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OBASOHAN: The PATRIOT Act. Does the PATRIOT Act violate American civil liberties? My name is Victor Obasohan and I'm joined again by Professor Faclon. Where do you stand, Professor Falcon, on this dangerous Bush president?
FALCON: I don't believe the PATRIOT Act does anything that previous laws don't do. The PATRIOT Act basically lets law enforcement, the FBI, et cetera, use law enforcement tools that we've been using against organized crime for going on 20 years now. It just extends it to the issue of --
OBASOHAN: Are you calling Americans criminals? We are now the -- John Gotti? We are now members of the Mafia organization and the government needs the RICO Act.
FALCON: Those Americans who are engaged in illegal activities that are organized, that cross state boundaries -- Let's say the RICO Act. You brought that up. John Gotti. Yes, the FBI was able to get John Gotti because of the law enforcement tools that the FBI, Justice Department, were able to use that allowed for wiretaps, surveillance, et cetera. If people aren't involved in illegal behaviors, illegal activities, they don't have to be afraid of the RICO Act. If they're not white-collar criminals, what do they have to be afraid of?
OBASOHAN: Professor Falcon, James Madison would be rolling in his grave to believe that the First Amendment freedom that we enjoy as Americans has been taken away by the PATRIOT Act. You are suggesting that it's okay for the government to --
FALCON: The PATRIOT Act hasn't done anything to harm the basic civil liberties and civil rights of Americans.
OBASOHAN: Oh, basic -- but you are suggesting that the civil liberty -- you are saying basic --
FALCON: I'm saying it hasn't hurt them at all. Not one federal court to date has invalidated any part of the PATRIOT Act. Yet, the same courts for years have been protecting free speech, freedom of association --
OBASOHAN: It doesn't mean they are right. It means they are probably afraid of post 9-11, that's what they are.
FALCON: But your position is that the PATRIOT Act is dangerous; it somehow damages our civil liberties and endangers them, et cetera. I want you to give me a concrete example of how that's happened. I've given you a concrete counter example. The courts to date have upheld the PATRIOT Act.
OBASOHAN: Let me give you a couple. Do you know the government today can find out what I'm reading by visiting my local library or my bookstore? Invading my privacy. Do you know that the government, based on the PATRIOT Act, can find out whom I'm associating with now? No more freedom of assembly. No more freedom of speech.
FALCON: The PATRIOT Act still requires law enforcement agencies, before they access that information, they must still some have probable cause; some reasonable suspicion.
OBASOHAN: Who decides probable cause? The government does.
FALCON: The same people who have been doing it --
OBASOHAN: The government does, you know, probable cause.
FALCON: The same way we've been doing it in society for decades.
OBASOHAN: No, no, no. This is more than that.
FALCON: You have grand juries, you have judges, we have levels of evidence, we require people to establish a case.
OBASOHAN: The attorney general now gets a freer hand to do what he or she must do to violate my own civil rights. If my name --
FALCON: What I'm arguing is that most Americans have nothing to be afraid of.
OBASOHAN: Well, I mean, that's because most Americans are afraid, post 911. But they also believe --
FALCON: Right, so which basically makes my argument.
OBASOHAN: No, that's because Americans --
FALCON: Most Americans want the government to protect them and take care of them.
OBASOHAN: No, Professor Falcon, just because Americans are willing to give up their civil liberties, because they are afraid, does not make it right.
FALCON: I think we're more afraid of being bombed and having planes flown into our buildings from people who hate us --
OBASOHAN: Out of fear.
FALCON: -- than we are afraid of our own government.
OBASOHAN: Now, today, Professor Falcon, you can no longer fly with me on an airplane, because my name is Muhammad. You are now afraid Muhammad may have some kind of a bomb. If I'm on a flight, now you're likely to divert that flight , check it out before the rest of America.
FALCON: And you remember what it was like before the PATRIOT Act was passed? Immediately after 9-11, since I know that's the reference you're making --
OBASOHAN: Yes.
FALCON: -- immediately after 9-11, the skies were empty. I remember seeing empty skies. I remember the first time I saw a plane again. But you know what? Americans are flying again now, because of the increased security. Increased security that the Department of Homeland Security, the PATRIOT Act, the President, have acted to protect us from terrorists, from being attacked. So you know what? That's why Americans are going back to work, going back on vacation, because our government's protecting us.
OBASOHAN: Are you suggesting that Americans are willing to violate the Constitution only because they want to be protected?
FALCON: Oh, let's not make it sound like Americans are the people that are protecting the civil liberties --
OBASOHAN: No, it's that Americans are comfortable with this idea. You are suggesting that, because Americans are --
FALCON: I'm not suggesting it. I'm making a very strong case. The American people are perfectly willing to sacrifice some freedoms, especially since they know it's not affecting them. But people who maybe engaged in criminal illegal terrorist activities, those are the people that have something to be afraid of.
OBASOHAN: You are suggesting --
FALCON: I don't feel like I've lost anything in the last few years.
OBASOHAN: Oh, I have lost plenty. Those of us who come from the Middle East, those of us who come from Saudi Arabia --
FALCON: I'm not afraid that our names are going to end up on some list and they're going to be looking at my internet research or --
OBASOHAN: That's because your name is --
FALCON: -- see what books I'm reading at my house.
OBASOHAN: That is because your name is Dennis Falcon. If my name is Muhammad, I'm suspicious. I mean, the government is looking at me, is checking me out. Can I fly? What association do I belong to? Is that not clearly a violation?
