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Darrell Bock: Ramesh, earlier you talked about four key areas of the world where things are
happening. Why don't we review what those are and then we can take a look at why those
areas are significant.
Ramesh Richard: Right. I was addressing the systemic political socioeconomic differences
of very proximate areas.
For example, North Korea and South Korea: Within the space of 6 to 60 kilometers, you
have two entire systems. Both came out of the war. For example, South Korea was among
the poorest countries of the world coming out of the war, and now it's in the top 15.
And the same people, same dynamics, same entrepreneurialism, same commitment, same language, same culture.
But how sociopolitical systems make a difference.
The other one I visited was in Eastern and Western Germany. And once I read the rubber-band-put-together
Trabants � as you recall, Darrell. You've been there several times. And, of course,
West Germany had this most beautiful late model Mercedes-Benz. Again, one people � just
a sociopolitical system kept them abreast.
Darrell Bock: And I think it's important to appreciate that, because I have spent four
sabbaticals in Germany. I've watched West Germany rebuild almost from scratch East Germany.
But the other thing that people don't appreciate is that East Germany's a bridge and a window
into Eastern Europe and into Asia. And so it's a very strategic part of the world.
Ramesh Richard: Yes. And also Western Germany needed Eastern Germany for sheer population
numbers. It was sitting in a demographic time bomb. You need something like 2.1 babies for
every woman of childbearing age for population to remain stable.
Indonesia, for example, grows 25 times the speed of Western Germany. So Western Germany
actually was doing herself a favor in absorbing Eastern Germany.
The third area that we can talk about is the China-Hong Kong line. I've just been there
in the last couple of weeks. China and Hong Kong, they've had a relationship over the
years, especially now it's classified as a strategic administrative region. Hong Kong
China considers themselves a part of China, and yet, they have to keep themselves distinct
because of their economic systems. Of course, Hong Kong is the world's most expensive property
� real estate property in the world � and you can see two systems having demarcated
the advancement of material economic progress as starkly as it can possibly be.
A fourth area I would say is what may be called the outright area of South Africa over against
the rest of Africa. South Africa is the richest country inside the continent. Again, it was
a system that was oppressive and built on a wrong view of Scripture, where they found
the Canaanites being everybody else except those who dominated the sociopolitical economic
system.
And it's one good reason why we need to say that it's a radical break at the cross, that
there's an entire new people of God that have been put together. And in a concretely tight
continuation theology, you'll start mixing up the people of God with the Israel of God
throwing out the Canaanites. And I actually had an Anglican pastor in Cape Town express
deep appreciation of Dallas Seminary for keeping the peoples of God not just continuous, but
there was enough discontinuity between the Israel of old and the people of God now.
And so that's another socioeconomic demographic reality, except now, the entire Southern African
region, while it is more economically more prosperous than the rest, is seeing the same
heart of man in its corruption and its wickedness taking over. And so we've got to do a two-level
kind of work: Address the health of the church. But the health of the church really impacts
the health of the community. And so if we can address the health of the pastor, which
is basically the health of the church, which is basically the health of the community,
we can make material difference.
Darrell Bock: Now it's interesting, because the one area that you didn't mention that
is another area of major Christian growth and activity, of course, is Latin America
� which is its own story, because if you go there, the thing that's interesting about
traveling in Latin America is with the heavily Catholic presence, talking about spiritual
things in that part of the world is actually very easy to do, because there is a pervasive
religiosity to the culture that has a deep impact. And yet the faith is also growing
in that part of the world.
Ramesh Richard: Yes, unbelievably so. For example, the fastest growing area/region of
the world, parts of Rio de Janeiro, outside the great city of Rio, something like 9,000
pastors exist. And it's just unbelievable, but they don't have training.
