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>> SAYING STATE-DESIGNED TEACHER EVALUATIONS PUT TOO
MUCH FOCUS ON STANDARDIZED TEST RESULTS AND TOO MUCH OF
A BURDON ON PRINCIPALS, THE APS BOARD WANTS TO USE ITS
OWN SYSTEM TO MEASURE EFFECTIVENESS OF ITS OWN
EDUCATORS. NOW, LAURA, EDUCATION POLICY
CAN GET REALLY THICK, BUT BASICALLY APS SAYS THIS:
THEIR SYSTEM LETS THEM BE MORE FLEXIBLE IN GRADING
TEACHERS. IS THAT INHERENTLY BETTER,
AND DO DISTRICTS NEED AN OBJECTIVE MEASURE?
AND DO STANDARDIZED TESTS PROVIDE THE BEST WAY TO DO
THIS? THERE'S A COUPLE OF
DIFFERENT THINGS IN THERE, SO LET'S START WITH THE
FIRST ONE, JUST THE IDEA OF BREAKING AWAY FROM THE STATE
HERE TO EVALUATE ONE'S OWN TEACHERS, JUST AS A BROAD
PRINCIPLE, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?
>> MIXED. ON THE FACE OF IT, IT'S
MIXED FOR ME BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, I THINK THAT THEY
ARE IN A GOOD POSITION TO EVALUATE LOCALLY WHAT
TEACHERS EFFECTIVENESS ARE, WHAT THE NEEDS OF THE SCHOOL
IS, THE PATTERNS OF TEACHERS.
THEIR ABILITY TO MAKE CHANGES ADMINISTRATIVELY TO
ADDRESS CERTAIN PROBLEMS I THINK THEY'RE IN A BETTER
POSITION FOR. ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK
GIVING A SCHOOL DISTRICT -- YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF LIKE,
BASICALLY -- WHAT'S THAT SAYING?
>> CARTE BLANCHE? >> EXACTLY, THANK YOU.
IT'S A LITTLE BIT THAT WAY. >> AREN'T THEY IN THE BEST
POSITION TO -- >> NO, I DON'T NECESSARILY
THINK THAT, BECAUSE I THINK IT HELPS TO HAVE MORE OF
A -- TO ME, I THINK IT COULD WORK, BUT IT HASN'T WORKED
RECENTLY, IS THE PROBLEM. AND I THINK THAT THE STATE
PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN RIDDLED WITH ALL
KINDS OF CRITICISM, NOT TO MENTION THE ENDLESS
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS OF THE SECRETARY, WHICH ADDED TO
THE CIRCUS-LIKE EFFECT OF EVERYTHING, I THINK, GOING
ON WITH THE PED. SO I AM MIXED ABOUT IT,
BECAUSE I THINK ON THE ONE HAND, THEY COULD POSSIBLY BE
IN A BETTER POSITION TO MAKE EVALUATIONS, BUT I THINK
MAYBE A MIXED APPROACH OF THE TWO COULD BE HELPFUL.
I DON'T REALLY AGREE WITH THEM BREAKING AWAY ENTIRELY
AND DOING THEIR OWN THING. >> LET ME RUN OVER TO OUR
OTHER DAN, DAN BOYD HERE, ON THIS ONE.
YOUR COLLEAGUE, HAILEY HEINZ, AT THE JOURNAL DID A
GREAT PIECE ON THIS A LITTLE BIT AGO, AND IT HAD A GREAT
QUOTE FROM MS. KORTE FROM THE SCHOOL BOARD, PRETTY
STRONG LANGUAGE THAT SAYS, WE'RE DOING THIS.
AND, IN FACT, WE'RE NOT JUST DOING THIS, WE'RE GOING TO
ASK RIO RANCHO TO JOIN US. IT SOUNDS LIKE THE FIGHT IS
TRULY ON HERE FOR THIS ONE. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
>> I THINK THAT THERE'S SOME FRUSTRATION THAT THE
GOVERNOR DID THESE TEACHER EVALUATIONS THROUGH A RULE
MAKING. THE LEGISLATURE TWICE SHOT
DOWN BILLS THAT WOULD HAVE PUT THIS INTO STATUTE.
