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NEPED is here in Guimaraes, Portugal,
to interview the researchers of CEGOT, of the University of Minho
Well, we are here with prof. António Bento-Gonçalves
and with prof. António Vieira,
professors of Geography Department of the University of Minho,
it's a pleasure to be here with you.
I would like to hear the professors, in first place, about your academic background.
What was your alma mater institution, what's your research field within Geography?
Dr. Bento-Gonçalves?
For us it's a great pleasure to greet the colleagues of Federal University of São Carlos,
from Brazil, wishing you to be very welcome and to have a great stay in Portugal.
About the question, I graduate and master by the University of Coimbra in Geography,
graduate in Geography and master degree in Physical Geography, and did the PhD here in the University of Minho,
on Physical Geography and Environmental Studies.
Since 1989 I have dedicate to the question of risks, especially the natural hazards, and particularly, in the recent years,
much about the relations of forest fires with the soil, the issue of soil degradation,
of soil erosion, in the sequence of forest fires.
In the field of forest fire, we've been having great care about looking or causes and consequences
of these forest fires, and are these the major topics that we've been studying, logically
always within the scope of Physical Geography as a whole, and of Geography as an even greater one,
and with the Social Sciences and Earth Science, where we find ourselves in such interface.
Professor António?
I'd like in first place to give you welcome
to Portugal and here to the University of Minho, and, regarding to my background,
so I did all my academic trajectory in the University of Coimbra,
I was graduate in Geography with specialization in Environmental Studies,
and my master's degree was in Physical Geography and Environmental Studies.
On PhD I continued in Geography, and specialized myself essentially in the field of Geomorphology.
The work that after I developed, and that I also have developed with prof. Bento-Gonçalves,
has been in the purpose of analysing the issues of soil erosion, the linkage of these with forest fires
and the causes that they bring to soil degradation on the various perspectives.
And also, one field that is really important to me is the application of Geographic Information Systems
in the analysis of spatial problematic and, naturally associating to the issues of
soil erosion and forest fires, where we have used such tools
to understand how such phenomena occur, what are the consequences,
and try, therefore, to improve such understanding with these tools,
these new technologies.
Thank you very much for this short description, I'd like to briefly hear from you
a little bit about the interpretation that Geography gives to this event called
forest fires. What is it all about?
What's the importance of these events here to Portugal?
Regarding the forest fires and this project in particular, one of the great
concerns of European Union in this moment is the matter of climate changes.
This project was designed to the southwest of Europe, therefore
comprising south of France, Spain and Portugal where we tried to analyse, if determined
scenarios where verified, determined climate changes, which effects
would be produced on the most different levels: on fishing, on housing, on agriculture,
and on forest fires.
As several partners were involved, two in France, seven in Spain and one in Portugal, for obvious reasons
we stayed with forest fires because Portugal unfortunately is known for
its problems regarding forest fires.
In fact, in Portugal forest fires are not only a naturel phenomenon,
and I think that our lectures we try to show such reality to students by explaining that
it's a mixed hazard.
That it has a natural component, obvious, climate is fundamental to explain,
but it has a inseparable component; it's not possible to explain the forest fires
in Portugal without questioning the spatial planning or unplanning, without considering
the population dynamics throughout the last decades.
Therefore it's not possible to conceive it as a natural or human hazard solely, and so
we call it a mixed hazard, because it has both components very present.
In Portugal, undoubtedly, the major hazard that we have, although
there's also the risks of flooding and the geomorphological hazards with some severity,
or, in the Açores islands, the seismic and vulcanic hazards,
but in the Portugal mainland the risk of fire is the major hazard, what has
very interest components because, on one side we have this climate with Mediterranean characteristics, which
associates the dry period with the hot period, thence generating perfect situations to have forest fires,
We also have a vegetation that burns very easily, great part of our forest are
composed of eucalyptus, that is the , and the maritime pine, , which are very
easy to burn, and also there's a series of traditions, in the Mediterranean, and this is Mediterranean culture,
the culture of fire, that we always deal with fire,
initially as a friendly tool, therefore as an instrument, which, little by little,
with the destruction of the rural world, we were losing this proximity with fire,
and nowadays we see the fire as an enemy instead of still using it, as
it has been during centuries, as an useful tool, probably the greatest discovery of humankind
that brought us here and so on, and, in turning our back to the fire, we brought this
difficult relation with the fire, in which, in Portugal, every year
receives the sad record which is the greatest number of forest fires in Europe,
which logically brings all these consequences, in terms of atmospheric pollution,
in terms of soil degradation, in terms of water pollution, thence this
has many consequences and, if we analyse the causes, we have the most absurd causes, from crime,
which, unfortunately exists, until causes so simple as children's play, because they see on television
that the fires give "screen time" on the television, so such simple games as
two kids that once made, "today I put fire and you chronometers how long
the fire-fighters take to come, and tomorrow we switch", the one which the fire-fighters take longer to come lose
and we have such situations, so absurd, even though it's not the most frequent,
but we have from these to crime, to negligence, omission.