Yes, Latin America is a powerful story � and you hit on something very important. Asia,
especially, does not have the same worldview heritage that the Roman Catholic missional
enterprise gave to Latin America. So when we go into Latin America, we don't have as
big a bridge from their worldview to the Gospel, coming to the Lord Jesus especially, because
they have some view of a distant God, a God who's transcendent. They've got a lot of mediation
processes, but it's not as big a jump from a Latin American/Roman Catholic worldview
into the Gospel.
Darrell Bock: So these different areas of the world come with different backgrounds,
different technical language, sociological languages, religious pre-understandings, which
the sharing of the Gospel has to deal with those. So, for example, in Asia, you've got
the background of Hinduism, Buddhism, and some cases Islam, and you also have a lot
of popular religion that's built around family worship � I don't know what other word to
use. Latin America, you've got the Roman Catholic situation.
Africa is completely different. It's more populous and animistic kind of religious experience.
So sharing the Gospel in these parts of the world � even though the message that you're
delivering is the same, the way in which it's being heard and has to be processed is different.
Is that right?
Ramesh Richard: This is very, very important. In all our strategies, especially with evangelism
and church planting and training, the worldview-religion-culture, what are called the human matrix of every
person, every group, significantly affects their reception of the faith. So if I went
into a Hindu worldview and talked about the matter of birth and being born again, their
understanding of being born again is heavily influenced by the baggage they bring in terms
of reincarnation, that you can be born again, and again, and again, and again.
If you go into an Islamic worldview and talk about God sending his one and only Son, they
read it biologically in terms of reproduction, how humans reproduce. So they very easily
slip into God, Mary, and Jesus. And if you go into a Buddhist worldview in their non-theistic,
maybe atheistic view of reading reality, while pursuing principles, you have to keep pressing
them on these matters as to where they get their foundations for their principles if
they don't hold to a foundational reality of God at all.
So in what may be called a +5 to -5 spectrum, you've got to identify how close their human
matrix is to the Gospel matrix that we present.
Darrell Bock: Okay, you need to explain that matrix, because most people may not know what
+ or -5 is.
Ramesh Richard: All right. Let's say 0 is point of conversion. The -4 would be nominal
Christianity. People who have grown up with the Christian faith, they are aware of God,
they're aware the Gospel, they're aware of the cross. The Christian heritage that they
have doesn't make them a Christian. They still have to embrace the salvation message, but
they're nominal Christians.
A -3 are those who may be theist, but not Christian theist. Theists believe in a god,
but they don't hold to the God of the Bible.
Darrell Bock: But this is the way people who do evangelism and mission work talk about
kind of where their audience is, right? This is a spectrum.
Ramesh Richard: It's the basic audience analysis, yeah. A -2 would be people of other religions
who are not theists at all, like the pantheists of the world. And then maybe a -1 are those
who are atheist or agnostic.
Darrell Bock: So the lower the number, the further away you are �
Ramesh Richard: And more of the work need to be done. For example, in your work, Darrell,
you're finding that this -2, -3 are very common categories when America used to be simply
a -4 deal.
Darrell Bock: That's right.
Ramesh Richard: And all of your writing, all of your media presence, you're able to bridge,
moving them from, let's say, a -2 to a -3 � which also means that our success rate
in evangelism and how we measure success needs to be changed. A lot of people like to just
measure the -4 to 0. Everybody's really excited and happy �
Darrell Bock: Did someone get converted.
Ramesh Richard: That's correct. But for you and me to have moved somebody from a -2 with
a little bit of seed sowing, little bit of reorientation, to a -3, that's just as significant,
because he's well on the road towards the embrace of salvation.
On the plus side a +1, let's say, is a new believer � brand new believer. A +2 is somebody
who goes to church regularly. A +3 is a leader in a church. A +4 is a seminary student or
a Bible College student.
Darrell Bock: A +5 is Jesus Christ. No, just kidding.
Ramesh Richard: Well +5 is probably a martyr for the faith. Yeah, or a missionary for the
faith. So we want to take the minus side of it very much into consideration while we're
presenting Christ.
