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CUPP: Sure, President Obama has issues, but so do Republicans. And Ralph, here's one dividing me and you. The rift in the Cheney family exposed a rift in the Republican family. Wyoming Senate candidate Liz Cheney is against same-sex marriage, even though her sister, Mary, is gay married.
In one of her latest Facebook postings, Mary Cheney fired back at her sister: quote, "Liz's position is to treat my family as second- class citizens. It's not a position I can be," quote, "'lovingly tolerant' towards."
I am one conservative who doesn't think same-sex couples are second-class citizens. And I've challenged my part to be more inclusive.
Ralph, I think Republicans should reclaim gay rights as a conservative issue, because I was under the impression that conservatism, privilege is limited government, marriage and family. Tell me where I have that wrong.
REED: Well, I think you're not only out of step with where the party is; I think you're out of step with where the American people are. Thirty-six states and 70 percent of the American people currently define marriage as between a man and a woman.
It was the position of all the presidential candidates who were viable of both parties until as recently as 18 months ago.
And, you know, S.E., even in the 14 states that have redefined marriage, all but four of them have been by judicial fiat. It hasn't been done by a legislature; it hasn't been done by the people.
And in response to the substance of your question, I think that those who are gay and lesbian are free to love whoever they want to love. And in states where they define marriage in that way, they're free to call that marriage. In other states they can call it a civil union.
But I think it is unfair, and I think it -- it even can smack of anti-religious bigotry to suggest that, if you have a view different, if you believe marriage should be defined as a man and woman, that you are, ipso facto, a bigot or you believe, as you said, that gays should be treated as second-class citizens. CUPP: Well, let me just -- let me just press you on that, because I am not asking you to change your opinion. And I say this all the time, and I put myself out there on this. And I've told other Republicans. You don't have to change your mind.
But listen, I've defended you on religious freedom as an atheist, and I defend religious people as an atheist. Isn't it time, though, that your wing of the Republican Party accept and embrace good conservatives, like the Log Cabin Republicans, good conservatives like GOProud, like Lisa Murkowski, like Rob Portman, don't you think it's time to recognize that some -- in some ways the tide is turning, and we should be more inclusive of these values without having to change our personal opinions on them?
REED: Well, first of all, I wouldn't agree with the premise of the question.
CUPP: OK.
REED: If the tide had truly turned then you wouldn't have 36 states and 70 percent of the American people defining it as between a man and a woman. You wouldn't need the courts to impose this, as they did in Iowa, as they did in New Jersey and as they did, by the way, in California. The people of California have yet to vote to redefine marriage.
CUPP: So you think in ten years' time we're going to be a country that still opposes same-sex marriage and with presidents who oppose same-sex marriage?
REED: Well, I can't predict the future, but I can tell you this. The same young people, the same millennials who today are more inclined...
CUPP: Yes.
REED: ... to support same-sex marriage are also more pro-life than their parents were.
CUPP: I'm not going to argue with you there. You're absolutely right.
REED: The country became more pro-choice in the '70s and '80s.
CUPP: And swung back.
REED: And in the '90s and in the last ten years, it became more pro-life.
Just because something is moving in a particular direction, it's an analytical error to assume that it's going to continue with that trend. And let me tell you why. I'll tell you why I don't think that's going to happen.
Because the most successful department of health, education and welfare ever conceived is a two-parent, intact, loving family with a man and woman united in holy matrimony. And all the social science shows that. It's best for the children. It's best for the husband and the wife.
And the fact is, without saying anything negative about somebody who has a same-sex relationship, the social science is clear that the parenting roles are different...
JONES: OK.
REED: ... for a man and a woman and a husband and wife.
JONES: In some ways, I just want us to be quiet. Just keep saying stuff like that louder and louder.
REED: Affirming loving marriages?
CROWLEY: That was what I thought was actually very good to hear, but I think talking about...
REED: You're against that, Van?
CROWLEY: No, I was actually happy to hear you say that. Being out of step, though, is one of the things you said, as well. And clearly, I think the Republican Party as a whole is out of step on this issue. Not entirely, but overall as a whole is out of step on this issue. I'm glad to hear your common sense on this.
I come from New York state. I'm very proud of the fact that New York is not a state that did it by judicial caveat but did it by legislative action and signed by Governor Cuomo, one of the first states to do that. And it's been remarkable the effect that it's had on people's lives.
I -- Ralph, I appreciate what you're saying, the opportunity for someone to love someone. That's what this is about, as well, and to express that. But this is also not about a religious issue. This is not about the R-I-T-E; it's about the R-I-G-H-T, and to be treated equally under the law. And that's what gay marriage has afforded to millions of people in -- throughout the country, particularly in my state.
CUPP: Well, to me, it seems like the conservative principle. I mean, why are we offering tax breaks to one set of people and not to another set of people? Why are we privileging marriage -- privileging marriage, this institution conservatives absolutely love, monogamous relationship for these people and not these people? Why are we celebrating family and not another kind of family?
