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>> HELLO, I'M MARTHA GONZALES CORTEZ,
C.E.O. OF THE HISPANIC CENTER OF WESTERN MICHIGAN,
AND IT IS MY HONOR AND PRIVILEGE TODAY
TO WELCOME OUR DISTINGUISHED FIRST SPEAKER
FOR THE GRCC DIVERSITY LECTURE SERIES OF 2013,
MR. JOSE ANTONIO VARGAS,
WHO IS A VERY RENOWNED, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR
AND DOCUMENTARIAN, AND WILL BE SPEAKING LATER TODAY
ON A CHARLA TITLED "NOT LEGAL, NOT LEAVING."
AND SO, MR. VARGAS, WELCOME TO GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN,
DURING ARTPRIZE WEEK-- >> YEAH!
>> IT IS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
>> SO I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS
THAT ARE BURNING QUESTIONS FOR ME,
THAT ARE PROBABLY LESS INTERESTING TO YOU
OR QUESTIONS THAT YOU'VE PROBABLY GOTTEN A MILLION TIMES
IN OTHER INTERVIEWS.
THE FIRST IS-- HOW DID YOU GET THE COURAGE
TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS?
WHAT WAS THAT MOMENT THAT PROMPTED YOU TO SAY,
"I'M DONE BEING AFRAID.
"I'M DONE LIVING IN ANONYMITY
"AND IN THE SHADOWS WITH THIS REALITY"?
CAN YOU TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT MOMENT?
>> WHY SUCH A HARD QUESTION?
>> (laughing) AS A STARTER-- I'M SORRY.
>> WELL, I-- WHAT'S FASCINATING TO ME
IS WHENEVER SOMEONE TELLS ME, YOU KNOW,
"THIS IS COURAGEOUS," I KEEP THINKING
ABOUT HOW MUCH OF A COWARD I WAS FOR SO LONG.
YOU KNOW, LIKE I DON'T THINK THIS IS COURAGEOUS.
I THINK, IN A WAY, I FEEL LIKE...
I JUST COULDN'T KEEP GOING.
I MEAN, I CAN TALK ABOUT LITTLE MOMENTS ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
GETTING PULLED OVER ON HIGHWAY 174 IN DALLAS,
COVERING A CAUCUS IN 2008 FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST"
AND GETTING STOPPED BY A SHERIFF AND PEEING MY PANTS,
BECAUSE MY DRIVER'S LICENSE-- I WASN'T SUPPOSED TO GET--
I CAN TALK ABOUT, LIKE, WHEN WE FOUND OUT ABOUT THE PULITZER
AND HOW HAPPY I WAS, AND THEN MY GRANDMOTHER CALLS ME
AND MY GRANDMOTHER... (chuckling)
INSTEAD OF SAYING, "CONGRATULATION,"
MY GRANDMOTHER SAYS, "(speaking Filipino),"
WHICH IN MY LANGUAGE MEANS,
"WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN WHEN PEOPLE FIND OUT?"
OR I REMEMBER ONE OF THE BIG, BIG MOMENTS
WAS WHEN I WAS INTERVIEWING MARK ZUCKERBERG.
I WAS PROFILING HIM FOR "THE NEW YORKER."
AND HE JUST ASKED ME A QUESTION IN THE MIDDLE OF MY INTERVIEW
WITH HIM-- HE ASKED ME A QUESTION ABOUT,
"LIKE WHERE ARE YOU FROM?"
VERY KIND OF BASIC QUESTION,
AND I FELT LIKE MY LIFE JUST KIND OF PASSED ME,
AND I WAS LIKE, "THIS IS CRAZY.
"WHERE I'M FROM-- I CAN'T EVEN TELL YOU
"WHERE I'M FROM BECAUSE I'M AFRAID TO TELL YOU--
"THAT IF I TOLD YOU, THEN ALL THIS *** WOULD HAPPEN."
AND THEN, I PUSH BACK AGAINST THE COURAGE PART
BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE THERE ARE 11 MILLION OF US,
MANY OF WHOM-- MOST OF WHOM DO NOT HAVE THE PRIVILEGE
THAT I HAVE TO EVEN BE INTERVIEWED
ABOUT BEING AN UNDOCUMENTED PERSON.
BECAUSE WE JUST KEEP-- YOU KNOW, WE JUST GET CALLED "ILLEGAL."
WE JUST GET LABELED AS PEOPLE WHO KEEP TAKING
AND TAKING AND TAKING FROM THIS COUNTRY
AND NOT CONTRIBUTING TO IT AND NOT ADDING TO IT.
SO THE LONG ANSWER TO THE QUESTION IS-- I DON'T--
I'M DOING WHAT I'M DOING BECAUSE IT'S NECESSARY FOR ME.
AND I JUST HOPE THAT WHATEVER IT IS THAT I'M DOING,
IT ALSO CAN BE HELPFUL TO THE LARGER CAUSE.
I RAN AWAY FOR SO LONG THAT I THINK I'M ONLY NOW
STARTING TO RUN TOWARDS MYSELF...
AND IT FEELS REALLY LIBERATING.
>> YOU WROTE AN ESSAY
IN "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE IN 2011,
AND THEN YOU WERE ON THE COVER OF "TIME" MAGAZINE
IN JUNE OF 2012.
HOW HAS YOUR LIFE CHANGED?
SO WE TALK ABOUT THE...
THE LIFE EVENTS AND MOMENTS THAT BROUGHT YOU TO THIS DECISION
TO COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS.
AND THEN, IT HAPPENED. >> YEAH.
>> HOW IS YOUR LIFE DIFFERENT NOW?
>> I MEAN, LEGALLY...
I'M ALL LAWYERED UP. >> (chuckling).
>> SO FOR SOMEBODY WHO DIDN'T REALLY LIKE TALKING TO LAWYERS,
THEY'RE LIKE MY BEST FRIENDS NOW.
YOU KNOW, I'M LIKE A...
