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>> female announcer: This is a
production of WKNO, Memphis.
Production funding for "Behind
the Headlines" is made possible
in part by..
A conversation with members of
the unified school board about
the decision to pursue separate
schools and the impact of a
major budget deficit tonight on
"Behind the Headlines."
[instrumental music]
♪♪♪
>> Barnes: I'm Eric Barnes,
publisher of The Memphis Daily
News.
Thanks for joining us.
We're joined tonight first by
Bill Dries, reporter with The
Daily News.
Tomeka Hart from the unified
school board.
Thank you for being here.
>> Hart: Thank you.
>> Barnes: Billy Orgel, chairman
of the unified school board.
David Reaves, also from the
unified school board.
We brought you guys on.
There's a lot to talk about the
progress on the budget and we'll
get to those issues.
But on Thursday, bills were
filed up in Nashville and the
state legislature that would
allow the creation of special
school districts, suburban
school districts, whatever
technical term we want to use.
And so, I want to get your
thoughts on that and how the
possibility now, yet again.
I'll start with you, Billy, as
chairman of the schools and the
municipal schools which at this
moment are under your umbrella-
may be able to separate off in a
year or so.
How does that change what you're
doing?
>> Orgel: Eric, I think we can
control what we can control here
in the community.
So the things we can control is
we can vote as we, the city of
Memphis, did to give up the
special school district status
or give up the charter.
We had earlier this year or late
last year, the municipalities
voted to have their own school
districts.
It was disallowed by the judge.
And what happens in Nashville,
of course, we can weigh in on.
We've got elected
representatives in this
community.
But ultimately, they're going to
make the decision and we're
going to have to abide by it.
>> Barnes: Is it a better school
system if they stay in?
>> Orgel: I don't know that you
could say it's better or worse.
The truth is if you turn the
clock back and good people sat
down and negotiated in good
faith, we probably wouldn't be
sitting on this program.
We'd be talking about another
issue facing the community.
And we'd still be sitting with
the Memphis City school system
and a Shelby County school
system.
>> Barnes: Tomeka, let me bring
you in.
You're from the-a key member of
the city school system.
I'm going to mess some of these
things up.
But the city school system-You
were a key vote in forgetting-
letting go of the charter and
triggering this merger.
What is your take on this
likelihood now or this
possibility now that the suburbs
can finally get what seems to be
their wish which is to break
off?
>> Hart: So, I think that first,
many people have misunderstood.
I will speak for me.
My issue really wasn't we just
needed to be one big school
system.
The issue was we needed an
intact county school system to
protect funding for county wide
funding of education, including
those children who are in
Memphis City Schools.
So, you know, I happen to
believe that we will be a better
community if it was one school
system but, you know, I think
that people in communities can
decide for themselves what they
want.
And so, you don't hear my
fighting against municipal
school districts.
You don't hear me saying they
shouldn't this.
I mean, I think that, um, what
the judge said was based on the
law that was written in 2011
that couldn't happen.
The judge didn't say you can't
have them.
He's saying you need to create a
better law.
And so, I do think that the law
that was created was hastily
done and that's what we have-the
issue.
You know, that's why it couldn't
be created now.
But I mean, I think that you
can't tell a community what they
can and can't do.
>> Barnes: Is it-I mean, there's
still a lot to be determined
here.
So, we're kind of reading tea
leaves in terms of how this
could take shape with the
suburbs breaking off.
But are you comfortable?
Back to your point of you would
prefer that it was a county-wide
system.
It doesn't need to be but the
whole trigger of getting-I don't
know how to say it but-getting
rid of the city school system
was about funding.
Are you comfortable that the
funding will be there if these
municipals schools..?
>> Hart: And the reason why is
because now, there is still a
county school system.
I mean, if you look at
Tennessee, you know, in some
areas where there's no county
school system, there's no
county-wide education tax.
And so, for us, it was-There
needs to be a county school
system intact.
And if Memphis City Schools had
stayed as a special district and
then what was then the county
system had become a special
district, there technically is
no county system.
And there could be all kinds of
things that would happen.