I've suggested elsewhere a strategy when we go into those -3 and beyond. I'd like to suggest
that there are four touch points to the Gospel that you cannot start with, "God loves you
and has a great plan for you," when they have a different view of God, different view of
plan, different view of sin. And those are very good when it comes to nominal Christians.
They understand what God is and who God is in a sense that we understand.
So I ask for first what may be called an apologetic of life. But Christianity is not one idea
over another idea. It's life on life, it's lived out � the transformed life which is
so engaging and attractive and winsome to the unbeliever.
For example, yesterday, I was with some friends from Iran. In addition to all the visions
and the dreams that people are seeing in the most unusual ways � this man made a case
that a supernaturally transformed life inside of family is the most powerful testimony.
To the family, a sustained witness for Christ, and they are drawn to the faith, the changed
life. So the apologetic of life.
And so I would ask every Christian, especially as they live with their neighbors from other
backgrounds. And they're all over, as 30-some million of America now is foreign-born, and
they come from areas where the Christian faith is not the majority faith. But they've come
here with entrepreneurial zeal, some degree of seeking. Some of them get more fanatical
and reinforced in their old faith. Since they are here, they've been alerted and warned
in their countries, "Watch out for these Christians who will convert you."
But basic aspects of hospitality and helps, celebration of seasons, the times when they're
in need � from helping them with driver's licenses to having them inside your home saying
a prayer of blessing over a meal. Those are all brand new to them. So that really reflects
what the Lord Jesus says: "Let you light so shine before human beings so that they, observing
you, will glorify your Father in heaven, your good works."
Peter makes the same case: "Keep your behavior excellent among the nonbelievers, so that
on account of your behavior, they'll glorify God on the day of visitation." It's sort of
a subversive strategy, but just as important.
Darrell Bock: So the point that you're making is that what is applying to some degree and
what's going on around the world, is also kind of coming to our own doorstep in a very
real way, and having some awareness of what the global options are is important.
Ramesh Richard: Yes. And historically for 200 years � this is the 200th year or so
right after America sent the first missionary overseas. Now, all the people that we sent
missionaries to are now our neighbors. And our entire country is built on a immigration
platform. So let's harness it and see it as an opportunity for the harvest.
Darrell Bock: So global engagement then, to think about it this way, isn't just a matter
of thinking about what's going on elsewhere in the world, but it's also thinking about
how the world has come to us.
Ramesh Richard: That is correct. And the majority minorities, and the minority majorities, the
shifts there � it takes a heart that needs to be wider, because the deep level of Christ
inside your life wanting to reach out to them, so that we're not stereotyping and categorizing
people from all over the world as belonging to one kind of philosophy of life.
So that's the first, the apologetics of life. Life on life is the most powerful dynamic,
basic Christian love. Love is uniquely Christian, because we have somebody who loved us, and
we can base this on a cross that demonstrates unconditional love.
The second apologetic tactic, or method, is what I'm going to call the �apologetic of
word.�
A lot of people directly go into conflict and contesting others� views of themselves,
rather than having established the groundwork or the right to be heard. But no life is perfect
enough, no life is good enough to, in itself, carry the Gospel, so there has to be a word
component.
Looking for opportunities in order to sow a seed here, a prayer there, a wish for them,
and really, really wanting their good, their ultimate good, even though they don't particularly
see their felt need right now. And that's, you know, a good ol' basic proclamation of
the Gospel. So the apologetic of word.
The next level � not only apologetic of life and the apologetic of word � I'm going
to call the "apologetic of reason".
Too may apologists get to reason first. There's an old Indian proverb which goes, "You don't
cut off a man's nose and give him a rose to smell." We try to do that with the Lord Jesus
all the time. Here is this amazing gift of eternal life that we can give to people, and
then we destroy them in the process of contest and debate, when all you're doing is first
establishing the groundwork of relationship, then presenting gently � and straightforwardly,
but gently � the claims of the Gospel; and then, of course, a reason for the hope that
is in you.
