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DUKE UNIVERSITY'S MAC McCORKLE IS HERE TO DISCUSS HB2.
MAC, I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE ARE TOLD THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE IF THEY
SUPPORT HB2 AND THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE IF THEY OPPOSE HB2.
WHAT -- HOW DID THIS BILL GET SO HOT?
>> WELL, IT -- IT -- IT HITS ON THE SOCIAL ISSUE FRONT, WHICH
IS -- WHICH IS HOT IN NORTH CAROLINA.
IT'S BEEN HOT SINCE JESSE HELMS AND BEFORE JESSE HELMS AND
PROBABLY WILL REMAIN THAT WAY.
BUT IT -- IT ALSO IS AN ISSUE THAT THE INTERESTING THING
POLITICALLY IS THERE'S NOWHERE TO HIDE ON THIS.
YOU'RE EITHER FOR IT OR YOU'RE AGAINST IT.
AND THERE'S NO KIND OF MIDDLE GROUND ON IT AT ALL.
IT ALSO REFLECTS THE -- WHAT POLITICAL SCIENCE CALLS THE
POLARIZATION THAT'S GOING IN THE ELECTORATE.
YOU'RE EITHER LIBERAL OR CONSERVATIVE, REPUBLICAN OR
DEMOCRAT, AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE -- THERE ARE ONLY TWO
CHOICES THESE DAYS, IT SEEMS TO BE.
>> Kelly: HOW, UM -- HOW DEEPLY ARE THE HEELS DUG IN ON THIS
ISSUE ON BOTH SIDES?
THE CITY OF CHARLOTTE AND ALL THOSE SUPPORTERS WHO SAY THIS
BILL MAKES SENSE.
IT'S PROGRESSIVE.
THE CONSERVATIVES IN RALEIGH WHO, BY VETO-PROOF MAJORITIES,
PASSED THIS BILL AND SAID NO CHANGES TO SPEAK OF.
MAYBE SOME TWEAKS HERE AND THERE.
>> OBVIOUSLY, BOTH SIDES ARE CREDIBLY DUG IN, ESPECIALLY ON
THE LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE EXTREMES.
THE PROBLEM FOR GOVERNOR McCRORY, THOUGH, IS FOR THOSE
FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT DUG IN.
THE IMPRESSION THAT THE BILL IS LEAVING, AND I MEAN THE
IMPRESSION, NOT THE SPECIFICS OF IT.
THE IMPRESSION IS THAT IT'S BAD FOR NORTH CAROLINA, AND THAT'S
WHY YOU'RE SEEING IT MOVE IN THE POLLS FROM EVEN SUPPORT FOR THE
BILL AT FIRST TO -- TO OPPOSITION.
THERE'S JUST A SENSE THAT SO MUCH WAS LAID ON IN THIS BILL
THAT WAS EXTRANEOUS TO THE -- TO THE ISSUE GOING ON IN CHARLOTTE,
LOTS OF ISSUES ABOUT DISCRIMINATION GOING AROUND,
THAT IT'S BECOME A NET NEGATIVE FOR THE REPUBLICANS AND GOVERNOR
McCRORY.
REGARDLESS OF THE PARTICULAR ISSUE THAT IT STARTED OUT TO BE,
IT'S GROWN INTO A LARGER ISSUE ABOUT NORTH CAROLINA'S IMAGE AND
REPUTATION.
>> Kelly: AS SOMEONE WHO STUDIES GOVERNMENT POLICY, STRATEGY, HOW
DEEPLY DO NORTH CAROLINIANS OR AMERICANS LOOK INTO A PIECE OF
STATE LEGISLATION AND PICK IT APART, BECAUSE THIS BILL IS
BRANDED AS THE BATHROOM BILL, BUT IT'S GOT THREE OR FOUR
DISTINCT PARTS.
ANY NUMBER OF THEM ARE WORTHY OF A HEAVY POLICY DEBATE.
>> RIGHT, RIGHT.
IT -- IT'S -- IT'S THE BATHROOM BILL PLUS.
I THINK THAT WHAT HAPPENED HERE, AND PROBABLY GOVERNOR McCRORY
WISHED IT HADN'T HAPPENED, IS THAT IT GOT BEYOND THE BATHROOM
BILL.
THE ATTACKS ON LOCAL GOVERNMENTS' PREROGATIVES.
PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS, BUT THEY KNOW THAT -- I THINK
ENOUGH PEOPLE KNOW, WOW, LOCAL GOVERNMENT -- STATE GOVERNMENT
JUST SAID LOCAL GOVERNMENT CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT NOW.
YOU KNOW, REALLY LIMITED WHAT LOCAL GOVERNMENT COULD DO IN THE
AREA OF EMPLOYMENT, IN THE AREA OF DISCRIMINATION.
AND IN A SPECIAL SESSION, DOING THAT WITHOUT ANY -- I THINK
PEOPLE ALSO HAVE THE SENSE THIS WAS RUSHED UP.
AND PEOPLE, WITHOUT KNOWING SPECIFICS, WHEN THEY HEAR A
BILL'S BEEN RUSHED THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE, THAT USUALLY MEANS
SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH IT IN PEOPLE'S IMPRESSIONS.
>> Kelly: CHARLOTTE CITY LEADERS, YOU CAN'T SPEAK FOR
THEM, BUT THEY CHOSE TO FORWARD A BILL THAT WOULD FUNDAMENTALLY
CHANGE SOME CITY STATUTES AND RIPPLE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, AS
IT'S TURNED OUT.
THEY DID IT DURING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR.
I DON'T BELIEVE POLITICS -- ANYTHING IN POLITICS IS AN
ACCIDENT.
SO IT ROLLS OUT, AND WE CALL A SPECIAL SESSION.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT IT'S 2016 WHEN THIS IS HAPPENING WHEN IT
COULD HAVE HAPPENED IN 2017 OR '18?
>> SURE.
OH, THE NATIONAL FOCUS IS SO MUCH BRIGHTER, AS YOU CAN SEE.
I MEAN, GOVERNOR -- I MEAN, PRESIDENT OBAMA IS TALKING ABOUT
THIS BILL IN LONDON.
SO -- BUT I THINK THAT WHAT THE CHARLOTTE POLITICS WAS THAT IT
REALLY CAME OUT OF THE '15 MAYORAL RACE AND STARTED TO
MOVE.
THE ONE THING I SAY TO PEOPLE IS THAT THE INTERESTING THING IS
HOW PROGRESSIVE, HOW FAR, THE CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE WENT.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IN HOUSTON, THIS COULDN'T -- COULDN'T PASS A
REFERENDUM.
MIGHT NOT EVEN PASS A REFERENDUM IN CHARLOTTE BEFORE ALL THIS
CONTROVERSY.
BUT THIS WAS QUITE A BIG STEP FOR THE CHARLOTTE CITY COUNCIL
TO TAKE AND ONE THAT DOESN'T REFLECT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE
REST OF THE SOUTH.
SO IT WAS A VERY -- IT'S VERY NORTH CAROLINA FOR CHARLOTTE TO
HAVE DONE THIS AND NOW TO BE THIS REACTION IN THE
LEGISLATURE.
IT JUST SHOWS WHAT A DIVIDED STATE WE ARE.
>> Kelly: THE POWER OF BRANDING THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION AND
WHAT IT MEANS, DOES BRANDING MAKE THE DIFFERENCE WHEN YOU
LOOK AT A POLL, AND SOME POLLS SAY THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE OPPOSE
IT GREATLY, AND ANOTHER POLL SAYS, WELL, THIS GROUP OF SOCIAL
CONSERVATIVES REALLY SUPPORT HB2.
IS IT BRANDING?
>> IT -- WELL, IT IS BRANDING IN THIS CASE, IN THIS RESPECT.
SOMETIMES ISSUES ARE JUST ISSUES.
AND SOMETIMES IT'S JUST ABOUT THE BATHROOM PRIVACY, IS WHAT
THE REPUBLICANS WANT TO SAY.
IT GREW WAY BEYOND THAT.
AND IT'S A REFLECTION NOW -- THE PROBLEM FOR GOVERNOR McCRORY IS,
REALLY, IT'S A REFLECTION ON HIS LEADERSHIP.
YOU KNOW, THE CAROLINA COMEBACK.
HIS WHOLE STORY WAS ABOUT HOW WE'RE GONNA GET MORE JOBS IN
HERE AND BRING ALL THESE BUSINESSES IN AND PRO NBA AND
PRO NCAA.
AND NOW ALL OF THAT SEEMS TO CRASH WITH THE REALITY OF WHAT'S
GOING ON IN HB2.
I DON'T KNOW THAT IT MATTERS SO MUCH FOR THE LEGISLATURE.