>> Barnes: So, even though the
county system could end up being
essentially the schools that the
city had, the funding mix is
different in a positive
direction from your point of
view.
>> Hart: Right,
constitutionally, there's still
a county school system.
>> Barnes: Alright, let me-
David, thank you for being here.
We'll get you in one this.
You represent Bartlett on the
unified school board but you
live in Bartlett.
That's one of the areas that
wants to break away.
We kind of joked before the show
that if that happens, you sort
of get carved out of this school
board you're now on.
What is your take on it?
Do you think that it's a
positive move for the areas like
Bartlett to be able to break off
of this county-wide school
system that you're a member of?
>> Reaves: Well, I think it's a
positive move, actually,
probably for the entire county
because most of these cities
have decided that they want a
smaller education system closer
to the people.
And if they don't, then they
will take whatever other matters
in hands to do that.
And that's either to move out of
the county or do something else-
go to private school.
And I think that on the whole
that that would hurt our overall
economic and funding picture for
the entire Shelby County School
district.
So, I think it's really
important that this issue is
addressed.
I think if these municipalities
want to do that, then I think
they should be given the ability
to do it.
>> Barnes: How is being on the
board?
How long have you been on the
unified school board?
>> Reaves: Well, I've been on
just as long as everyone else
has for probably about a year.
But I've been on the board
itself for going on three years
now.
>> Barnes: Okay, and how?
The last of the planning, all
the transition planning, the
looking at budgets-and we'll get
in to some of those details.
How has that influenced your
views of this?
I mean, do you think it's even
more important that Bartlett and
other municipalities break away
or do you actually see how -
Wow, you know, for all the
difficulty, we could make this
work if we're forced to?
>> Reaves: Well, I think that
one of the issues we have with
funding is that the old Shelby
County school district had a
very rich staffing model-
staffing formula which amounts
to about 80 million extra
dollars a year.
And what that is doing is that
basically is somewhat inflated
the unified school districts new
budget number to 145 million.
If the municipal districts were
allowed to break away and most
of those schools and their
staffing formulas are within
those schools.
So, that could significantly
reduce the funding gap,
particularly in the Shelby
County school board.
>> Barnes: Okay, Bill?
>> Dries: We have as of the vote
that you all took last week or
this week, we have a $145
million extra amount of funding
that the board has voted for at
this point.
I'd like to get your view, each
of you, because I think you all
have at least slightly different
views.
Are you going to get that extra
funding from the Shelby County
Commission?
We'll start with Tomeka.
>> Hart: Well, no.
And so the point was the request
was we need to take to begin the
conversation.
And I'm a lawyer.
I'm of the point when you start
the conversation, you start it
with what you need.
So, how do you start talking
cuts if you're not even talking
about what you need?
And so, no, we're not going to
get 145 million but that was not
the point.
Now, if this was taking our
final budget to the Shelby
County Commission for approval,
then we would have had a
different conversation.
But that was not the
conversation.
The conversation is what do we
take now for this retreat.
So, most of us agree.
Take what you need and then you
get from them what you know they
realistically can do.
And then, we come back and start
talking about what we cut.
>> Reaves: I agree with Tomeka.
You know, I don't believe were
going to get $145 million.
And I don't believe $145 million
is the number.
From my view point, the reason
for supporting that number was
to me, it reflected the true
cost of what it would cost to
level up the entire district to
Shelby County's current
standards.
>> Barnes: And that gets back to
what you call the rich number of
faculty, the student-teacher
ratios that the county schools-
the traditional county schools-
have had?
>> Reaves: Yeah, exactly right.
Now, as I've been a
conservative, I absolutely--$145
million tax increase.
That's against my principle but
I just wanted for people to
understand that that's what the
cost of this merger is to the
district.
And we need to look and see
what's the best way to address
that.
>> Dries: Billy?
>> Orgel: I'm not a lawyer.
I'm a realist.
And those two things are
naturally opposite.
But what I was going to say is
that, uh, we've got a short
timeline to get this done.
And I said it the other night is
let's be realistic.
We've got a lot of people that
have worked very hard.
