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I'm Muzz Khan and I'm an actor. Were you born in the UK?
I was. I was I was I was born in Burnley, Lancashire and I've still got my dodgy accent.
That's great. Is that where you grew up as well ?
Yah, yah. Well I've I've, you see I say Burnley because everyone from London has no idea about
the north of England. So I just generalize. But I'm I'm but I'm actually, so I was born
in Burnley but I I lived in a town called Nelson for most of my life and Nelson is where,
if you ever if you ever heard of an actor called John Simm, or Lee Ingleby, John Simm
is quite famous, or Lee Ingleby, they were from Nelson. They were, they went to my high
school, so, that's my claim to fame. What was it like.
Horrible. Er, hehehe, awful, er the Burnley and Nelson and that sort of area is synonymous
with the BNP. Er in 2001 we had the race riots, which was just horrific. We did, Oldham did,
Bradford did. That was horrible. And the BNP had a stranglehold over the, over the whole
of the northwest, for, as long as I can remember. Probably for about fifteen years now, to the
point where Nick Griffin is now the Eu, the the member of the European Parliament for
the Northwest of England. So it it was always rough, you now. It's the, the cultural divide,
the the racial divide was always Pakistani and White English, with a small minority of
Bengali. One, probably token Chinese family and they owned the local Chinese chippie.
And one token Black family, do you know what I mean. But now it's changed. Now there's
more Polish people, Lithuanians, but the bulk of it is still Asian and Whites and the the
the the tension and friction there is palpable. It's it's always it's always going to be em,
evident. And that's sad. And it's and it's never going to go away.
And how is that manifested, as you, in your upbringing.
Er, there was, I I had a lot of racism. Er I I, I mean this, this you can Google it I
suppose, but I used to go out with a girl called Hannah, and we were together for eight
years. She was White. I was Asian. Er, and, we just got loads of abuse. She got called,
can I swear on tape, nod for yes, and, yah, OK, fine. Er she got called a *** ***,
quite a lot. And we would walk through the streets of Nelson, through the streets of
Colne, the next town, and she was called a *** *** a lot and I was called all sorts.
Em, told to go back to my own country even though I was born in this country. Em, er
and, but by the same token, er, I got abused by loads of Asian guys. There was one instance,
I'll be very brief because this is quite a short interview, em, about me, being with
her, on Valentine's Day, in a bus station. In...
Take your time. Don't don't... OK. Er, it's Valentine's Day, me and Hannah
were at a bus station and we were waiting for the bus. It was our last bus back to Jordan,
back to Colne. And a group, big group of six to seven Asian lads came into the bus shelter,
and they just of started doing that, and sort of going 'Alright mate. How's it going. You
alright luv, you alright?' And I was like, look mate, just plea I'm just trying to drop
my bird off to home and just 'Oh yah. How is it going? What's up? What's up coz? What's
up?' And I'm there going, aw, Jesus. So they they literally squared up to me right. And
I just said, and I just stood up. And I said look mate, can you please back off, like.
I'm just I'm just trying to take her home. Now come on. What what you trying to do? Next
thing you know, they start calling me all sorts. They start calling her all sorts. They
push her to the floor and just beat me senseless. And they beat me senseless, er, for a good
five minutes? Until, some, some, croy, ironically, a group of White lads came over and shouted
and then the Asian guys went off. By this point I had blood everywhere. Hannah was screaming
her eyes out, and I just phoned my brother and said, could you just come and help. I've
been attacked. Can you just drop Hannah off home and just take me to the doctor's or to
the hospital. Er, and that was one of my abiding memories, from growing up there. So that just
gives you a taste of what it's like. It's really, quite fractious. So yeah. I'll stop
now. No. Thank you for, you know, being as honest
as you've been. But that's certainly quite a unique upbringing. Em and I say unique,
obviously it's not very unique in the North West of England.
No. But yet it's unique within the the sector
of theatre practitioners... Yeah.
...living in London. How is it you got from that upbringing er, into being involved in
in South South Asian theatre and theatre widely. Of course you work in multiple sectors. Em,
yeah. How is it that that happened. Er, it all kicked off er, off er, in high
school. Er, quite by fluk actually. I mean I was a class clown at school, as you can
probably tell. Em, I used to mess about and I didn't know what to do, And the BBC came
to our school and filmed in filmed an episode of, of Hetty Wainthropp Investigates. And
that was a TV series with Patrica Routledge and Dominic Monaghan, him from Lost. Em, and
they filmed one episode in our school and I was like, oh yeah, this is cool man, innit.
This is wicked. And the school is like, would any kids like to be involved in it? I was
like yah, I'd like to do it. So I did it. I was only a pupil. I think I think I had
one line in it. It was 1997. I had one line in it. I did it but I was just seduced man.
I was seduced by the cameras and the lights and the booms and the clipper boards and I
was like, this is well cool. I want to do this and I want to be famous. Hehehe. So em,
that's what started my love affair for for acting. And then at school I did a couple
of little plays with Asian characters. And old Asian characters. Em, then I left, went
to college did performing arts in Accrington. Accrington and Rossendale College. Er, took
a year out, joined the Contact Theatre in Manchester for a year. Did a did the the the
Young Actors Company with them, thought, OK, I could possibly do this for a living. Er,
and then em, I auditioned for drama school. Didn't get in. Auditioned for ten places.
Mum paid all my audition fees. Didn't get in. Thanks guys. Wasted. 200 cash. Wasted
down the toilet, Er, yearate, year later. I I auditioned again and this time I got in,
and whoo! Here I am today. Where, where di you finish...