IT'S CHANGED BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE I'M EMBRACING
EVERYTHING THAT I AM.
THAT'S THE POSITIVE THING.
IT'S GOTTEN MORE COMPLICATED.
LIKE I'M NOT ALLOWED TO WORK, I'M NOT ALLOWED TO BE EMPLOYED.
I MEAN, I'VE BEEN WORKING SINCE I WAS 17,
SO THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE
THAT I'M ACTUALLY NOT EMPLOYED BY ANYTHING.
BECAUSE WHEN I DECIDED TO DO THIS,
I HAD TO LEAVE ALL OF MY JOBS.
YOU KNOW, AT THE TIME,
I WAS EDITING AT THE "HUFFINGTON POST,"
I WAS WORKING FOR ARIANNA HUFFINGTON,
AND I WAS WRITING FOR "THE NEW YORKER,"
I WAS ABOUT TO DO A BOOK ON SOCIAL MEDIA
ON WHAT I CALL "CLICK-OCRACY--
"ONE NATION UNDER GOOGLE AND FACEBOOK,
"WITH VIDEO AND E-MAIL FOR ALL."
THAT WAS GOING TO BE THE BOOK.
SO I KINDA PUT ALL OF THAT ON HOLD TO DEAL WITH THIS.
AND THE IRONY OF IT IS THAT MY BIGGEST FEAR--
MY BIGGEST FEARS WAS, FRANKLY, I WASN'T SURE IF MY CAREER
WAS GOING TO SURVIVE IT.
YOU KNOW, I SPENT A DECADE OF MY LIFE REALLY BUILDING THIS CAREER
THAT I'VE ALWAYS DREAMED I WOULD HAVE,
HAVING THE APARTMENT IN NEW YORK
THAT I ALWAYS WANTED TO HAVE, RIGHT?
I IMAGINED THESE THINGS IN MY HEAD THAT BECAME REALITIES,
AND I WAS AFRAID THAT BY COMING OUT...
I WOULD LOSE THEM.
I CERTAINLY DID NOT ANTICIPATE THAT MY CAREER
WOULD BE BETTER FOR IT.
I DIDN'T ANTICIPATE THAT I WOULD ACTUALLY BE BETTER AT WHAT I DO.
SO THAT'S BEEN INTERESTING TO ME.
BUT NOW, INSTEAD OF-- BECAUSE UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE LIKE ME
ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE EMPLOYED LEGALLY,
BUT I FOUND OUT THAT IT DOESN'T MEAN
THAT WE CAN'T START BUSINESSES.
>> (laughing) YES. >> DID YOU KNOW THIS?
>> I DID.
IT'S A LITTLE KNOWN FACT, I THINK, TO THE MAINSTREAM WORLD.
>> WE CAN FORM THESE THINGS CALLED L.L.C.s.
I'M LIKE, "OH."
SO NOW-- I JUST FINISHED A DOCUMENTARY.
I HAVE A PRODUCTION COMPANY.
SO NOW, I'VE EMPLOYED-- I DON'T KNOW--
15, 20 AMERICAN CITIZENS.
I'M A JOB CREATOR.
>> (chuckling). >> WHAT?!
HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
YOU KNOW, AND THEN I STARTED THINKING,
"HOW MANY OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING THIS?"
SO THAT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF MY NEXT BIG STORIES
THAT I'M WORKING ON NOW IS TRYING TO COLLECT
AS MANY L.L.C.-OWNING UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BUSINESSES THAT EMPLOY AMERICAN CITIZENS,
AND TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT--
AND YO, LOOK, I'M COMPLETELY COGNIZANT OF THE FACT
THAT NOT EVERYBODY CAN COME OUT. >> YES.
>> I MEAN, THEY'RE ILLEGAL-- I MEAN--
SO I CAME OUT IN JUNE 2011 IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE.
A FEW MONTH PASSES BY, I GET ON "COLBERT," "O'REILLY"--
I DO EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY CAN DO, MEDIA-WISE.
I DON'T HEAR FROM ANYBODY.
PRESIDENT OBAMA, THAT YEAR, DEPORTED 400,000 PEOPLE
AND I WASN'T ONE OF THEM.
I WAS PREPARED TO BE DEPORTED FROM DAY ONE.
SO I CONTACTED THE EDITOR OF "TIME" MAGAZINE EIGHT MONTHS LATER
AND I SAID, "I WANT TO WRITE A STORY
"ABOUT WHY I HAVEN'T GOTTEN DEPORTED.
AND HE WAS LIKE, "OH... OKAY."
AND THANKFULLY-- I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU, BY THE WAY,
"TIME" MAGAZINE GAVE ME 5,000 WORDS
TO WRITE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS
TO BE A PUBLIC UNDOCUMENTED PERSON,
AND I CONVINCED THEM TO PUT 35 PEOPLE
ON THE COVER OF "TIME" MAGAZINE.
I AM SO INDEBTED TO THEM FOR ALLOWING THAT TO HAPPEN,
BECAUSE THEY VERY EASILY COULD HAVE BEEN,
"OH, THIS IS BIASED JOURNALISM!"
I WAS JUST REALLY HAPPY ABOUT THAT.
SO BACK TO YOUR QUESTION-- I DIDN'T THINK--
I DID NOT ANTICIPATE THAT MY CAREER
WOULD BE BETTER AND WOULD BE MORE HONEST
BECAUSE OF THIS WHOLE DECISION.
>> YOU HAVEN'T SEEN YOUR MOTHER IN A VERY LONG TIME.
>> YEAH, 20 YEARS THIS PAST AUGUST.
>> DO YOU HAVE SIBLINGS? >> YEAH.
SO WHEN I LEFT, MY MOTHER HAD GIVEN BIRTH TO MY SISTER--
SHE'S MY HALF-SISTER, BUT SHE'S MY SISTER.
SHE WAS 1 1/2 WHEN I LEFT--
>> JUST A BABY. >> SHE WAS A BABY.