Our staff-They're under a lot of
pressure.
They've already said themselves
they're going to have a 26
percent reduction at least in
salary.
I don't know how that equates to
people.
And so, we're pushing people out
of their jobs and we're letting
them write how they're going to
be out of their jobs.
They're working overtime.
They're working hard.
They've outlined it.
The TPC spent 10 months
outlining it before this.
Now, we've spent the last seven
months looking over it and it's
time to be realistic.
And the county commission asked
to do it early.
We did do it early and I felt
like we should have given them a
more realistic number because
politically, there's no way that
they're going to have the votes
to ever raise it more than a
certain amount.
And you can just debate-discuss
that.
And we talked earlier.
We're going to have a property
appraisal decrease in this
county.
And there's going to have to be
a tax increase just to maintain
level service at the 402.
So, it's going to have to go up
some just to get back to that
point with the property.
>> Dries: So, if, as your
premise is, there is a set
number that is probably already
out there in terms of what the
extra funding will be, how does
the school board get to a point
where it eases the very real
concerns that popped up about
the staffing levels and the
staffing formula which, I think,
county school parents and city
school parents feel it a real
classroom issue in terms of
funding?
>> Orgel: You got, uh-It wasn't
like we walked in to the meeting
last-was it Tuesday?
That we walked in the meeting
last Tuesday and it was like a
big surprise.
"Oh my god-These are the
numbers!"
I mean, we all had the numbers.
And a lot of us individually
that could, had the time to do
it.
And that was staff.
We had a budget retreat.
I mean, we've gone over these
numbers.
We all knew this was coming.
I mean, there was an RFP, which
wasn't delivered.
The numbers-There was no savings
delivered last week on that but
there was an RP on custodial to
outsource it's savings.
They've gone through all the
numbers.
We all knew what the numbers
were and where the options were
going to be.
I don't think that everybody
fully understood what the county
commission can do or politically
could do to fund education fully
in this community.
>> Barnes: There's so many parts
to this but let's stay with the
student-teacher ratios right
now.
You, Tomeka, are going back to
the city school system.
You know, you hear about a
better or a lower student to
teacher ratio in the county
schools and the costs to bring
that kind of ratio up to in the
city schools.
I mean, that's kind of what you
want-right?
Or is it not?
>> Hart: Well, we've always
wanted.
So, it's not all of a sudden,
the merger has made Memphis City
Schools like this.
I mean, that's just ridiculous.
Like we're just sitting back.
You know, we don't know what
we're doing.
We're just waiting to see what
the county schools have done.
The Memphis City Schools ratio
is higher because we've been
facing cuts for the last six
years.
We have been cutting the budget.
So it's not like we decided this
is the model that we should
have.
It is we have not gotten county
funds increased since 2007-2008.
So, yes. We're where we are
because we've had to cut.
And so, I think it's, you know,
this community has to decide
what kind of school system.
And it's also slightly
disingenuous to just say all of
this is because of the merger.
Both districts were facing
strict cuts.
Shelby County has dipped into
it's savings a whole lot and
even without the merger, it was
going to have to go ask for more
money because it couldn't fund
even what it needed without
additional funds.
So, it's not that all of this is
merger-related.
But Memphis City Schools have
always wanted a better ratio.
But you can only get what you
can get funds for.
>> Reaves: So, there's another
issue kind of on the table on
top of this and this is the
urban education delivery model.
And part of the reason why the
expense and Memphis City Schools
is so great is just because we
have so many schools and so many
are underutilized.
And over the years, we've not
been able to get to the point to
where we have a more-larger
schools full of more children
and more educational programs.
And so that is an expensive
model that is not sustainable,
as well, and something I think
that we have to look at over the
next several years.
>> Barnes: But what is your take
on that?
Because that gets back to the
TPC recommendations.
And things have been talked
about for years.
And the city school system-the
old city school system talked
about.
But, you know, I think the TPC
recommended 20 schools from the
city be closed.
What is your take on that?
>> Orgel: I think that was no
surprise.
I mean, to me I can tell you
that there's a list that they've
worked on for years.