The most common are the fires that start with the pasture regeneration and escape from control
with conflicts regarding hunting, thence we have the most varied causes
to have this large panorama in terms of fires in Portugal.
Then, trying to understand a little bit about the aspect of the sociocultural practices that are conceived
in the values of these communities, in the way such community organizes its territoriality,
protects its forest resources, it seems to me that such practices have s link with these
episodes, it’s not just the fact of the people live near forests, but the way
that they relates with the forest, conceives the forest, values this forest,
which has much relation, as well, with the fact of this disaster happen too.
Yes, and has much to do with the way that they relates to it and the way they don't relates anymore, because it's always
important to talk a little bit about how the structuration of rural world in mountain areas
how this alteration in the behaviour patterns has been verified, especially from the 50's and 60's and
that acquired physical from on the 70's and 80's, this lost of relation in which the countryside of Portugal,
in this moment having a very aged population, do not cultivate their terrains anymore,
and all this has to do with this new situation.
We also have the fact of having a new use of this space, in mountain places, not anymore
with the purpose of extracting resources, like wood and so on, but using this as a place of leisure, what causes,
in many cases, severe problems due to a non-adequate behaviour in the rural space, once
that not everything that we do in the city we can do in the forest area, because thence it creates more problems,
and the fires can be caused by situations of bad employment of fire on picnics and on this and that.
Therefore, there's also this lack of relationship or of the habit of urban relationships with the
forest and rural space.
How, prof. António, you see that these new tools, computer graphics, how is that
they help Geography to better understand this kind of problem that is multidimensional?
In first place, such tools allows us to have a vision of the space and territory much more clear
and more objective. This study allows us to show some of the registry that we did with analysis of
geographic information, for example, to perceive where exists the interface spaces
between the rural and the urban, and obtain, for instance, a relation that shows us that is in the interface areas
where we are going to find the majority of fire deflagration occurrences.
Why? Precisely because they are the zones of greater conflict between the urban and the rural, there are more people
and also it's present the forest space.
We also identified with these tools an curious aspect which is the fact that, in determined places, exists
a great recurrence of forest fires, thence it can't certainly be a
random thing, and therefore we were able to perceive that increases the areas where
forest fires occur with more frequency and we have to find the causes for this to happen.
From these tools we were able to extract valuable information to understand
the reasons and the causes underlined to the occurrence of such phenomena.
So, then, this ignition element has to do with human occupation, this human
densification, and thence as a cause that can be from the human will as well.
Precisely, because the non-natural aspect of this phenomenon can be perceived from these
relations that we obtain from the analysis of such events and these tools helps us a lot.
And the support inclusively, I think, not only in systematizing better the information, but furthermost
to do this in such a way of making this more comprehensible to the layman, to the general public, as well as
the scientists from other areas of knowledge that can, from that information, to perceive
the social component that exists behind this phenomenon and, consequently, susceptible to
an interpretation also of Sociology from the geographic information.
It can be a starting point to a sociological analysis as well as anthropological, in which you
remind the historic process of how this rural world has been modified throughout
the last decades as well.
I'd like to thank CEGOT, to the University of Minho and Geography Department for
the important effort that is making in the sense of unveiling this phenomenon,
that can contribute much to we think, under a new optics, the events of
forest fires, that occurs too, with grave concerns, in Brazil.
If you allow me to add one aspect,
it's so important to investigate and do good science as it is also to communicate that after.
During many year the universities had, at least this is my perspective,
had this problem.
They did good science, but it remain closed within the universities.
It used to lack this part of communicate to the general public, to inform the decision-makers, give them good information,
and this aspect of information, of the information comunication, is essential.
Prof. António Bento-Gonçalves, Prof. António Vieira, thank you very much for the interview.
We thank you too.
Thank you.