I THINK IT MATTERS, THOUGH, THAT IT'S A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR AND A
GUBERNATORIAL YEAR, WHERE GOVERNOR McCRORY'S ALREADY IN A
TIGHT RACE.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE'S NOT GOING TO GET SUPPORT.
HE DOES HAVE SUPPORT FOR THIS.
THERE IS STRONG SUPPORT FOR HIS POSITION.
IT'S JUST THAT THERE'S EQUALLY STRONG SUPPORT AGAINST IT.
AND THEN AGAIN, WHEN YOU HAVE BUSINESSES SAYING WE DON'T WANT
TO DO BUSINESS WITH NORTH CAROLINA, IT'S JUST A BAD
MESSAGE FOR SOMEBODY WHOSE CAMPAIGN MESSAGE THEME IS THE
CAROLINA COMEBACK.
>> Kelly: WELL, EVERYONE'S TARGETING THE GOVERNOR.
THERE'S A BIG GUBERNATORIAL RACE GOING ON.
THE GOVERNOR'S DOWN FIVE, SIX POINTS LAST POLL I SAW.
THIS BILL -- WHETHER OR NOT -- WHO KNOWS WITH ANY GIVEN DAY.
HOWEVER, YOU LOOK AT THE VOTE TOTALS.
THEY WERE VETO-PROOF.
EVEN IF THE GOVERNOR PUTS HIS SIGNATURE ON IT OR HE VETOES
THIS BILL TWO WEEKS, THREE WEEKS AGO AND HE PUNTS IT BACK HERE,
I'VE SEEN A VETO GETTING -- GOT -- I'VE SEEN A VETO GET
OVERRIDDEN HERE.
>> OH, IT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN OVERRIDDEN.
YEAH, YEAH.
AND I'M SURE THAT WAS PART OF THE GOVERNOR'S CALCULATION.
HE'S IN A HARD SPOT.
IT'S A VERY TOUGH SPOT.
BUT IN RETROSPECT, IT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN A STRONGER MOVE
FOR HIM TO HAVE VETOED AND MAYBE TRIED TO GET INTO A SHORT
SESSION AND GOT A BIT -- A BIT OF A DIFFERENT BILL.
BUT HE -- I GRANT YOU THAT IT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN
VETO-PROOF -- I MEAN, THAT HIS VETO WOULD HAVE BEEN OVERRIDDEN.
>> Kelly: LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS POLICY, THE BATHROOM BILL.
CAN YOU CRAFT A STATE LAW THAT RESPECTS TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE,
IF THAT'S THE AIM OF THE CITY ORDINANCE, AND LETS THEM FEEL
MOST SECURE AND SAFE, WHILE KEEPING OUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO
WOULD USE THIS LAW TO EXPLOIT, IN THIS CASE, YOUNG WOMEN OR
FEMALES?
I'VE NOT HEARD IF THE LAW COULD BE CHANGED TO PROTECT A CLASS
WHILE KEEPING OUT OTHER PEOPLE WHO WOULD ABUSE IT, I SHOULD
SAY.
>> I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT -- THAT THE LEGISLATION
ASSUMED THAT YOU COULD ESTABLISH THESE HARDENED CATEGORIES, UH,
THAT -- DETERMINED COMPLETELY BY YOUR ANATOMY OR BY YOUR -- YOUR
BIRTH CERTIFICATE, AND THAT PROBABLY WAS A FAULTY
ASSUMPTION.
WE'RE GOING TO BE EXPERIENCING THESE KIND OF ISSUES GOING
FORWARD, AND I DON'T HAVE ALL -- ALL THE ANSWERS.
BUT I THINK THAT PROBABLY THE BILL IS JUST SO INFLEXIBLY
WRITTEN THAT THAT'S THE REAL PROBLEM WITH IT.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SENSE ABOUT IT.
EVEN IF THEY'RE DISCOMFORTED WITH THE LIBERAL POSITION, THE
CONSERVATIVE POSITION SIMPLY SEEMS TOO INFLEXIBLE AND NOT IN
KEEPING WITH THE REALITY, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE ONE OF THE
ISSUES IS -- IS OTHER -- AS A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE POINTED OUT,
THERE ARE NO ENFORCEMENT PROVISIONS TO THIS BILL.
SO WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN TO SAY THAT HERE IS HOW YOU HAVE TO
GO TO THE BATHROOM IF THERE'S NO ENFORCEMENT BEHIND IT?
>> Kelly: I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT BATHROOM LAW.