I think there's good pattern and precept inside the book of Acts to follow these three. You
are the expert in the book of Acts, so you might want to weigh in on this. But the apologetic
of reason. The number of times it says Paul reasoned, Paul persuaded, Paul even argued
with his audiences. And the classic difference is, Peter and Paul approaching both the Jews
and the Gentiles at different starting points and worldview premises to present the Gospel.
At this point, after building life, word, and reason, I actually invite them to consider
Christ. I did this last Saturday in New York with about 400 at a very fine event. That's
a point of deep fear and anxiety when you're asking to trust Christ, and yet, when you
lay out an invitation, people trust Christ.
And so I would like to add a fourth layer to this, the apologetic method, and call it
the "apologetic of meaning".
It's just old-fashioned discipleship. It's like finding a new pair of glasses. Your prescription
has changed, you go to the optician, he gives you a new pair of glasses; it takes you a
little while for you to get used to the new pair of glasses, because you have been so
engrained into your former habits and practices. And then good discipleship grows them into
vital vibrant servants of Christ.
Darrell Bock: Okay. Well you've talked about mission. Let's talk a little bit about the
nature of some of the issues that we see globally. And I think the way I want to get at this
is to say � and maybe it's a sociological question of sorts � what is different about
sharing the Gospel in Asia, in Latin America, in Europe, and in Africa? In other words,
what about the way people live and about those cultures?
And I realize it's a broad question. For example, I'll illustrate it. In Latin America, I, for
years, taught a course with Danny Carroll who teaches Old Testament at Denver.
Ramesh Richard: A classmate of all of us.
Darrell Bock: That's right. And who had spent time in Guatemala teaching at SETECA. And
we used to take our students down and teach a course on hermeneutics and theology down
there. And the assignment for the North American students was to say, "If you lived in this
culture, what issues would you be sensitive to that you tend not to be as sensitive to
in North America because you're living here?"
And it was kind of an eye-opening question, because it made them think about how they
expressed their theology, what imagery do they use, that kind of thing. And, of course,
the thing that stood out was the poverty that is so transparent in much of the culture required
that certain passages that they tend, perhaps, to just brush by when they're teaching here
in North America and the United States all of a sudden, become important texts.
I remember one glaring example of a different kind in which there was text where the John
the Baptist addresses soldiers, and basically he tells them, you know, not to abuse people
and to be content with their wage. Well, in the North American context, in most North
American contexts, we don't have to worry about the military abusing their authority.
We don't hear too much about that. But in the context of Latin America, it can be a
given. And so the exhortation resonates in Latin America in a way that oftentimes North
Americans don't even think about.
So that's the kind of question I'm asking. What are the outstanding cultural features
in different parts of the world that someone pays attention to that they may not be as
sensitive to as North Americans?
Ramesh Richard: Correct. I really think there are two issues. One, you've already touched
on, Darrell. One is the issue the poverty, and also the causes of poverty. For example,
corruption and wickedness. On just our border between the US and Mexico where, you know,
Juarez City has had over 10,000 people killed because of drug trafficking and so on. In
what way are we going to present the comfort of Christ and the protection of Christ to
them?
I have friends there who say, "God has called me to live here. And even though we see 100
bodies every day on the way from here to church, we are going to stay here, because God has
called us to stay here."
So poverty and the causes for poverty. Not only the passive causes, but the ongoing continuous
cause. It's not only historical causes, but continuing causes. They�re just drastic,
they are visceral. You've got to address them.
The second area is a plurality of religious options � just sociological pluralism. And,
historically, evangelicals have been good at addressing the uniqueness of Christ, but
not the poverty issues. And those were not evangelicals or other appellations � they
are very good at addressing systemic poverty issues, but not the uniqueness of Christ issues.