I went to the Webber Douglas Academy of Dramatic Art which is no longer with us. Em, but that
was quite a renowned drama school for actors. Good actors, you know. Steven Berkoff, Angela
Lansbury, Minnie Driver, hehehe. And pretty much every actor from Eastenders went to em,
went to my drama school. And it was a good, it was a really good school. It's just very
tough. Were you so was that Hetty Wainthropp Investigates
that episode was that, would you say that was the ignition?
Yeah. Was that the initial inspiration?
Definitely. It was definitely the catalyst, because before that I didn't have a clue.
You know, whe whe esp...growing up up North, I guess growing up anywhere, but mainly up
North I find, especially in the Asian community, people, hhh are scared to follow their dreams.
People are scared to pursue their real desires 'cause you get frowned upon by parents, as
do most cultures and families. Em, and it was quite tricky for me 'cause, I suppose
I'll tell you how I got into it. I I did high school, and then after high school, because
I got OK GCSEs, I mean OK, I didn't get any stars. I wasn't that clever, Em, but OK GCSEs,
and then my parents said go to college and do A-levels. So I was like, but I really want
to go to Accrington and do performing arts, they said, no, you are going to go and do
A-levels. You are going to do A-levels otherwise we'll kill you. So I had no choice really.
You know, it was either that or be buried six feet under. So I did A-levels. I did English,
Media, Theatre Studies, four weeks. After four weeks, I was just. I as like, this isn't
for me. I'm far too extrovert for this place. So I left that course. Left that college.
Secretly enrolled under the performing arts course and commuted every single day to Rawtenstall
for a month, and didn't tell my parents. And and and I just couldn't really. Hehehe. But
then after about a month or a month and a half, then I told my parents that I'd left
college and they hit the roof. Dad went ape ***. Er, you know, as most parents do, you
know. A few clips round the ear. A few a few black eyes later. Hehe. It wasn't that bad
please. Don't call social services. Erm, em, and then yeah. I sort of eventually, mum was
like, you know, if that's what you want to do, that's fine. Dad was like, uh uh, you
are going to do computers. And mum was like, just let him do it, and if he fails, we'll
say we told you so, and he can follow our dream. Hehe. Turns out I did alright, so,
I'm OK. Cool. What's your journey been like since
then. Em, since you've been working professionally. Good. Er good. It's it's been difficult. But
it's you know it's been a, it's been a struggle. I mean acting is a struggle, full stop, for
anyone. Em, drama school was very hard for me 'cause I I just I didn't I couldn't, I
had a huge culture shock when I moved to London where, I'm from Burnley, I'm from a Pakistani
community, I'm Muslim background, and what would probably be described as a chav, you
know, in today's speak, em, moving to South Kensington darling, which was very posh, lots
of big white houses, Porches, Ferraris, Chihuahuas, darling, so going from that to that, straight
off the back, my head was, I just, I couldn't take it. I didn't understand it, I didn't,
I, oh I couldn't understand London, and the fact that, you know, coming from a very Asian
and White area up North and moving to London, which is a melting pol, pot of every culture
you can imagine, I I just, my brain went into meltdown. I couldn't get it. I didn't understand
it. People treated me differently because they didn't understand this guy who talked
like that, a little bit like that, you know what I mean, like what, exactly, just then,
you didn't understand a word that I said. Er and and people didn't understand what I
what I was like. So, em, I didn't get London, I didn't get drama school. At drama school
they try to correct you as a human being, stand up straight, speak properly, like I
am speaking properly, this is my accent, what's wrong with ya. Ere r, people just were a bit
weird. Em, and so I just, I I shut down at drama school. I'll I just thought, I can't
do this. This is really hard. I wanted to leave, but there was always a voice at the
back of my head saying Muzz, you've come all this far, you've come all the way from Burnley,
you can't leave now, sho mean, it it'll be an embarrassment to your community if you
walk back going, oh I couldn't understand London, I didn't take it. Em, so yah, that
was it really. Er, but that's the journey, and then after, sorry, I keep rambling, I
should stop rambling No please...
Good job you can edit it. Em, and then after this, after drama school, I started acting,
I did bits of TIE here and there. That was OK. Em, and then did bits for small theatre
companies and it was a weird sensation getting paid for doing acting 'cause, it's weird.
'Cause after doing it for free at college, at school, you know in my youth theatre group,
for somebody to go, hiya, we'd like to employ you, as an Asian character, we'd like to give
you, £300 a week, fer, four weeks. I'm I'm like I'd I'd do it for free, you know, just,
just give me food and water, hehehe. That's all I want. Em, and that was it really. And
that was, and that was, so my first gig was doing a play with, with with kids up and down
the country when I left drama school. That was the start of it anyway.
What does British South Asian mean to you. Ooh. Er. It's...just that really. Being British
and from the South of Asia. Er you know, I mean, it's, that's such a broad term, you
know. It's like calling, it's like calling people from China or Japan, Oriental, it's
like...yes, we are South Asian but we're Pakistani, or we're Bengali, or we're Indian, And you
know, the whole Asian term, it's got so much stigma attached to it, it's like. It's it
was coined, I think, by the British, to group together...us people. But you know, we've
got different identities, you know. I'm not, I am Asian, yes, 'cause you said I am. I am
South Asian, yes, because you said I am, but I'm, succinctly, Pakistani. That's what I
am and that's where I'm from. So, you know, Br yes, British South Asian is a, accurate
term. But it's not the bull's eye. It's probably there, d'you know what I mean. Asians like,
the outer hemisphere. British British South Asian is getting closer. But you've hit the
bull's eye when you say, he's Pakistani. Em...and would you characterize some of the
work you've done, as British South Asian. A lot of it is, yeah, a lot of it is. I mean,
the a lot of the work I do is very race specific, you know. Er, 'cause if, yah, it just is.
