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Hello. My name is Suman Bhuchar. I work in the arts. I do a lot of different things,
It ranges from PR and marketing for theatre. It ranges from advocacy in theatre to try
and get a Asian, British Asian theatre history. It ranges from working in television, making
documentaries still pitching Asian subjects, cultural diversity, er, and some writing,
basically. So I'm an arts producer, entrepreneur, jack of all trades type of a person. Master
of none but slave to a few. Em, I was born in East Africa, in Tanzania.
We live there until, em, I was about a teenager. I came here in '74, and, we've lived in the
UK ever since. It's going to be forty years this year. Scary but true.
Well, I got involved in theatre as a as a teenager, em, initially, by, going to see
a sketch, I think it was a Divali sketch show that had been done by Tara Arts in the very
early days, em, I'm thinking of mid-seventies, I can't remember the specific date, and em,
it was just a few sketches about em, er, you Asians and some satirical, em, sort of things,
which appealed to me, and em, I, found out a little bit more about the company. I think
I met some of the early members. Maybe somebody like, Praveen Bahl, Sunil Saggar, Ovais Kadri,
er, around that time and, and er, just it evolved from there, really. And then I started
to go to Tara Arts. Em, at that time, er people like er Shaheen Khan, who's now a very professional
and well known actor, em, Paul Bhattacharjee, now late sadly, you know, er, Rekhar Prashar,
Arti, Yogesh Pal, sorry, yeah, just, Yogesh, not Phal (Bhatt), I'm sorry, I got that wrong.
Er, just you know, these few people around, and the company was, em, one could say, amateur
in today's parlance at that point? Er, and er, I just got invol involved in some of the
productions really, so I got involved initially as an actor.
So, you like acting do you? Er well, I think I did it for one or two years
or something like that, but, I think, er, em acting, you know, now I can say, I think
it's quite a hard thing to do. So, em, I did not, er, pursue my acting, er, when the company
moved to become professional. However, my love for theatre, er was ignited around that
time. So how did you develop your other aspects
for your, your love of theatre? I think it just sort of grew, and it was there,
er, and then, my sister, Sudha Bhuchar, er, and her friend, Kristine Landon-Smith, set
up a theatre company in the, in 1989, and they were about to do their first show, well
their first show was on in '89, so prior to that, when they were setting up their company
and talking about it, you know, I said that I would, er, I would, er, like to be involved,
and I just, em, got involved in the marketing and promotion area, and it kinda grew from
there, and I found that I really enjoyed that, and I continued, in that field, em, so I worked
with Tamasha on quite a lot of their projects in the early days, say from 1989 to er at
least 2001 on all their regular shows, and then after that, em, on a bit more ad hoc
freelance type basis. But, you know, within that period, the whole of the Asian theatre
scene in the UK was also evolving and growing and I kind of just got involved in that, in
that way. You know, I I think that er, em, I have been involved in creating an Asian
audience now, in inverted commas, for, the, theatre work that was being done by the British
South Asian community in the UK from the late 80s, onwards really.
So how was the the em, er, South Asian theatre developing then, you just mentioned that about
it's development. Could you give us some indication of the key ways in which it was developing.
Well I I think, you know, er, people get involved in things if you have a passion to be able
to do something about, about it. So, er, Tara Arts was specifically set up in response to
the death of Gurdip Singh Chaggar and trying to do something political, or address it,
through an artistic and cultural way. Er, when Tamasha was set up, er, they were two
women, and, who wanted to, again look at, em, addressing some of the gaps in the theatrical
landscape in that way, which is having women in the central role at the driving force of
it, and they were trying to do, use, one could say, tell Indian stories, or be a bit more,
er, populist, in their approach to trying to get people to, em, raise and understand
issues through theatre, and then, at the same time, Kali Theatre also set up another women
led theatre company, you know, so, em, the evolution is organic. I mean, you have to
feel something about a subject matter, and respond to it. Of course there were other
considerations because of that time in the late 80s when Tara went professional, there
was a whole issue about how could young Asian actors, who did want to work in a professional
capacity, get a membership for EQUITY, and, it was quite difficult to do and I think,
that, er, theatre companies who had some sort of a rep, er, approach, er, had to nominate
people, to be able to get tickets, so, all these other issues about productions, about
employment, were also there, em, so the driving force, is, a mixture of the desire to want
to do something, creative, as well as to create, opportunity for yourselves, through a creative,
er, manner. And now you write about em, Asian theatre.