Somewhere, there needs to be a comprehensive theology of society, theology of social action,
without confusing it with evangelism and the Gospel, because while the content of the Gospel
is that Lord Jesus is the only Savior of the world, the scope of the Gospel affects the
existence of the Church in a particular locality, which takes into account issues like crime
and justice issues and other depravation.
Our daughter, for example, now lives in Malawi, and Malawi, till recently, was the highest
misery index in the world. She works at a school which spends a lot of money on maintaining
the lawns with water. But just outside the school, there is no water; there's no water
to drink. And what kind of witness is that when there's no water or fuel outside, but
because this particular school is well-endowed, it can have water � just, you know, water
their lawns when people don't have no water to drink or take a shower.
If you came with me to Kolkata � Kolkata, it used to be called Calcutta before. Nobody
knows the population of Kolkata. It could be 28 million or it could be 16 million, because
in the daytime it swells and in the nighttime it goes down. There are more people sleeping
on the sidewalks of Kolkata than live in Ottawa, the capital city of Canada.
Where is the touch of the Gospel there? In the Proclamation, we've got to keep the Gospel
distinct that the Lord Jesus is the only way in order to possess and secure eternal life,
not just secure, but possess eternal life. But the Church, which lives in this context,
has to have an impact on both the plurality of religions around it, as well as the economic
deprivation around it.
Darrell Bock: You know, it's interesting, because I look at a curriculum in western
seminaries and I don't see a class, say, on poorology. We might see an elective on poverty,
but we don't see a focused study on the hundred of passages really in Scripture that address
the issue of the poor, God's concern for the poor, issues of justice, that kind of thing.
Someone who I used to work with who did inner0city ministry said to me, "You know, there are
400 such passages in the Bible." I mean you literally could give a year's worth of study
to those kinds of texts.
And the idea of dealing with the diversity of options is something � we have talked
about this in other podcasts � that one of the ways in which the world has changed
significantly in our time versus the time of the Bible is that in the time of the Bible,
everyone, or almost everyone believed in some form of the spirit world, some form of transcendence.
That was a given in the ancient world. I tell people, "Don't think of Rome as being a secular
society, they had 150 religious holidays every year that people were to participate in."
But our world's different in that we � at least certain parts of the world are different,
it depends on where you are � in that there are many pockets of our world, particularly
the western world, where the idea of a transcendent being and a transcendent reality doesn't exist
for people. And so the moment you present the Bible, where transcendence is the driving
force of the entire story, you've got a problem. You're back to your scale of the minuses.
Ramesh Richard: That is correct.
Darrell Bock: And so it makes doing evangelism harder. So in one sense, the world has become
� if I can say it � more diverse today than it was in the first century, because
at least if I address spiritual realities in the first century, almost everyone would
at least go there.
Ramesh Richard: Yes. And I think the third phrase, "I am the way, the truth, and the
life." We are heavier on the truth, and perhaps, more so on the way than Jesus being the life.
And when you present "the life," no one comes to the Father � for the way, the truth,
and the life, except through the Lord Jesus.
Life component in every situation is different. And places of the world, which I'm going to
call "overall" societies or "pre-literary" societies rather than just voodoo animalistic,
they hold on to the fact that Jesus is very life to them.
Darrell Bock: Interesting. Well, that's obviously a significant area of thinking about global
engagement. And, again, all this reality of what's going on around the world is coming
towards us in a very real way, because our own demographics are changing.
Ramesh Richard: We cannot excuse ourselves from what's happening in the rest of the world.
It's visually close, not only in television screens, but next door in our grocery stores,
in our markets, in our stadiums. They are right next to us. And I really think in this
restructuring of the world, God is giving America an incredible new challenge in touching
people from around the world who all have connections and contacts with the rest of
the world. They go to their homes frequently. They're calling them on Skype every day. And
if some change happens as a result of the Gospel, it is a powerful witness for the rest
of the world.