So, I generally play Asian lads or a person from India, you know. Er, it's generally the
work that I do. Em, I don't mind it, 'cause I'm you you sort of expect that in this business,
you know. If they want a Black person a drug dealer or a mugger, they'll get a Black person
to and they'll put a hoodie on him, and straightaway, that idea's to that stereotype. You know,
for me it's it's kebab shopowners, it's terrorists, hghghg...er it's terrorists, hehehe, it's
you know, it's it's chavs. Em, and occasionally you'll get casting direct, cast casting directors
who'll cast you in non-race specific stuff. Er, or stuff that's slightly out of your range,
so sometimes I do get cast as an Egyptian, or as a Middle Eastern. Sometimes it'll just
be, I'm just called Dave. And that's a relief. Hehehehe. Em so yah. But it it's it's a mixture.
But it's generally, mainly, all British Asian stuff that I do.
Right. Do you think then, that it's still, I mean obviously you get you get cast in em,
in your work, in multiple sectors. Em, you did something quite interesting in Liverpool
recently as well with Kim Cattrall right? Mm, yeah yeah.
Em, but at the same time, as you say, you work a lot with, you know, within the kind
of British South Asian sector...some industry that we have in theatre. Em, do you think
it's still useful, to consider British South Asian theatre as something distinct?
Yeah. Yeah. Because it is distinct. Er and it does have it's place. It really has it's
place. 'Cause it's still a world that hasn't been explored, properly, especially the modern
British Asian world, hasn't been explored in theatre or in film or in television, properly.
I don't think. Em, and you know, if if you think back to the history of the two great
theatre, the the two great Asian theatre companies, Tara Arts and Tamasha, and more recently,
Kali, they've all they've all explored, especially Tara Arts, they've always explored the old,
the the journey from India, and the journey from Pakistan. The Ramayana, the Kama Sutra,
all that stuff that's...days, way before I was born. They've done all that. Em, Tamasha
are slowly starting to probe the modern, Asian life, and that's really good, and it's really
essential, and it's crucial, because there's so much stuff that, nobody knows yet, you
know. Stuff that goes on in our worlds, in our homes, in our front rooms that, you've
not got a clue about. And it and it's actually not. It's not too far removed from the kind
of stuff you see in Eastenders, or Coronation Street. Actually not Coronation Street. Eastenders,
hehe, 'cause that's quite out there isn't it, you know. Em...and it's just, it there's
so mu, there's so, it's it's such a big huge can of worms for us. There's so much stuff
that we go through that you wouldn't even have a clue about. But no one's got the, ***
to write about it yet, because they don't think they're allowed to. Em, and only recently
I did a play with a, by a writer called Ishy Din, and the play was called Snookered. With
Tamasha. And you know what. It's a breath of fresh air. It was just about five lads,
in, Muslim lads, in a pub, hello, getting pissed, playing pool. That was the premise.
And it was just about them doing that, and all the stuff that came out, when you naturally
you drink alcohol, you get inebriated, and all the stuff that comes out, and you know
what, it was so refreshing because it wasn't about a Bollywood you know, it wasn't about
arranged marriages. It was just about these five lads who kind of *** on their face on
a daily basis, in Britain, now. Thank you very much. Done! That and that's a slice of
like, and and when everyone, and when the, the the tabloids and the broadsheets, when
they saw that, they were like, what a great insight into into the world of the Asian man,
you know. It didn't it didn't have anything to do with terrorism either, because everyone
thinks, oh yah the modern Asian today is so easy, he's definitely a closet terrorist,
he must be reading the Koran for satanic reasons. Really? He's just, out there, playing pool
and getting pissed actually. And hoping to find some skirt. That's it.
So with all the, em, British South Asian theatre practitioners then, that that that are existing,
do you think there's a common thread between the stories that they are all trying to tell
or the audiences they are seeking to reach? Do you think there's something that binds
them? Yah. Erbuer I mean the the, obviously the
the, the obvious point is the fact that they're all Asian, or Pakistani, or Indian stories,
full stop. And each is a different strand, so you know, so Tara Arts will always have
the strand of, let's tell things of of how they were, or let's adapt classics and turn
them into something that's relevant to the Indian person or the Pakistani person. Er,
Tamasha have always championed a lot of, and actually Rifco Arts, who I've not mentioned
yet, they really champion the Bollywood side of things, musicals, the story of modern British
mu, British Asian music. Er, Tamasha have always had the the the, their their strand
is modern Asian life you know. East is East, huge thing that they did, em, er and a lot
of their stuff is is is always of the modern Asian diaspora and that and that sort of story.
And Kali again, er er but their's is mainly about Asian women, they only employ Asian
women to write for them, and that's, I mean you know, it's hard enough having Asian performers
of Asian female performers but having Asian female writers and having a company dedicated
just to that is brave. Er and it's de definitely a company to to to watch and to look out for
for the future 'cause you know, that that's the voice that doesn't get told often enough
and all those companies are telling Asian stories, but they've all got their particular
strand and their particular agenda. And it seems as though what binds them you
are suggesting, is purely the fact that they're catering for Asian voices.
What who is? What, it seems, what you are suggesting is
that what binds them... Yes.
The common thread between all these companies, is purely the fact that they are catering
for British Asian voices? You think? Yeah, em...
You think, you think it goes above that? I'm only probing for curiosity's sake.
No, it's cool. They're they're, they're they're catering for that audience, They 'cause it,
it, basically the whole purpose of a theatre company and an actor is to tell stories. That's
what we're here for. We are we are storytellers. Em and they want to tell these these Asian
stories. Em, to what audience? To to any audience that wants to see them. You know, obviously
they want to hold up a mirror to, to the Asian world to the Asian society and say this is
this is your life, we are showing it on stage, but also to to educate and inform everybody
else, you know. The White people that are coming to to to the theatre, the Black people
that are coming to the theatre, em, they all want to see slices of life different to theirs,
be it Chekov, Shakespeare, stuff by aliens, you know whatever it is, they want a, they
want a sense of let's learn about something else, and and and and the Asian story is one
of those stories. When you describe your own artistic journey
which is really fascinating in itself, you've touched on it already but possibly if there's
anything more to tell, em this would be the place to to do it. What was the reaction of
your friends and family when you started working in theatre
You know what's coming don't you. Em, er, phh...well they hit the roof. So my family
hit the roof when I left college and joined the performing arts course. Joined the circus.
