Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
[REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: From Interfaith Alliance, this is State of Belief Radio. I'm
your host, Rev. Welton Gaddy. Since the beginning of this year, anti-gay
hate crimes in famously tolerant and diverse New York City have almost doubled since last
year. They include the cold-blooded slaying of a 32-year-old gay man and attacks that
have happened in broad daylight. It makes us ask, what's going on here? Has organized
religion played any role in helping to create the atmosphere for this kind of hate? And
what role does organized religion have to play in discouraging future violence?
Joining me now is Elder Joseph Tolton, Pastor of Rehoboth Temple Christ Conscious Church
in New York City. He has been with us before; I'm glad to have him back.
Joseph, welcome back to State of Belief Radio! [REV. JOSEPH TOLTON, GUEST]: Welton, it's
a pleasure to be with you, and I appreciate you asking me to be your guest today.
[WG]: Our listeners will remember you being on with us several times to talk about ant-gay
attacks in Uganda. I don't think either of us ever anticipated needing to have that kind
of conversation about New York City. [JT]: Absolutely. No question about it. New
York City is the "Gay Mecca" of the world; it is the home of the international gay rights
movement; and it is astonishing that we are having this conversation. But there is something
about the irony of being attacked at the heart and seat of what would be considered gay social
capital and power that does make some sense. [WG]: Despite the marches protesting the violence,
despite promises of increased police presence, the attacks have continued. I know there were
reports of a man being called a slur and slapped on a midtown street just a few days ago; and
other incidents since the tragic shooting of Mark Carson just a few blocks from what's
considered to be the birthplace of the modern gay rights movement. In your opinion, where
is this violence coming from? [JT]: Absolutely. Well, you're absolutely
right on the number of attacks that have happened. Unfortunately, we've had two attacks reported
last night in the Bronx, and over this current weekend - the Memorial Day weekend, there
were four attacks, most of them happening in central Brooklyn.
I deeply believe that, at its core, what's really driving these attacks is that the perception
and definition and understanding of what it means to be a man and what masculinity is
all about is now being challenged in an incredible way. I think that with Jason Collins coming
out as the first professional athlete to come out and state that he was gay - and I do think
that it's important that he was a man of color who came out, and that he was a basketball
player, which of course is dominated by Black men, and he has performed very well in terms
of his professional technique as a basket ball player - and so now you have a crop of
young men - particularly youth of color, who are not particularly well-educated, socially
disenfranchised, they don't have a lot of political power - and for them, their sense
of authority and power and belonging in the world has always been predicated on this notion
that they defined and embodied masculinity. Now that it is clear that that is not the
case anymore, and that by Jason Collins' coming out, he's really kind of singlehandedly deconstructed
that myth - I think that you now have these young men who are frightened, because they
don't have a particular future; they're frightened because their hold on masculinity, which drove
their identity, is now being taken away from them; and so now these violent attacks is
a result of their lashing out because now they are completely afraid. They have to redefine
what it means, now, to be a man - and I think that that's very threatening.
[WG]: Is that why you said that it was important or significant to recognize that he was a
man of color? [JT]: I think that it is extremely important
to recognize that he was a man of color. For many years, the idea of being gay was associated
with whiteness, and oftentimes, particularly Black gay men would be accused of being gay
because of our association with White people. But as President Obama affirmed marriage equality
in May of 2012, it really began to shift perceptions within the African-American community. And
you've got people like Jay-Z and other stalwarts of the Black community who have come out in
support of LGBT people. And then, with Jason Collins - yes, importantly, an African-American
man, coming out and being very clear about his *** orientation - but at the same time,
also, being very clear about his own sense of machismo - I think it is absolutely important
and relevant that, as a man of color, he has now challenged other men of color around:
what does it really mean to be a man? That is the real question that I believe these
young men are asking themselves, and they are coming up short in their answer. And it
is because of their coming up short that they are now lashing out.
[WG]: I want to stay there for just a minute, because this is a really intriguing insight
- and obviously a very credible insight - on your part. Are these young men - and I understand
what you say about what it does in deconstructing the reality they thought they had a handle
on - do they know what's happening? Or is this coming from somewhere so deep in them
that it just comes out as violence, but they couldn't explain it if you asked?
[JT]: I think that most could not explain it. I think that most couldn't really give
you a real intellectual analysis; but I think that it's striking at something in the very
core of them that really attaches to their subconscious. The idea that there may be other
men on the basketball court who can outdo them in the craft of sportsmanship who might
be gay is something that I do think that they recognize. But in terms of the more subtle
and nuanced issues - I'm not sure that they can necessarily articulate it, but they're
certainly being driven by it. [WG]: Joseph, you and I both know that LGBT
persons have been used as pawns in the culture wars for a long time by the religious right,
with all kinds of hateful rhetoric. Does this play into this situation as well? Is there
a connection there? [JT]: Oh, I think that there absolutely is
a connection. I think that, given the fact that the wedge issue no longer works, broadly
speaking, and it certainly no longer works in the African-American community, I think
that what that speaks to is a certain level of acceptance that our community has come
to. And I think that oftentimes people in our community - we celebrate the fact that
we have opened up so many doors, and that equality seems to be, you know, raining like
a hurricane! But what we have not asked ourselves was: what was driving all of this resistance
in the first place? And so now there's an opportunity for us to have that conversation:
what was really driving all of the hostility in the first place? We cannot avoid having
that conversation. So I think it is an interesting kind of after-effect of what it means to be
beyond the wedge issue - meaning that African-Americans are no longer tribal, because there is a greater
sense of acceptance. But now that there's a greater sense of acceptance, we have to
have that deeper conversation around what was driving all of this resistance to begin
with. [WG]: Well, let me also ask what I think is
a complementary question to that: what responsibility do religious leaders, in particular, have
for creating or helping to create an atmosphere where anti-gay violence seems to be okay?
