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>>> PEACE TALKS IN GENEVA ALL
BUT COLLAPSE WHILE SYRIA
IMPLODES.
TODAY, THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT
LAYS WASTE TO REBEL-HELD
TERRITORIES.
ANTI-GOVERNMENT FORCES TURN ON
EACH OTHER, AND MILITANTS
ISLAMISTS USE THE CHAOS TO GET A
FOOTHOLD.
>> IT'S PAD FBAD FOR THE REGION.
IT IS BAD FOR GLOBAL NATIONAL
SECURITY.
>> IT'S MORE THAN THAT AND
SHOULD BE AN AFFRONT TO OUR
CONSCIENCE.
>> MORE THAN 9 MILLION PEOPLE
HAVE FLED THEIR HOMES AND AN
ESTIMATED 135,000 ARE DEAD.
SENATOR JOHN McCAIN JOINS US ON
THE HORRIFIC HUMANITARIAN
PROBLEM IN SYRIA.
AND CLOSER TO HOME, HIS THOUGHTS
ON WHETHER REPUBLICANS ARE
BLOWING THE MID-TERM ELECTIONS.
THEN --
>> OUR ECONOMY HAS BEEN GROWING
FOR FOUR YEARS.
BUSINESSES HAVE CREATED 8.5
MILLION NEW JOBS.
>> I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
ARE TIRED OF BEING DISAPPOINTED.
THEY ARE TIRED OF SETTLING FOR
THIS NEW NORMAL UNDER THE OBAMA
ECONOMY.
>> CONFUSED ABOUT THE ECONOMY?
US, TOO.
IT'S WHY WE ASK BUSINESSMAN
STEVE FORBES AND FORMER CHAIRMAN
OF THE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC
ADVISERS AUSTAN GOOLSBEE TO
EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING ON MAIN
STREET AND WALL STREET.
PLUS, RELYING ON THE KINDNESS OF
STRANGERS.
HOUSE REPUBLICANS TURN TO
DEMOCRATS TO RAISE THE DEBT
CEILING.
IS THAT SURRENDER OR STRATEGY?
OUR PANEL CONSIDERS SPEAKER
BOEHNER'S NEXT MOVE AND GIVES US
A READ ON THE FRIEND OF HILLARY
PAPERS, WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT HER
PAST AND FUTURE.
THIS IS "STATE OF THE UNION."
>>> GOOD MORNING.
FROM WASHINGTON I'M CANDY
CROWLEY.
THE CRISIS IN SYRIA REACHING NEW
LOWS.
IT IS EVIDENT IN THE NUMBERS.
NEARLY 5,000 PEOPLE DIED IN THE
LAST THREE WEEKS.
THAT'S THE DEADLIEST STRETCH OF
VIOLENCE IN THE NEARLY
3-YEAR-OLD CIVIL WAR.
IT IS EVIDENT IN THE PICTURES,
WITH THOUSANDS OF INJURED, SOME
OF THEM STARVING, PEOPLE FLEEING
THE CITY OF HOMS DURING A BRIEF
CREASE FIRE AND IT'S EVIDENT IN
THE RHETORIC.
>> THIS IS GROW SEARCHING.
>> APOCALYPTIC DISASTER.
>> HORRENDOUS SITUATION ON THE
GROUND IN SYRIA.
>> UNPRODUCTIVE TO THIS POINT,
PEACE TALKS IN GENEVA SEEM
DOOMED WITH NO INDICATION WHEN
OR WHETHER THEY WILL RESUME.
OUR JIM SCIUTO JOINS US NOW.
JIM, THERE'S THIS TALK OF THE
U.S. SORT OF STEPPING BACK AND
THINKING ABOUT NEW POLICIES, NEW
STRATEGIES.
REALISTICALLY WHAT DOES THE U.S.
HAVE THAT IT CAN BRING TO THIS
TABLE?
>> NOT MUCH.
THE ADMINISTRATION POLICY HAS
DEPENDED AT THIS POINT ON PEACE
TALKS WHICH JUST ENDED WITH NO
PROGRESS, NO DATE SAID AND AS
YOU SAID VIOLENCE ACCELERATED
WHILE THE TALKS WERE UNDER WAY
AND THOSE TALKS ARE DEPENDANT IN
EFFECT ON THE RUSSIANS
PRESSURING THE SYRIANS TO BE
ACTORS IN THIS PROCESS, AND IT
WAS A REALLY DAMNING MOMENT IN
THESE TALKS WHEN THE RUSSIAN
DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER REFUSED
TO EVEN DISCUSS POLITICAL
TRANSITION, WHICH IS ONE OF THE
KEY FOUNDATIONS OF THESE TALKS.
>> SORT OF CODE FOR BASHAR AL
ASSAD GOING.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
IF THAT'S NOT ON THE TABLE, THEN
THE OPPOSITION IS NOT TRULY
GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN THESE.
THE TROUBLE IS THE OTHER
OPTIONS, AS THE PRESIDENT IS
LOOKING FOR OTHER OPTIONS, HAVE
IN EFFECT ALREADY BEEN
ELIMINATED, MILITARY
INTERVENTION, NO-FLY ZONE.
IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A MORE
RIGOROUS ARMING OF THE
OPPOSITION, THAT'S HAPPENING,
BUT THAT'S HAPPENING BY OTHERS.
WE HAVE A REPORT THIS WEEK THAT
THE SAUDIS SENT SHOULDER-FIRED
MISSILES AND WE'RE DEALING WITH
THE CONSEQUENCES AS A RESULT.
I'VE GOT MULTIPLE BRIEFINGS ON
SYRIA AS A FAILED STATE AND A
NEW BASE FOR TERROR, TERRORISTS
WHO WANT TO TARGET AMERICAN
INTERESTS IN EUROPE AND POSSIBLY
THE HOMELAND.
THIS IS A HORRENDOUS SITUATION,
AND THE ADMINISTRATION IS
FALLING OVER ITSELF FOR MORE
ADJECTIVES TO DESCRIBE IT.
>> ABSOLUTELY, AND THEN THERE'S
SYRIA GETTING RID OF THE
CHEMICAL WEAPONS DEAL THAT THE
U.S. AND RUSSIA BROKERED AND
IT'S NOT GOING WELL.
>> ALL OF THE CHEMICAL WEAPONS
WERE SUPPOSED TO BE OUT OF THE
COUNTRY BY FEBRUARY 5th.
AT THIS POINT LEDGE 11% HAVE
BEEN MOVED AND THAT MEANS YOU'LL
MISS THE NEXT DEADLINE WHEN ALL
CHEMICALS AND AGENTS HAVE TO BE
DESTROYED BY JUNE.
THE SYRIANS NEED TO BE GOOD
ACTORS IN THIS PROCESS AND YOU
HAVE TO WONDER WHAT IS OUR
LEVERAGE WITH THE RUSSIAN AND
SYRIANS?
REMINDS ME OF THE OLD JOKE THEY
USED TO SAY ABOUT UNARMED
BRITISH POLICEMAN, STOP OR I
WILL STAY STOP AGAIN.
WHAT IS THE LEVERAGE TO FORCE
THE SYRIANS TO ABIDE BY THE
AGREEMENT AND THAT'S A PROBLEM?
>> IT IS AND SOMETHING I'LL ASK
OUR NEXT GUEST.
JIM SCIUTO, THANKS FOR JOINING
US.
JOINING ME NOW, SENATOR JOHN
McCAIN, REPUBLICAN FROM ARIZONA
AND MEMBER OF THE ARMED SERVICES
AND FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE.
