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>>> Coming up next on "Arizona
Horizon," journalists
roundtable, a federal judge
rules Arizona can require voters
to prove citizenship when
registering with a federal form.
>>> The Senate approves a
budget.
>>> We'll look at more ill-fated
attempts to undermine the
state's new education standards.
The journalists roundtable is
next on "Arizona Horizon."
"Arizona Horizon" made possible
by contributions from the
friends of 8, members of your
Arizona PBS station.
Thank you.
>>> Good evening.
Welcome to "Arizona Horizon"'s
journalists roundtable.
I'm Ted Simons.
Joining us, Luige Del Puerto,
Howard Fischer, and Steve
Goldstein.
>>> A federal judge rules on
Arizona's attempts to have
federal voter registration
requirements conform with
Arizona's requirements.
Apparently the judge said okay.
>> The judge said okay.
The judge ruled that because
Congress has not preempted the
state to pass tougher
requirements in order to become
-- to be eligible to vote,
therefore Arizona, Kansas may
require that those who want to
register prove they are citizens
of this country.
>> It gets more complicated
than.
That certainly the state is free
as far as state elections to
decide who can vote.
The question comes down now to
federal elections, particularly
the fact Congress said while the
state could have its own -- if
you want to use the state form,
require blood type and mother's
maiden name that's fine but
Congress directed them to come
up with a uniform federal
fortunately to make it easier.
They said, how about an avowel.
I'm eligible to vote on penalty
of perjury No.
Proof of citizenship.
It went to the Supreme Court
last year an they said, no,
Arizona can't add it but you can
petition the election assistance
commission.
There's no one on the commission
so the acting director said you
don't need it.
>> They went back to the federal
judge, not in the 9th circuit,
by design.
>> as you discussed with Paul
bender last night, that's a
court that tend to -- that tends
to lean left, or at least as
it's perceived.
So a judge in Kansas went ahead,
could be appealed to the 10th
circuit.
I don't know much about that,
it's in Colorado, but I'm not
sure what way they lean.
One interesting thing to me,
because it's an election year,
again are we going to see voter
fraud versus voter suppression
groups getting people amped up?
There's not necessarily that
much smoke with this fire.
>> what's interesting, very few
people use the federal form but
a lot of voter registration
groups like it because of the
fact you don't have to carry
around documentation.
In Arizona if you have a
driver's license issued after
'96 that's proof of citizenship,
but if you don't have a driver's
license, what are we talking
about, birth certificate, part
port, things like that, it makes
registration of harder which
groups like the fact the federal
form doesn't have that
requirement.
>> it seems clear this issue
will go before the Supreme Court
again.
They indicated there appeal this
decision, so this will play out
before the U.S. Supreme Court
and presumably at that point it
will be clear what we can or
can't do.
>> Until that happens, we have a
two-tier system all ready to go.
You would think it's gone now
with this ruling, no, it's not,
because it's likely to be
appealed.
>> we may have to go.
Looking forward ahead to when
the ballots need to be done we
could be in a real confusing
situation.
Ken Bennett says he's going
ahead with it.
He's thrilled.
He doesn't want to go ahead with
this dual track.
It's a very bad idea.
>> We're spending thousands of
dollars, fewer than 1,000
people.
Even some of the people used the
federal form eventually turned
in proof of citizenship.
We're talking about running a
whole parallel system for fewer
people.
>> Paul bender says we know
which people will be affected.
These are people mostly low
income folks, people who live in
this country who are legal
citizens yet it's hard to get a
birth certificate, perhaps they
don't have the basic money even
to get to the polls.
We're running into a situation,
it could turn into voter
suppression.
>> out of state college
students.
Arizona Republic did research on
this and found 34 cases since
2005, only two of those involved
people in the country illegally.
The others, not citizens but
legal residents appeared thought
they could vote because they had
been here for decades.
They thought they would be able
to vote.
So how much of -- this is --
>> You're trying to prove who is
it talking about.
Unknown knowns.
That becomes the real issue.
Depending who you talk to,
occasionally they will send out
a jury questionnaire.
Somebody will say I don't have
to be on the jury I'm not a
citizen.
Then why are you registered to
vote.
There's that confusion about
legal citizens versus permanent
legal residents.
But you also have the question
that there's a finding that
there's some, the judge when she
upheld the requirement said
there's some.
No one has found anything
rampant.
>> the Attorney General says you
and the rest of the media, not
including myself, the rest of
the media is hiding this issue.
You're hiding it, Howie.
>> this is fantastic.
I talked to Tom Horne.
There's a media coverup on this.
What mete media coverup?
We looked at the numbers from
the court.