Because even the death of one gay man hasn't seemed to shock anyone into coming to their
senses. [JT]: Absolutely. You are absolutely right:
religious leaders have a huge role to play here. When President Obama affirmed marriage
equality, I can tell you that there were preachers - particularly, obviously, conservative preachers,
and I'm now going to talk about preachers of color, who made it a point of preaching
incredibly vitriolic sermons against marriage equality. And I do think that their rhetorical
backlash against President Obama and against greater acceptance in our community definitely
incensed people who are unlearned and ignorant. And i do think that the Church has a real,
vital role to play here, and that the Church must stand up, and even if you do not affirm
the full dignity of LGBT people as it relates to our spiritual reconciliation, you must
stand up and say that God is not a God that justifies violence, and that it is a sin to
create these kinds of acts. The Church has a real role to play here.
[WG]: When you're talking with your colleagues in New York City, and you're talking about
what churches ought to be doing in helping prevent hate incidents there, what's the conversation
like? What are you saying to each other? [JT]: Absolutely. When I talk to my more conservative
colleagues, they're very hands-off: "This is not our issue, these are not people from
our community, this is not an issue that we can touch." And the reason that they're afraid
of speaking out against gay violence is that they perceive that if they speak out against
gay violence, that somehow there is a subtle message that they are actually pro-gay. And
it's more important to them to have a clear position of being anti-gay than it is for
them to actually stand up and do the right thing and be counted. And I think that that's
really unfortunate. When I talk to my more liberal and progressive
friends, of course they are outraged and horrified. And I think that you will see a very, very
strong faith-based response coming from progressive people of faith right here in New York City.
I know that Judson Memorial Church is actually bringing together faith leaders tomorrow afternoon
so that we can ideate and strategize on what is a best way for us to use our pulpits and
use our theology and to use the networks of our congregations to push back and to create
messages of tolerance. [WG]: Well, Joseph, knowing that you are a
good model in so many different ways, how are you addressing this in your own ministry?
[JT]: Well, we're certainly preaching from our pulpits, we're certainly having in our
Bible study nights, we're taking time to talk about what does it mean to be safe; what does
it mean to take precautions; so we're doubling down within our community and preparing our
community for what it is that is happening. And then we're trying to quietly reach out
to African-American pastors and have a reasonable offline conversation with them, to try to
pull them into the light, to try to get them to actually stand up. But you must leverage
your personal relationships with people to do that. And then beyond that, we're certainly
going to work very closely with other progressive people of faith in much more external kinds
of responses. [WG]: Have you seen a noticeable change in
how LGBT people are going about their daily lives in the City since all this started?
Is there a sense of fear, or sadness, or some other kind of change you've noticed?
[JT]: There is a real sense of sadness. There is a real sense of, we were just popping the
champagne cork, we were just celebrating, and now here we are faced with this crisis.
And so I think that there is a real sense of sadness, and I have to say that people
are actually really shocked by this in that we did not anticipate this. And I think it's
unfortunate that we didn't anticipate this, because this is a very natural reaction to
the progress that we have made. It's the reaction that happened as it relates to President Obama
being the first African-American who was elected president; there was a natural kind of response
from people who had some racist sentiments. So I think we should not be surprised by this,
and I think that we've got to be encouraged that this is only happening because we have
achieved the victories that we have, and we are an incredibly strong community; God is
on our side; and victory will ultimately be ours. We will prevail and get through this
very difficult period. [WG]: That's a wonderful perspective on it.
I know that you do a lot of important social justice work both here in our nation and around
the world. If we were going to contextualize what we're seeing in New York in the broader
world - and also in the sweep of history - what words would you use to try to do that? To
describe where we are now in the big picture? [JT]: It's a wonderful question. I think that
we are on the precipice of tremendous, tremendous change. I think that here in the West, we
are moving from tolerance to inclusion, and to being fully embraced, totally affirmed
and completely understood. And now we are experiencing the last of what would be the
lion roaring the loudest before he is to be slayed. I think that as we make that progress
in the West, that in other parts of the world - particularly in the Southern hemisphere,
particularly places like Africa and even in Eastern Europe, that they are actually moving
to a place of tolerance. So as we evolve from being tolerated to being embraced and accepted,
they are moving from being rejected to having conversations about what does it mean for
them to be tolerate. So there is an interesting arc that is definitely moving, and our movement
here in the United States is completely connected to the movement in Uganda, which is connected
to the movement in Russia, and we are all moving - and there's a domino effect that
is happening. But the arc of history is absolutely bending toward justice.
[WG]: What an absolutely wonderful description. Elder Joseph Tolton is pastor of Rehoboth
Temple Christ Conscious Church in New York City. He's the director of the Revival Initiative,
a spiritual forum purposed to advance the civil rights of gay and lesbian people in
the African diaspora. Joseph, it's a heartbreaking time, in some
ways, and yet listening to you, I felt inspiration and encouragement - and I just feel so fortunate
to be able to call on you to talk about it, and I wish you all the best in your important
ministry. Keep talking as well as acting, because your words are very helpful to us.
And I'll say what I've said to you in the past when you've spoken to us just before
traveling to Uganda: stay safe. Stay safe, and keep up the good work.
[JT]: God bless you, Welton. It's always a joy to be in conversation with you, and I
appreciate you and the wonderful work that you do, and thank you so much for the opportunity
to be with you yet again.