They hated it. Em. Was that your entire family? Your siblings
as well. Well, OK. let's be let's be specific. Just
my just my dad, mainly, you know. My mum was like, OK, you know if it is OK for you, make
you happy, it is OK. Brothers and sisters were like, listen, if you get a million quid
out of a film, I want a portion out of it, alright. So er, they were fine with it. Em,
my mates, you know, some of them thought I was gay. I'm not. I'm I'm actually married,
so, you're wrong. Em... To a man.
Yeah. To a woman. Thanks for that Avaes. Er to a woman. Have it on the record. Er, they,
tsk, you know, people think you're weird. People think you're gay. People think you're
odd. Em, no one thinks you're you're going to make any success out of it, any money out
of it, or a career out of it, until when you eventually do, it's hey, Muzz, how's it going
man. So every time I go up North now, you know, all the idiots that used to take the
***, er, when I was younger in Burnley, now go Muzzie brother, how is it going brother?
You alright? Listen bro, I saw you in that film innit, Bradford Riots, on Channel 4.
You were sick man. Like, what's going next man? Are you doing any Bollywood films and
that. And I'm just there going, you know what, I'm not going to phone you the time of the
day, because, I don't actually say this to them, I just go yah, al aright, I'm a bit
busy actually, I've got to shoot off. 'Cause you know, they are the kind of people who
just took the *** and didn't have any faith in me, er, or any belief. And it's and why
they didn't have that? Fear. And it it scares them. Change scares people, er, especially
when you live up North. People are afraid of the unknown. So is, the whole of humanity.
But especially, up North, you know. Especially Lancashire and Yorkshire. We are *** scared
of the unknown. So, if someone says oh, I'm leaving Burnley and I'm going to move to to
to York, people are like, oh, really? Why do you do that. Or or Aberdeen. Or to London.
People are scared of it. And people are scared to do it. Em, so they don't, they they treat
it with a bit of, hesitance. You know, the sort of er, they are not quite sure how to
take it. So that's how it started for me really. My parents were a little bit er, my mates
were like you're a bit gay. Er, one or two were like, yah man, you do it, good for you,
but but the other colleagues, people at school or college were just like, yah what ever mate.
Er, and, you know, er, and more fool to them because, you know, it's up to you then to
to prove them wrong and, I didn't really set out to prove them wrong, I just so happened
to be, alright, and I, I'm doing alright, I've done OK. Em, and it's you know, I don't
go back and brag, he he, told you. I just go up, and you know, and and and if they want
to congratulate me, great, and if they want to berate me, fair fine, you can do that as
well. Probing a little more than on, you're your
unique journey into theatre, em, do you feel as though there's ever been any moments of
particular difficulty. Any anything you could even describe to being traumatic for you in
your journey into theatre, em, and how has been a theatre practitioner or otherwise,
how just being Muzz, helped you turn that into a positivity.
Er, the worse parts I guess in my, gosh, yeah, well yeah. Em, so particular pitfalls that
have really tested my...strength of character. Em, there's been there's been isolated incidents,
incidents throughout my career really. Er, drama school, was er that was that was three
years of being tested, and and wanting to throw in the towel, er, you know, for for
the reasons I said before, but also just for the reasons of just feeling out of place.
Feeling out it wasn't my world. I didn't belong there. I belonged somewhere else. Em, somewhere
familiar. Em, and you know, as an actor, life is a constant struggle. It's never plain sailing.
You're always looking for your next job, you know. People who've nine to five, like, oh
yeah, love to be an actor and stuff, it's like, yeah, at least you've got security there.
You know when your money's coming in. You know you can pay the mortgage or look after
your kids. Or go on holiday or plan ahead. Oh my god, you can plan ahead, Ah! We can't
do that, he he he. Our planning ahead involves trying to plan ahead for work. We can't plan
holidays. Em, so, that's a real, you know, that's it's it's been really hard. And for
me, I guess one major, and it'll, it'll haunt me for the rest of my life, er, I'm still
scarred, er, was getting a film, er, and I might as well put this on tape now, em em,
because it's nearly common knowledge. Er, I auditioned for a film, called Four Lions
by Chris Morris, and that's was a huge, you know, when I auditioned for it, I knew who
Chris Morris was, I knew how big the film was, em, and, I was like, this is it. This
is, if it if it, now that I've got, and I and I and I auditioned for it, and I got the,
I got one of the parts in the film, one of the lead parts in the film. And I thought,
this is it. This is going to propel my career, and hopefully I can be on a different playing
field where I can pick and choose what work I do. Er, and it was all going very well until
sort of two weeks in, er, the the the, the movie the movie people be, the movie business
people came in and, and they came to the rehearsal room, and em, the saw what was going on and
they didn't like it. Er, and you know, maybe my face didn't, well, actually I can't tell
you what the reasons were but maybe my face didn't fit, maybe it was something else, I
know what the reasons were but I can't say it, er, but the but the the reasons why had
to, er take me off, and I was totally fine with it because there are things I can't do
as an actor, physically, which they wanted me to do. Em, and I and so Chris Morris, you
know, nicely said, we going to have to let you go. And he was really nice about it. He
was he was a real gentleman about it and he he said, we're going to let you go, we've
made, you know, we've made a, a wrong decision. We've got to replace you with potentially
somebody else. Somebody who we think is going to fit in the mould we have in our heads.