Well, er, my evolution in theatre, has been from that as an actor initially to promoting
theatre. I still do promotion work, you know, and marketing because I feel, as I said, it's
a passion that's grown, but over the years, I've also tried to er, produce a couple of
things with a young company called Lucid Arts, you know. I have also now taken to trying
to write and do some interviews for a website called TheatreVOICE, er, which is part of
the Victoria and Albert, er, theatre archive, because I feel that, even in, my own lifetime
of being involved in it, we've created a certain, history in this country, er, about that area
and, em, it just needs to be, er, part of the wider landscape of theatre, so I'm quite
keen that it gets, recorded in some way, so even, what your project is all about is an
important part of that process. I mean, I could give you an example. You know, this
year we've jus celebrated the 50th,, em, anniversary of the National Theatre, and although, it's
been quite big in some ways, I've heard nothing said that Tara Arts has had four shows at
the national, within those fifty years. So, you know, again one is neglected and you don't
want to feel, bitter and twisted about it, but sometimes it's a little irritating you
know. Yah, I wanted to ask you about this kind of
em, developing audiences because I actually had the National Theatre in mind, you know.
Audiences that go there are predominantly White and middle-class and, more elderly as
well. Em, and how do you feel about this, em, I mean, to me, it's it's a little bit
of an irritation that there's these divides you know. And especially amongst our national
theatres in sight of er developing audiences from eth, different ethnic communities. How
do you feel about that? Well, you know, em, I've been doing it off
and on since, since the late 80s. I think that, I would say that, most of the people
who run the theatres and so on, they're really quite nice and open people, er, so but when
you do, em, specifically an Asian show or something like that, you know, everybody,
em, er, is very enthusiastic to, to get a new audience into the theatre and so on, but,
because marketing is such an immediate thing and so responsive, and people don't really
think, that, once these people have walked through your doors, they may be interested
in other, other, shows. You know, they may wish to be interested to be part of your Board
perhaps, or whatever, and, er, that's what ends up happening. I mean, I have, you know,
badgered all the venues that I might have been involved with to encourage them to, em,
keep the audience, em, interested that if you ignite in somebody a love for theatre.
So if you bring a family to see, say, a Tamasha show at the Birmingham Rep, which is based
on a, a Bollywood, er, musical, fourteen songs, two weddings and a funeral, let's say, it's
a very family show, people have seen it, there is no reason why they may not like to see
the Christmas show then because that Christmas show may be very family led, but you know,
you you have to be creative in your marketing, and you have to think like that, and sometimes,
people don't have the time or the mental capacity to do that, because, if your show sells out
very quickly, then you think, oh, I don't need to worry about getting anybody else in,
for any other reason. But, you know, so I do feel, em, sad, that that dialogue is not
an evolving one, it tends to be in stops and starts, you know. Er, I've just noticed that
myself from the, work that I've been involved in and just taking the National Theatre example
in mind, you know, em, maybe, maybe those shows were too much in the past for somebody
like Nick Hytner to take note of this year. Who who knows. I I don't really know, you
know. Em, em, and they, and people are just living in the present, in that way, so, it's
a complicated question, and I don't really know what the right answer is. But as I've
gotten older and in myself, have got, you know, a little more, em, er, what's the word
for it. Kinder about how I see those things, you know. Just have to keep badgering.
So let's come back to the audiences because, a as somebody's that marketing, a, a, production,
you must have many many different audiences in mind, I mean, different strands of audiences.
I mean, how do you, work, that out in your, in your strategy.