And there's been a slow
attrition of schools and school
closures in Memphis City Schools
over the last five years.
>> Barnes: Would you like to see
it go faster?
>> Orgel: This is what I really
like to see.
Instead of just putting a number
on it and a dollar figure and
then working your way towards
it, I'd like to look at the
communities where the schools
are in, where they're located;
figure out if we-how the feeder
pattern looks.
If the elementary schools are
not feeding the middle and the
high schools, we need to put-
And the county has a good model
on this because the populations
spread out and you had a central
high school.
If we've got seven, eight high
schools in Southeast and
Southwest Shelby County and
they're underutilized, let's
find an opportunity.
And it might cost the community
money but let's put a facility
centrally located that can be a
larger high school that, as
David said, is more efficient.
And let's offer the AP courses.
Let's offer the other extra-
curricular activities that
schools throughout the county-
White Station, Whitehaven,
Ridgeway, Southwind, Arlington,
Collierville-are offering.
Let's not make our children
suffer in a two, three, four-
hundred person-we'll use high
school in this case where they
don't have the activities that
they need.
>> Barnes: Because, you now,
when I hear that, I'm sure
there's people out here who
listen and say, "Well, that
sounds great but we just talked
about there's not the $140
million to do.."
>> Orgel: Capital money is
different.
>> Barnes: Okay, so, both can be
done.
>> Orgel: So, I think both can
be done.
And it's actually probably more
efficient and better for our
children in the long run than to
do it the way that we're doing
it.
And it needs to be community-
wide.
Everybody needs to study it.
And it needs to be thoughtful.
it doesn't need to be us sitting
in a board meeting and striking
a pen and scratching through
this one and playing games with
people's lives.
>> Barnes: Your thoughts?
Your nodding here, Tomeka.
On the school closure question
and the shifts in the
population.
>> Hart: So again, you know, I
think people act like the TPC,
in all due respect, the TPC and
the merger all of a sudden
revealed all of these issues.
We've been talking about we have
a list of 50 schools in Memphis
City Schools that need closure.
In what community do you just
close 50 schools and then you
don't look at the other aspects
of how that's going to harm a
community.
So, we have yet to do any kind
of comprehensive planning
community wide.
And it's not true that there are
no schools in the county that
are under utilized.
So, this is a county-wide issue.
And that's where there is 50
school systems or two school
systems or one school system.
As a county, we should say this
is what the delivery of
education should look like if
we're saying this is the best
model, right.
And so I think I agree
completely with what he just
said.
But that's not what we're doing.
So, just to say close 21
schools-Well, how does that fit
in to the bigger plan of the
community?
What really should it look like
and I really do think we need to
completely redefine these
communities.
>> Barnes: I'm cutting off Bill
here but I'm going to do one
more question here which is-
So, we talk about these things
and we all have a general
agreement about these things in
principal.
But is it maddening to you as
board members that in fact, what
you spend so much of your time
doing is dealing with the
unknowns caused by the court
case, the ongoing court case.
Now, the bills being introduced.
I mean, do you wish you just
knew what your landscape would
be?
Back to how you started, Billy.
We deal with what we're, you
know, with the hand we're dealt
but you still don't know what
that hand is because there's so
much uncertainty.
Because I remember Doctor Cash
talking about closing schools
right before the merger and
everybody was getting fired up
and everybody was talking about
it.
But it was beginning that
dialogue you're talking about.
And now it's been sidelined for
two plus years.
>> Hart: Well, he wasn't talking
about-
I mean, the number was 50 that
meet the criteria that we
establish for school closures.
What we were planning to do was
come back, look at those 50 and
then kind of talk about really
what Billy was describing.
Let's look at these communities.
How can we reorganize?
What can we designate?
>> Barnes: But what's it take to
get there to start that
conversation?
You have to get all this other
stuff out the way.
>> Orgel: No, I think we made a
step.
I said that a meeting ago that-
and I think I've asked you and
Mr. Woods because and it's not
because they were newly elected
board members and I know they're
going to be there.