He even misquoted the judge.
He said the judge said there's
massive voter fraud.
That's not what she said.
>> what are you covering up,
Steve?
I'm not meaning to cover
anything up.
The issue is folks who are
rampantly passionate about this
and those not in for political
reasons, I know it's hard to
find people like that, feel one
violation is one too many.
We're never going to find 100%
perfection in anything we do.
>> We'll see how far this goes.
Until then we still have a
two-tier system.
>>> We got a budget, all sorts
of stuff going on.
Give us an update.
Senate okays a budget.
Heads to the house next week?
Is that the plan?
>> Correct.
The Senate this week -- the
Senate leadership offered a
budget that was marketed
different than the governor's
proposal.
Then the middle of the week Andy
Biggs said I got some sort of
agreement with the governor's
office and he offered a lot of
amendments that moved his budget
closer if you will to the
governor's proposal.
They passed that budget.
That's sort of -- that came out
of the blue, if you will,
because Democrats until that
point were expecting that this
would be one of those budgets
that would get out of the Senate
but they would have to negotiate
with the governor.
Andy Biggs according to him had
got in some sort of okay, Green
light from the governor's
office, maybe --
>> Maybe.
>> Now we have a budget out of
the Senate, in the house, and
the plan in the house is they
will vote it out Monday or
Tuesday.
>> does the house --
negotiations, are we talking
about behind closed doors and
this is a done deal?
>> As far as the Republicans in
the legislature goes.
The Democrats are sort of
whining in the wings there.
But this is one of those things
that came down from on high.
I'm of the point where used to
build budgets from the bottom up
with hearings and the public
would get to talk.
>> this was something negotiated
if not in the dark of night
certainly behind a few closed
doors.
The house is going to look at
it.
I talked to John Kavanagh, he
said we're pretty much bought
off on what the Senate has done.
We want to do a few tweaks, the
nature of lawmakers.
The question of the governor,
which is why Luigi and I were
smiling at each other, Andy
Biggs said I talked to the
governor.
I'm very confident she's going
to sign it.
Scott Smith, chief of staff,
says, not so fast.
>> very significant issues still
need to be addressed.
That's something the governor's
spokesperson also said.
It's not exactly a deal but Andy
Biggs, you remember, he said I
don't know who he is or what he
says.
>> The interesting thing is we
know there will be changes.
She's never going to accept the
budget that does not add even
more people to the child welfare
agency.
We know that's an issue.
We have a 10,000 case backlog
even before the 6500 that they
have had to fix.
We know there will be more folks
there.
There's some nickel and dime
stuff.
Do we create a whole independent
agency out of this new agency?
Again, lot of nickel and dime
stuff.
>> From a political standpoint I
always thought, especially when
we talk about eliminating
Medicaid, the way that he got
rolled during the last session.
I think Andy Biggs has a tin
ear, frankly.
The fact that he maneuvered in
terms of CPS, common core, but
when he says he and the governor
have an agreement, I think he's
still not in realty.
>> That's hard to say.
It's close.
Even the original budget while
maybe close to 300 million
between the governor appeared
he, you're talking 9.1 versus
9.4 billion, that's not a lot in
the cosmic scheme of thing.
15 million is rainy day fund.
Some of that is funding for
common core implementation.
>> The key to me that Andy Biggs
has moved a whole lot is the
issue about common core.
Initially in his budget he
didn't provide any additional
funding for a test that's
aligned.
>> zero.
>> but then in this new one he
added $8 million, which is
closer to the governor's --
>> That's true but he's running
into the same moderate
Republicans.
Maybe he figured out I'm not
going to get this past them so
may as well give it to the
governor and it's on the
governor to decide.
>> on the governor to figure out
if that's enough money for the
common core assessment.
>> Part of the problem, there's
a couple of issues where Andy
Biggs has a point.
We haven't even awarded and
figured which tests to use so
how do we determine if it's 13.5
or 5.3 or three.
What's the one time cost of
taking the old child protective
services and making it an
independent agency.
Again, these are the unknowns
here that he said, look, we can
fix them later.
>> dropping a lot of Donald
Rumsfelds on us.
Watch that.
As far as the house is concerned
it sounds to me like talk has
already been done and there
shouldn't be too much trouble in
the house.
>> That's the impression we're
getting, in the main the house
is in agreement with the Senate
so far as the budget.
I think they will go to the
floor on Monday, I think that's
the plan, to get them out Monday
or Tuesday.
But then there will be some
tweaks, but so far as the main
appropriations bill, the signal
that we're hearing from the
house that they are in agreement
with the Senate.