I think I try and think of the product that I'm involved in and to, really think creatively
about how, who might be interested in it, you know, and how to pitch to them. Em, in
the old days, I did a lot of, what you might call, direct marketing, or now they call it,
arts ambassador, which is really talking to people with leaflets type stuff, and I still
do that, today, despite a lot of, er, other avenues, and em, but alongside that, you know,
I'm quite aware of social media, em, the niches, so if you were to take, er, two plays that
are on right now, you know, one is a, play by Phizzical theatre company, er, it's a it's
a Bollywood transposition of er, Cymbeline that's going to be on in London and it's been
touring the UK. So, somebody like em, Phizzical, you know, he's been based in Leicester, er,
for around ten years, em, the company nurtures young, er, talent from the UK, so, the pitch
for his show is probably the younger Asian audience who have only started going to theatre
maybe in the last ten fifteen years, and they may not know anything about the earlier theatre
work, em, em, whereas, at the same time, you have Rani Moorthy who is doing a show which
is called, If Only Shahrukh Khan which again takes, a sort of a Bollywood framework to
tell a story that's a little more serious. It's about three women who, run a Bollywood
fan club, and into their lives comes a young black man who says one of those three women
could be his mum. Now, that to me has parallels to Mamma Mia, and also an Indian film called
Mother which is, where Rekha was the, single mom, and three guys come and figure out who
who, you know, whose daughter, if it's their daughter. So, you know, I try and think of
all these kind of mad type angles to, to connect, em, and, again, it's a mixture of, er, direct
and indirect, social media, talking, at the end of day, you know, the whole thing about
talking to people about it is quite important, really, even though, they may have seen it
on Facebook, ro, anything like that. To me it some, seems to be a kind of ethnicising
of theatrical venue. I mean if you look at Cymbeline, it's a appearing at Tara Arts next
week. Rani's work is appearing at Watermans next week, both of whom, have a focus, of
em, South Asian audiences. And then you look at, em, em, em, the Curve, you know now, Leicester,
em, you know, and that again, you know, has a young South Asian director at it's helm,
you know. Em, and... Well, in the in the Studio, for the Studio
really. You mean Suba Das. Yes, yes.
Yah, I mean I just met him last week, but he is only trying to, er, create work, in
order for the Curve to develop it's South Asian audience and he is working in the Stu,
in the Studio but, you know, the Leicester Curve, it's predecessor the Leicester Haymarket,
has been involved in trying to create South Asian audience for at least the last two or
three decades and, the question really should be to the Leicester Curve, artistic or chief
executive, as to, why they, you know... Absolutely.
...always have to start from the bottom. But this the nature of, British South Asian theatre
in a sense. You are, always working your way up from the grass roots.
And why should you 'cause, after all, Leicester is predominantly South Asian anyway, you know,
it's it's population. And em, I think em, tsk, this is why, where, that's why I'm asking
you this question. Because you are in marketing, and, you know, it's kind of interesting to
hear what you have to say, about that. Em, and, I mean, if you feel, there's, the di
di difficulty is still, and, you know, are still here today, after, after, three decades
of work, you know, em, where are we moving to. Are we moving anywhere at all. Is there,
do you see any improvement. Do you see any progress, real progress.
Well, there's real progress in lots of different ways, in the sense that the artistic community
has grown a lot, er, in the sense that the talent that it has created has been, sort
of then rediscovered for television and stuff like that, for example, if you take, say,
er, my sister's theatre company, Tamasha, which actually took a chance on a, actor,
who was writing his first play that's Ayub Khan-din, East is East, and they did some
workshops, you know, like writing workshops, which they still do now, and last year, they
discovered Ishy Din, or, maybe Ishy Din and Ayub were always there in the talent but it
takes somebody to spot it, and to nurture it, so, em, and Tamasha has a very strong
arm of developing artists that continues to do that, but, you know, once they've discovered
these people, everybody else also wants to, to then throw money at them or encourage them
to write. So that's great for those individuals. In in that sense, em, the South Asian theatre
company has been good at, em, doing that sort of stuff, so, if you are talking about progress,
the progress is being made on certain levels. A, you could say the artistic community has
grown. B, you could say it's created talent which has then had it's own evolution to do
work in other institutions and so on. And C, it has created and audience, em, that is
interested in that work, and that is, er, also, em, other people are responding to it
in the in the sense of the wider academic world, or the diaspora. I mean I think what
where we need to go, now, is to find some way of having a little power, er, in terms
of being able to make the creative decisions at the top level, em, within institutions
perhaps. Er, I mean people who are already around, the the artists who are, maybe they,
it's not something for them as their own creative drive, because you have to be motivated by
what you want to do, and you have your own journey alongside a kind of wider political
journey. But, you know, er, maybe in ten years from now, you might get somebody who wants
to, er, run an institution, at, like a National, or, a Birmingham Rep, or, be at the RSC or
whatever. I mean there have been, em, er, people who have been involved in in in that
still, but I'm just saying, you know like, if you're talking about where's the progress,
I do see the progress, em, I do see, I think that we could have more, but we need to have
a little bit more, power in some way. And I think that we need to make some links with
the kind of business and corporate world. I mean I have tried, as as an individual,
and I still keep trying, and I know that people in theatre companies try but, at the end of
the day, em, I think that, em, the Asian business community, to a certain degree, does not understand
how the arts community, works. Or how the arts world works, you know. Er, they understand
things like education, er, supporting poverty, and building hospitals, and supporting charities,
but most theatre companies that exist in the UK are charities, you know. Arts, art is food
for the soul, alongside food. So, you know, it's like trying to, to make people understand
that, it has the equal level of importance. It's not a luxury that you can just add on
when you think you've, alleviated poverty in the world type of stuff, you know.