SENATOR, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
LET ME START OUT WHERE I
FINISHED WITH JIM SCIUTO WHICH
IS WHAT IS THE U.S. LEVERAGE AT
THIS POINT?
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, RECOGNIZE
THAT THE POLICY TOWARDS SYRIA
HAS BEEN AN ABYSMAL FAILURE AND
A DISGRACEFUL ONE AS WE HAVE
WATCHED THESE HORRENDOUS WHAT
DIRECTOR CLAPPER SAID WAS AN
APOCALYPTIC SITUATION,
PARTICULARLY IN REGARD TO THOSE
PHOTOS THAT HAVE NOW COME OUT.
THERE'S 11,000 DOCUMENTED
PICTURES OF STARVATION, BEATING,
TORTURE OF MEN, WOMEN AND
CHILDREN.
>> THERE IS, SENATOR, BUT THAT'S
KIND OF LIKE --
>> AND THE NOTION --
>> THAT'S YOU'RE SAYING THAT HAS
HAPPENED IN THE PAST.
>> ACKNOWLEDGE A FAILURE.
THEY ARE STILL -- THE PRESIDENT
WAS STILL TOUTING AT THE STATE
OF THE UNION MESSAGE THE REMOVAL
OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
THEN IF YOU ACKNOWLEDGE FAIL
USE, THEN YOU EXAMINE AND
RE-EXAMINE OPTIONS WHICH WERE
REJECTED, INCREASING ARMING TO
THE FREE SYRIAN ARMY, PERHAPS
ESTABLISH A FREE ZONE, BETTER
ARMING AND EQUIPPING.
THERE'S A NUMBER OF TELL THE
BASHAR AL ASSAD TO STOP AND TAKE
MEASURES IF NECESSARY, THESE
HORRIBLE BARREL BOMBS THAT THEY
ARE DROPPING ON PEOPLE WHICH IS
JUST INDISCRIMINANT KILLING.
WE HAVE OPTIONS.
THE QUESTION IS WHETHER WE USE
THEM OR NOT.
AFTER 8,000 PEOPLE WERE
ETHNICALLY CLEANSED AT
SREBRENICA, CLINT CLINT ACTED.
NONE OF US WANT BOOTS ON THE
GROUND BUT NOT TO REVISIT OTHER
OPTIONS WHICH ARE VIABLE, THEN I
THINK I THINK IS THE ONLY THING
THAT WE CAN DO.
THIS IS SHAMEFUL.
THIS IS SHAMEFUL WHAT'S GOING
ON.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE
VIABILITY BECAUSE IT IS ARGUED,
AND IT IS ARGUABLE THAT PERHAPS
THREE YEARS AGO IF WE HAD BEGUN
TO MAKE RELATIONSHIPS WITH SOME
OF THE LEGITIMATE REBEL SYRIANS
WHO WANTED A SAY SO IN THEIR
GOVERNMENT, THAT IS ONE THING.
NOW YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE
LOTS OF FIGHTERS HAVE COME IN
FROM THE OUTSIDE, SOME OF THEM
LINKED TO AL QAEDA, SOME OF THEM
ISLAMIST MILITANTS, WHO ARE ALSO
LAYING WASTE TO SYRIA.
THEY ARE -- THERE'S FIGHTING
AMONGST EACH OH, AND WHAT THE
U.S. FEARS IS THAT YOU FIND A
LEGITIMATE REBEL GROUP.
YOU GIVE THEM THE WEAPONRY AND
SOMEHOW IT ENDS UP REALLY IN THE
HANDS OF THOSE WHO WANT TO
ATTACK THE U.S., AND IT'S JUST A
BAD IDEA TO PUT MORE WEAPONRY IN
A SITUATION THAT IS ALSO
CHAOTIC.
>> ISN'T IT A TERRIBLE IDEA TO
DO NOTHING?
THE FACT IS THAT WE STILL HAVE A
VIABLE OPPOSITION.
YES, THESE FOREIGN FIGHTERS.
7,000 OF THEM, FOREIGN FIGHTERS
ARE THERE.
26,0
26,000 JIHADISTS.
THE BLACK FLAG OF AL QAEDA IS
NOW FLOWING OVER THE CITY OF
FALLUJAH AS THE IRAQ-SYRIA
BORDER BECOMES A TRANSSHIPMENT
AND BASE FOR AL QAEDA.
ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE FAR
WORSE THAN THEY WERE THREE YEARS
AGO.
THERE ARE VIABLE OPTIONS.
THERE IS A VIABLE FREE SYRIAN
ARMY.
THERE ARE PEOPLE, THERE'S GROUPS
THAT HAVE JOINED TOGETHER
AGAINST THESE EXTREMISTS.
ISIS, RADICAL AL QAEDA
EXTREMISTS THAT ARE THERE.
THERE IS STILL VIABLE OPPOSITION
THAT WE CAN HELP AND ASSIST.
WE CAN DO THAT, AND TO DO
NOTHING, OF COURSE, WE'LL SEE A
FURTHER DETERIORATION AND A
REGIONALIZATION OF THE CONFLICT.
LOOK AT THE SITUATION IN JORDAN.
LOOK AT IT IN LEBANON.
AND RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS
RUSSIANS AND SYRIANS AND OUTSIDE
HELP AND IRANIANS, IRAN
REVOLUTIONARY GUARD ARE THERE.
5,000 HEZBOLLAH, OUT OF LEBANON
HAVE COME IN AND REVERSED THE
TIDE.
>> WHY NOT --
>> REMEMBER WHEN THE UNITED
STATES SAID SEAS NOT A MATTER OF
WHETHER WE PROVIDE RELIEF BUT
IT'S A MATTER OF WHEN.
>> I THINK THE POINT HERE IS
BASHAR AL ASSAD IS AS STRONG AS
HE'S BEEN SINCE THE CIVIL WAR
STARTED.
HE'S STRENGTHENED HIS POSITIONS.
HE'S TRYING TO ROUSE OUT THE
REBELS IN THE CITY THEY HAVE
CAPTURED.
ALL THESE PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND
WITH WEAPONRY.
YES, THERE ARE LEGITIMATE GROUPS
BUT THERE'S NO LEGITIMATE WAY TO
TELL IF THEY WILL PREVAIL SO YOU
MENTIONED ALL THE COUNTRIES
AROUND AFFECTED BY THE
HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, JORDAN,
SAUDI ARABIA, LEBANON.
WHY NOT THEM?
WHY CAN'T THEY ARM THE PEOPLE
THAT THEY FIND TO BEING
LEGITIMATE?
I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE SEEN
THE POLLS, SENATOR.
YOU KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE REALLY
RELUCTANT TO PUT THE U.S., EVEN
AT THE EDGE OF A WAR IN THE
MIDDLE EAST, THE MIDDLE EAST HAS
NOT BEEN A GREAT PLACE FOR THE
U.S. TO TRY TO HELP OTHER
COUNTRIES.
>> IF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES WENT ON NATIONAL
TELEVISION AND SHOWED THOSE
PICTURES THAT ARE ON MY WEBSITE
THAT HAVE BEEN RELEASED WHICH
ARE DOCUMENTED OF THE HORRIFIC
THINGS THAT ARE BEING DONE, THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE AT LEAST I THINK
WOULD AT LEAST BE MORE WILLING
TO HELP PEOPLE.
NO ONE IS ASKING FOR MILITARY
INTERVENTION.
THERE ARE LEGITIMATE GROUPS THAT
THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED IN SOME
AREAS AND FIGHTING BACK AGAINST
AL QAEDA, BY THE WAY, WHO BASH
YAR ASSAD IS NOT FIGHTING
AGAINST.