AND MY BROTHER-- MY HALF-BROTHER--
IS NOW 18?
SO I'VE NEVER ACTUALLY MET HIM.
BUT YOU KNOW, LIKE ALL-- LIKE MOST IMMIGRANT FAMILIES,
I SEND MONEY EVERY MONTH, LIKE REMITTANCES.
SO I'VE PROVIDED FOR MY MOTHER AND MY SIBLINGS FOR A WHILE.
MY SISTER ACTUALLY JUST GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE.
>> OH, MY GOODNESS.
>> SO SHE HAS A NURSING DEGREE, SO I'M REALLY HAPPY ABOUT THAT.
>> OH, CONGRATULATIONS.
>> BUT YEAH, SO I HAVEN'T SEEN THEM.
IN THE FILM, ACTUALLY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DO
FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT I REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO DO,
ESPECIALLY ON FILM, WAS TO SKYPE.
SO WE SKYPED FOR THE FIRST TIME.
>> WHY THE RELUCTANCE TO SKYPE?
TOO PAINFUL?
>> BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO SEE THEM.
IT WAS MUCH EASIER JUST TO SEND THE MONEY EVERY MONTH
AND PRETEND THAT "THIS IS THE SITUATION
"AND IT'S MESSED UP, BUT THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT IT."
AND JUST...
WHY THINK ABOUT IT, RIGHT?
WHEN IT WOULD JUST MAKE YOU CRAZY?
WHAT IS THAT THING-- "YOU CANNOT FACE WHAT YOU CANNOT FEAR."
AND SO-- "YOU CANNOT CHANGE WHAT YOU CANNOT FACE."
SO I SENT A FILM CREW TO THE PHILIPPINES TO FILM HER
AND MY SIBLINGS.
SO WHEN THE FOOTAGE GOT BACK, AND, YOU KNOW...
EDITING MY MOM.
LIKE THAT'S KIND OF-- AND I HAD SUCH A MEMORY OF WHEN I LEFT.
YOU KNOW, I HAD THIS MEMORY--
I WAS 12, AND SHE WAS THIS YOUNG WOMAN,
AND NOW THERE SHE IS STARING AT ME ON CAMERA.
YOU KNOW...
I LEARNED ABOUT AMERICA,
AND I LEARNED TO SPEAK ENGLISH THE WAY THAT I DO
BECAUSE OF FILMS.
I WOULD HAVE NEVER ANTICIPATED THAT FILM WOULD HELP ME
KIND OF GRAPPLE WITH THIS.
SO THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING, TOO,
BECAUSE AS A WRITER AND NOW AS A FILMMAKER--
TWO VERY, VERY DIFFERENT MEDIUMS THAT LOOK AT TRANSPARENCY
AND LOOK AT AUTHENTICITY IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
YOU PUT A CAMERA IN FRONT OF SOMEBODY AND THEY--
YOU KNOW, IT BECOMES A QUESTION OF EMPATHY.
>> DO YOU HAVE A SENSE--
BECAUSE I IMAGINE THAT YOU'VE TRAVELED EXTENSIVELY--
AND I DO WANT US TO GET BACK TO THIS ISSUE OF YOUR SKILL
AND ARTISTIC ABILITY TO MANAGE DIFFERENT GENRES,
BECAUSE I THINK THAT THAT IS AS REMARKABLE AS YOUR STORY IS.
BUT I'M CURIOUS-- I THINK AT THIS POINT IN THIS WORK
THAT YOU'RE DOING, YOU'VE PROBABLY TRAVELED EXTENSIVELY,
MET AN AWFUL LOT OF IMMIGRANTS
AND IMMIGRANT KIDS AND DREAMERS.
AND I GET THIS QUESTION A LOT--
I DON'T HOW TO ANSWER IT SOMETIMES--
THE QUESTION OF "HOW MANY PEOPLE OF THE 11 OR 12 OR 13 MILLION
"THAT ARE UNDOCUMENTED IN THE U.S. HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS
"AND FAMILIES THAT THEY HAVEN'T SEEN?
"CHILDREN THAT THEY'RE SEPARATED FROM?"
TO TRY TO GET A SENSE
OF THE HUMAN TOLL OF MISERY AND SADNESS--
>> AREN'T YOU SURPRISED THE SKY HASN'T JUST FALLEN?
>> (chuckling) I AM!
JUST FROM THE SHEER GRIEF OF THAT.
AND SO, I'M WONDERING IF YOU HAVE A BETTER SENSE NOW,
AFTER HAVING COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS,
HAVING STARTED TO DO THE SPEAKING TOURS
AND THE INTERVIEWS AND SUCH.
DO YOU HAVE A STRONGER SENSE OF HOW MANY PEOPLE
MIGHT BE IMPACTED BY BROKEN LIVES,
BROKEN FAMILIES IN THE WAY THAT YOU ARE?
>> AND AGAIN-- I MEAN, I'M GLAD THAT YOU SAY THIS,
BECAUSE A BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM MEANS BROKEN FAMILIES,
WHICH MEANS BROKEN LIVES.
LIKE, THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT,
THIS IS NOT ABOUT CONSERVATIVE OR LIBERAL, RIGHT?
I CAN'T GIVE NUMBERS--
I MEAN, THERE ARE NUMBERS THAT I CAN CITE
THAT THERE ARE 17 MILLION PEOPLE LIKE ME
IN WHAT THEY CALL "MIXED STATUS HOUSEHOLDS," RIGHT?
17 MILLION IN MIXED STATUS HOUSEHOLDS.
SO I'M FILIPINO.
I COME FROM A LARGE-- FILIPINOS ARE LIKE THE ITALIANS OF ASIA.
WE HAVE HUGE FAMILIES.
SO LIKE OUT OF 35 EXTENDED FAMILY IN THE UNITED STATES,
I'M THE ONLY 1 OF 35 WHO'S UNDOCUMENTED.
THAT'S A MIXED STATUS FAMILY.