So, it's easier to ask two board
members and I know they're going
to be there at least past August
to do this.
But to start bringing the
community together to make-to
have this discussion and to
plan.
And I think,--what was?
We had this before-Needs
assessment.
Yeah, we had that before and we
need to get back to that model
and we need to work with the
mayors of everywhere that might
have underutilized facilities
and it needs to be a community-
wide discussion with the county
mayor and the municipal mayors
and the school board.
>> Barnes: Bill?
>> Orgel: And staff.
>> Dries: Um, is there any
thought that as we talk about
leveling up, as we talk about a
plan for schools, that this
needs to be phased in over three
to five years as opposed to
trying to do this all at once.
>> Reaves: Absolutely and, um, I
wasn't a big fan of bringing a
big number to the board and
saying, "We've got to have all
of this year."
What I wanted to see was a three
to five year phased in approach
where we did bits and pieces.
We did the things that were
required up front, leveling up
to make sure that we took care
of any inequities and then over
time, bringing in the rest of
those.
And if we had to have more
funding over the course of the
next two years, we could
reassess that.
We may or may not need it.
But from my viewpoint, if you're
looking at the staffing model
and you asked, is it going to be
logical?
Are we going to get 145 million?
We are not going to get $145
million and there are going to
be people who are going to lose
their jobs on both sides-both in
the classroom probably and
probably potentially even within
our support services.
So, I think that's something
that we're-a realistic view that
Billy even spoke to earlier that
we're going to have to come to
on both sides and say, "You know
what, we're going to have to
close this gap this year."
>> Barnes: But to some extent, I
mean, that's proponents of
consolidation, be it on the
city-county government level or
education level.
They've pointed to that.
I mean, you know, airlines,
private sector-they point to
consolidation that is savings.
And no one individually likes
that specific person to lose
their job.
But if there's duplicate effort,
that's what ahs to happen.
Are the cuts you're talking
about a lack of funding or are
they unnecessary in positive
step because there's duplicate
services, duplicate people?
>> Reaves: I believe in the
services side of it, I believe
there could be some positive.
I do not think it's positive in
the school-In the classroom, in
the school period.
There may be things not going on
in the classroom.
You have councilors who are
going to be cut in this
particular.
You're going to have nurses.
You're going to have assistant
principals.
And in the county, there has
been a struggle just to maintain
the level of service with what
they have today and it's the
richer staffing model.
So, I think that yes, we have a
funding problem, as well, that
we need to get a handle on over
time because educations getting
more expensive.
And we're having to invest more
money, particularly since we
have kids who are coming who are
needier and who need more
services.
>> Dries: So, on August 5th when
my child goes to what had been
their city school or their
county school, is it still going
to be pretty much like it was in
the current school year that
we're in?
>> Hart: I say pretty much is
the answer.
So, even with the 65 number, the
numbers that the staff came back
with whether is some staffing
changes.
For teachers, it maybe one or
two.
So you may have had a ratio of
25 and now you're going to 26,
right?
Now, as a former teacher, that's
just-One additional student can
be, you know, make it very
challenging.
But I've also taught a class
with 35 kids in it.
And so, we don't want anybody
with that number.
But it's not as if in either
system, the ratios going from 25
to 33-right?
So, it's about one or two
children.
>> Barnes: David, your take, I
mean, because difference in
forms lately.
A little more suburban focus.
Parents getting really upset
talking about drastic changes in
the classroom.
They promised us that it
wouldn't change but it's going
to change.
Is it your sense that the
classroom by and large, the
schools will be similar to the
start of 2012 in 2013.
>> Reaves: I don't think you're
going to see drastic changes.
I think I had a meeting with
some principals because I went
right to the source.
How would these cuts impact your
schools?
I need to know.
And the cuts specifically that
they talked about really
hammered them *** all of the
professional development, all of
the standards that the district
is trying to enforce, all the
testing.
When you start cutting assistant
principals out of those roles,
then it puts a lot heavier
burden back on the teachers.
When you start cutting education
assistance out, when they can't
take kids to the bathroom or a
kid has a problem, then that
cuts time out of the teachers
teaching classrooms.