AND I THINK WE'VE KIND OF SEEN THIS MOVIE BEFORE,
ALSO, WITH THE A-F GRADING SYSTEM AND PEOPLE'S
CONFUSION OVER WHAT THE METHODOLOGY IS, YOU KNOW,
EXACTLY HOW IT ALL WORKS. SO I THINK THERE'S SOME
PUSH-BACK THAT THIS IS AN UNFUNDED MANDATE.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE POLITICAL STAKES FOR GOVERNOR MARTINEZ
HERE, TO HAVE YOUR LARGEST SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THE STATE
BREAK AWAY, LITERALLY. IT'S GOT TO BE NOT A GOOD
THING TO IMPLEMENT YOUR PLAN STATEWIDE.
>> IT'S GREAT FOR HER. >> YOU HOLD THAT RIGHT
THERE, BECAUSE I'VE GOT TO THINK THERE'S SOMETHING HERE
FOR THE GOVERNOR IF, IN FACT, APS DOES DO THIS.
WHAT HAPPENS THERE IN THE POLITICS?
>> IT'S NOTHING NEW THAT THERE'S BEEN TENSION BETWEEN
THE GOVERNOR AND APS. THIS IS KIND OF AN ONGOING
SOAP OPERA, A LITTLE BIT. BUT CERTAINLY, I THINK, AS
OTHERS HAVE MENTIONED, EDUCATION HAS BECOME KIND OF
ONE OF THE MAIN BATTLE FRONTS WE'RE SEEING HERE
POLITICALLY. THE TEACHERS UNIONS ARE A
STRONG INFLUENCE IN THE STATE, AND THEY'RE, I THINK,
REALLY OPPOSING A LOT OF THIS.
AND SO I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHO IT'S GOING TO FALL, BUT
CLEARLY THERE'S A -- >> ABSOLUTELY.
DAN IS KICKING OVER HERE. >> I THINK THIS IS GREAT
FOR HER. FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S NOT A
SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THE STATE THAT DOESN'T THINK APS IS
THE PROBLEM. YOU GET OUTSIDE OF
ALBUQUERQUE -- >> IS WHAT PROBLEM?
>> YOU LOOK AT ANY ANALYSIS ABOUT OUR SCHOOL EDUCATION,
APS SKEWS IT IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.
YOU TAKE APS OUT AND GO DOWN TO ROSWELL, CARLSBAD, HOBBS,
EVEN PLACES LIKE THAT -- >> BUT WHEN YOU TALK TO
SUPERINTENDENTS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE STATE, MANY OF
THEM LOOK TO WINSTON BROOKS AND THINK HE'S A HERO.
>> I DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE.
THEY OVERWHELMINGLY SHOWED UP IN FAVOR OF HANNA
SKANDERA, THOSE SUPERINTENDENTS FROM OUTSIDE
OF ALBUQUERQUE. I THINK THAT SHE IS GOING TO
WIN THE BATTLE IF IT'S BETWEEN HER AND WINSTON
BROOKS AND APS. I THINK APS SAYING THAT
THEY'RE GOING TO GET RIO RANCHO TO GO OUT AND
EVALUATE THEMSELVES -- LET'S LOOK AT THE FACTS WITH APS.
APS HAS OVER 6,000 TEACHERS IN THEIR SYSTEM, YET ONLY 12
OF THEM ARE ON A PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT
PLAN. THAT MEANS THE PROFESSIONAL
DEVELOPMENT PLAN -- >> YOU MEAN CURRENTLY,
TOTAL? >> TOTAL RIGHT NOW.
THAT MEANS -- AND THAT'S FROM THE LADY FROM THE
SCHOOL BOARD. BASICALLY THAT SAYS, OUT OF
6,000, WE ONLY HAVE 12 THAT NEED TO IMPROVE, THAT NEED
HELP IMPROVING. I FIND THAT HARD TO BELIEVE.
SO NOW YOU'RE GOING TO SAY TO THEM, OKAY, AT THE END OF
THE DAY, WE'RE GOING TO LET YOU SELF EVALUATE?
ANY TIME YOU PICK UP THE JOURNAL ON AN ARTICLE ABOUT
APS, AND THEN THE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR AFTERWARDS, VERY
FEW PEOPLE ARE WRITING IN, IF ANY, SAYING APS IS DOING
A GREAT JOB, WE LOVE WINSTON BROOKS, HE'S GREAT.