4.5 MILLION AMERICAN CITIZEN KIDS HAVE AT LEAST ONE PARENT
WHO'S UNDOCUMENTED.
AND OF COURSE, WHEN THE PARENTS GET DEPORTED
AND PRESIDENT OBAMA IS, RIGHT NOW, ON TRACK
TO DEPORT ABOUT 2 MILLION IMMIGRANTS IN FIVE YEARS,
MORE THAN ANY OTHER PRESIDENT IN MODERN HISTORY.
SO WHEN THE PARENTS GET DEPORTED,
WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENS TO THE KIDS?
FOSTER CARE.
SO THERE ARE 5,000 KIDS RIGHT NOW WHO ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS
WHOSE PARENTS ARE UNDOCUMENTED WHO ARE IN FOSTER CARE.
SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING TO EACH OTHER.
AND IF YOU TIE THIS BACK TO THE NARRATIVE OF AMERICA,
9/11 REALLY CHANGED EVERYTHING, RIGHT?
IT WAS CALLED "IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE"
FOR WHAT, 80 YEARS?
EIGHTY YEARS.
AND THEN, IT BECAME "THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY."
AND SOMEWHERE, GEORGE ORWELL--
YOU KNOW, SOMEWHERE, GEORGE ORWELL JUST, YOU KNOW,
GOT UP FROM THE GRAVE AND JUST LEFT.
>> (laughing) JUST LEFT!
>> SO WE WERE TERRORIZED-- WE WERE TERRORIZED.
THE COUNTRY WAS TERRORIZED,
AND THEN WE STARTED TERRORIZING EACH OTHER.
AND WE ARE A COUNTRY THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN--
OUR HISTORY HAS SHOWN US THAT WE'RE A COUNTRY
THAT WE ALWAYS WANT SOMEONE TO BE THE "OTHER," RIGHT?
THE "OTHER" IN AMERICA-- THE BLACKS-- THE "BLACKS,"
THE GAYS, AND THE ILLEGALS.
AND I CANNOT-- I'M NOT LATINO.
SO WHEN YOU SEE AN ASIAN-LOOKING PERSON WITH A HISPANIC NAME,
THAT MEANS THEY'RE FILIPINO.
I WISH I HAD A SHIRT THAT WOULD JUST SAY THAT.
>> (laughing).
>> I'M NOT LATINO, BUT TRAVELING TO PLACES LIKE ALABAMA
AND ARKANSAS AND SOUTH CAROLINA AND GEORGIA,
WHERE THE ANTI-LATINO, ANTI-MEXICAN...
ASTOUNDING.
AND YOU KNOW, WHAT'S DIFFERENT NOW IS-- YOU KNOW, IN THE '60s--
I WAS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES MAJOR IN COLLEGE,
STUDYING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
LIKE, THAT WAS ALL VERY OVERT, RIGHT?
THE RACISM WAS SO BRAZEN,
AND SO LIKE "WATER FOUNTAIN HERE, THERE--
"BACK OF THE BUS."
LIKE THAT.
THE RACISM NOW-- AND IT IS RACISM--
THAT LATINOS IN AMERICA ARE GOING THROUGH IS--
A LOT OF IT IS JUST UNSPOKEN.
AND SOME PART OF IT I ACTUALLY EXPLORE IN THE FILM,
AND WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IS,
"WHAT IS THE TOLL OF THAT?"
IS IT ANY SURPRISE THAT LATINO KIDS AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN KIDS
ARE NOW TWO OF THE UNDER-PERFORMING STUDENTS
IN SCHOOLS?
ARE WE SURPRISED BY THIS?
I MEAN, THE MOST INSIDIOUS THINGS--
TO ME, THE MOST INSIDIOUS THING ABOUT STEREOTYPES
IS WHEN PEOPLE LIVE UP TO THEM.
AND I THINK WE HAVE A SITUATION RIGHT NOW
WHERE WE HAVE LATINO KIDS WHO-- THAT ARE CALLED "ILLEGAL."
OR "YOU'RE NOT WANTED HERE."
OR "GET RID OF THAT ACCENT.
"WHAT IS THAT ACCENT?"
YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERNALIZED.
AND THAT'S WHY, FOR OUR CAMPAIGN--
YOU KNOW, FROM VERY BEGINNING, IT'S "DEFINE AMERICAN."
WE DIDN'T CALL IT "DEFINE IMMIGRANT," RIGHT?
IT'S "DEFINE AMERICAN." >> MMM-HMM.
AND I APPRECIATE EVERYTHING THAT YOU'VE DONE
THROUGH THAT NONPROFIT.
I WAS SPENDING SOME TIME LOOKING AT THE CAMPAIGN.
>> THANK YOU-- WE'RE DOING MORE!
WE JUST HIRED A FIELD DIRECTOR LAST WEEK.
I'M REALLY LOOKING-- AND WE HIRED THIS GUY
WHO'S LIKE AN ORDAINED MINISTER. >> AND THIS IS A NONPROFIT?
>> NONPROFIT-- A NONPROFIT CAMPAIGN.
AND WHAT WE'RE REALLY DOING IS-- YOU KNOW, I'M NOT AN ORGANIZER.
I'M TRYING TO STAY TRUE TO WHAT I DO AND WHO I AM.
I'M NOT A LEADER, I'M NOT AN ORGANIZER, I'M NOT AN ACTIVIST.
WHAT I DO IS, AS A WRITER AND AS A FILMMAKER,
I KNOW HOW NARRATIVES ARE FORMED,
AND I KNOW HOW IMPORTANT STORIES ARE.
AND SO, WE'RE GOING TO BE DEVELOPING SOME PROGRAMS
THAT TRANSCEND KIND OF THE PARTISAN POLITICAL-IDEOLOGICAL DIVIDE,
AND REALLY LAND THIS ISSUE SQUARELY ON AMERICAN VALUES,
AND KIND OF WHO WE ARE AS A COUNTRY AND WHERE WE'RE GOING,
AND WHAT KIND OF STORIES WE TELL OURSELVES.