Darrell Bock: Well, that's helpful, Ramesh. What other advice would you give us in terms
of thinking about engagement in global terms?
Ramesh Richard: Yes. I think in the middle of all the crises the world faces presently,
it is possible to become afraid and anxious, and the proverbial ostrich syndrome becomes
ours.
Darrell Bock: So withdrawing and just getting out of everything.
Ramesh Richard: Yes, because it allows us to be a bit more comfortable, even in our
ignorance. I don't think that's what the Christians� mission or calling is. When he said, "Go,"
he really meant go. Sometimes we downplay the �go� because we know the imperatives
of making disciples. But there is a going that's implicit there.
And that going does not need to be far anymore. It's just next door. It is literally next
door. In my city where I live in a suburb of Dallas, 106 languages are spoken in the
school district. 106 languages. I don't have to go to 106 countries anymore. These guys
are right next to me, and they're looking for everything from help in filling out forms
for FAFSA to driver's license to help and care when their loved ones come to the United
States for a little while. So in a basic hospitality and helps platform, don't stay there, but
start there and continue with the Gospel.
Darrell Bock: You know, there are several terrific ministries I know working in university
campuses dealing with people who come to the United States from overseas trying to connect
them to American hosts who will help them transition into their university life, get
acclimated to American culture, be taken care of, and have people who they can know and
the culture can help them negotiate that. And having done that myself, you know, having
gone to Germany and having to deal with a different language and different set of rules
for how people live, et cetera, I know how helpful that can be.
Ramesh Richard: Yes, and that's sort of the middle section. We also have the very wealthy
coming to the US, and I mean they're heads of the corporation. I've got people coming
and saying, you know, "I have a Brazilian boss. I have a Chinese businessman who owns
my company, and they're investing from all over the world." So not just at the college
level, but the highest socioeconomic strata.
And then the poorest levels who are coming � the Lost Boys of Sudan, for example, or
Ethiopia because of refugee status. I mean this is the genius of the country. I mean
there are many, many aspects of this land that's just absolutely incredible, from entrepreneurial
zeal to a philanthropic tradition, but our immigrant platforms. And God has brought something
like 12 percent of the country from all over the world, foreign born, right here.
Darrell Bock: Well, actually, if you go back far enough, almost all of us, except for the
American Indians are �
Ramesh Richard: I'm glad you clarified it.
Darrell Bock: So there ought to be some sensitivity to the fact that one level or another, many
of us are immigrants if we go back four generations. I know that's true in my family.
Ramesh Richard: And we're just extending what others have extended to us. Global engagement,
cultural engagement � I cannot think of a greater application of the Gospel right
now that's needed. And I'm grateful for both your work, Darrell, and the Seminary's vision
for you, and I'm grateful for the vision for what they've done in my own life. And I think
Dallas Seminary is positioned at a very critical moment theologically in higher education,
but also in terms of reaching out to the world.
Darrell Bock: Well, it's our hope that not only people who are associated with the Seminary,
but people who identify with the call of being a Christian in general, in interacting, and
thinking about some of the issues that we raise in the podcast will come to have a deeper
appreciation for what mission means in the Church, what God is calling them to do and
to be. And in that process, maybe reach out with a little more sensitivity to those around
them who are different; and in the process, perhaps be that witness and that opportunity
and that one or, perhaps, part of a larger story of one among many whom God uses to draw
people to himself.
And when we think about global engagement, engaging on a global scale, moving outside
our own world � in some cases, our own ethnicity � is an important step in being able to
show the very diversity that God created in the creation when he made many nations. So
our hope and prayer is that we will be Christians who reflect that diversity in the healthy
sense of the term, in the way God has created it. So thank you, Ramesh, for being with us.
Ramesh Richard: Thank you, Darrell. What a great joy. If anytime I can assist you and
Seminary in any which way, I'm happy to serve.
Darrell Bock: Thanks, Ramesh.