
start to assess your applicants, you can certainly then start to apply that criteria. It comes
down to who's good, who's better, and who's best.
You tell them what you want. The more you tell them about what you want, the better
chance you have of getting the kind of applicants you want. And not getting a bunch of people
who really have no interest in Federal HR, or Accounting.
The accounting is not a good example. Some of those do have certain educational requirements.
You just tell them. The trick is, you don't disqualify. Do you see what I'm saying? Quals
are quals, but that doesn't mean that I can't say, but this is better.
Are we good? I see one more hand, one tentative hand.
Audience Member: I actually have a couple of questions, going back to a couple of points
that were made about promotions. Is it OK to go back on this point?
Gail: Yeah. Go ahead. Audience Member: One of them actually was
for, just say you do an announcement for interns, not to exceed for just a summer thing, but
you actually want to keep some of them on board after the summer. I think we've done
this, but I want to make sure it's right. We can do a conversion to drop their not to
exceed date? Audience Member: Is that no, not correct?
Gail: OK. The question is if I hire an intern not to exceed for the summer, but by the end
of the summer I think I've got myself a couple of crackers jacks and I don't want them to
be interned, not to exceeds anymore. I want them to be an intern. The question is can
I just drop the not to exceed date? No, you cannot. You have got to post that opportunity.
Audience Member: OK, and then my second one was just say you did hire competitively
or through announcement purposes, the intern without the not to exceed date. The manager
has identified that they're starting to do higher level work and they're capable of doing
higher level work. Just say they were working as a GS 4 and the manager thinks they'd be
qualified to start doing GS 5 work, how will we go about promoting that person if at all
possible? Gail: OK, there's several things with that
and what it is. Her question was if I hire an intern into just a single grade GS 4, then
how do I promote him? There are several answers and we're going to get into more detail about
that, but why would you hire and intern in a straight, single graded position? Once again,
go back to the purpose of the program. These people are supposed to on IDP's, have training
plans, these are people you're supposed to be developing and growing, hopefully, to be
part of your future workforce. Why are you hiring them at a dead end three or four? Why
aren't you hiring with them some promotion potential?
Then, depending on what you can do, how you get them to that higher grade, then goes back
to some of the requirements for policy. Whether or not you would be able to just promote that
individual or whether at the end of the day, you would end up having to offer that up to
everybody in your workforce. We'll get to that, it's part of our 302 procedure, so...
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