>> at what point did Chad
Campbell and Democrats get any
satisfaction?
>> They are never involved
except for when they need the
votes on the Medicaid expansion
they cut a deal with the
Republicans and the governor.
There is money for some of the
things they want.
Is it all they want?
No?
They still have a 6600 person
waiting list for child care
subsidies.
There's more money for child
care.
There's some more education
money.
More community college money.
So are they going to get what
they want?
No.
Are we going to see 30 or 40
democratic amendments whining
for what they want?
Yes.
But there is some stuff there
that helps the Democrats' cause.
>> before we go, this business
of a few people involved in
crafting a budget, how much of
it is Republican rank and file
even involved and are they a
little grumbly about this?
>> They have what they call
small group meetings.
Here's what we're going to do.
Can we count on your vote.
They have a laundry list there.
If somebody needs something,
they may have to make some
tweaks, but the way they bought
most is we got another bill out
here we could help you or maybe
we can kill your bill if you
don't want to go along.
>> The fact is that it's been a
couple of years we have seen a
budget that's really come from
the bottom up.
Last two years this budget we
would have appropriations here,
mostly for show.
Even in those hearings we have
had the public speak less and
less because everybody knows at
the end of the day the speaker,
Senate president and the
governor decide the budget.
>> Most lawmakers are hard
working people but I think the
public saw with what happened
with SB1062, brought on by
national media or not, lawmakers
admitted, I don't know if I read
the whole thing.
When it comes to the budget is
it rubber stamp party base?
>> Individuals have their own
priorities.
Child protective services is a
priority.
You have Andy Tobin who says I
want to restore some of the
highway revenue money.
So some of those things are in
there.
But they get added piece by
piece but essentially it's up to
leadership to cobble something
together they can get 16 votes
in the Senate, 31 in the house.
>> politically this is a choice
before the Republican leadership
in the House and Senate.
They can negotiate with the
governor, bring it closer to
where she could sign it, or they
could let a small number of
Republicans and Democrats craft
that for them.
I think Andy Biggs decided to go
with the first route.
>>> We talked about common core.
Sound like we had more attempts
to kill or undermine or somehow
affect common core.
Again, these things keep getting
voted down.
>> I hate to make another 1062
reference but Al Melvin is so
involved with prosecute common
core -- I want to refer a little
bit macro here.
I talked with a conservative
analyst very much involved in
education who says he's tired of
it being politicized.
He thinks we need the standards
and a lot of Republicans,
conservatives, just don't like
the Obama administration telling
them which way to go.
A lot of them didn't like No
Child Left Behind with the bush
administration either.
They want local control.
We can change the name, but it
comes down to what I have heard
don't tell was to do, especially
the Feds, get out of our
pocketbooks.
>> there's still stuff to be
shot down, isn't there?
>> There's a bill that got out
of the house.
Technically it doesn't abolish
common core but says schools can
choose their own standards, they
cloaked it in student privacy
things.
This will also get to the Senate
floor and meet the same vote as
the other three.
While you can get it out of
committee enough moderate
Republicans say we got burned on
The parallel is the business
community wants these standards.
They have said, testified if we
don't have common core and we
can't be sure our high school
grads with qualified we're not
going to hire them.
>> The conservative wing of the
Republican caucus see they had
voted for are a budget that
included money for testing that
presumably will be aligned with
common core.
I said, why did you vote for
this bill, to Al Melvin.
He said, when the time comes
when I'm governor --
[laughter]
We're going to have a different
-- he said there were some
things they are to do that they
didn't like.
This is one of them.
>> I'm looking forward with
those interviews with Al Melvin.
>>> We're talking about
something different.
It does involve education,
Arizona Supreme Court has looked
at the voucher system, said --
didn't say anything, up hell the
lower court ruling.
>> this is very significant
this.
Started off very small in 2011
to say students with special
needs, if you can't go ahead the
education you need in public
schools we will give you a
voucher-like account good for
90% of the what state aid would
be.
Then it got expanded to any
assistant attend ago school in a
D or F-rated school.
That's potentially 200,000 kids.
The bill awaiting the house vote
says if you go to a school that
is a title one school, which
means half the kids are low
income, you little could get a
voucher and that would be
800,000 potentially once the
caps are off.
The argument was you have two
constitutional provisions, one
that says you can't have aid to
private or parochial schools or
in support of religious
instruction.
What the Supreme Court upheld is
this isn't the issue.
You're benefiting the students.
The state any of given money to
parents -- they are giving it to
parents who are making the
decision and it's legal.
The court said the money from
the state may not go to a
private or religious school
that's a key matter that this
money is up to the parents to
decide where they would want to
spend it.