THERE ARE VIABLE ALTERNATIVES
INSIDE SYRIA, BUT WE ALSO HAVE
TO ADDRESS THE OUTSIDE
INFLUENCES.
YOU TALKED ABOUT THE SURROUNDING
COUNTRIES.
JORDAN IS HELPING A LOT, BUT
THEY ARE ON THE VERGE OF
COLLAPSE BECAUSE OF THIS
HORRENDOUS INFLUX OF REFUGEES
FROM SYRIA.
LEBANON IS DESTABILIZED.
THE WHOLE REGION HAS TURNED INTO
A REGIONAL CONFLICT, AND WHO IS
BEHIND IT?
THE RUSSIANS AND THE IRANIANS.
WHILE WE SIT DOWN AT THE TABLE
WITH THEM ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS,
WHILE WE TALK ABOUT THE REMOVAL
OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS, IT HAS
TURNED INTO A REGIONAL CONFLICT,
AND THE WEAPONS FLOW IN FROM
RUSSIA AND THE TRAINING FROM
IRAN AND ALL OF IT IS EVOLVED
INTO THE SITUATION THAT WE'RE IN
TODAY.
DO NOT BELIEVE WE ARE OUT OF
OPTIONS.
THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS IF WE
HAVE THE COURAGE TO PURSUE THEM.
>> THERE ARE HUMANITARIAN CRISES
IN A NUMBER OF PLACES WHERE THE
PICTURES ARE HORRIFIC, AND YOU
KNOW THESE PLACES, MANY OF THEM
IN CENTRAL AFRICA, BUT WE
DON'T -- THERE'S NOT THIS KIND
OF PUSH TO HELP ARM THE REBELS
OR WHOEVER IT IS WE SIDE WITH IN
THESE PLACES, AND I THINK WHEN
YOU LOOK AT THE PICTURES, YOU
CAN'T HELP BUT BE MOVED SENATOR,
AND YOU SAY IS WHAT IS WORSE
THAN DOING NOTHING?
MAYBE DOING HARM.
DO YOU ENTERTAIN THE POSSIBILITY
THAT SOME HARM COULD HAPPEN IF
WE INCREASE -- MORE HARM COULD
HAPPEN IF WE INCREASED IT,
HELPED WITH MILITARY HAPPEN?
>> MORE HARM COULD HAPPEN?
MORE HARM COULD HAPPEN?
CANDY, ALL DUE RESPECT THAT'S
LUDICROUS.
THAT'S LUDICROUS, BY THE WAY.
IN AFRICA WE -- WE MAKE EFFORTS
WITH THE U.N.
WE DO -- WE ARE WORKING.
WE ARE PROVIDING ASSISTANCE AND
THINGS TO DO IN AFRICA.
IN THE MIDDLE EAST THIS
SITUATION WAS PREDICTED AND
PREDICTABLE AND -- AND THE
STAKES HERE, FRANKLY, ARE
INCREDIBLY HIGH.
THE STAKES, HUMANITARIAN STAKES
ANY PLACE ELSE IN THE WORLD ARE
INCREDIBLY HIGH, BUT WE'RE NOW
LOOKING AT A REGIONAL CONFLICT
WHICH COULD OVER TIME DRAW THE
UNITED STATES INTO IT IF IT
SPREADS THROUGHOUT THE REGION.
THE SECOND BATTLE OF FALLUJAH,
WE LOST 96 MARINES AND SOLDIERS,
600 WOUNDED, AND NOW THE BLACK
FLAGS OF AL QAEDA ARE FLYING
OVER FALLUJAH.
DISGRACEFUL.
>> LET ME TURN YOU TO A COUPLE
OF POLITICAL PROBLEMS BACK HOME.
ONE OF THEM IS THAT WE'RE NOW
LED TO BELIEVE BY THE LEADERS IN
BOTH THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE,
REPUBLICAN LEADERS, THAT THERE
WILL BE NO IMMIGRATION REFORM
THIS YEAR.
I WANT TO REMIND YOU OF
SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID IN JULY
OF 2013 IN AN INTERVIEW TO PBS
WHEN YOU SAID IF WE DON'T DO
THAT, MEANING IMMIGRATION
REFORM, FRANKLY I DON'T SEE -- I
SEE FURTHER POLARIZATION OF THE
HISPANIC VOTE ARER AND THE
DEMOGRAPHICS ARE CLEAR, THAT THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY CANNOT WIN A
NATIONAL ELECTION.
THAT'S JUST A FACT.
IS THAT STILL A FACT, AND DO YOU
BELIEVE THAT REPUBLICANS ARE
UNDERMINING OR ENHANCING THEIR
CHANCES IN THE MID-TERMS BY NOT
DEALING WITH IMMIGRATION REFORM?
>> I THINK THAT I STICK
ABSOLUTELY THOSE WORDS THAT I
UTTERED, WERE ABSOLUTELY TRUE
AND STATES LIKE MINE OVER TIME,
THE DEMOGRAPHICS WILL OVERTAKE
NOT ONLY MINE, NOT ONLY THE
SOUTHWEST BUT OTHER PARTS OF THE
COUNTRY.
I WON'T GIVE UP.
WE HAVE THE BROADEST COALITION
OF SUPPORT OF ANY LEGISLATION
I'VE EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN.
BIG BUSINESS, SMALL BUSINESS,
EVANGELICALS, CATHOLIC CHURCH,
THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.
IT'S TIME FOR THOSE PEOPLE IN
WEIGH IN AND BRING PRESSURE TO
BEAR AND SAY, LOOK.
WE NEED TO ACT, AND WE -- I HAVE
NOT GIVEN UP HOPE THAT WE WILL
ACT, AND WE MUST ACT, AND I
WOULD, AGAIN, URGE MY HOUSE
COLLEAGUES TO CONSIDER WHATEVER
WAY THEY WANT TO PURSUE TO TRY
TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE BECAUSE
IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE
ADDRESSED, AND TO WAIT UNTIL
2015 WHEN WE'RE NOW INVOLVED IN
REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES OBVIOUSLY
WOULD NOT BE A VIABLE SCENARIO.
>> AND FINALLY, SENATOR CRUZ
THIS WEEK FORCED REPUBLICANS TO
JOIN WITH DEMOCRATS IN THE HOUSE
TO GET PAST A THREATENED
FILIBUSTER SO YOU COULD RAISE
THE DEBT CEILING, AND YOU VOTED
IN FAVOR OF MOVING PAST DEBATE
BUT THEN AGAINST RAISING THE
DEBT CEILING.
YOU'VE BEEN CRITICAL OF SENATOR
CRUZ, BUT IT REMINDS ME A LITTLE
BIT OF -- COMING AT IT FROM A
DIFFERENT DIRECTION, ALBEIT OF
JOHN McCAIN, THE MAVERICK, THE
GUY WHO TOLD HIS PARTY WHAT THEY
DIDN'T DID WANT TO HEAR.
DO YOU SEE ANY SIMILARITIES?
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE SENATOR
CRUZ IS COMING FROM?
>> I UNDERSTAND WHERE SENATOR
CRUZ IS COMING FROM.
WE HAVE A CORDIAL RELATIONSHIP,
AND I RESPECT HIS RIGHT TO DO --
EXERCISE HIS RIGHTS AS A UNITED
STATES SENATOR WHICH HE DID LAST
WEEK, BUT I ALLEGE THAT THERE
WAS NO PLAN.
THERE WAS NO PLAN ONCE WE HAD
TAKEN THE UNITED STATES ON THE
BRINK OF THIS FINANCIAL CRISIS
THAT WE WERE APPROACHING.