AND FOR US, THE BIG PUSH THAT WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS YEAR--
ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING WHERE WASHINGTON IS
ON IMMIGRATION REFORM-- IS TO REALLY PUSH ON ALLIES.
YOU KNOW, THE GOOD SAMARITANS KIND OF AMONGST US, RIGHT?
LIKE THE TEACHER
THAT HAS MENTORED THE UNDOCUMENTED STUDENT,
THE NEIGHBOR THAT MAKES SURE THAT THE UNDOCUMENTED WORKER
HAS A RIDE TO WORK,
THE PRIESTS WHO MAKE SURE THAT THE UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE
WHO GO TO CHURCH ARE TAKEN CARE OF AND ARE LOOKED AFTER.
THESE ARE THE VOICES THAT WE RARELY HEAR FROM...
AND WE NEED THEM TO SPEAK UP.
LIKE, WE ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE THIS ISSUE
UNTIL WE HAVE BLACK AMERICA AND WHITE AMERICA SPEAKING UP
AND STANDING ALONGSIDE LATINOS AND ASIANS IN AMERICA.
>> I THINK WHAT'S REMARKABLE
ABOUT THE WAY YOU FRAMED THIS DEBATE ABOUT IMMIGRATION
AS THE NEED TO DEFINE
AND REDEFINE OUR HUMANITY
AND OUR COLLECTIVE IDENTITY AS AMERICANS--
I THINK YOUR PUSH ON THE NARRATIVE
AND TO RE-FRAME THE NARRATIVE IS REMARKABLE,
TO ATTEMPT TO PUSH FOR A CULTURAL SHIFT
AT THAT LEVEL THROUGH MEDIA,
WHICH I THINK IS ONE OF THE FEW FORMATS WHERE YOU CAN DO THAT--
>> YOU KNOW, WHEN I CAME OUT, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD
WHAT I MEANT, AND THAT'S WHY I THINK I WAS SO HAPPY
ABOUT THE "TIME" MAGAZINE COVER, BECAUSE I COULD TELL PEOPLE,
"THIS IS WHAT I MEAN."
SO MY TARGET IS-- HOW DO WE GET ON "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE?
HOW DO WE GET A COVER OF GOOD SAMARITANS
ON THE COVER OF "TIME" MAGAZINE?
SAYING, "WE ARE THE ONES--
S"WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEMS,
"WE ARE THE ONES WHO ARE FILLING THE GAP.
"WE ARE THE ONES WHO ARE SAYING,
"'THERE IS THE LAW AND THERE IS JUSTICE,
"'AND THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.'"
AND THE THING I'M REALLY, REALLY EXCITED ABOUT
IS HOW DO WE PUSH HOLLYWOOD?
HOW DO WE BETTER INTEGRATE--
HOW DO WE BETTER INTEGRATE STORYLINES
OF MIXED STATUS FAMILIES AND UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE
AND IMMIGRANT FAMILIES?
WHY CAN'T SOFIA VERGARA IN "MODERN FAMILY"
HAVE AN UNDOCUMENTED COUSIN OR SOMETHING?
AREN'T YOU JUST DYING FOR THAT TO HAPPEN?
>> (laughing) WE ARE-- I'M SURE IT'S AROUND THE BEND.
>> THERE WAS AN EPISODE LAST WEEK WITH--
OH, GOD, WHAT'S THE SON'S NAME?
I LOVE THE SON-- DO YOU KNOW WHO I'M TALKING ABOUT?
>> YES, I KNOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
>> MANNY, MANNY!
SO THERE WAS AN EPISODE TWO WEEKS AGO
WHEN MANNY LOST HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE
AND COULDN'T FIND IT,
AND I'M SITTING THERE ON MY COUCH GOING LIKE, "OH, GOSH.
"OH-- OH, MY GOD, IS THIS HAPPENING?"
IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
BUT IN MY IDEAL WORLD,
LIKE IF WE AREN'T DRAGGING KIM KARDASHIAN
AND SNOOKI INTO THIS CONVERSATION,
WE ARE NOT DOING OUR JOB. >> YES.
AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S ADMIRABLE
THAT YOU WANT TO PUSH VISIBILITY ON ALLIES...
BUT ALLIES HAVE ALSO BEEN IN THE SHADOWS WITH US, RIGHT?
I MEAN, IN A LOT OF WAYS, IT'S PREACHING TO THE CHOIR
TO SAY TO THEM, "STAND UP, STEP UP, STAND UP AND BE HEARD."
WHAT I SEE YOU DOING ON THE CAMPAIGN WITH "DEFINE AMERICA,"
THOUGH, IS ALSO PUSHING AT PEOPLE
THAT WE NORMALLY WOULD NOT BE ENGAGED IN CONVERSATION WITH.
>> YES!
>> AND PART OF WHAT-- ONE OF THE BURNING QUESTIONS
I HAVE ABOUT THAT WORK IS "MY GOD, MAN.
"HOW DO YOU SURVIVE THE EFFORT TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION?"
BECAUSE I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE POSTS OF THINGS
THAT COME BACK IN YOUR DIRECTION.
HOW DO YOU SURVIVE PHYSICALLY, MENTALLY, EMOTIONALLY
THE CONSTANT BACKLASH OF PEOPLE
THAT MAYBE AREN'T READY FOR CONVERSATION?
>> STARBUCKS. >> (laughing).
>> HOW DO I SURVIVE? >> UNEXPECTED ANSWER. (laughing)
>> NO, HOW DO I-- YOU KNOW, THE GREATEST GIFT
THAT I THINK JOURNALISM HAS GIVEN ME IS EMPATHY.
THERE ISN'T ANYBODY THAT I CAN'T SIT DOWN WITH
AND NOT LISTEN TO AND NOT JUDGE AND NOT EMPATHIZE WITH.