But you talked about the bill
that's before the house now, and
the Senate, by the way,
identical bills would do the
same things.
Those are stuck.
They haven't been debated yet
and they haven't had full vote
yet.
Representative Debbie Lesko told
me that she thinks this ruling
would help that bill get out of
the house.
Presumably get out of the
chamber, legislature.
>> When you have a
superintendent that is so pro
data a lot of Democrats say --
at least they say can you give
us proof it's benefiting
families in the sense the
education their kids are getting
is better?
There is the common -- an drew
morale from the AEA-- they are
saying if you give us evidence
we're pro students, pro kids.
>> the Democrats keep trying to
attach amendments, look, if
you're gig $6500 worth of public
funds maybe you should have to
take the standardized test.
The counter argument is parents
know if their kids are being
educated.
Well in some cases that that's
true but in some cases the
parents say I don't want my kids
going to school where they teach
that the earth is older than
6500 years.
>> Those caps in that ceiling,
that's all gone.
>> 2020.
After 2019, in 2020.
It's one half of 1% per year.
>> That goes away in five years.
>> theoretically using today's
numbers that's 800,000 kids out
of 1.1 million who would qualify
for the state vouchers.
>> keep in mind it's only
attracting a very small number
of students and families.
About 700 kids that are in this
program.
That's why you have John
Huppenthal -- they wanted people
to know about this program.
So far it's not a whole lot.
We haven't even reached that cap
that we have for enrollment.
We're nowhere near that yet.
>> that's what some say is
behind the Lesko bill, there
aren't the number of people
signing up that they thought so
let's expand it.
>> absolutely.
You said it well.
>> then we'll move on.
[laughter]
>>> Howie, your Tesla that you
have on order, will you have to
go somewhere else to pick it up
or buy it here in Arizona?
>> You can order it online like
you go to Amazon.
I would like a car.
Arizona auto dealers push
through a measure in 2000 that
says you can only sell a car in
Arizona through a dealership.
You want a Ford, Ford cannot
sell directly to me.
Ford can't have its own
company-run dealership.
Has to be independent.
The dealers said that's
protecting us and the public.
That's not Tesla's business
model.
Elon musk, the owner, says we
want to market directly to
consumers.
We have a specialty vehicle
here.
So they had a -- you can go to
Scottsdale fashion square, look
at the car, kick the tires, open
the hood, you just can't buy it
there.
You have to go to California,
order it online.
A bill got through committee
that says we're going to create
an exception fortes la.
The auto dealers have come
unglued as have the
manufacturers who are worried,
why should they get an
exception.
>> Where's the Goldwater
Institute on something like
this?
Sounds unconstitutional.
>> It's possible they may chime
in.
In essence this is an incentive
because Arizona is going against
Nevada, New Mexico and Texas.
This is all about a hot brand.
This is why Arizona wanted to
take over the Mesa plant because
it's going to make Arizona look
hot and happening even if Tesla
cars can't be afforded by most.
Arizona lawmakers are buying
into it.
>> It does make the state
attractive.
Some lawmakers say it has
nothing to do with that.
But this is happening now as we
are courting Tesla to move to
the state.
It does make us a little bit
more attractive perhaps when we
are also saying, by the way, you
have that here, you can sell to
anybody.
You don't have to have --
>> Here's the fascinating
question, though.
This goes back to the 2000 law,
the dealers say they need
protection.
If you are stupid enough to
invest a couple million in
setting up a dealership and you
don't get a contract that says
Ford or Chevy isn't going to
compete with you, that's your
fault.
Why should the state be involved
in what's essentially restraint
of trade.
>> Tesla says it's a conflict of
interest if you're selling gas
vehicles and also trying to sell
mine because you want to sell
the gas vehicles more than mine,
that's not fair.
The dealerships say --
>> But they are selling.
>> Flisk of interest because
they are not selling as they
would if they were dealers only
for electric vehicles.
>> this fight is really about
community investment.
The dealers say we have been
here, we have the brick and
mortar.
Tesla is basically saying --
they know they're hot.
>> This is the same thing going
on in the economy.
Amazon, people buying from
Amazon, not the brick and
mortar.
The economy is changing and it's
about time the state laws caught
up with T.
>> Thank you, gentlemen.
Monday we'll visit with Phoenix
mayor Greg Stanton to focus on
the finer points of his state of
the state address.
and
on the next "Arizona
Horizon."
That is it for now.
Thank you for joining us.
You have a great weekend.
>>> "Arizona Horizon" is made
possible by contributions from
the friends of 8, members of
your Arizona PBS station.
Thank you.
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