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Hi, welcome to Mental Health Matters. I'm Shannon Eliot.
Today we will be hearing from two mental health care providers who deal with mental health
issues themselves.
Lynn Murphy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and the Program Manager at Momentum
for Mental Health in San Jose. In her role, she oversees Crossroads Village, a residential
facility, and Nikki's Place, a rehabilitation program that serves more than 90 people. She
has a Masters Degree in clinical psychology and is an Advanced Level Facilitator for Wellness
Recovery Action Planning.
Rachael Barreto is an Associate Social Worker and clinician at Momentum for Mental Health.
She has a Masters Degree in Social Work with an emphasis in mental health. Rachael is dedicated
to ending stigma, informing our communities, and helping clients improve their quality
of life.
Welcome, Lynn, and welcome, Rachael. Thank you so much for joining me today.
>>Thank you.
>>When were each of you first diagnosed with a mental health issue and what challenges
did you face?
>>I'll go. (Laughs) I first started experiencing depression as a child, and I just remember
thinking that I wasn't quite normal. I knew I was very sad, but I didn't really know what
to do with that. I didn't really feel like people around me were sad, so I felt different.
I first started getting mental health treatment in college. I was just really overwhelmed.
I worked a night job, I went to school full-time, and I had a small child. And it just became
very overwhelming and I always felt like crying. I was really sad and I wasn't sleeping. So
finally I went to the student health center at school and saw a doctor and then started
seeing a therapist there.
>>And I guess I got my first diagnosis also when I was in college. I had seen a couple
therapists before that, especially for family therapy when I was a teen, but it was really
in college when things came to a head.
>>So how has your choice of career been shaped by your own personal experiences with mental
health issues?
>>When I was a kid, I wanted to be a child psychologist. I didn't want anybody else to
feel like I did and I felt like some kids needed a person to talk to and I wanted to
be that person. I also had a niece in foster care so I saw her go through that process
with the foster care system so I knew what I wanted to do. I tried out some other things
that I thought would make more money and then I realized those weren't quite as fun. So
I went back to psychology and just kind of went from there. And after college I realized
mental health was something I really wanted to work in.
>>Do you feel like if you didn't have your personal experiences you would be as drawn
to psychology as you are?
>>I don't. I think it definitely drew me to this field because I was always very interested
in "Why do I feel this way?" and "Why is this going on with this person?" and I definitely
think it played a big role. And also just kind of having that caretaking sense. I just
really wanted to help other people and I think those situations that I went through really
made that happen for me.
>>I think it was a little different for me. I kind of avoided going into psychology and
actually didn't major in psychology in college. I majored in philosophy. But everyone around
me kept telling me that I should do this therapy thing. And I had been to enough therapists
by that point in time that I understood what that was about. So when I finally decided
I needed a career to support myself and my son, it was just kind of a natural way of
going. And I do think that being able to see a therapist all that time did make me understand
what therapy was about, not necessarily what working in mental health was about.
>>So tell me a little bit about that, the differences between therapy and working in
mental health.
>>Umm...
>>A lot of people would think those are the same thing, so I'm curious what the differences
are.
>>Well, I think when I was trained in grad school, I was trained mostly for outpatient
private practice therapy. Somebody comes into your office and sits down and starts talking
to you about whatever is going on. And mental health is very different, especially residential
work. We have the privilege of working in somebody's home. And we see
them 24-7. Although I'm not there 24-7, sometimes it feels like it. But we get a wide variety.
And it's different because I'm not necessarily doing formal one-on-one therapy. And I think
that's very helpful in a lot of ways because it changes the relationship. The boundaries
are a little bit different because the folks that we work with see us in such a different
light. They know so much about us just because we're in their home and they're watching.
They see all of our movements throughout the day. I think that makes a huge difference
in what we do. And we're working with many different people at a time instead of just
seeing somebody once a week for so many weeks. We're seeing people five days a week or six
days a week throughout all of their daily activities. And I think we get a better view
of what's going on with somebody and we form a different kind of relationship.
>>So why did you choose to disclose to your fellow professionals? I know some therapists
or providers are very reluctant to do so if they have a condition because they fear judgment
or stigma. So why did you guys choose to share?
>>I think for me, it was kind of a more natural thing. After I had my second child, I began
to get depressed again. And my boss was just -- he's an incredible man -- he was just very
open and accepting. And so to be able to tell him.... First of all, if I didn't tell him,
he would have told me because he's in mental health and he knew me very well. So being
able to come out and say, "Hey, this is what's going on for me, I may need to take a little
time off" or whatever was just an easy thing. And it's just been easy. And I think Momentum
makes it easy as well. The agency is about reducing stigma and helping people find better
qualities of life. So I've been able to do that for myself in the workplace just through
the philosophy and the beliefs of our agency.