I APPRECIATE OUR LEADERSHIP AND
VOTING THE WAY THAT THEY DID,
EVEN THOUGH THAT THEY FACE
PRIMARY OPPOSITIONS, ESPECIALLY
SENATOR McCONNELL, BUT HE
EXERCISES HIS RIGHTS.
THERE WAS ENOUGH OF US THAT WE
MOVE FORWARD AND PUT THIS ISSUE
BEHIND US AND NOW FOCUS ON
OBAMACARE, ON THE ECONOMY, ON
MANY OTHER ISSUES IN WHICH WE
THINK ARE WINNING ISSUES.
>> SENATOR JOHN McCAIN, THANKS
FOR GETTING UP EARLY FROM
ARIZONA TO JOIN US.
I APPRECIATE IT.
>> THANK YOU, CANDY.
>> WHEN WE RETURN, CLASS WARFARE
HEATS UP WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT
WARNING THAT REPUBLICAN GAINS IN
2014 WILL MAKE IT EVEN WORSE.
>> THE MIDDLE CLASS IS BEING
CLOBBERED, YOU KNOW.
THEY TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE
SHOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT
INCOME INEQUALITY.
I THINK IT WOULD BE A SIN IF WE
DIDN'T TALK ABOUT INCOME
INEQUALITY.
>>> JOINING ME NOW STEVE FORBES,
THE CHAIRMAN AND EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
OF FORBES MEDIA AND AUSTAN
GOOLSBEE, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO AND
FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL
OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS UNDER
PRESIDENT OBAMA.
GENTLEMEN, THANK YOU BOTH.
STEVE, I WANT TO COME TO YOU
FIRST AND READ YOU A COUPLE OF
TWEETS IN DEFENSE OF
BILLIONAIRES BY BILLIONAIRES.
THIS COMES OFF THE WHOLE
DISCUSSION ABOUT INCOME
DISPARITY AND THE UPPER 1%
VERSUS EVERYBODY ELSE.
THE FIRST COMES FROM VENTURE
CAPITALIST TOM PERKINS WHO SAYS
OF AN IDEA HE HAS.
YOU DON'T GET TO VOTE UNLESS YOU
PAY A DOLLAR OF TAXES.
YOU PAY A MILLION DOLLARS IN
TAXES, YOU GET A MILLION VOTES
AND BILLIONAIRE SAM ZELL SAYS
THE TOP 1% WORK HARDER, AND
FINALLY FROM BUD KONHEIM, WE'VE
GOT A COUNTRY WHERE THE POVERTY
LEVEL IS WEALTH IN 99% OF THE
REST RECALLED WORST SO WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT WOE IS ME, WOE IS
THIS.
IN DEFENSE OF BILLIONAIRES, I
DON'T THINK THEY ARE DOING ANY
GOOD IN THIS FIGHT SDPLIN STEAD
OF JUST FOCUSING ON A FEW
INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE OPINIONS
THAT YOU MIGHT FIND FUNDED A BAR
ON SATURDAY NIGHT, OR NOT, THE
REAL PROBLEM IN THE ECONOMY
TODAY IS THE LACK OF UPWARD
MOBILITY.
MEDIAN INCOMES TODAY ARE LOWER
THAN THEY WERE FIVE YEARS AGO.
THIS IS THE WORST RECOVERY IN
AMERICAN HISTORY FROM A SHARP
ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, AND,
UNFORTUNATELY, GOVERNMENT
POLICIES, INCLUDING THOSE OF THE
FEDERAL RESERVE, HAVE MADE THE
SITUATION WORSE, NOT BETTER.
>> AND AUSTAN, YOU KNOW, AS YOU
KNOW THE INCOME DISPARITY IS ALL
THE RAGE NOW, PARTICULARLY IN
DEMOCRATIC CIRCLES AS THEY PUSH
A NUMBER OF INITIATIVES, AND I
THINK STEVE SORT OF HITS THE
POINTS REPUBLICANS ARE MAKING.
IT'S NOT ABOUT INCOME DISPARITY.
IT'S ABOUT OPPORTUNITY
DISPARITY.
HAS THIS BEEN POORLY PACKAGED?
>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S AN
ISSUE TO BE PACKAGED.
I THINK I AGREE WITH STEVE THAT
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT
WE GET THE GROWTH RATE OF THE
ECONOMY UP.
FUNDAMENTALLY I THINK WHAT HAS
HAPPENED, THE REASON THE
RECOVERY NOW WE'RE GETTING A
LITTLE BIT OF MOMENTUM, BUT THE
REASON IT'S BEEN SO SLOW IS WE
HAD A BUBBLE.
THE MAIN DRIVERS OF GROWTH OF
THE 2000s WERE FUNDAMENTALLY NOT
SUSTAINABLE AND FALSE, AND IF
THE ECONOMY CAN'T GO BACK TO
DOING WHAT IT WAS DOING BEFORE
THE RECESSION BEGAN, IF IT HAS
TO SHIFT INDUSTRIES AND SHIFT
GEOGRAPHIES THAT TAKE A LONG
TIME, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE
SYMPATHY FOR GUYS WHO BELIEVE
THAT THEY ARE VICTIMS OF THE
HOLOCAUST BECAUSE THEIR VALET
DID NOT GET THEIR CAR FAST
ENOUGH, THAT'S KIND OF
GOOFINESS.
>> AND CERTAINLY THE SIDE OF THE
DEBATE ABOUT THE ECONOMY, I
THINK YOU HEARD IN OUR OPEN THAT
THERE IS SOME DEBATE ABOUT WHAT
KIND OF RECOVERY THIS IS.
HAVE THE BASICS OF WHAT FUELS
THE U.S. ECONOMY CHANGED SINCE
RECOVERY BEGAN OR SINCE THE
RECESSION, STEVE?
>> WELL, IN ANY VIBRANT ECONOMY,
YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO GET A
CHANGE OF NEW INDUSTRIES, NEW
COMPANIES COMING ALONG.
REMEMBER IN THE 1970s, I'M OLD
ENOUGH TO REMEMBER BACK THEN,
MICROSOFT, APPLE, AMGEN, FEDEX
AND OTHER COMPANIES WERE TINY
BABIES THEN AND BECAME THE
GIANTS THAT THEY ARE TODAY SO
YOU'RE ALWAYS GETTING THAT KIND
OF SHIFT, BUT WHAT'S REMARKABLE
ABOUT THIS RECOVERY IS WE
HAVEN'T HAD A SHARP UPTURN.
WE SAW IN THE 1970s A TERRIBLE
DECADE, BUT AFTER WE GOT THINGS
STRAIGHTENED OUT IN THE EARLY
'80s, BY GOAL THE ECONOMY TOOK
OFF.
THIS SO YOU GET A SHARP DOWNTURN
AND YOU ALWAYS GET A SHARP
UPTURN, AND WE'RE NOT GETTING
THAT THIS TIME.
AND THE FED RESERVE HAS BEEN
PRACTICING TRICKLE DOWN
ECONOMICS.
THEY MESSED UP THE CREDIT
MARKETS WHICH HURT CREDIT
ACCESSION FOR SMALL AND NEW
BUSINESSES WHICH ARE THE JOB
CREATORS AND TRY TO PROP UP THE
STOCK MARKET WHICH GUESS WHAT,
HELPS UPPER INCOME PEOPLE AND
YET THE DEMOCRATS GAVE A BYE TO
BEN BERNANKE AND PUT IN JANET
YELLEN AS A SUCCESSOR TO BEN
BERNANKE PRACTICING A POLICY
THAT HURT CREDIT MARKETS AND JOB
CREATORS, THE NEW BUSINESSES.