LIKE I REMEMBER ONCE FOLLOWING SARAH PALIN AROUND
IN OHIO DURING JUNE OF 2008 GENERAL CAMPAIGN
FEELING LIKE I HAD JUST GOTTEN TRANSPORTED
TO A DIFFERENT COUNTRY.
AND I'M THINKING, "NO-NO-NO, THIS IS OUR COUNTRY."
AND TALKING TO TEA PARTY PEOPLE-- LIKE RIGHT NOW,
WE'RE PLANNING A SCREENING OF THE FILM WITH A TEA PARTY GROUP.
BECAUSE TO ME, I THINK A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO
WITH THE FACT THAT I AM GENUINELY CURIOUS
ABOUT PEOPLE AND WHY PEOPLE THINK WHAT THEY THINK,
AND WHY DO THEY BELIEVE WHAT THEY--
WHY DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE?
AND WHAT STORIES DO YOU TELL YOURSELF TO DELUDE YOU
OR TO MAKE YOU THINK THAT?
I DID A WEEKLONG LECTURE SERIES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA
IN TUSCALOOSA...
AND THAT WAS A REALLY-- THAT WAS A REAL WAKE-UP CALL TO ME.
AND AFTER THAT, ACTUALLY--
THIS WAS LAST YEAR WHEN I WAS FILMING THE DOCUMENTARY--
I DECIDED THAT MY NEXT DOCUMENTARY
IS NOW GOING TO BE ON WHITENESS.
SO I'M IN PRE-PRODUCTION ON A DOCUMENTARY ON WHITENESS,
ON WHAT IT MEANS TO BE WHITE IN A COUNTRY
THAT'S GETTING LESS AND LESS WHITE,
ON WHAT DOES WHITENESS MEAN IN THE POST-OBAMA ERA,
AND TALKING TO WORKING-CLASS WHITE PEOPLE ABOUT--
BECAUSE LOOK, IF YOU ARE LIKE A WORKING--
FIRST OF ALL, WORKING-CLASS WHITE PEOPLE,
THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT WHITE PRIVILEGE.
THEY DON'T THINK THEY'RE PRIVILEGED.
THEY THINK SOME TRAIN LEFT THE STATION,
AND THE TRAIN HAS LIKE J.LO
AND, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE ASIAN PEOPLE--
>> SOME REALLY ATTRACTIVE AND TALENTED PEOPLE--
>> AND BARACK OBAMA AND BEYONCE AND JAY Z ARE ALL ON THE TRAIN,
AND THEY'RE NOT ON IT.
AND THEY GET CALLED RACIST, RIGHT?
AND THEY HAVE KIND OF--
IT MIGHT BE-- AND IN SOME OF THE INTERVIEWS THAT WE'VE DONE,
KIND OF A DEFENSIVE, YOU KNOW--
SO I WANT TO UNPACK THAT.
BECAUSE AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED,
WHAT'S AT STAKE IN AMERICA
ISN'T REALLY MINORITY RIGHTS, AS WE CALL IT.
I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY DEFINING
EXACTLY WHO THE MAJORITY EVEN IS.
AND GIVEN THAT, QUOTE-UNQUOTE, "WHITE PEOPLE"--
AND I SAY "QUOTE-UNQUOTE"
BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE THIS COUNTRY INVENTED "WHITE"
LIKE IT INVENTED "BLACK."
AND THERE'S ALL THESE LATINO AND ASIAN PEOPLE--
EVERYBODY IS JUST CONFUSED.
TRYING TO KIND OF ISOLATE AND IDENTIFY
WHAT EVEN "WHITENESS" IS...
I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE PART OF THE STORY
IN THE NEXT FEW DECADES.
WHAT IS GOING ON IN CAPITOL HILL RIGHT NOW?
RIGHT? >> PROXY WAR. (chuckling)
>> AND I DON'T MEAN TO SOUND--
THIS IS GOING TO SOUND REALLY CRAZY
BUT I ALMOST FEEL LIKE, GIVEN ALL THE CHANGE IN WOMEN'S RIGHTS
AND LATINOS AND ASIANS AND BLACKS
AND, YOU KNOW, GAYS AND IMMIGRANTS...
WHAT'S ALMOST AT STAKE IN AMERICA
IS THE SOUL OF HETEROSEXUAL WHITE MEN?
>> HMM. >> AND THAT'S A BIG--
YOU KNOW-- WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS
HOW MUCH CHANGE CAN THEY HANDLE?
RIGHT?
AND REALLY, HOW CAN WE GET OUR SOCIETY,
WHICH DOESN'T TALK ABOUT RACE--
AND MORE THAN THAT, DOESN'T TALK ABOUT CLASS--
THAT'S A BIG ONE.
>> AND HAS TROUBLE TALKING ABOUT SEXUALITY.
>> AND SEXUALITY.
I MEAN LIKE ALL THESE THINGS ARE LIKE--
THIS IS WHY, YOU KNOW, MY BIGGEST IDOL GROWING UP
WAS JAMES BALDWIN.
I MEAN, SOMETIMES I WONDER, "WHAT WOULD JAMES BALDWIN,
"THE WRITER, WOULD MAKE OF THIS WORLD RIGHT NOW,
"IN WHICH EVERYBODY IN AMERICA FEELS LIKE THEY'RE A MINORITY?"
THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE A MINORITY.
THAT THE AMERICA THAT WAS PROMISED TO THEM
ISN'T WHAT THE AMERICA IS RIGHT NOW.
AND THAT'S GOING TO REALLY INFORM MY WORK.
WHICH IS WHY IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE LIKE,
"OH, I THOUGHT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO TALK ABOUT IMMIGRATION?"
WELL, THIS IS WAY BIGGER THAN IMMIGRATION, MAN.
LIKE THIS IS A QUESTION OF IMMIGRATION, CITIZENSHIP,
AND IDENTITY.
THIS IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.