>>Do you think it would be different if you had a different boss?
>>It may have been different, but I think I'm at a point and I have been at a point
for such a long period of time where if I want to help people be able to come into treatment
and I want to reduce stigma, I have to do that myself. Because if I'm keeping a secret
and expecting other people to think there's no stigma --
>>And to open up and divulge their life experiences....
>>Yeah, absolutely. I don't think it works that well.
>>For me, I work with Lynn, and so it was very easy to be open with her about what was
going on. And the group that I work with is very observant and very good at what they
do and can usually tell me when I'm having a bad day even if I don't know it yet. And
will call me on it. They'll say, "You're not doing well today. What do you need to do to
take care of yourself?" And so I think it made it much more natural for me to explain
myself and whatever was going with me in a very safe environment. And it immediately
made me feel closer to all my team members. And it makes me feel now that I can tell them
anything. I'm pretty much an open book at work now.
>>Well I know you both work in that residential treatment facility and that's a lot more intense
environment than say, outpatient therapy as you were mentioning earlier, just one-on-one
therapy. So do you think disclosing actually makes the bond with your teammates stronger
and you guys have each others' backs more than if you guys were to keep personal secrets?
>>I absolutely do. It can be very stressful on any given day and we really rely on each
other as a team for that support and that place where you can vent and de-brief and
talk about things. Or also just joke around. We have a lot of jokes that happen at Crossroads.
We're a very humorous bunch. And I definitely think that makes us closer and more able to
interact with our clients in a better way because we can decompress with our coworkers
and then go back and do our best work with the clients.
>>I also think that if I'm not managing my own mental health well, some of my interactions
are not necessarily going to be the best interactions. So to be able to be open with my colleagues
and especially for them to say, "Hey, Lynn what's going on with you?" allows me a chance
to kind of take a step back and say, "What is going on with me? Maybe I'm not the best
person to do this intervention at this point in time." And I think there's a group of us
and knowing each other well enough to say, "Hmm, let me handle that for you" just because
everybody has different days, regardless of mental health diagnosis or not. We all have
good or bad days. And on those days, we need to make sure that what we're doing is the
right intervention, not just an intervention to do an intervention. And we need to make
sure we are able to be in a relationship with that person in that moment. And I think different
people we work with bring up different things in us, which is really helpful but can also
have that other side of the coin.
>>Knowing that you have the support of your colleagues, do you think that gives you confidence
when you're having an off day to get through your day, to do your job well?
>>Absolutely. I actually rely on my colleagues to say, "Hey, Lynn, bring it back in. This
is what we're focused on." Or all kinds of things. Rachael is really good at that. In
a staff meeting she'll say, "Hey, can we bring it back to the topic?" You know, if I get
off the topic or something. That's definitely helpful, absolutely.
>>Yeah, we've kind of mastered that ability to say, "You're having a hard day. Let me
take over this for you so that you can hold yourself together and do what you need to
do to take care of yourself." So I think we've actually become very good at that. I don't
even have to come in and say I'm having a bad day. Someone will look at me and ask,
"What can I help you with today?" So it's actually really nice.
>>That's pretty incredible.
>>Well we're very supportive, very supportive. I think in life we need support. And if we
can be able to be support for each other, then we can actually hold wellness. And if
we are holding wellness for each other and helping each other recognize where we are
in our wellness, then we get to pass that on to the folks we work with. And it would
be great if we had a completely well workforce. I guess that's what I'm working for. It's
not about diagnosis. It's about being well all the time and living that.
>>And I think that us being able to hold wellness for each other also models that for our clients.
They live in a residential, in a community where we really encourage them to be accountable
for each other and let somebody know they are having an off day if they are or see what's
going on with that person. And so it really does model that for the people around us.
>>Absolutely. Yeah, I agree with that.
>>So how long did each of you keep your conditions to yourselves?
>>I guess specifically in this work, probably for about a year and a half to two years.
I think I tried to keep it to myself and after that it was like, well, this isn't working,
first and foremost. But I had been open before that and I think that it had made it a lot
easier for me. In college, I had a friend and we were both open about our own mental
health struggles. And it wasn't something that was awkward for me then to go forward
with.