>> AUSTAN, IT IS TRUE, IS IT
NOT -- MAIN STREET, I'M SORRY,
IF YOU ASK THE GENERAL PUBLIC
ARE WE HEADED IN THE RIGHT
DIRECTION?
DOES IT FEEL LIKE IT'S GETTING
BETTER?
BY AND LARGE THEY SAY NO.
WHAT WE SEE EVERY DAY AND I KNOW
WALL STREET HAS NOT BEEN DOING
THAT WELL I THINK IN JANUARY,
BUT NONETHELESS, THERE SEEMS TO
BE THIS RECOVERY, IF YOU WILL,
FOR THE UPPER INCOME AND NO
RECOVERY IN THE MIDDLE INCOMES.
>> WELL, I THINK AS A FACTUAL
MATTER THAT HAS BEEN TRUE, AND
THAT DID NOT BEGIN NOW, YOU
KNOW.
THROUGH THE 2000s, THE MEDIAN
FAMILY INCOME FELL $2,000.
WE THEN HAD THE WORST RECESSION
OF OUR LIFETIMES, AND NOW WE'VE
HAD A MODEST RECOVERY SINCE
THEN, AND I THINK THAT DOES
CHARACTERIZE IT, BUT IF YOU LOOK
AT THE SURVEYS WHERE THEY ASKED
SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE WHAT IS
THE BIGGEST BARRIER TO YOUR
GROWTH, BY FAR THE OVERWHELMING
BARRIER IS THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT
BUYING THEIR SERVICES AND THEIR
PRODUCTS.
>> RIGHT.
>> SO IT ABSOLUTELY IS NOT
GOVERNMENT POLICY THAT'S
INTERFERING WITH THAT.
IT'S THAT THE U.S. WITH 2%, 2.5%
GROWTH WHICH IS NOT ENOUGH, IS
AMONG FASTEST GROWING COUNTRIES
OF THE ADVANCED WORLD.
I MEAN, THIS IS A MAJOR
WORLDWIDE PROBLEM THAT WE'RE
CONFRONTING.
>> SO IT ISN'T GREAT, AND
THERE'S A COUPLE OF ISSUES THAT
ARE OUT THERE CERTAINLY THAT THE
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IS PUSHING.
I WANT TO GET BOTH OF YOU TO
RING IN ON WHETHER THESE
INITIATIVES WILL HELP OR HURT
THE ECONOMY GOING FORWARD WHICH
I THINK WE ALL CAN SAY CAN'T
TAKE ANY HUGE BLOWS.
AND THE FIRST IS ON THE SUBJECT
OF RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE.
WHEN THE PRESIDENT SIGNED HIS
EXECUTIVE ORDER RAISING MINIMUM
WAGE FOR FEDERAL CONTRACT
WORKERS, HERE'S SOMETHING HE
SAID.
>> OWNERS OF SMALL AND LARGE
BUSINESSES ARE RECOGNIZING THAT
FAIR WAGES AND HIGHER PROFITS GO
HAND IN HAND.
IT'S GOOD FOR THE BOTTOM LINE.
>> INCREASING THE MINIMUM WAGE,
GOOD FOR THE BOTTOM LINES,
STEVE?
>> WELL, JANET YELLEN LET THE
CAT OUT OF THE BAG ON THAT ONE
WHEN SHE WAS ASKED IN RECENT
TESTIMONY ABOUT RAISING THE
MINIMUM WAGE.
SHE SAID THOSE WHO KEEP THEIR
JOBS, YES, THAT'S VERY NICE, BUT
SHE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT IT WILL BE
A JOB KILLER.
IT WILL DESTROY JOBS.
REMEMBER, IN TERMS OF MINIMUM
WAGE, THEY ARE OFTEN WITH
BUSINESSES WITH SMALL MARGINS,
AND TWO-THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE WHO
START OUT IN MINIMUM WAGE ARE
ABOVE THE MINIMUM WAGE WITHIN A
YEAR WHEN THEY GET SKILLS, AND
MOST MINIMUM WAGE WORKERS,
THANKFULLY, ARE PART OF
HOUSEHOLDS WHERE THEY ARE PART
OF AN EARNING CAPACITY WHERE
THEY ARE NOT SOLE BREADWINNER,
BUT ARTIFICIALLY TRYING TO RAISE
WAGES WHEN YOU HAVE AN ECONOMY
THAT'S BEING HURT BY THE TAX
CODE, HURT BY THE FEDERAL
RESERVE, HURT BY THIS CRAZY
HEALTH CARE THING WE CALL
OBAMACARE, THAT IS JUST GOING TO
MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE FOR THOSE
WHO NEED HELP THE MOST, THOSE
WHO HAVE NO SKILLS OR ARE TRYING
TO BREAK INTO THE WORKFORCE.
THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT ARE HURT
WHEN YOU SUBSTANTIALLY HURT THE
MINIMUM WAGE.
>> AUSTAN, IS THIS -- IS MINIMUM
WAGE AN ECONOMIC ISSUE, OR IS IT
A POLITICAL ISSUE IN WASHINGTON?
>> I THINK CERTAINLY IN
WASHINGTON IT'S POLITICAL ISSUE,
BUT EVERYTHING IS POLITICAL
ISSUE IN WASHINGTON.
>> YOU BET.
>> WHEN I SAW THE PRESIDENT IN
THE STATE OF THE UNION, HE WAS
CALLING FOR MINIMUM WAGE,
RAISING THE EARNED INCOME TAX
CREDIT, INVESTING IN SKILLS AND
EDUCATION FOR LOW-SKILLED
PEOPLE, EARLY EDUCATION,
COMMUNITY COLLEGE.
HE'S IDENTIFIED THE ISSUE OF
ORDINARY AMERICANS' INCOMES
BEING TIED TO AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM
WHERE WE WANT TO GET GROWTH, AND
I THINK JUST MASNARKING ON ANY
ONE POLICY SAYING LET'S NOT
DO THAT ONE, LET'S NOT DO
THIS ONE. THE OVERALL PROBLEM
IS FUNDAMENTAL.
PEOPLE DON'T GET RICH IF THEY
DON'T HAVE CUSTOMERS AND IF
CUSTOMERS DON'T HAVE INCOME THEY
DON'T SPEND AND IF WE DON'T
INVEST IN THE SKILLED BASE OF
OUR WORKFORCE WE'LL FALL BEHIND
OTHER COUNTRIES AND OTHER
LOCATIONS THAT ARE DOING THAT.
SO I HOPE WE CAN TOGETHER KIND
OF ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES BECAUSE
THERE'S NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT
THAN THAT.
>> DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A RINGING
ENDORSEMENT FOR INCREASING
MINIMUM WAGE, BUT LET ME MOVE
YOU ON TO OBAMACARE.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE HEARD OVER
AND OVER AGAIN WHILE THE ECONOMY
HAS STRUGGLED IS PART OF THE
PROBLEM WITH BUSINESSES NOT
HIRING, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE NOT
BUYING IS THIS UNCERTAINTY THAT
IS OUT THERE.
NOW WE HAVE THE PRESIDENT
DELAYING SOME MORE DEADLINES FOR
BUSINESSES TO GET INTO THE
OBAMACARE SYSTEM OR HAVE THEIR
EMPLOYEES GET INTO THE OBAMACARE
SYSTEM OR PROVIDE IT THEMSELVES,
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THAT
AGAIN IS MORE UNCERTAINTY, SO
WHAT IS THE OVERALL EFFECT OF
THESE DELAYS AS BUSINESSES LOOK
AND WHETHER THEY SHOULD HIRE UP
OR LAY OFF, STEVE?
