Tip:
Highlight text to annotate it
X
Ben: I'm Ben Wizner. I'm an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union. I'm talking
to Gavin Hood, the director of the Rendition movie. There are some extremely disturbing
images in the film, including some of the most disturbing images I've seen that depict
waterboarding. In an interview on 60 Minutes George Tenet,
who used to run our CIA, was asked about the CIA's torture policy. His first response is:
"We don't torture." When asked about waterboarding, he said, "We will not discuss specific methods."
When told why harsh interrogation asked why that was necessary, he said, "Because people
have information we need." In almost one paragraph, he managed to deny it, refuse to go into details,
and then admit it. Speaker 2: You're new to this, aren't you?
Speaker 3: It's my first torture. Speaker 2: The United States does not torture.
Ben: What do you make of this torture debate in the United States right now?
Gavin: The answer is that I grew up in South Africa; I was at law school during the 1980s,
at a time when repressive legislation was just being advanced every day. We started
off with sort of 30-day detention, then it was 90-day detention, without right of access
to a lawyer, and then it was ultimately indefinite detention, without right of access to a lawyer,
without having to notify any of the families. Well, guess what rendition is?
Speaker 5: The agency wanted to be able to move suspected terrorists out of the US to
their countries of origin without having to go through the formality of applying for extradition.
That's supposed to be used only under extraordinary circumstances.
Gavin: As a young law student, we would look to the United States Constitution as a document
that we felt was something that South Africa desperately needed, and South Africa now does
have a constitution modeled in many ways on the American Constitution. The great institutions
of this country that have inspired the world and many people wanting to have the kind of
founding documentation that America has, now it's all something we can just knock aside,
or as Gonzales says call these sort of great institutions "quaint": the Geneva Conventions
are quaint. It's deeply disturbing, quite frank-
Ben: As if the Geneva Conventions were written by naive people and not people who had just
lived through the butchery of 50 million human be-
Gavin: Exactly and as if they weren't inspired by great Americans. One thing I find immensely
frustrating is the accusation from the extreme right of anyone who questions torture or the
policy of rendition is somehow being unpatriotic. I want to say, "Excuse me? The defining documents
of this country are the Constitution and the principles by which Americans stand, and who's
unpatriotic?" How dare someone accuse someone who wishes to support the Constitution of
being unpatriotic? Speaker 6: Why don't you ask your boss how
badly he really does want to stick his neck out for a terrorist?
Speaker 7: He might for due process. Maybe I should have a copy of the Constitution sent
to your office. Gavin: What I think the purpose of our film
is it's aimed at a general audience, that is perhaps not familiar with rendition at
all, and it taps those major arguments in order to encourage people to debate, to have
a good argument, to get a little heated. Ben: One of the real ironies for me as a lawyer
who represents rendition victims is that the one place where we've been unable to have
that debate is in a federal courtroom, and that our efforts to litigate these issues,
to bring the victims' stories to courts have been turned back. We have the CIA coming into
courts and saying in private to these judges, "These cases must be dismissed because even
discussing them even airing these allegations will harm national security."
Gavin: I just don't get it. We give murderers and rapists and child abusers their day in
court. What is happening? It's so shocking it's hard to talk about it, to be honest.
Ben: There's obviously enough information about this program out there that you were
able to produce a very realistic motion picture about it. At the same time, millions of people
are going to see this motion picture. It seems like the only people who are being shielded
from this are our legal system. Gavin: Why do you think that is, Ben? I'm
sorry to throw it back at you. Khaled El-Masri for example is someone you represented.
Ben: Absolutely. We have times like these in our history, in
American history, where the administration in power not to protect national security
but to avoid embarrassment, to avoid accountability, gathers more power to itself, and when you
have an administration saying to federal judges, "You don't know what we know. Trust us here.
If you let this case go forward, all kinds of terrible things are going to happen. You
don't want that on you, do you?" There aren't that many judges who have the courage to stand
up for the rule of law. Gavin: But why? This is what I don't understand.
Judges are educated, intellectual people. Why is there this weakness? Why is there this
fear of an executive? We, as human beings, inside, know it's wrong, and it just takes
really looking at the reality of the program. Ben: Well, you know that-
Gavin: To say, "I know it's wrong," and Jake, in a way, represents the audience watching.
He's the observer and ultimately one hopes that the stomach says, "I don't want a part
of this. I'm out." Speaker 8: Give me pie chart. I love pie charts,
anything that outweighs the fact that if you torture one person you create 10, 100, 1,000
new enemies. Ben: Sometimes I think, "How is America going
to emerge from this nightmare?" Maybe we need to follow your example. Maybe we need a truth
and reconciliation commission. Not prosecute everybody but let the truth come out.
Gavin: The truth is a form of punishment for those who have done wrong and speak out and
forever are on record with their shame and those who feel that they have been able to
have that. I would like to see *** Cheney have to apologize to Khaled El-Masri. In a
way if Cheney were prosecuted and yet never had to look El-Masri in the eye, it's almost
worse than if he had to actually look El-Masri in the eye and before the American public
and say, "I am so sorry. I was wrong" and mean it because it's pointless if he doesn't.
Ben: Just to imagine Khaled El-Masri receiving that public vindication which is all that
he's ever sought in this lawsuit and what he's been denied all along. I think that your
film is an important part of making Americans confront the truth about some of our recent
history. Gavin: I'm going to have faith in the 200
years of American constitutional history and the patriotism, frankly, of Americans who
really believe that the constitutional government was established here and it's worth fighting
for, frankly, and when our principles are most under threat, it seems to me that's when
you most have to stand up for your principles. I sound very patriotic, and indeed I am Ben
because this is not an academic exercise for me. It's very real and deeply shocking to
see the apathy of so many citizens of a country that is truly great in terms of the way it's
constitution was originally drafted. Ben: I hope Americans understand just how
precious it is, what we have and what we risk losing, and I think that your film in its
way will be part of that solution. I hope so.
Gavin: Thank you so very much. It was great talking to you, Ben.
Ben: I enjoyed it. Gavin: All good things for your work with
the clients you represent. Ben: Definitely.