HE MAY HAVE THE EAR OF THE TEACHERS UNION, BUT HE
DOESN'T HAVE THE EAR OF THE PARENTS OUT THERE.
AND I THINK YOU SAW THAT IN THE LAST SCHOOL BOARD
ELECTION WHEN TWO CHARTER SCHOOL PARENTS WON
OVERWHELMING ELECTION TO THE SCHOOL BOARD.
>> IT'S NOT SO MUCH ABOUT WINSTON BROOKS, LAURA
SANCHEZ, IT'S ABOUT APS WANTING TO TAKE MATTERS INTO
THEIR OWN HANDS. I'M INTERESTED IN THE
WEIGHING OF THE TEST SCORES. THIS IS INTERESTING TO ME.
MAKING IT 25% OF THE EVALUATION, INSTEAD OF THE
WAY THE STATE WANTS TO DO IT, 35%.
THAT MAY NOT SOUND LIKE MUCH, BUT IN THE MATHEMATICS
OF THINGS, THAT CAN BE HIGHLY IMPACTFUL.
WHY SHOULD WE NOT BELIEVE THEM THAT THAT'S THE BETTER
WAY TO GO FOR THEIR OWN STUDENTS?
>> WHAT SURPRISES ME A LOT ABOUT THIS APPROACH OF
WANTING TO BREAK AWAY IS THAT, I MEAN, IT IS THE
BIGGEST SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THE STATE, YOU WOULD THINK
THAT FIRST AND FOREMOST THE STATE WOULD WANT TO WORK
WITH APS, AND APS WOULD WANT TO WORK WITH THE STATE, THAT
THEY ARE PARTNERS IN WHAT I THINK THE STATE NEEDS, WHICH
IS TO EDUCATE ALL OF THESE STUDENTS COMING THROUGH THE
APS SCHOOL SYSTEM. SO IT SURPRISES ME THAT
THEY'RE APPROACHING WITH, WE'RE JUST GOING TO DO WHAT
WE WANT TO DO ON THIS, INSTEAD OF TRYING TO GO BACK
TO THE TABLE AND COLLABORATE ON THE PROCESS.
>> DOES MR. BROOKS HAVE A CASE?
LET ME INTERRUPT. DOES HE HAVE A CASE,
HOWEVER, THAT THAT WAS TRIED, AND THERE WERE SOME
VERY TOUGH PUBLIC COMMENTS FROM THIS GOVERNOR ABOUT
THIS SUPERINTENDENT WAY BACK WHEN.
>> I REMEMBER. >> WHY SHOULD THE MAN KEEP
GOING AT SOMETHING THAT CLEARLY HE'S NOT GOING TO
GET A RECEPTION ON? >> BECAUSE THAT'S HIS JOB,
AND FRANKLY THAT'S THE SECRETARY'S JOB, AS WELL,
AND THE GOVERNOR'S AGENDA, I THINK.
SO I THINK BOTH NEED TO LEAD BY EXAMPLE.
>> WHO WINS, SOPHIE, IN THAT, WHO WINS THERE?
I MEAN, WHAT IS THE LONG RUN HERE?
>> I THINK IT'S A CHALLENGE.
I THINK TO DAN'S POINT ABOUT, DOES THIS HURT THE
GOVERNOR, DOES THIS HELP THE GOVERNOR, CLEARLY IF APS
FAILS IN THEIR EXPERIMENT -- I MEAN, THEY BREAK FREE AND
IT DOESN'T WORK OUT, WELL, SHE CAN SAY, THE GOVERNOR
CAN SAY, WE WERE RIGHT. >> SURE.
>> AND IF THEY SUCCEED, I'M NOT SURE IT NECESSARILY
HURTS HER, BECAUSE -- >> GOOD POINT.
>> -- BECAUSE EDUCATION IS IMPROVING IN THE STATE.
SO, YOU KNOW, IF IT HAPPENS, IT APPEARS.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I SEE, JUST SORT OF TAKING A
BROAD LOOK AT APS AND AT EDUCATION IN THE STATE, IN
GENERAL, AND PERHAPS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IS THAT I SEE
THAT AS WE CONTINUE TO TRY AND USE METRICS TO JUDGE HOW
OUR STUDENTS ARE DOING, INSTEAD OF LOOKING AT THE
STUDENTS AS INDIVIDUALS AND THE TEACHERS AS INDIVIDUALS,
WE'RE MOVING AWAY FROM -- AND I'M ACTUALLY GOING TO
BRING BACK THE NBA SIDE OF ME FOR A MOMENT.