>> DO YOU EVER-- WELL, SOME OF THE TOPICS YOU JUST TOUCHED ON--
(both laughing)
JUST KIND OF HINTED AT, THESE NEXT PROJECTS,
ARE VERY-- THEY'RE PAINFUL SUBJECTS TO EXPLORE,
AND THEY'RE POTENTIALLY-- >> YOU THINK IT'S PAINFUL?
>> I THINK THE PEOPLE THAT HAVEN'T EXPLORED
SOME OF THESE CONCEPTS PUBLICLY
AND HAVEN'T HAD A VENUE AND A SPACE
AND A WAY TO TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES PUBLICLY--
>> AND IT'S FUNNY, TOO, BECAUSE, EVEN NOW,
I'M THINKING ABOUT, FOR THE WHITE DOCUMENTARY,
AND I'M THINKING ABOUT, LIKE, HOW DO I EVEN FILM THAT?
>> YES. >> HOW DO I EVEN--
YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN STUDYING A LOT OF ERROL MORRIS' WORK
AND OLDER FREDERICK WISEMAN-- I LOVE THE DOCUMENTARIANS.
LIKE THE ROBERT ALTMAN OF DOCUMENTARIES.
LIKE STUDYING HOW--
BECAUSE I WANT THE CAMERA THERE TO NOT JUDGE.
I JUST WANT THE CAMERA TO JUST LISTEN, RIGHT?
LIKE I INTERVIEWED THIS GENTLEMAN RECENTLY
FOR THE PRE-PRODUCTION OF THE FILM
WHO HAS BEEN A LONG-TIME ENGLISH TEACHER AT A HIGH SCHOOL,
AND HE SAID-- A WHITE GUY, AND HE SAID,
"EVERY TIME I WAS UP FOR A PROMOTION,
"THERE WAS ALWAYS SOMEBODY LESS QUALIFIED WHO'S A WOMAN,
"WHO IS A PERSON OF COLOR WHO GOT THE JOB."
AND HE SAID THAT TO ME.
I WAS JUST-- I MEAN, I HAD A CAMERA BUT THE CAMERA WASN'T--
I MEAN, I DIDN'T CAPTURE IT HOW I WANTED TO CAPTURE IT,
BUT I WANTED TO KIND OF SEE-- I WANT THAT--
I WANT TO HEAR HIM OUT, RIGHT?
I WANT HIM TO SAY THAT
AND I WANT TO, LIKE, MAKE SURE THAT HE'S BEING HEARD.
I MEAN, BECAUSE THAT CAN LAND IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS, RIGHT?
THE WOMAN PERSON THOUGHT, "WELL, WAIT UP A SECOND!
"YOU DIDN'T EVEN LET US IN THE CLUB UNTIL 50 YEARS AGO
"AND NOW YOU'RE COMPLAINING?"
YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE HAVING--
AND THE FACT THAT I'VE GONE THROUGH THIS MYSELF,
THE WHOLE FILMING PROCESS OF THE DOCUMENTARY--
AND I GUESS IN SOME WAYS, IT PREPARES ME FOR THIS,
BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT...
IT IS GOING TO BE A PAINFUL CONVERSATION.
BUT UNLESS WE HAVE IT, WE CAN'T REALLY MOVE FORWARD.
>> YES.
>> I MEAN, LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.
>> AND SO PART OF MY QUESTION WAS,
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THREATENED?
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN PERSONALLY THREATENED,
PHYSICALLY THREATENED?
AND I ASK THAT QUESTION BECAUSE THOSE OF US
THAT DO THE ADVOCACY WORK ON THE FRONTLINE,
WHEN WE PUSH AT THESE ISSUES--
RACIAL EQUITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE, WHITE PRIVILEGE--
THERE'S STUFF THAT COMES BACK AT US.
IN PLACES LIKE ALABAMA AND IN PLACES LIKE MICHIGAN,
WHERE THERE ARE 27 HATE GROUPS
AND 23 OF THEM ARE ORGANIZED AGAINST ANTI-IMMIGRANT HATE.
YOU KNOW-- >> WHOA, 27?!
>> TWENTY-SEVEN. >> DID WE INVITE THEM TONIGHT?
>> I DON'T KNOW-- THEY MIGHT BE IN THE AUDIENCE!
>> WE SHOULD HAVE INVITED THEM! >> THEY MIGHT BE THERE TONIGHT.
AND SO-- (laughing)
UM, THEY MIGHT BE THERE TONIGHT BECAUSE THEY COME TO OUR EVENTS.
>> ISN'T IT JUST A LOT OF EXHAUSTION TO FORM A HATE GROUP?
>> OR A MILITIA.
YEAH... >> THAT'S JUST...
>> AND SO, I WONDER--
IS LIFE FOR YOU, IN YOUR ADVOCACY SPHERE,
DIFFERENT THAN IT IS FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME
IN A LOCAL COMMUNITY WHERE YOU THEN HAVE TO READ THE MAIL?
THE SNAIL MAIL WITH THE DEATH THREAT?
HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED ANY OF THAT?
ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT PERSONAL SAFETY?
>> YOU KNOW, I GET A LOT OF E-MAILS
AND SOMETIMES SOME CRAZY ONES ABOUT--
YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I'M SO PUBLIC.
I'M NOT AFRAID TO SAY WHERE I'M GOING TO BE OR WHERE I AM.
IT'S SO FUNNY-- LIKE, I WAS SO AFRAID FOR SO LONG--
I WAS SO AFRAID FOR SO LONG.
AND I THINK I WAS EVEN SO AFRAID OF MYSELF.
IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE I'VE BEEN TELLING MY FRIENDS LIKE--
BECAUSE SOME OF MY FRIENDS-- MOST OF THEM DIDN'T EVEN KNOW.
I TOLD MAYBE 10 PEOPLE?
>> THAT WAS YOUR INNER CIRCLE. >> YEAH.
AND ONE OF THEM SAID TO ME, "BUT YOU GOT TO BE SO SUCCESSFUL!"
HE JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT.