So you've got we've got these, em, audiences for live theatre. But we also have a massive,
em, for TV and film. And you are in fact currently preparing a programme for radio, on film.
Would you like to talk to us about that? Yah, I've been, er, involved in making a documentary,
er, which will be on Radio 4. It's called Lights, Camera, Akshun! And it's really about,
the early days of, em, film, in the UK, and the collaboration between Britain and, some,
Indian film artists, so I'm talking about er, scriptwriter Niranjan Pal, who who wrote
the scripts of the films like, Light of Asia, Shiraz and A Throw of Dice, which some people
would have heard of, and also his collaboration with producer Himansu Rai and later Devika
Rani. These are all big personalities of the, er, early days of film, and Niranjan Pal was
also involved in theatre in the UK. Er, but em, you know, maybe their names have been
forgotten, but, they did, they were like us, in those early days, like the artistic community
of Britain today, like how we are, trying to do things from the grass roots up. That's
what they were doing at the beginning of the 20th Century. So I find that, should be talked
about and known, because, em, their contribution to cinema, Indian cinema, World cinema, is
as relevant as, the next person's really. So, what, apart from er from that, what do
you hope to achieve, em, from, er, this this awareness of this, this film, this body of
film, em, in terms of new work, creative work. What do you think would happen, with you actually
letting us know about this. Em, giving us a context.
Well, I mean my personal argument is that, you know, this whole idea of Bollywood or
popular film actually emerged out of those silent films of those early days. But that's
just a personal argument. I mean, we don't really, em, we are not able to explore that
a lot in a twenty-five minute programme, so we are telling you a little bit of the history
and making that, but I believe that, if you look at the work of director like Ashutosh
Gowariker or Sanjay Lee Bhansali, you know, you can see, er, er, echoes that have come
out of this silent film era, and in the silent film, maybe we don't have a lot of work surviving,
overall, because India itself has not been great at preserving its past, em, so that
it can be of use in the future, but, you know, there there are these links there, and maybe
it's a unconscious, er, connection, er because, I doubt if those directors went and saw those
early films and thought they're copying it but in the terms, it sort of evolved in the
sensibility. So so the three characters that I'm talking about, Niranjan Pal, Himansu Rai,
Devika Rani, they did leave, em, the UK in the 30s, and they went and set up, Bombay
talkies, which is one of the earliest studios in India which did make some, er very successful
films until, em, the end of the Second World War. So some of those films, which were in
Hindi, er, would be known, er, to, the Indian, em, sort of people in the industry, say, I
can think of a title called Achhut Kanya, which is dealing with the issue of Untouchability,
for example, and, you know, it began the careers of people like Ashok Kumar and Dev Anand and
so on, so, again, if you think of influences, they would have taken their influence from
the silent films, into their talkies, and those talkies which were made in the 40s.
Then the people who worked, young Raj Kapoor used to work in that studio, so then it evolved
into all the work he made, so I'm I'm saying that there is that link in that way.
And what about, em, British, em, Asian film today. How do you see that, sitting, sitting
in this, history. I think, er, the work of the diaspora Asian
community, especially with reference to the UK, is, is where I can really sort of comment
upon, is quite important, em, in the whole artistic, er, dialogue, of em, work. Because,
of, you know, being a British Asian is not just like a racial identity or, I think it's
a sensibility and because, it's a sensibility that's evolved out of the, relationship of
either, growing up in the UK or living in the UK and it's been in opposition to the
mainstream in a subtle way and it's imbibed influences of that. So, the films that are
emerging from that, perspective, are important because, they are, although they may be like
niche stories, they are at the same time, giving you an angle into a certain kind of
sensibility. I can't actually describe it, it you know, er because it's it's not something
that you can put in words, but, it's there, in the look of the thing, in the...in the
understanding, you know, you could say Gurinder Chadha's, you know, Bend It Like Beckham or
a Bhaji On The Beach, which is going to be marking twenty years next year, of, you know,
since it was made, em, comes to mind immediately, but, you know, em... The the sad thing is
that there hasn't been very much work because film is so expensive as a medium to do, that
it's very difficult for people to, be able to, do, as much work as they would like to
in that way, you know. What about TV then. 'Cause there there are
quite a number of TV productions aren't there? Are there?