>>For me, when I first started, we actually did this exercise where we were all telling
our narratives and things about our past and how we kind of came to where we are now. And
I think in that moment I kind of let everything out. And it was a real experience for me because
it immediately forced me -- I mean, it was optional of course -- but it was really I
think important for me to get that out and to share it with my colleagues and from that
moment on, it was an immediate safe environment. Everybody's reaction was so supportive and
I think it just made me immediately comfortable. So I think this is probably the first work
environment where I've said, "Hey, this is what's going on with me." But now at work,
it's just, "Yeah, I'm having a bad day."
>>So you wouldn't have considered that at previous work environments.
>>Not so much. I've had some different jobs and it just never seemed appropriate or maybe
it was a team that was a little more disjointed. Where we work now in the residential we are
a team and we have to be in order to keep that place running and do what's best for
our clients. And in other places I've worked, it's been more individualized work, so that
makes it a little more difficult because you don't really build that connection.
>>Yeah. And that was specifically a team-building exercise about how did you get into this line
of work and what biases do you bring to the work? And, I mean, it did its job in allowing
us, each person to think about what it is they hold and it really built the team so
that it was incredibly strong.
>>Has anyone every discouraged you from disclosing?
>>Yeah, I would say absolutely, especially in grad school. I was struggling in grad school
and some of the professors and instructors knew I was struggling in grad school. So there
was some discouragement about being open about that. It wasn't overt discouragement. It was
more, I don't even know exactly how to explain it. But it was more like, you need to not
let people know you're having a problem and you need to make sure that your problems never
affect your clients. You know, all that stuff about boundaries, which is very important.
And I absolutely hold those things. But it was almost as if there's a secret and you
have to keep it to be able to be good at your work. And I'm not in that belief system anymore.
>>Yeah, for me, it was probably more my own discouragement and just kind of how people
would perceive it. And for me, it definitely puts you in a vulnerable place, and d not
being sure if I felt like I wanted to be vulnerable with everybody around me. So for me, it was
more of a personal decision. I don't think I've disclosed in a lot of different settings
to really get discouragement, and I've definitely let some teachers know throughout school.
Different assignments kind of require you to pull out all that stuff that you've ever
dealt with. But I think it was more so my own stuff and kind of, how is this going to
affect me? Do I really want everyone to know? And I say this sometimes with clients. But
as soon as you're having a day, then it must be because you're depressed. Or you must be
this way rather than it just being I'm just having a bad day. I'm tired, I'm cranky. I
always worry that maybe as soon as I'm having a bad day that someone is going to say, "Oh
my God, you're not doing well."
>>Right.
>>So what support have you had, either professionally or personally for your decision to disclose?
>>Well, you know, I think the environment we work in is supportive of that. My boss
has been incredibly supportive of that. Momentum holds a certain philosophy about what we believe
about mental health. And I think if we hold that philosophy and we are asking staff people
to take that philosophy in their work with our residents and our clients, we need to
as managers to hold that philosophy for our staff and take that philosophy when we're
working with our staff. So I don't see how I could be anything but supportive. And we
have a very open relationship on the team. And again, I go back to what Rachael said.
It's incredibly important for us to have that close team.
>>Yeah, I would say exactly what Lynn said. The work environment is so supportive that
I feel like I have support pretty much doing anything at work. I feel like they support
me in all my ridiculousness that happens at work.
>>Absolutely. We work to continually build support.
>>Absolutely.
>>I couldn't do the job without the support behind me. It's a very difficult, taxing job.
>>So in your experiences, how common is it for providers to have mental health challenges.
>>I think it's much more common than people would think.
>>I think it's just as common for mental health providers to have challenges as it is for
anybody in the general population.
>>So why do you think there is stigma placed on providers who are struggling with mental
health issues?
>>I think stigma exists regardless. Stigma exists about mental health issues. Stigma
exists still about race. Stigma exists about weight. It exists in just all different areas.
And I think anything that we want to deem as being frightening or different, there becomes
a stigma around that. And I think we have that belief in mental health that the providers
know everything and they've got the answers. So if the providers are also struggling with
their own symptomology or their own illness -- I don't like diagnostic terminology, but
still -- then obviously they don't have the answers and they are not the ones who know
everything. Nobody has all the answers and I definitely don't hold any answers for you
or for anybody else. So I think that helps create that with providers. But mental health
stigma exists and we have to combat it.
>>I would agree with that. And I also think it's that whole perception. If someone is
telling you what to do, it's because they already know how to master that. It's like
somebody who smokes telling you that you shouldn't smoke and you should quite and this is why.
You're like, umm, no, why aren't you doing it? So it's kind of one of those thoughts.