ARE THERE CURRENT BATHROOM ORDINANCES SO IF YOU WALKED IN A
WOMEN'S RESTROOM AND YOU WERE PROUDLY MAC McCORKLE, WOULD YOU
GET IN TROUBLE?
WHAT HAPPENS?
>> IT'S -- IT'S COMPLICATED.
I'M NOT A TOTAL EXPERT.
BUT, APPARENTLY, THERE WAS SOME KIND OF CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE THAT
THE -- THAT THE CITY COUNCIL ELIMINATED THAT DID ESTABLISH
THAT YOU -- THE LAW ABOUT THAT.
BUT, AGAIN, THERE ARE NO ENFORCEMENT PROVISIONS.
AND BOTH SIDES CAN THINK OF PARADE OF HORRIBLES HERE WHEN
YOU'RE DEALING -- YOU KNOW THE STORY ABOUT WE NEED TO PROTECT
WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
WELL, YOU CAN THINK OF HORRIBLES ON BOTH SIDES THAT PROBABLY HAVE
VERY LITTLE TOUCH WITH -- WITH REALITY.
AGAIN, THOUGH, I DO THINK THAT IF THIS HAD JUST BEEN A BATHROOM
BILL, IF THEY HAD JUST GONE INTO SESSION AND SAID THAT CHARLOTTE
ORDINANCE, IT'S ELIMINATED.
IT -- IT'S NO LONGER EFFECTIVE.
I DON'T KNOW THAT WE WOULD HAVE HAD AS MUCH NATIONAL FUROR.
BUT WHEN YOU ADD ALL OF THE OTHER ELEMENTS, AGAIN, THAT
PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW ABOUT BUT THAT GOT WRITTEN
ABOUT, THEN PEOPLE STARTED TO SUSPECT, AGAIN, DOING IT IN THE
SPECIAL SESSION, TOO, THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG.
>> ANTIDISCRIMINATION LAWSUITS, THE LIVING WAGE, YOU CAN'T RAISE
THE MINIMUM WAGE.
>> LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ARE REALLY HANDCUFFED.
YOU KNOW, POLITICALLY, WHEN YOU SEE THAT, YOU HAVE TO SAY, WOW,
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO -- IT'S -- YOU CAN'T HANDCUFF LOCAL
GOVERNMENT THAT MUCH.
SO, AGAIN, I THINK PEOPLE'S COMMON SENSE SAID THIS SEEMED
LIKE A DESPERATION MOVE.
AND THERE ARE A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE WHO SAID,
WELL, I -- I DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT THE CHARLOTTE CITY COUNCIL
DID, BUT LET'S THROW THEM OUT.
LET DEMOCRACY WORK IN A LOCAL WAY RATHER THAN TRYING TO --
IT'S IRONIC THAT WE'RE CENTRALIZING ALL THESE THINGS IN
RALEIGH NOW.
>> Kelly: COULD ARGUING OVER HOUSE BILL 2 AFFECT ANY OTHER
STATE ISSUES OR DISTRACT THEM FROM, SAY, TEACHER PAY RAISES OR
THE BUDGET DEBATE OR ANYTHING, OR DO YOU SEE IT BEING SIMPLY
ISOLATED, UM, AND WE'LL LET THE PROTESTORS ON BOTH SIDES STEP
FORWARD AND SUPPORT HB2?
>> THAT -- WELL, THAT -- OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S WHAT I THINK
GOVERNOR McCRORY AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HOPE.
IT -- THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME SPILLOVER EFFECT, BUT I THINK
THAT THE MAIN PROBLEM POLITICALLY IS FOR THE
REPUBLICANS AND ESPECIALLY FOR GOVERNOR McCRORY, THEY HAVE A
POSITIVE -- THEY HAD A POSITIVE MESSAGE ABOUT THE CAROLINA
COMEBACK.
AND THIS JUST SEEMS TO COLLIDE WITH THAT.
I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S DEADLY, BUT IT CERTAINLY PRESENTS A
PROBLEM THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
SOMETHING IS OUT THERE THAT'S SAYING THEIR MESSAGE IS NOT
CORRECT, AND THAT'S A TOUGH ONE FOR AN INCUMBENT GOVERNOR IN A
TOUGH RACE TO DEAL WITH.
>> Kelly: MAC, WE'LL STOP RIGHT THERE.
MAC McCORKLE, DUKE UNIVERSITY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON
"LEGISLATIVE WEEK IN REVIEW."
>> THANKS, YEP.