That that, yah, recently especially, there's there's...
Tell me? Remind me? Indian Doctor, for example.
I actually have been enjoying Indian Doctor Yah.
I I think it's you know, a nice, er, programme. I'm just sorry it's been on at, 1.15, for
it, you know, because I've had to watch it on iPlayer and then I missed the others because
something went wrong with my iPlayer but, but, but as a series, I I quite like, because
in a way, that's talking about the history of the Asian experience in the UK in the 60s,
and, you know, doctors are everywhere, and they would have lived through being the only,
dark person in the village type of stuff, and having to, to make it, it in a nice way,
I think it's it's been a good programme, but, there are there are not many, I man I don't
know what else. I know I see Asian actors in other, er, soaps and things like that,
but, in terms of Asian led, work, on television, it's hardly there now. And that's, quite bad.
And here was a diversity conference in BAFTA about a week or so ago, which talked about
the representation of ethnic minorities in television, er, in 2012, has seen to have
gone done by 5% to what it was, I mean I don't remember the exact figures but it's gotten
less, in 2012, then what it was, in maybe 2007 and that is really quite bad. And I think
the television commissioning editors and all those people are to blame because, trying
to pitch to television, is quite difficult, and trying to convince them, that a story,
er, er maybe worth telling, whether it's a documentary or a drama, is, you know, a big
hurdle. Of course a lot of this is being led by money,
what could sell, as British, and Downton Abbey is for example, prime example of of, of what
is a Britishness that can be s pack, packaged, and sold abroad. Em, and er hence it's it's
it's huge popularity. Yah, I mean you know, Downton Abbey again,
you know, I confess, I'm a fan of the series, but if you think in the last one now, they
brought in a young black actor who's a jazz musician. They were almost going to have a
romance between him and an upper-class girl, which has it's basis in history because it
has happened so, that's quite a good thing that they've done. But that Downton Abbey
is supposed to have been set somewhere in Yorkshire, so they're a long way away, and,
maybe at that point in time they may, wouldn't have been that many ethnic minorities. However,
having said that, when they did their last series, where they had the, soldiers of the
World War One coming in, recuperating in the hospital, they could have had an Asian guy
but, maybe they all went to Brighton, and we need a series based in Brighton. Also having
said that, when Downton Abbey first began, in the first series, the BBC were doing the
Upstairs and Downstairs, they had redone it as a series, sadly they didn't continue it
but, in the, re, in the new version of the series, they also had Art Malik, who had come
over as a secretary to some, dowager woman, who's em, husband had served in India, and
in that first series, the almost have him, having it, a relationship with the Jewish
em, er, er, woman who was in the household, for a particular reason, but they didn't pursue
that series, and now I thought that was quite an interesting in interpretation of a period
drama where, if, when they first made, they never really had it, they weren't, the Asians
weren't even downstairs, as opposed to upstairs, but when they revisited the same theme, you
know, twenty years or thirty years, they were quite aware, of that. So, so, that was quite
a good thing to do. But the then, they didn't carry on with that.
Well Art Malik is quite interesting because of course he, had a great success in The Jewel
in the Crown, and then had to go abroad to get work. And now having to come back it's
quite interesting, you saying, you know, he's come back and to do something...
But that was two or three years ago, when the first Downton Abbey series, but I haven't
seen him since, but he's also involved in theatre quite a lot, you know. Yes, so...
Yah, yah. But really, oh, that's basically I was referring to, you know...
But we are digressing worlds here, theatre, film, TV, that's OK hehehe...