Er, and I was just distraught. I were just I was just like, winded, massively, sorry
I shouldn't have banged that because I've got a microphone there. Er massively winded,
em, and, it was awful. Er I left Spotlight, which is a casting, which is the sort of actors
directory. I left my agent for a little bit. Went on sabbatical. I left acting. Got a full
time job 'cause I just, 'cause it, it was, for me it was, it was not just the setback
of losing the film, but it was the setback of losing that cash that I would have earned
from the film, that I'd already spent in my head. Em, so yeah, that was for me, that was
horrible. Em, and I left, and I, I did a social media job in Oxford for six months. Went out
of the biz, got probably got a bit depressed, but not depressed as in clinically depressed,
and, you know, got a certificate to prove it, but just as in, I just felt really down,
after that. And it took, it took a phone call from Max Stafford-Clark, who is a theatre
director at Out Of Joint to say we want you to do a play with us with Celia Imrie, written
by Robin Soans, to tour the country, and the play is about Asian people in Burnley. I was
just like, hello, perfect. And that got me out of the doldrums. Em, you know, and that's
just one instance you know, and, I think, by the time this comes out next year, you'll
have read lots of stories about actors in the media taking their own lives, em, in the
press, and it's it's a really hard profession. It's a really cruel profession. People get,
actors get depressed a lot. I mean I've, I'm always depressed really. But it's not...you
you you have to not let it consume you. I mean, after each job, you get a slump, naturally,
and that slump's horrible. I mean, you know, you know, sometimes I don't leave this flat,
you know, I'll just stay at home and I'll be trying to write emails to people to try
and get work. Ringing up my agent all the time. Em and and you don't wanna converse
with people. You don't really wanna go out to watch other plays because you just feel
a bit like a) I can't afford it, b) hhh, that should be more on stage. Er, it's yeah, so
in terms of setbacks, that's generally the biz. Em, and that's one setback of many that
I've had, in my life. But yeah, so just to conclude, it's pretty grim.
And how have you turned that into positivity or have, I mean, that's presuming it's possible.
Em...er it is, and it's it's it's through, it's through trying to remain optimistic,
you know. If you if you, if if I'm friend with you on Facebook, you know, I'd never
ever say anything, pessimistic, it's always op optimistic stuff. I generally, I'm not
a gloomy person, you know. Er, I try not to be 'cause I I've come from a gloomy, and I
guess that. It's from my, it's my childhood, do you know what I mean. I came from such
a crap, depressing area, and suffered abuse from racist scads all my life that I've had
to have this exterior show of hey, I'm good, I'm fine, no it's good, it's fine, water off
a ducks back. I'm good. You have to I've had to have that actually, even though I was dying
inside, I've always had to be optimistic and upbeat, 'cause nobody wants to be somebody's
friend who is just miserable, you know. And you and you and you've got those friends haven't
you. I'm sure, you've got those friends like, hey, how's it going, yah, I'm alright, you
know, *** happens, lau ***, how are you, oh really, OK. My cat died last week. And
you're like, I just I just I just want to go out. I'm in Wetherspoons. Let's just get
drunk and be happy. Em, so for me, it's I've I I, I try and turn it into positive by just
trying to be positive, em, and just looking at the next thing, looking at the next project
and trying to nail it, and with acting, once you lose a job, and you're not working, it
just takes getting one job again, to make you go, hhh, I'm great, I'm back in the room,
here we go. And that's that's all it takes, really. Em, so you're constantly yo-yoing
between emotions, which is, you know, probably, bipolar. But generally, it's it's all good...I
think. You've got a really interesting background.
You already told me already that, you, you associate your family heritage with Pakistan?
Yup. Em, and you're born and raised in the North
West of England. How do those two experiences informed the Muzz Khan we know today.
Er, say the last part of the question again? How do those two experiences...
OK. So the last two thirds? So so so go on. OK, don't, just the whole question.
OK. You know, you got er family heritage in Pakistan.
Yes. And you're born and raised in Britain.
Yes...OK. So those two cultural inputs? How have those
two cultural inputs, er, informed you, who you are today.
Er...I come from a Pakistani background. That's just what I was born with. So I was born with
this colour. Er, and that really does, I don't feel, that Pakistan hasn't directly informed
me of who I, of who I am as a person, I don't think. "cause I've only been there once. I
was a kid. I can't remember anything about it apart from photographic evidence of me
on a camel looking *** scared. I was three I think, or four. So I've not been to Pakistan
since. So as a country in itself, as an entity, don't know anything about it apart from what
I hear on the news, which is not very good. Em, so all I've got to refer to really is
just being born here, and people, and and and the experience of being British Pakistani,
people going, you're a ***, you're a brown ***, hello, let's have you audition for
a play, what part are you going to play, you are going to play an Asian. You are going
to play somebody who talks like this all the time, but it's OK because it's not a problem,
this is how you people speak. OK, I don't speak, I speak with a natural accent, I'm
from the North of England. But yes I know, but for this part you have to be like a Pakistani
person. I am Pakistani, that's what I am. Yes, we know that, but for this part you have,
and I'm just like. So people have said who I am in terms of where I'm from in South Asia.
I don't feel Pakistani, I've always felt British you know. You'd call me a, if hhh, you'd call
me a coconut if you are a fellow Asian person which is brown on the outside, white on the
inside. You know, I don't do many Asian things apart from eat the food, maybe listen to some
of the music and hang about with people with the same colour skin, you know. Ah I don't
really speak the lingo, much. I speak broken Punjabi. So you know, so in terms of that,
er, it's it's hard to, I I can't really say they both, affect me directly, being British
and Pakistani. Being British definitely does, but I think the heritage impacts me, but it's
only impacted me in the sense that people have said, who I am, without me actually saying,
this is who I am, they've told me, be it in a, repulsive way or in a, cop theatrical way.