HE WAS LIKE-- I LIKE, "EVERYTHING I'VE DONE,
"I'VE DONE IT WITH MY HANDS TIED BEHIND MY BACK," YOU KNOW?
I'M JUST GETTING STARTED.
I FEEL LIKE I'M ACTUALLY JUST GETTING STARTED,
AND I FEEL LIKE ALL THOSE YEARS KIND OF BEING AFRAID OF MYSELF
AND BEING AFRAID OF THE SITUATION, IN SOME WAYS,
IT'S LIKE, "YOU CAN'T BREAK ME.
"YOU CAN'T."
AND WHATEVER IT IS THAT I WENT THROUGH--
AND I DON'T WANNA LIKE--
I DON'T WANT TO DO LIKE MORAL RELATIVISM HERE, BUT...
I'M NOT A WOMAN OF COLOR.
I CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHAT WOMEN OF COLOR GO THROUGH.
I CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHAT A BLACK LESBIAN WOMAN--
YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALL THESE SITUATIONS WHERE I'M LIKE,
"WHATEVER IT IS THAT I'M GOING THROUGH,
"SOMEONE IS GOING THROUGH IT, TOO.
"AND PEOPLE HAVE GONE THROUGH WORSE."
SO I GET THE DEATH THREATS, I GET SOME OF THAT STUFF,
BUT I DON'T REALLY-- PHYSICALLY, IT'S BEEN--
I KNOW KARATE.
>> (laughing) YOU FEEL PREPARED.
>> I FEEL PREPARED, AND MY EYEBROWS A REALLY SCARY.
I THINK THEY SCARE PEOPLE. >> (laughing).
>> PEOPLE TELL ME THIS ALL THE TIME.
SO I'M NOT REALLY THAT SCARED OF IT.
BUT AGAIN, I'M IN THIS--
EVERY DAY, I WAKE UP KNOWING THE FACT
THAT I AM THE MOST PRIVILEGED UNDOCUMENTED PERSON IN AMERICA.
I AM.
AND THAT COMES WITH A CERTAIN KIND OF STRENGTH.
THE COMES WITH A LOT OF RESPONSIBILITY AND OBLIGATION.
AND THERE ARE TIMES THAT I'M LIKE, "I JUST WANT MY OLD LIFE BACK,"
WHEN I COULD JUST WRITE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE
AND NOT BE INTERVIEWED. (laughing)
BECAUSE I'M GOOD AT THE OTHER STUFF.
THIS IS LIKE-- YOU KNOW-- THIS IS PART OF EMBRACING KIND OF,
I GUESS, WHAT HAS HAPPENED...
AND IN MANY WAYS, TOO, HONORING THE VERY PEOPLE
THAT MADE ME WHO I AM.
YOU KNOW, I OWE-- I BELIEVE-- I FIRMLY BELIEVE
IN THE KINDNESS AND THE GENEROSITY
OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN THE BENEFICIARY OF IT.
AND I EXIST BECAUSE OF IT.
SO IN HONOR OF MY PRINCIPAL AND MY SUPERINTENDENT
AND THE GUY THAT SENT ME TO COLLEGE FOR FOUR YEARS
AND THE GUY AT THE "WASHINGTON POST" WHO SAVED MY CAREER,
LIKE, I'M GOING TO KEEP DOING WHAT I'M DOING.
>> AND ON THAT REMARKABLE NOTE OF HUMILITY AND COMPASSION
AND GRATITUDE, I THINK WE WILL END THIS INTERVIEW TODAY.
IT'S BEEN A REMARKABLE CONVERSATION.
THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> OH, THANK YOU.
>> AND FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW IN OUR VIEWING AUDIENCE,
TELL US THE NAME OF YOUR DOCUMENTARY
AND HOW WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO TUNE INTO IT ONCE IT AIRS.
>> YES, SO IT'S CALLED "DOCUMENTED--
"DOCUMENTING THE UNDOCUMENTED EXPERIENCE"--
BECAUSE YOU KNOW, WE LIKE TO PLAY AROUND WITH WORDS.
"DOCUMENTED."
AND ACTUALLY, I CAN'T ANNOUNCE THIS YET
BECAUSE IT'S NOT PUBLIC, BUT IT'S GOING TO GO
TO A REALLY, REALLY MAJOR FILM FESTIVAL INTERNATIONALLY
IN THE NEXT MONTH OR SO.
WE'RE DOING SOME MORE FESTIVALS,
WE'RE GOING TO BE ON A MAJOR CABLE CHANNEL
BY MIDDLE OF NEXT YEAR,
AND THEN WE'LL BE IN THEATERS IN THE SPRING...
AND HOPEFULLY NETFLIX.
I AM-- I'M NOT PLAYING AROUND. (laughing)
LIKE I'M TRYING TO THINK ABOUT THIS,
ESPECIALLY NOW IN THE AGE OF SOCIAL MEDIA
AND THE AGE OF "NOTHING IS REALLY MAINSTREAM
"BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS NICHE."
LIKE FIGURING OUT HOW DO YOU REALLY TARGET DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES?
AND I CAN'T WAIT TO BRING THE FILM HERE IN GRAND RAPIDS.
WE'VE ALREADY STARTED TALKING ABOUT JUST HOLDING A SCREENING,
AND INVITING SOME OF THESE 27 HATE GROUPS!
>> (laughing) WE CAN HAVE CHAIRS SET UP ESPECIALLY.
>> I'LL INVITE THEM PERSONALLY! >> YEAH--
>> I'LL MAKE THEM LUMPIA-- IT'S LIKE A FILIPINO EGG ROLL.
IT'S REALLY GOOD. >> (laughing)
WE WOULD BE HAPPY TO PARTNER WITH YOU ON THIS VENTURE,
AND I'M SURE THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE
AND THE WOODRICK INSTITUTE WOULD ALSO BE WILLING PARTNERS
IN YOUR MILD INSANITY. >> (laughing).
>> BUT VERY COURAGEOUS ADVOCACY.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.