So, there will be some amount of
impact to some schools.
And I've noticed, particularly
in these formulas that the
schools that I talked to, the
middle schools were hit the
hardest and the neediest ones.
And so, that is a concern for
me.
>> Barnes: Let me ask you a
question and I'll put you on the
spot as, you know, representing
all suburban voters and
residents which isn't fair but
I'll do it anyway.
Um, you talk about the richer
model and the needs and the
kids.
And the urban areas have greater
needs.
It's expensive.
So, let's say that this plays
out and that the suburban
schools like Bartlett where you
live are separated back out.
But you as a county resident are
going to be funding the city
schools at a level probably you
weren't in the past.
Are you comfortable with that?
>> Reaves: I'm absolutely
comfortable with that because
the reality is, is that all the
school systems have to be great,
even the new Shelby County
school district.
Even though I live in Bartlett,
my kids would go to the Bartlett
city school system.
if that happens, it is important
for the economic development.
It's important for the social
development of this community
that that school district be
just as great.
So, I have no problem funding
that.
>> Dries: Mister Chairman, we
began by talking.
Billy, we began by talking-
>> Orgel: That's what my wife
calls me.
>> Dries: We began by talking
about negotiations.
Should the county-wide school
board, even though it's not a
part of the court case, have
been involved in the private
settlement talks between the
county commission and the
suburban leaders?
>> Orgel: I mean, I guess it's
like you selling your house and
the person was going to buy it
and some other party negotiated
over it not asking you any
questions about it.
So, I mean, I felt like in one
part of the case, I understood
that.
But if you look through it, they
were talking.
And I read it post in the paper.
And your paper, too.
And I read it-what they were
agreeing to.
Well, we were going to have to
agree to it.
So, you can't just lay it in
front of us and say, "Okay,
we've spent three months
negotiating.
"You guys go agree to this so we
can settle the court case that
you're really not a part of but
you're the beneficiary of
whatever the decisions going to
be."
So, I think we should have been
but I understand why we weren't
and I maintain and Tomeka can
say this, too, because she was
part of it.
Go back to the beginning three
years ago when the funding issue
came up.
The city of Memphis was
presented with giving up their
charter.
I felt like that we need more
leadership in this community
that could have sat down, worked
this out.
And it was a funding issue.
It's nothing more than that in
my opinion.
And we would not be sitting at
this spot today.
>> Hart: And we spend a long
time working on it.
We spent eight months trying to
get single source funding.
We have spent a lot of time
trying to get and it just didn't
happen.
That's just the bottom line.
And so, this was people felt,
"Oh, I don't have any other
choice," because we can't get
any agreement on anything.
But I also say that this board,
this unified board passed up an
opportunity to get involved
because we had discussed briefly
about trying to join in to be
part of it.
And people said, "Oh, I don't
think we should do that.
"We should just let them see
what's going to happen."
And so, we're suffering the
consequences of that decision-
this board deciding not to be
part of it.
>> Barnes: Your take on that?
I mean, how could things have
been done differently over the
last three years?
>> Reaves: Over the last three
years? Wow!
>> Barnes: With this whole
issue.
>> Reaves: I just think that we
all should have come to the
table and I think we could have
very easily allowed these other
districts to happen.
And we could have definitely
agreed on the funding issue.
I think there are the right
people at the table now to make
it happen.
Before, I think maybe we didn't
have all the right players to do
it.
But I think we do now.
And I think we have people who
are willing to work together on
both sides.
>> Hart: Please let me just
clarify here.
I'm saying the merger would not
have happened if we could have
gotten special school district
off the table, if could have did
the eight months of single
source funding that we were
trying to do that still kept the
districts.
But the truth of the matter is
the Shelby County board wouldn't
budge.
And so, what were we supposed to
do?
>> Barnes: Alright, fair or not,
you're getting the last word on
that one.
We are out of time.
Thank you, Billy Orgel, Tomeka
Hart, David Reaves.
Thank you, Bill Dries.
Thank you for joining us.
Join us again next week.
Goodnight.
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