Well, because, you know, em, in our, interviews, we've had had a lot of people talk about,
that the impact of television, and film, and that's how they could have, you know, get,
got bigger audiences, and I was thinking the audience point of view really, leading them
through film, TV, into theatre, and vice-versa, that sort of thing. So I was really thinking
of it in terms of audiences. Well I think that television has sort of become
quite narrow since, the whole channel space, there've been thousands of it, at least British
television, when there were only three or four channels, you know, they had a mandate
to do some work, that reflected, em, the population of the UK, and now, in theory, they are all
signed up to some sort of diversity or the other pledge, you know, er, they tend to interpret
it, er, in, kind of their own individual manner, so it's impossible to say, how it reflects
now. I mean, you know, er, I would watch Downton Abbey because it's a series I quite enjoy
on a Sunday night, for example, you know, but, at the same time, I may not watch The
Great British Bake Off or something like that because it's really not my cup of tea. However,
having said that, er, you know, the programme I made for radio I think would make a good
documentary so, either I'm going to be brave enough and pitch it to television and, suffer
the, slings and arrows of their, rejections, but I'm going to have to make the argument
that they are as like world figures and not just, niche, ethnic figures, for them to,
you know, even be interested in it. So, so, em, since the whole channel arena has grown
bigger, the tele, the UK television sector has slightly narrowed because, also that people
make this other argument, that well you can watch something on Indian TV or whatever,
and the audiences then get segmented because, you may prefer to watch Kaun Banega Crorepati
at the as opposed to the English version of Who Wants To Be A Millionaire because Amitabh
Bachan is a better presenter than Chris Tarrant, I don't know, you know. So, I'm just saying
that, that has led to segmentation of audiences, but, if you are an Asian audience, and you're
a person whose based in the UK, you do want to see yourself reflected on the television,
and in film, and you also want to see yourself in the kind of Indian channels, and, to a
certain degree, it's difficult to be on either hehehe you know.
So do you think there's any currency in em, er, British South Asian theatre as a genre...now.
Well, yah, yah. I mean it's a it's a, em, identity of a certain kind, you know. We we
do have plays coming from India, like say Lillete Dubey's theatre company is a regular
visitor to Watermans, you know, and they do work, em, different kind, they've done classic,
contemporary classics from India, or they've done em, er pretty much er, sort of, er, new
writing you could say, you know. But em, er, the work that's been, developed from the UK
is now very different to say, em, the early days of theatre 'cause, as I said, individual
artistic journeys have evolved and newcomers who are coming in, are moved by different
priorities. Er, er, initially, maybe the motivation was a bit more political, er, to try and address
something, or to be in certain spaces that you won't, to nurture talent. Now, to some
degree that motivation is there but more most people are trying to do it as their own artistic
creative urge of trying to tell a story, so, but it's, because it's, based in a certain,
framework, I do think that the term, term is valid, but that's like, I am using that
term, you know, the person who's doing the theatre work may describe their work in a
different way, which is valid as well. So how does the politics of marketing work,
within all these, and these changes. Er well, in marketing, you know, the, you
really have to, it's a sell.You want people to buy a ticket to come and see the show,
and, er, my approach is to see how I can interest them, in that show. Whether the, the angle
needs to be, a light angle, if I was telling you that, If Only Shahrukh Khan is Mamma Mia
meets mother type stuff, or whether it's a deeper angle, because the If Only Shahrukh
Khan play is looking at the lives of the, inverted commas, the auntyjis, the much aligned
women, the butts of every joke and everything like that, you know. But, they these are older
woman who've had a mixture of lives, they could be sad, they could be happy, and, there
is a lot of people like that in the real world, you know, so it's how you can relate to, to
the show I guess. Or or there is also like a celebrity sell you know, Rani Moorthy's
been in Citizen Khan, for example, you know, you have to use everything at your disposal
to encourage people to see the show, that's what I believe in. At the end of the day,
it's their decision, but, if they give you some time and they listen to you then, that's
half the battle won, as it were. And so, how how do you feel the actual, em,
state of theatre is, em, you're your personal feeling, I mean, obviously you know, it's
different things for different people, but, having, you know, being, in involved in it
from the very very, beginning, you know, in the 70s, how do you feel the state of theatre
is today and how do you feel it has evolved. Well, South Asian theatre really.
Well, I I sort of said, I mean I think, em, it's...it's em, surviving. You you know, well,
the whole, er, thing about grants and money and resources, it has been cut over the last
few years, you know. Companies have been cut. They still have to, they still have difficulties
finding venues to do their work in, er, you know, relationships have to constantly be
made in that way, but, but I think it's a resilient form, because people are trying
to carry on doing things that they want to. Em, as I said, we just need a little bit of
power now, a bit more power, in a stra, in a strategic ways to enable it to, thrive,
hehehe you know. But yu we have em, things like, em, companies
like Rifco's, em, Arts, who are actually are quite, populist. And and they get quite a
lot of audiences and don't have problems, em, filling their auditorium. Em, and that
is, in direct contrast to what Jatinder started out with, you know, with Tara, and what your
sister was doing to, what you are still doing with Tamasha. So there has been this kind
of change, isn't there, and there's a whole lot of...