It's like going to a doctor and them being overweight and trying to tell you that you
need to lose weight. I would ask, "What are you doing to lose weight?" But it's kind of
that same idea. You expect that the provider has kind of this great life in a bubble and
things are going well and that's why they are a provider when in actuality, I think
that when people have gone through something, it actually makes them a better provider.
>>So what fears did you have in disclosing your life experiences to colleagues? I know
where you work now is incredibly supportive and that disclosure really helps you guys
be closer, but throughout your career beforehand, what fears existed, if any?
>>I think there were more fears that I placed on myself, somehow that I would be judged
not a good enough provider or have someone say, "Gosh, how can she help anybody else
because look at the mess her life is." And I've gotten over that.
>>I would argue the same thing. I think it's just kind of a judgment. You're worried people
are going to judge you. Or if I come to work and am having a bad day, people would say,
"You're not fit to work today. You need to go home." Just kind of that idea that it's
always going to be around and it's always going to come up.
>>Right, that you're always going to be sick as opposed to the fact you could ever be well.
I don't want everything attributed to one piece of my life. There is so much more about
me. And I guess that's kept me quiet in other places.
>>Yeah, it's kind of funny, because I think I never really thought of myself... I'm totally
aware of all the stuff that I've gone through and my struggles, but I never tend to think
of myself as having a mental illness challenge. And I think I'm worried that other people
will think of it that way. I just kind of think of it as life and this is what I have
to deal with.
>>Yeah, I agree with that.
>>Do you share your life experiences with clients and if so, how is that received?
>>I do sometimes, when it's appropriate to disclose. It's usually actually received really
well because I think when you are in that moment when you're going through something
-- you're feeling depressed, you're feeling anxious -- you really think that nobody understands
how you feel. And you feel like you're the only person and you know, why are you feeling
this way, and it's a really scary place. And I think to disclose to them that you have
been there and you know how that feels and just being able to hold that with them actually
makes them feel safer and more comfortable and just builds that relationship that they
can trust you and value what you're saying because you've been through that. It's hard
to listen to somebody who seems that they've never gone through anything because I question
what life experience they have to help me deal with this. I think that lets clients
know that we're people, too. We've been through things. We struggle with things as well, and
that we can actually relate to them. And that it's ok to talk about it.
>>And I do WRAP, Wellnes Recovery Action Planning. And there's just self-disclosure built into
that. I think it becomes a very natural thing for me. It's part of who I am. It's another
thing about me Sometimes when I am looking at a client who is having a specific challenge
and maybe they are really struggling with a lack of confidence. I say, "Hey, you know
what, I understand where you're coming from. And look at me, I'm sitting in this manager's
chair. You could be here. You have just as much ability to be where I am." But for the
most part I just disclose through WRAP.
>>And I do think that we're a perfect example of you being able to have certain issues and
still deal with them and have a good quality of life. I think for a lot of our clients,
that hope or that aspiration has kind of been gone. So it's nice for them to see people
who are dealing with this, but have still gone on to have good lives or a good quality
of life.
>>Do you find that you can really reach clients who have gone through things very very similar
to what you've gone through?
>>I think it differs. We all have our own perspective on what we've gone through. Even
though we may have similar diagnosis or similar circumstances, our reactions may not be the
same. So I don't know how similar. I mean, the human condition is similar from human
to human. In as much as that's true, then I suppose it can be helpful, but I don't presume
that I understand or know what this person is feeling or experiencing in this moment
just because I've experienced something.
>>Yeah, I would agree. You would like to think that when you're disclosing something like
this it's helpful for the person. But at the end of the day, we really don't know.
Well thank you so much, Lynn. And thank you, Rachael for joining me today. Best of luck
to both of you.
>>Thank you so much.
>>To learn more about Momentum for Mental Health, visit: www.momentumformentalhealth.org
Marsha Linehan, an esteemed psychologist and original developer of Dialectical Behavior
Therapy, disclosed her lifelong struggle with Borderline Personality Disorder in 2011. Read
about it in the New York Times piece by Benedict Carey titled "EXPERT ON MENTAL ILLNESS REVEALS
HER OWN FIGHT" at www.nytimes.com.
BREAKING THE SILENCE: MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS DISCLOSE THEIR PERSONAL AND FAMILY EXPERIENCES
OF MENTAL ILLNESS is an e-book that reveals the deep commonalities between patients and
professionals. Read a groundbreaking collection of moving and inspiring stories of serious
mental disorders from trainees, clinicians, and scientists in the mental health profession,
You can find it at http://books.google.com.
Thank you so much for watching. We'll see you next time.