>> WELL, DELAY OF A YEAR OR TWO
WHEN THE PRESIDENT DOES IT BY
DECREE, NOTHING WAS WRITTEN IN
THE LAW THAT ALLOWED HIM TO DO
THIS, THAT JUST RAISES THE
UNCERTAINTY.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RULES OF
THE GAME ARE.
YOU KNOW THE WAY THIS THING HAS
BEEN PLAYING OUT, IT'S DONE MORE
HARM THAN GOOD.
6 MILLION INDIVIDUALS HAVE LOST
THEIR POLICIES, AND THE
UNCERTAINTY THAT THAT CREATES
WHEN YOU KNOW SMALL BUSINESSES,
WHEN THEY GET HIT WITH
OBAMACARE, THERE'S GOING TO BE
ANOTHER SURGE OF PEOPLE LOOKING
FOR NEW POLICIES, SO, AGAIN,
THAT KIND OF UNCERTAINTY, THAT
KIND OF EXPENSE SLOWS JOB
CREATION DOWN, AND THE FACT YOU
MAY GET A REPRIEVE FOR A YEAR OR
TWO, VERY NICE, BUT YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO MAKE LONG-TERM
COMMITMENTS WHEN YOU KNOW THE
RESULTS CAN BE CHANGED OVERNIG
OVERNIGHT.
>> LAST WORD, AUSTAN.
I'M SURE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
TELL ME THAT OBAMACARE IS A DRAG
ON THE ECONOMY, BUT HAS IT BEEN
SO FAR?
>> I THINK THAT ARGUMENT THAT
THIS IS UNCERTAINTY AND
UNCERTAINTY IS WHY BUSINESS IS
NOT VESTING OR NOT HIRING HAS
BEEN UTTERLY DISPROVEN IN THE
DATA.
ON THE HEALTH SIDE, THE FACT
THAT MORE THAN 100 MILLION
PEOPLE NO LONGER HAVE A DOLLAR
CAP ON THEIR INSURANCE OVER
THEIR LIFETIMES AND DON'T HAVE
TO BE NERVOUS ABOUT GETTING SICK
AND DON'T HAVE TO BE NERVOUS
ABOUT STARTING THEIR OWN
BUSINESSES, THAT THEY WOULD LOSE
THEIR HEALTH INSURANCE, ALL OF
THOSE ARE FOR THE GOOD.
I THINK WE'RE IN THIS TRANSITION
PERIOD AS IT COMES IN, BUT THUS
FAR THE DATA DO NOT SHOW THAT
THE FIRMS THAT HAVE BEEN MOST
AFFECTED BY OBAMACARE ARE
GROWING SLOWER OR HIRING ANY
LESS THAN THE FIRMS THAT HAVE
BEEN LESS AFFECTED.
THE EVIDENCE IS NOT THERE FOR
THAT, AND I THINK THE OVERALL
NET POSITIVE OF HEALTH CARE ON
THE ECONOMY IS GOING TO COME
FROM THE ABILITY TO GENERATE
ENTREPRENEURS.
>> SO OBAMACARE, AS WE WOULD SAY
IN THIS BUSINESS, TBD, TO BE
DETERMINED OVER THE COURSE OF
THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS.
>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S FAIR.
>> THANKS FOR JOINING ME.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> UP NEXT, REPUBLICANS THROW
IN THE TOWEL ON THE DEBT
CEILING, AND THE TWO LEADERS
TAKE HEAT FOR THE LOSS.
>> MY JOB IS TO PROTECT THE
COUNTRY WHEN I CAN AND TO STEP
UP AND LEAD WHEN THOSE OCCASIONS
WHEN IT'S REQUIRED.
>> WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE 218
VOTES, YOU HAVE NOTHING.
>>> JOINING ME AROUND THE
TABLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST
MARGIE OMERO, COREY DADE,
CONTRIBUTING EDITOR FOR "THE
ROOT" AND KEVIN MADDEN A
REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND CNN
POLITICAL COMMENTATOR.
THANK YOU ALL.
>> TAKE.
>> YOU SO WHAT'S JOHN BOEHNER UP
TO?
I'M HAVING A HARD TIME.
YOU KNOW, HE CAVED ON THE DEBT
CEILING.
REALIZED HE COULDN'T GET HIS
REPUBLICANS TO AGREE TO
SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAVE AN
ATTACHMENT TO IT SO HE JUST
THREW IT ON THE FLOOR AND VOTED
FOR IT AND SAID WE'RE GOING TO
BE DONE WITH IT.
SOUNDS TO ME A LITTLE BIT LIKE
2014 IS A MID-YEAR, AND WE DON'T
WANT ANOTHER SLAM AGAINST THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY.
>> THE OTHER SIDE, INSTEAD OF
CAVING, HAD A GOOD WEEK THROUGH
THE HELP OF DEMOCRATS BY NOT
SKIPPING OUT ON A CHECK WHICH IS
WHAT HIS CAUCUS WANTED TO DO
SO -- WHICH IS WHY HE SEEMED
CHEERFUL AS HE LEFT THAT PRESS
CONFERENCE SINGING EVEN.
SO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF
VOTERS NOW ARE GOING TO NOTICE
THAT THE DEBT LIMIT WAS RAISED,
YOU KNOW, IF THE DEBT LIMIT IS
RAISED IN THE WOODS, DOES
ANYBODY NOTICE?
THINK PEOPLE NOTICE THE CONFLICT
MORE THAN THEY NOTICE THE
SMOOTHNESS, BUT IF YOU HAD TOLD
ME LAST FALL THAT WE'D BE HERE
AND WE WOULDN'T HAVE THIS
SHOWDOWN, I WOULD HAVE SAID
FORGET IT.
THERE'S NO WAY.
>> REALLY, BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE
SAID LAST FALL ABSOLUTELY
BECAUSE THE FALL WAS SO BRUTAL
WITH REPUBLICANS.
>> LET ME AGREE WITH MY DEMOCRAT
FRIEND THAT JOHN BOEHNER HAD A
GOOD WEEK.
THE HARD PART WAS GETTING THERE.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK
JOHN HAS REALLY HAD A -- IT'S
BEEN A PROCESS GETTING TO THIS
POINT WORKING WITH THE
PARTICULAR CONFERENCE THAT HE
HAS, BUT I THINK HE'S TRYING TO
GET HIS MEMBERS TO FIGHT THE
SMART FIGHT, AND THE SMART FIGHT
RIGHT NOW IS MAKING THIS AN
ELECTION, THE 2014 CAMPAIGN
ABOUT THE CONTRAST BETWEEN THE
REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ON
OBAMACARE, AND NOW THAT WE'VE
MOVED PAST THIS AND DON'T HAVE
THE PROSPECT OF A CONGRESSIONAL
SHOWDOWN OVER SOMETHING LIKE THE
DEBT CEILING, HE'S IN A MUCH
BETTER PLACE AND SO IS THE
CONGRESS.
>> WELL, THERE'S REALLY NO
TANGIBLE CONTRAST BETWEEN
DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ON
OBAMACARE AS FAR AS THE POLICY
BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS HAVEN'T
PUT FORTH A SIGNIFICANT SET OF
POLICIES TO FIX OBAMACARE JUST
YET.
THE KEY IS WITH BOEHNER AND THE
REPUBLICANS, THEY KNOW FROM LAST
FALL HOW BAD THEY LOOKED IN THE
POLLS COMING OFF THAT DEBT FIGHT
AND THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN, AND
THEY KNEW THEY COULDN'T REPEAT
IT.