Well I think it's an evolution, you know, like, Jatinder began, er, as an agitprop,
South of theatre company, became professional, he did the classics, it it has a, a unique
theatre style that Jatinder has been very passionate about, it has performed at the
National, four shows at the National, I mean that's not a bad, er, thing for any theatre
company to be able to say, or any artist to be able to say, that they've had the opportunity
to do. Em, er, and he has a building base that he's created, you know, er, it's going
to evolve in a theatre space. I'm saving up to buy a brick, o in that particular building,
'cause I think it's really important to to have that. Er, Ta Tamasha has also had it's
own evolution, you know, They've done the populist shows, like what Rifco's doing now,
er through their, as I said, Fourteen Songs, and Strictly Dandia, or Balti Kings, you know.
So their artistic journey has been separate, because for them for the artistic director,
now it's changed, their artistic director has changed, they will have a new one starting
called Fin Kennedy whereas previously, the partnership was with, Kristine Landon-Smith
and Sudhar, so they had their own evolution as artists about what they wanted to explore,
and now the evolution is to nurture the next generation of talent, of which they have already
been very good at nurturing, if you were to, tick them off in a list, you know, Raza Jaffrey,
Praminder Nagra, er, Ayub Khan-Din, Ishy Din, just the immediate names, the bigger names
that come to mind, but there have been others who've got the opportunity, to to put on their
work at their Scratch Nights, and it's quite difficult, even as a starting out person to
be able to get a venue, to be able to find somebody who will believe in you, to be able
to do a show, whether, where where it's in a rough state, you know. It's really quite
hard to find. So, and Rifco, is also doing some good work. I mean I enjoyed their Britain's
Got Bhangra, you now, I think, again, it was telling a story about a certain, em, evolution
of another form of art, which is music, which evolved in Britain, through a kind of populist
manner, a musical, whe where they did not just use traditional Bhangra songs or Bhangra
songs that have been around from the 80s, now created by Bhangra artists, they, er,
created new songs, em, which were sung in English, but I I think that was really very
clever thing to do, and, you know, I applaud Pravesh's, em, vision in being able to do
that. So, to come back to the British South Asian nomenclature, I think it's there in
those sorts of things. And also you've got now em, two, em, South
Asians running two theatres, like em, at the Bush and the Tricycle, in London.
Yes, I mean that's, again, that's fantastic. Somebody to have Indhu Rubasingham at the
Kilburn Tricycle, em, and, Madani Younis at the Bush. You know, it's part of the evolution
of that history. It's allowed these people to be creative. Not, that is not to say their
work necessarily is South Asian, or whatever, but, they have been able to grow in the theatre,
world, or feel encouraged, you know, maybe when they were twenty and starting out, because
they were able to see, er, other work, that was around. But, you know, they themselves,
are, very able directors, and they have a huge body of work behind them. But, but somebody
like, say, Indhu Rubasingham, one of the first shows she did when she, em, was made Artistic
Director of the Kilburn Tricycle Theatre was to do a show called Red Velvet, which is about,
ah the life of Ira Aldridge, a Black actor who was working in Britain in the, sort of
middle of the 19th Century performing in the West End. And although people like me may
have known his name in theatre histories, you know, have friends who carry around little
posters of him, and they do small exhibitions all over the place about him, well it's the
first time it was brought to the attention of the wider public and people went mad for
that show. You couldn't get tickets for love nor money. Em, it's coming back again, er,
at the tail end of this year and early next year, and as far as I'm aware, the tickets
have been sold out. So, you could say it's taken twenty or so years for the world at
large to see the name of Ira Aldridge, who, people like me might have heard about in the
80s. You know, so, so, I think that's fantastic. So if one can do work like that, in the future,
you're telling new stories or whatever. You know, it's, it's, fabulous. So even though
South Asian theatre, individual companies as said, we are just like, surviving, at the
grass roots kind of level, and keeping going, the talent that it's nurtured, the people
that it's created, individually, are just, doing good things and that's very positive.
It's a lovely way to end. Shall we end it here?
Yes, thank you very much. Thank you.