FALCON: And I bet you that for every investigation that is being conducted under the PATRIOT Act of people who, let's say, are of Middle Eastern descent, I bet you just as many judges and others --responsible people -- in fact, applying the law, have dismissed cases, have closed down investigations, because there is nowhere to go. There's no evidence that these people were involved in anything criminal. So in that sense, what's been lost? Nothing has been lost.
OBASOHAN: Professor Falcon, you know that there is a principle in this society, in our legal system that you are proven -- you have to what? Assumed to be what? Innocent until proven guilty. Do you know the PATRIOT Act gives the Attorney General the right to hold Americans in jail without charge based on this PATRIOT Act? Americans, not Saudi Arabians.
FALCON: Well, actually, to be precise, the PATRIOT Act isn't what gives the Attorney General the authority.
OBASOHAN: Oh, this act stating that --
FALCON: The authority you're talking about is the authority of the President as Commander-in-Chief to designate people as enemy combatants. The presidents have had that power since "Commander-in-Chief" was written into the Constitution.
OBASOHAN: This PATRIOT Act, there is a language in there that gives the Attorney General the right to do that.
FALCON: Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the civil war to protect people from the violence that struck throughout the country.
OBASOHAN: It doesn't make it right. Now, do --
FALCON: Mr. Obasohan, the first responsibility of government is to protect the safety and the security of its population. That's what we want from government.
OBASOHAN: To the discrimination of those of us who come from the Middle East? You know those of us who are Americans, who come from the Middle East, we must be subjected to this kind of discrimination just because you want to protect the Falcons.
FALCON: People who immigrate to the United States promise to live according to the laws of the United States before they even go through the immigration process.
OBASOHAN: We are law-abiding people. Those of us -- I mean, we obey the law. Just because our names are Muhammad --
FALCON: The PATRIOT Act is being used to investigate people who come to this country under false pretenses and who come to this country with agendas that are not in the interest of the American people. These are the people we have to worry about.
OBASOHAN: Professor Falcon, I have news for you. It is used to investigate Americans who are already here just because of their background. And that is clearly a violation of our rights.
FALCON: And if you give me a long list of Americans that are being detained, if you tell me that this is anything like what the FBI did in, let's say, in the 1960s, the 1970s, then I'll agree with you. But as far as I know, there are maybe a handful of American citizens that are being analyzed by the PATRIOT Act today.
OBASOHAN: A handful is too much. This Constitution, Professor Falcon, was not meant to protect the rights of the majority exclusively, but the right of the minority as well.
FALCON: But since you're raising the point of Americans being held without being charged --
OBASOHAN: Open Guantanamo.
FALCON: The Supreme Court --
OBASOHAN: Have you let us in Guantanamo?
FALCON: Yes.
OBASOHAN: Let them in.
FALCON: Yes, with the PATRIOT Act intact, still not being challenged by any judge in America --
OBASOHAN: Because Guantanamo is in Cuba.
FALCON: -- and people being held.
OBASOHAN: Open up Cuba.
FALCON: No, but the American citizens you're talking about were being held in South Carolina and North Carolina in a military jail. They are now getting a lawyer. They are now getting attorneys. They are now getting due process. They are now getting --
OBASOHAN: After the fact, Professor Falcon, that they were locked up for years.
FALCON: Unfortunately, sometimes justice in our system works slowly.
OBASOHAN: That is the point we need to protect.
FALCON: Justice works nonetheless. These people will have their day in court. Our system will survive the slight sacrifice --
OBASOHAN: I'm not too sure about that survival. I think this PATRIOT Act represents a danger to this democracy, and you can thank Bush for that. Now, I'll give you another point. Do you know the media itself is now being muscled by this current administration to -- you are familiar with the current story by Newsweek, in which Newsweek reported some kind of story where the Koran was being burned, and they have since apologized and said it was -- not the wrong story -- but whomever confirmed it from the government, originally has now taken back the story. Do you know what the Bush administration is saying right now? That the media should now be -- it should now be a part of its own government.
FALCON: It is not Newsweek that is protecting us from foreign terrorists. It's not the mass media that's protecting us from foreign terrorists. And the mass media doesn't have the responsibility to protect us from terrorists. The Government of the United States and the President, the Justice Department, our military establishment, they have the responsibility. I trust them to use that.
OBASOHAN: Professor Falcon --
FALCON: And if they use it --
OBASOHAN: -- I cannot be sacrificed.
FALCON: -- if they go too far and if they exceed their powers, our system will put them in check.
OBASOHAN: Please do not let me be sacrificed for your own safety just because you want to be secure.
FALCON: But then again, how has your freedom been deprived?
OBASOHAN: Absolutely been deprived. I've been violated at airports just because where I came from, and that is clearly a violation of my own civil rights.
FALCON: Were you allowed to fly? Were you detained?
OBASOHAN: After they looked through all parts of my body, then I was allowed to fly.
FALCON: But they do that to everybody.
OBASOHAN: Not everybody. Those of us who come from the Middle East --
FALCON: They've increased security for everybody.
OBASOHAN: Those of you who are Falcon are never violated. Only those of us who are from the Middle East.
FALCON: Did you land safely?
OBASOHAN: Well, I landed safely. Not because --
FALCON: Thank the government. Thank the increased security. Thank the people who were protecting us at the top, because you know what? We are free and safe to fly in America today, because of the increased security. I'd rather have a longer line at the airport than a plane crashing into a building.
OBASOHAN: Well, it appears you and I will not agree on this. I am -- it appears you will stand on the part of the government, but if we all pay attention to the way John Ashcroft used the PATRIOT Act, I'm sure many of our students will say it should not be renewed. So this is now part of our framework, post 9-11. I guess we'll continue to live with it, and as Americans, we'll continue to debate this as we move forward.