THEY KNOW THAT EVERYTHING RESTS
ON THEIR ABILITY --
>> STILL GOING TO VOTE FOR.
IT STILL HAD A CAUCUS SAYING WE
WANT TO DO THAT AGAIN.
TO SAY THAT WHILE THEY HAVE
LEARNED THEIR LESSON --
>> BASICALLY THEY DID.
>> THE LEADERSHIP DID, RIGHT?
>> IT WAS POLITICS 101.
BOEHNER SAID I'M NOT GOING TO GO
DOWN WITH THIS SMALL TEA PARTY
MINORITY IN MY CAUCUS JUST TO
LEAD US TO ANOTHER GOVERNMENT
SHUTDOWN.
I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT IN A
MID-TERM ELECTION YEAR.
WE HAVE GOOD ENOUGH NUMBERS OF
DOUBT AND QUESTIONS AMONG THE
ELECTORATE AROUND OBAMACARE SO
WE'RE GOING TO CAMPAIGN ON THAT.
THEY ARE NOT GOING TO TOUCH THIS
ISSUE, AND WE'VE SEEN, IT JUST
LIKE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO TOUCH
IMMIGRATION RIGHT NOW.
>> AND PRIMARY FOLKS.
>> EXCEPT FOR, IT IS TRUE, IT
ALLOWED MOST OF HIS CAUCUS TO
VOTE AGAINST THE DEBT CEILING.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> AND GO HOME AND SAY I VOTED
AGAINST IT AND THERE WAS NO BIG
FIGHT.
LET ME MOVE YOU TO THE SENATE
SIDE WHERE WE HAD SOMETHING
SIMILAR WHERE AN ORDER TO AVOID
A TED CRUZ FILIBUSTER
REPUBLICANS HAD TO VOTE WITH
DEMOCRATS TO GET PAST, TO GET
CLOTURE, TO GET PAST THE FUSTIER
AND GET TO THE VOTE.
MITCH McCONNELL IS IN WHAT MAY
BE A TOUGH RACE, NOT ALL
TOGETHER CLEAR TO ME HOW TOUGH
THE PRIMARY IS GOING TO BE, OR
FOR THAT MATTER THE GENERAL, BUT
HAS HE BEEN GENUINELY HURT, DO
YOU THINK, BUT WHAT HE HAD TO DO
WHICH IS HE HAD TO VOTE FOR
MOVING ON?
>> RIGHT.
HE SAID I HAVE TO PROTECT THE
COUNTRY AND DO MY JOB, AND THAT
MEANS SHUTTING DOWN A FACTION IN
HIS PARTY, A VOCAL FACTION IN
HIS PARTY AND ALLOWING DEMOCRATS
TO VOTE THE WAY THEY DID.
MITCH McCONNELL WILL BE SEEN AS
A POLITICAL OPERATOR REGARDLESS
OF THIS.
THAT WILL BE TRUE BEFORE THIS
VOTE, AFTER THE VOTE.
THIS IS JUST ANOTHER PIECE OF
EVIDENCE, BUT I THINK A LOT OF
THIS IS ALREADY BAKED IN THE
CAKE FOR PRIMARY VOTERS, AND WE
SEAL SEE IF MATT BEVIN, HIS
PRIMARY CHALLENGER, CAN USE THAT
TO HIS ADVANTAGE OR NOT.
>> LESS ABOUT CONSERVATIVE
VERSUS REALLY CONSERVATIVE AND
MORE ABOUT INSIDE WASHINGTON AND
OUTSIDE WASHINGTON.
>> AND I THINK BACK IN KENTUCKY,
MITCH McCONNELL ISN'T IN ANY
WORSE OFF PLACE THAN HE WAS
BEFORE THIS VOTE.
I MEAN, HE HAS HAD VOTES FOR
RAISING THE DEBT LIMIT BEFORE
THAT IF CONSERVATIVES BACK THERE
WHO DIDN'T LIKE HIM WANTED TO
USE IT AGAINST HIM THEY COULD.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I TALKED TO ONE
REALLY SMART REPORTER UP ON
CAPITOL HILL WHO COVERS THE
SENATE AND SAID, LOOK, THIS WAS
ONE OF THOSE CASES WHERE WE
SKIPPED TO THE LAST CHAPTER.
WE ULTIMATELY KNEW THAT THIS WAS
GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN ON THE
SENATE SIDE AND IT DID, AND I
THINK MITCH McCONNELL WILL TAKE
A LITTLE BIT OF A HIT ON THE
EARLY SIDE, BUT HE'S STILL IN A
MUCH STRONGER POSITION BECAUSE
WE'LL HAVE THE DEBT CEILING
SHOWDOWN OFF THE TABLE.
>> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION
ABOUT TED CRUZ.
I'M REMINDED OF THAT SONG IN
"THE SOUND OF MUSIC "," HOW DO
YOU SOLVE A PROBLEM LIKE MARIA."
TO ME HOW DO THEY PLAN A PROBLEM
OF TES CRUZ IN THE REPUBLICAN
CAUCUS IN THE SENATE?
>> HE WANTED TO CONTINUE THE
DEBT CEILING FIGHT DEBATE.
THERE'S NO PLAN AFTER IT, WHERE
DO YOU GO FROM HERE.
HAD TO TELL HIM TO SIT DOWN.
PULLED RANK ON HIM AND SLAPPED
DOWN.
>> HE FORCED THEIR VOTE THOUGH.
>> HE FORCED THE VOTES, BUT YOU
HAVE SEVERAL SENATORS WHO ARE IN
PURPLE STATES WHERE SHUTTING
DOWN THE GOVERNMENT, WHERE
LEADING US TO THE BRINK OF
ECONOMIC RUIN, IS NOT PLAYING
WELL FOR THEM.
THEY ARE THIS CLOSE, THEY THINK,
TO TAKING -- TO RE-TAKING THE
SENATE.
THEY DON'T WANT TO TOY WITH
THAT.
>> WHAT'S INTERESTING, JUST REAL
QUICK, WHAT'S INTERESTING ON
THIS IS IF MITCH McCONNELL, WHO
IS A MATTER OF TACTICIAN IN THE
SENATE, DOESN'T HAVE THE ANSWER
TO THIS, I SURE DON'T, AND I
THINK WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING
IS A LOT OF THE USUAL TOOLS THAT
YOU HAVE AT YOUR DISPOSAL AS
MAJORITY LEADER TO PUNISH
SOMEBODY LIKE TED CRUZ IS NOT
THERE BECAUSE TED CRUZ DOESN'T
CARE ABOUT MOVING UP IN THE
SENATE, DOESN'T CARE WHAT HIS
PROFILE IS IN INSIDE WASHINGTON.
>> THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT
DIFFICULT.
>> YOU'RE FIRST UP OUT OF BOX.
OUR PANEL IS GOING TO STICK WITH
US, AND WHEN WE COME BACK
READING THE TEA LEAVES ABOUT
HILLARY CLINTON'S PAST AND WHAT
THEY MIGHT SUGGEST ABOUT HER
FUTURE.
>>> WE ARE BACK WITH MARGIE,
COREY AND KEVIN.
YOU ALL WOULD LIKE TO SHARE
THAT.
NO NEED FOR LAST NAMES.
DIANE BLAIR, VERY CLOSE FRIEND
OF HILLARY CLINTON, NOW DESEESED
KEPT NOTES.
TREASURE TROVE.
THEY WERE AVAILABLE.
"WASHINGTON BEACON" I THINK GOT
AHOLD OF THEM FIRST.