To me to me, jazz hands , I've got to stop this. Sorry.
What audiences then, do you have, I mean you can tell, the questions are flipping between
your work and the person that you are, so going back to your work now, what audiences
do you hope to reach with your work Everyone. Em, as I I think as any, er, theatre
practitioner, or any performer will say, they want to reach everyone, you know. Just because
of, I just because I have a brown skin and I'm Asian, doesn't mean I just want to appeal
to a brown people. I want to appeal to everyone, you know. Because I I I sort of hope that
my work, or the the stories that I'm telling, that we're telling, are appealing to everyone,
you know. Everyone wants to learn about everything else, about every everyone else. Em, so yeah.
I'll keep I'll keep that one short and sweet. I want to appeal to everyone, with the work
that I do. And how has the work you've done so far, em,
what rather, I'll rephrase that. Which audiences have you attracted in your work so far .
Er loads. Er so, the stuff for Tamasha, and Tara Arts has been, they've been, you know,
they've been obviously Asian plays, but they've been er but, you know, it, they attract white
audiences. So you know, so it's so it's that's to do with marketing more than anything else.
So a lot of the plays that I performed, in, have had mainly a White audience with a smattering
of Asian and a hint of Black and hint of whatever else, er, in terms, of races and colours and
creeds. Em, but it's em...and it's that's annoying because you you sort of, er, the
the point of telling specific stories about Asian diasporas, is to encourage the people
from the Asian community to come and watch the plays because ultimately you're you're
you're reflecting their lives and you're trying to tell their stories. You want their stories
to be heard, by the people, you are telling them to. Er, but it's generally White audiences
and that's you know, that's just a cultural theatre, theatre itself is, in this country,
and and I guess maybe throughout the world, well not, nn, you know, that's a lie, em mainly
in this country or from the States, it will be a White audience. I think marketeers and
marketing people are trying to address that and trying to get more, you know, ethnic minority
people into the theatre and that's good. Er, but for the ethnic minorities, we feel, we
don't belong there, you know. And I...I feel I belong there because I'm in the in the mix
of it. But, you know, if I speak to my mates, they like, oh but why do you want to go to
the theatre man 'cause it's like for the White people innit. Or it's a bit posh innit, or
it's a bit like, or it's 35 quid a ticket innit. We can go to a cinema, we can watch
sort of 10 quid, or we can watch it on our DVDs for free, illegally. Em, so people have
their different ways of consuming entertainment, and ultimately, if it's free, they'll have
it, because everyone loves a freebie. Em, but generally, it's it's the fact that people
don't belong, and theatre i always will always feel like an elitist, er, entertainment medium.
Film isn't. Film has never been that elitist, it's 'cause it's, it's shoved in your, into
your living room, and that is deemed more accessible, 'cause it is. But something that
involves, man, going out of man's flat, into somebody else's domain to watch entertainment,
that is a big journey to take, and I think, a lot of ethnic minority communities aren't
willing, or able to make that leap, 'cause that's quite a journey, you know. If I'm Asian
or I'm Black and I've got my comedy on my TV or my laptop, why would I want to go anywhere
else? If I've got music in my, on my hifi why would I go any, you see I've got it round
me. So you know, er, it's it's about accessibility. And I think we should make things more accessible
to those people, and if we can't, then the next best thing is to go and do it in their
houses. Do you know what I mean? Em, how's the work you've done so far, how
do you feel that's reflected the lives of everyday people
Er, and again? The work you've done so far? How do you feel
that's reflected the lives of everyday people. How it's re, how er what, how it reflects
them? Eh, 'cause it's, well OK. So the work, OK, so that's mainly, er I guess a writer's
answer or question, because they are the people who write the stories. Er. It reflects them
because, you know, what OK, with Snookered. It was a play about five Asian guys, in a
pub, getting pissed. That's a unique story that reflects what most Asian guys, most Muslim,
Asian, Pakistani men, do, in this country that we've never seen before. And it happens
week in week out, but, has anyone put that on stage yet? No. So that's one reflection.
Em, trying to think of some more, er, off the top of my head, with a camera rolling.
Er, dedede...god, that's so much. Em, Out Of Joint then, so Max Stafford-Clark, the
play I did for him, that that was about Asian and White people in Burnley or in Lancashire.
Again it reflected them, because it was verbatim. So they were actual accounts from real people.
So how real can you get and how real how how reflective can you get other than that. Verbatim
theatre is reflection, by definition. Em, so yeah, so you know, and so it it just it
does. Er you'll have to take my word for it. (laughs) You know. Ah it it is it is reflective,
er, and you only have to watch a play to recognize the characters. If you basically, if you recognize
a character in play, and and if you go, aw man, I know that person, that kind of person
lives on my street, or, that's my next door neighbor. Aw my god I see Trace in my in my
girlfriend. That's when you know it reflect real life because, it's all about recognition,
and resonance. And if it resonates with you and if and if you recognize something in a
play or in a story or in a character, that's reflection.
Some people feel, well, people in rural areas that have been spoken to, they feel more disconnected
to theatre, I suppose most theatremakers, they haven't the environments. How do you
feel about that. Yeah. I I can totally feel happy with being
disconnected. Er, but what are the reasons they give? Why why why are they disconnected?
Em, they're not giving any reasons OK
They are just saying they they feel, they don't feel connected to theatre
Em, I can understand why, 'cause it's you know, especially the West End, you know you
know. I can I can... Oh excuse me, there are some reasons.
Oh good. Because it didn't reflect their lives, so
they didn't go to performances, and who are these goys, They are not connected with us.