If we hate abortion so much, shouldn't we be encouraging gay adoption and the right of any two loving people to adopt babies that are unwanted? It doesn't make any sense to me...
REED: The reason -- the reason why...
CUPP: ... being conservative, not to support gay rights. REED: The reason why is for the same reason why Daniel Patrick Moynihan in 1965 talked about the deterioration of the family. Because there's a compelling state interest in those monogamous unions that are the best for children.
JONES: Can I say something?
REED: And the social science on this, as I said, is clear. And to treat...
(CROSSTALK)
REED: ... other relationships as on par with that is just not accurate.
JONES: You know...
CUPP: Well, I don't think you're a bigot. I want to put that out there. I think anyone...
JONES: Nobody is calling anybody -- nobody is calling anybody...
CUPP: I don't think anyone that has Ralph's views is a bigot. I get it. I just -- I think I can make a conservative case for it.
REED: And, by the way, our view is not motivated by animus towards gays.
JONES: I just want to say something about...
REED: Anthony Kennedy said it...
JONES: I think it's very important to make a couple of points here about marriage. Do you know who's screwing up traditional marriage? Heterosexuals. We're the ones...
REED: No disagreement here.
CUPP: Wait. I just started. I'm two weeks in.
REED: Van -- Van, no disagreement there.
JONES: Let me finish. We're the ones who are getting divorced. We're the ones who are shacking up. We're the ones who are cheating. We're the ones screwing up traditional marriage.
Do you know who's actually saving marriage, who's making marriage actually cool again? It's the lesbian and gay couples that have fought for it, that have stood for it, who have made this a central cause for a generation.
And I think, honestly, we make a huge mistake when we blame social science, we blame all these other things. I know couples. I have -- two of my best friends, Judy and Allison (ph), are the best moms, my own wife the exception. The best moms on planet earth. No social science data, or you or anybody else can tell me that they're doing bad by their kids.
And my big concern here is that this becomes a political talking point, et cetera, et cetera. At the end of the day, your party looks like they don't get it, that they don't understand. And those -- you got kids that are watching the show right now. You are a political genius. You are one of the best in this business. They're looking at you and they're saying, "This guy doesn't appreciate my family." I don't know how your party survives that.
REED: Well, I would -- I would disagree on several levels. First of all, if -- if you really care about marriage, you would be trying to reform no-fault divorce laws so that it wasn't easier for a man to forsake the wife of his youth than it is for him to get out of a cell-phone contract. OK?
JONES: Let's come back and talk about that.
REED: It's easier for you to divorce your spouse than it is to fire your assistant. And that ought to be reformed to strengthen marriage. But you don't...
JONES: We're going to keep going after that. We're going to keep going. After this break, I want you guys to sit here. We're going to come back. We do have a final question for both of our guests.
But we also want you at home to get in on the action. Do you think that President Obama can make a comeback from his low approval ratings? If you do, tweet "yes." If you don't, tweet "no," using #CROSSFIRE. We will have the results after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JONES: We are back with Representative Joe Crowley and with Ralph Reed. Now it's time for the final question.
First to you. I understand your position with regard to marriage equality. We differ on that. But my question is, could you ever support a candidate who disagreed with you on that one issue? Even if they were with you on every other? Would that -- would that issue stop you from endorsing a good conservative who disagreed?
REED: Well, I don't know, because it's a hypothetical. I don't know what other issues they would have. But I will tell you this. In general, somebody who's socially liberal on issues like abortion and same-sex marriage and things like that...
JONES: If they're with you on abortion.
REED: ... is usually not with you on everything else.
JONES: They're with you on abortion. They're with you.
REED: I reject the premise of the question.
JONES: Fair enough. REED: It's very unusual to find somebody who's with you on 99 percent, and they don't get it on that one issue.
JONES: There's one right here. There's one right here.
CUPP: I think -- I think I fall in that category. But luckily, I'm not running for anything.
Congressman, President Obama laid out a very ambitious agenda in his inaugural address: immigration reform, tax reform, climate change, gun control. Has he moved enough for you on any of those issues so far in the second term?
CROWLEY: Well, I'm going to break the rule and just go back to the last point. My wife, Casey, is the best mom in the world. But that's...
CUPP: There you go.
CROWLEY: Look, there are a tremendous number of issues facing our country. I mentioned couple in terms of the fiscal cliff, as well as the continued resolution.
Immigration reform is one of the most -- issues I'm most passionate about.
CUPP: Yes.
CROWLEY: We need to get that done. The president needs to make that a part of the agenda right now and tell Republicans to get it done.
CUPP: OK.
JONES: Well, listen, thanks to both of you for being here. And we are going to keep this conversation going on Facebook and Twitter. If you want to weigh in on our "Fireback" question, "Do you think President Obama can make a comeback from his low approval rating?" Right now, 56 percent say yes; 44 percent say no. The debate will continue online at CNN.com/CROSSFIRE, as well as on Facebook and Twitter.
From the left, I'm Van Jones.
CUPP: From the right, I'm S.E. Cupp.
Thanks to both of our guests. Join us tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts right now.