>> SURE. >> WE'RE MOVING AWAY FROM
WHAT WE KNOW TO BE GOOD MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES.
YOU KNOW, GOOD MANAGEMENT IS NOT IMPOSING DRACONIAN RULES
THAT GOVERN EVERYBODY BECAUSE WE'VE GOT A COUPLE
OF PEOPLE WHO WE CAN'T MANAGE WELL.
WE DEAL WITH THOSE INDIVIDUALS, WHETHER THEY'RE
INDIVIDUAL SCHOOL SYSTEMS, INDIVIDUAL TEACHERS,
INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS. WE DEAL WITH THEM, AND WE
DON'T PUNISH EVERYBODY. AND BECAUSE WE HAVE SLASHED
OUR EDUCATION BUDGETS, WE'VE CUT BACK -- I MEAN, AS MUCH
AS WE SAY WE HAVE BLOATED ADMINISTRATION, WE'RE NOT
DEALING WITH ADMINISTRATION IN THE RIGHT WAY, WE'RE NOT
GIVING THEM THE TOOLS THEY NEED TO MANAGE TEACHERS
APPROPRIATELY. WE'VE DEVELOPED THESE VERY
STRANGE SYSTEMS IN WHICH WE'RE SUPPOSED TO MANAGE
THROUGH THESE TESTS. WE'VE CREATED AN ENVIRONMENT
IN WHICH PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT, TO DAN'S POINT,
REALLY ISN'T HAPPENING IN THE WAY THAT IT SHOULD, AND
OUR CHILDREN ARE THE ONES WHO, AT THE END OF THE DAY,
ARE HARMED BY THAT. NOBODY AT THIS POINT THINKS
THAT NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND WAS GOOD, AND I SEE A LOT OF
NO CHILD LIGHT AT THIS POINT, AND I'D LIKE TO SEE A
LOT LESS. >> HOLD ON, DAN.
I'VE GOT TO GET DAN BOYD IN ON THIS ONE.
IT'S INTERESTING, WHEN I HEAR THIS ARGUMENT, ONE
THING THAT JUMPS OUT AT ME IS PROTECTING PRINCIPALS,
BECAUSE WHAT'S INTERESTING WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT,
THAT'S THE FALL PERSON IN ALL OF THESE SITUATIONS FOR
ALL OF THESE SCHOOLS. IF THE SITUATION IS NOT SET
UP FOR SUCCESS, THAT PRINCIPAL KNOWS THERE'S A
TARGET THERE. WOULD YOU GO WITH THAT?
THERE'S SOMETHING AT STAKE HERE FOR PRINCIPALS THAT'S
VERY DIFFICULT. >> YEAH, AND I THINK WHAT
WE SAW EVEN DURING THE SKANDERA CONFIRMATION
HEARINGS WAS THIS KIND OF DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE
TEACHERS AND THE REFORMERS, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN IN THE
CLASSROOM AND THOSE WHO MAYBE HAVE IDEAS BUT ARE
COMING AT IT FROM A MORE BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE.
AND I THINK THE PRINCIPALS MAYBE KIND OF GET CAUGHT IN
THE MIDDLE THERE A LITTLE BIT.
>> I'LL LEAVE YOU WITH THIS, GENE.
I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH THE SYSTEM, OUR EDUCATION
SYSTEM, NOT JUST IN NEW MEXICO, IS WE KEEP FOCUSING
ON TEACHING AND NOT LEARNING, AND I THINK THAT'S
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE TAKING
OFF, AND THE ONES THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL ARE SUCCESSFUL IN
NEW MEXICO. >> AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT
OWNED BY OUT-OF-STATE ENTITIES.
>> THEY'RE NOT MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN OUR PUBLIC
SCHOOLS, ON THE AVERAGE. >> THERE YOU GO.
ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS BREAK, LEO YORK, FOUNDER AND
CREATOR OF THE INTERNET PROJECT "INHABITANTS OF
BURQUE."