Cool. Hehe, OK so, er, right. So the fir the first is er, the stories don't reflect us.
If you are talking about Noel Coward, right, and Hayfever, and and Private Lives and stuff,
then no. It doesn't reflect you. It probably reflects a a Golden Age of England that you
weren't even alive, er in, but, yeah, it probably doesn't. But em, a lot of it does. Er, and
coming from somebody who's, I mean you know, I'm not privileged, do you know what I mean?
I didn't you know, when people talk about reflection and when people talk about it it
doesn't connected to me, it's because generally it's a it's a it's about elitism. And it's
about not feeling that it relates to them because it's, of a different world. So generally
well I won't I think the perception is you are talking about places like the National
Theatre, or the West End, performed by, White actors charging 50 quid a ticket. If I'm an
Asian person from Burnley that completely doesn't relate to me, it doesn't reflect me,
I'm not going to go. Unless Shahrukh Khan is in it, then I'm going to go. But otherwise,
no. Er, so I get that, because that is, mean even I even I, feel a bit, em, dis, dis...er
dis disconnected from that. Er, but for the plays that are coming into Leicester Curve,
to Manchester's Contact, to Bradford's Alhambra, to West Yorkshire Playhouse and Leeds, to
to to Birmingham Rep, they are, there's there's such a community there, and of of of Asian
people, of Black people, that the stories that are being shown in those theatres, are
reflective of their communities because they are written by the people who live there,
and are of their ethnicity. So I disagree with that because I think it's changing more
and more. You know, it's getting more and more access, theatre is getting more and more
accessible 'cause people, even even to theatre in the West End in London, are realizing they
are being elitist and they and they and they can't charge so much for prices, and they've
got to change their stories, they can't just all be all highbrow stuff. It's got to be
stuff about real life. So every the whole the whole of theatre is changing and it's
on a mission to make itself more accessible. For the for the greater good, 'cause ultimately
theatre is about being a force for good or for for change. Er, and I think, you know,
for people who still have that belief in their system, I promise you, it's changing, and
we're changing it, as we speak. Coming back to the South Asian experience
again, that's change a lot even on, in our time. In your time.
Yeah. Em, it's evolved quite a bit from when you
were younger to the way things are today. And partly that's probably because you've
moved out of Burnley yourself and you've seen the South Asian experience in London. Em,
how do you feel your work has changed in accordance with that. How do you feel the work of British
South Asian theatre, or your work, in British South Asian theatre has changed, you now,
parallel to that change in the community? Em, So OK so ephh, I'll I'll just talk from
my experience. Er so, I guess, since, you know, the late 90s to the early noughties
to now 2013, em, I've seen changes in scripts that I've read. So I, you know, audition for
loads of plays we can we can, well, month in month out, hehehe, I won't say week in
week out, because I need a better agent for that, em, em, I'm joking, no I'm not, (laughs),
em, it's you know, the scripts that I read are changing because of the stories that I
am hearing and reading, you know. And the stories that excite me now are stories that
I haven't heard before, you know. So when I first started, you know, it was it was kebab
shop owners, it was it was terrorists, I had es especially for TV and film, oh god, the
amount of scripts I read for wannabe terrorists and stuff, I'm just like, oh, shoot me in
the head now please, or, ultimately, give me a backpack with a bomb in it so I kill
myself, that would be more apt, wouldn't t. So, yeah, that was quite annoying. Em, and
it changed, because people got sick of it, you know. Because people are getting bored
with that old terrorism thing now. Em, and it's now you know, stories are changing, Eastenders
is changing, you know soaps are changing, with the with the way they, even Neighbours,
for heaven's sake, they've not got an Asian family in, which is great, but er it it's.
the stories are, you know, I'm rambling a bit, so I'm going to rewind. I'm going to
start again. Sorry. OK, so I started off terrorists, OK co corner shop owners, er, and rude boys,
right? That's now changed to my characters being everyday guys. You know, just some guy
who want to open a chicken shop in Bradford, and can't because he gets messed up in, playing
pool, getting pissed and drugs. Er, the stories are getting more real. They inv they they're
getting more, pertinent to be what it's like to be a modern Asian in 2013, which is good.
Em, but if you compare it to where Tara Arts were thirty years ago, where Tamasha were
twenty years ago, they've come on in leaps and bounds since then as well. We we're we're
changing our focus a lot with with the stories we have to tell. Er, they're becoming more
and more, nuanced, and and finely-tuned, and I think that's good. I think the writers now
are getting more aware, they're getting bored of, oh no, not another terrorist play again.
Because they don't want to write about that They want to write about other things, and
I think the writers now, becoming more brave, and instead of pandering to the execs, they
are thinking, no I don't want to write a story about terrorists, because that's not true.
Let me let me write a story about this. This is what's happening in Bradford right now.
This is what's happening in Southall right now. Let's put it on. And people are now saying,
yah, OK, let's do it. People are taking risks, which is good.
So, so there seems to be a cultural change at the moment.
Mm, hm. Given that change, where do you think we are
today If pinpointable, where do you think the state of theatre, British South Asian
theatre generally where do you think that that is today.
Er, phhh...it var, oh god. It, it varies. I I think some theatre companies are nailing
it. I think some theatre companies aren't. Em, I really think Tamasha are are are are
getting back to greatness again, you know, em, because they are taking risks, and that's
good. Er, and, so where are we at today? We are telling more stories that are about now.