AMONG OTHER THINGS, THERE WAS
WRITING ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON'S
REACTION, CONTEMPORANEOUS NOTES,
LIKE WHAT HILLARY CLINTON SAID
THAT DAY OR THE IMPRESSION SHE
GOT FROM HILLARY CLINTON, AND
THIS WAS HER REACTION TO THE
MONICA LEWINSKY AFFAIR.
IT WAS ELAPSED, BUT SHE SAID TO
HIS, HIS PRESIDENT'S CREDIT,
TRIED TO PULL IT OFF, BREAK IT
AWAY, TRIED TO MANAGE SOMEONE
WHO WAS QUOTE A NARCISSISTIC
LOONEY TUNE BUT IT WAS BEYOND
CONTROL.
I FIND THIS INTERESTING FOR A
LOT OF REASONS, AND ONE OF THEM
IS HOW QUICKLY THAT SEEMED TO
HAVE BEEN -- THIS WAS EARLY ON,
HOW QUICKLY IT WAS ALMOST
FORGIVEN.
HOW DOES THIS PLAY?
>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS A
SINGLE UNDECIDED OR
UNDECIDED-LEANING VOTER OUT
THERE WHO IS GOING TO CHANGE
THEIR MIND BASED ON THESE
PAPERS.
I THINK REPUBLICANS WHO WANT TO
DIG THROUGH THE ARCHIVES AS IF
THEY ARE TREKKIES OR DEAD HEADS,
TAKE YOUR PICK, SORT OF PORING
OVER THE OLD ARCHIVES, ARE NOT
GOING TO BE DEMONSTRATING THAT
THEY ARE THE PARTY OF THE
FUTURE.
IT'S GOING TO VERY MUCH REMIND
PEOPLE THAT THEY SEEM LIKE THE
PARTY OF THE PAST.
>> SURE, BECAUSE RAND PAUL HAS
FIRST QUESTIONED ABOUT AND LATER
BROUGHT UP AGAIN THE WHOLE
LEWINSKY AFFAIR AND PRESIDENT
CLINTON AS PREDATOR AND THAT
KIND OF THING.
>> I THINK IT'S
REALLY GOING TO BASE
THEIR DECISIONS ON.
IT'S JUST THE EARLY VETTING IF
YOU WILL OF HILLARY CLINTON THIS
TIME AROUND.
RAND PAUL HAS BEEN FAIRLY, YOU
KNOW, SHREWD IN BRINGING THIS UP
INTO THE DIALOG SO THAT AT THE
END OF THE DAY, YOU KNOW, HE CAN
PERHAPS CLEAVE AWAY SOME WOMEN
WHO MIGHT BE LEANING REPUBLICAN
WHO DON'T APPRECIATE BEING
REMINDED OF THAT AND THAT
REMINDS THEM OF WHY THEY HAVE
DOUBTS ABOUT HILLARY CLINTON.
SHE STILL HAS NEGATIVES THEY CAN
EXPLOIT.
>> SHE'S TWO TO ONE APPROVAL
RATING, APPROVE TO DISAPPROVE.
71%.
>> THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE.
>> FOR NOW WE KNOW THAT'S GOING
TO CHANGE.
THERE IS NEWS IN HERE, RELEVANCY
TO THE POLITICAL DEBATE INSIDE
THESE PAPERS, BUT MARGIE'S MAIN
POINT IS RIGHT.
.
THE WAY TO BEAT HILLARY CLINTON
IN 2016 IF THERE IS A HILLARY
CLINTON CANDIDACY IS NOT THROUGH
ARKANSAS AND THE PAST.
IT IS A LITIGATION OF THE FUTURE
OF THIS COUNTRY.
DOES AMERICA WANT SOMEBODY
ASSOCIATED WITH WASHINGTON AS
PRESIDENT WHO'S BEEN HERE FOR 25
YEARS.
DO WE WANT AN OBAMA THIRD TERM?
THOSE ARE GOING TO BE THE KEY
QUESTIONS THAT WILL AID
REPUBLICANS.
NOT ARKANSAS NOT THE PAST.
>> REMEMBER, A LOT -- THERE ARE
A NUMBER OF VOTERS COMING INTO
THE SYSTEM ALREADY IN THE SYSTEM
WHO DON'T REMEMBER THE CLINTON
YEARS.
>> THEY WEREN'T BORN.
COMPLETELY SCARY.
>> FREAKY TO ME.
BUT OKAY.
ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS I LIKED
OUT OF THIS WAS IN HER
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRESS AND
HILLARY SAID I'M NOT STUPID, I
KNOW I SHOULD DO MORE TO SUCK UP
TO THE PRESS, I KNOW IT CONFUSES
PEOPLE WHEN I CHANGE MY HAIRDOS,
I SHOULD PRETEND NOT TO HAVE
OPINIONS BUT I'M NOT GOING TO.
WE KNEW THAT ABOUT HER, BUT THE
WHOLE -- I THINK PART OF THAT
BRINGING UP SHE HAD AN ENEMY'S
LIST AND DIDN'T LIKE THE PRESS,
I THINK THERE'S DRAMA THAT IS
AROUND THE CLINTON FAMILY
WHETHER THEY CREATED IT OR IT'S
CREATED AROUND THEM, HOWEVER YOU
WANT TO LOOK AT IT, THAT THE
LEWINSKY AFFAIR DOES REMIND
PEOPLE OF -- I DON'T THINK
PEOPLE LIKE DRAMA IN THEIR WHITE
HOUSE.
>> WITH THE CLINTONS COME
CONTROVERSIES AND A LOT OF
DRAMA, BUT AT THE SAME TIME
THEY'VE SURVIVED A LOT OF
CONTROVERSIES.
THEY HAVE SURVIVED A LOT OF
DRAMA.
THAT'S THE ONE THING YOU LEARN
ON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS IS
THAT THE LEVEL OF SCRUTINY THAT
COMES WITH IT, THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT NOT MANY PEOPLE HAVE THE
EXPERIENCE IN DEALING WITH.
THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T --
>> AND I THINK A LOT OF WOMEN
FIND THOSE ATTACKS UNFAIR
WHETHER THEY ARE AND SO I THINK
ANYBODY WHO ATTACKS HER IS
BECAUSE --
>> TO THAT POINT THEY FIND IT
UNFAIR HILLARY CLINTON WAS ONE
OF THE PEOPLE INSIDE THE CLINTON
MACHINE PROMOTING AN ATTACK
AGAINST THE WOMEN WHO WERE
QUESTIONING BILL CLINTON'S
BEHAVIOR.
>> WHAT YOU JUST READ ABOUT HER,
WHAT SHE KNOWS QUOTE/UNQUOTE SHE
SHOULD BE DOING WITH THE PRESS
AND SHOULDN'T, IT DOES TO SOME
DEGREE SPEAK TO A LITTLE
RIGIDITY THAT THE HILLARY
CLINTON CAMPAIGN HAD IN 2008 AND
SHE'S HAD TO SORT OF RESPONDING
TO WHAT'S OUT THERE IN THE ECO
SPHERE AMONG MEDIA.
THAT WILL HAVE TO CHANGE A
LITTLE BIT.
A LITTLE MORE NIMBLE AND
RESPONSIVE COMING IN TO 2016 IF
SHE'S GOING TO RUN.
>> THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE
VERY MUCH.
I APPRECIATE IT.
TO BE CONTINUED WITH HILLARY
CLINTON AS WE ALL KNOW.
>>> THANKS FOR WATCHING "STATE
OF THE UNION."
I'M CANDY CROWLEY IN WASHINGTON.
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