We are telling more stories about Asian people today, er, you you know, where where where,
we are cutting away the crap. We are not being, we are being more braver with our writing,
you know. If there's a story about grooming, because we all know about grooming happening
in Blackburn, in Rochdale or whatever, we are now writing about that, where before we
we wouldn't, you know. Em, if there's stories about, ***, in a in a Muslim family, or
in a Hindu family, we are not writing about that whereas before we'd be too *** scared
to do it. One case in point is Gurpreet Kaur Bhatti, you know. She wrote two plays, Behzti
and Behud. Now Behzti went, hit, went went mainstream news because she wrote about the
Sikh community and people didn't like that, because she just wrote something that were
warts and all. Em, so so do you know what I mean, so the writers are taking risks, and
that's where we are today. We are we are at the stage where, we're telling the stories
that we wanna tell, that the Asian community doesn't want us to tell, but we are telling
them anyway because they need to be told. And I think that's really exciting for us.
It's dangerous, but there again all theatre is dangerous. All exciting theatre is dangerous,
and that's what, where where, that's where we are right now. We're right now producing
theatre that is dangerous to our community, and is and is exposing to our community, but,
we've got to tell it because that's that's, that's our life.
Do you feel the stories and the aesthetics of contemporary South Asian theatre, do you
think the stories and aesthetics reflect accurately the Briish South Asian communities...
Em, well I don't I don't know all of them, you know, because I don't read everything
that's out there, em, you know, the the bulk of them do, and they and they have to because
that's that's where writers dream up their, their stuff is generally based on stuff they
know about, you know. I think any writer will say to you they they they they always get
told, write about what you know. Em, and then, after that, they sprinkle some magic on top
and bit of artistic licence and a bit of drama. SO the bulk of what you hear, of of what you
see or read in Asian theatre writing is true. You know, obviously there's a few dramatic
twists and stuff but that's for dramatic effect and we are allowed to do that because it's
theatre. But yeah, I think I think a lot of what you are reading now, I know a lot of
playtext are coming out are based in truth, for sure.
Thank you for such an honest and enlightening chat. Last question. Would you like to end
this, end this interview by telling us about any particular works of yours that hold the
most importance to you to date. Er works, that I've done or that I've read
or... No, that that you've been in. Some of your
work that holds the most importance for you so far
Em...the, the thing that I'm probably most, there's there's there's two things actually,
that I'm, er, two thea two theatre plays I'm most proud of and that I've probably banged
on about throughout most of this interview, sorry. Er, time to wake up. Nearly finished.
Em, is is Tamasha's Snookered, where I was the main protagonist, which I the first time
I, you know, from an actor's point of view, which is my first time with Tamasha, it was
my first time with the Bush Theatre, and I was the lead. And that for me was marvelous,
So that was one reason. Em but, but the play itself was explosive. It's the kind of play
that you sort of read and you go, I wanna be in that' cause it's phenomenal, and it's
so, it packs a punch. And, you know, how Asian theatre plays, get ready to press to press
the beep thing, how many theatre plays contains ninety-seven, versions of the word ***, and
about thirty-seven versions of the word ***. You know, it was quite it was quite heavily
expleted. Er not that that made it a great play but that it just made it braver, you
know, and and if Mark Ravenhill can do it, and if Jez Butterworth can do it at the Royal
Court, so can Ishy Din from Middleborough, do you know what I mean. Em, so it was, and
it was a good play. And it was a good it was a good showcase for me. And it was good for
me to be with Tamasha, and the Bush. And I used to work at the Bush when I was at drama
school. I was the front of house supervisor and I thought I'd love to be here one day.
And then I was. So that was, you know, come full circle. That was good. Er, and I'm proud
of that 'cause it, and it and it, you know, and everyone whom I've ever met since then
said wasn't Snookered amazing, we love it, what a real breath of fresh air, and you know,
if you if you guys are watching this very boring interview with me, and you've want
to wake up and read something exciting, er, read Snookered because it's a pretty awesome
play. Em and the other highlight for me would be Mixed Up North. For me that was a massive,
what, ah...is it is it a watershed moment? Is that the word? Or turning point moment,
in my career where, I was bumbling along as an actor, and then 2009, which is when the
play came out. I read the script, I auditioned for Max Stafford-Clark, here is an interest,
here is a really good story for you. Er, the audition for Max Stafford-Clark, fo Out Of
Joint, for this play, Mixed Up North, was in Out Of Joint's office. It was in Max's
office which is tiny, really small. Like a box room, right. And for the audition, I did
the entire audition, standing behind Max Stafford-Clark and reading over his shoulder, the script.
So his head's there, he's looking down going, OK, Muzz, I'd like you to read the script
please, if you would, and I'm there, saying it over his shoulder, Crazist audition ever.
He didn't even see my face. He didn't see the emotion that I was doing in my face, and
rou, and you know, how beautiful or ugly I was. Careful, steady. Ehem, er er, and that
was it. And that turned out to be one of the best plays I've done because it's about Burnley,
because it was verbatim, er, because it toured the country. It was banned in Burnley, by
the way, because the Council thought it was too close to the bone and they hated it. And
there's other reasons which I won't go into because it's too political. Em, but they were
the two big career highlights 'cause they're just, for me, they they gave a confidence
in my acting abilities, they told a story that I really wanted to someone to tell, and
to and I wanted to share with people, em, and they were two companies that I respected
throughout my life, you know. Tamasha was a dream come true and Out Of Joint was a dream
come true. And the fact that they saw, some talent in this washed out Asian Northern boy
was amazing. So if I could pinpoint two, or pinpoint any highlight of my career, it would
be Snookered with Tamasha and Mixed Up North with Out Of Joint. And if you are watching
this, Tamasha, and Out Of Joint, thanks for this, because I appreciate it. And even, I
I know I know I'm now cleaning toilets in, in Aldi, that's what I'm doing these days,
but it's fine, you know, you know. When you when you, you know, you know. They were my
career highlights...a few years ago. I'm sure a big name of the...
Thanks a lot Muzz. It's ben wicked talking to you.
Thank you. And sorry for the dodgy humour. I had to rely on it somehow
No problem. See you later. Bye bye.