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I'm joined today by James white he is a current you see see pastor
and he is located in the gold tree Oklahoma
church so let's start first James what is the UC see what denomination is that
see United Church a crisis is a combination
a the merger took my summer early sixties between the evangelical Reformed
Church congregational Christian Church
I they're very liberal and
some are partnership are
so to speak with the Cyprus in Christ your
or Dana one you can be a minister in the other
and and vice versa arm it seems here lately a lot at the church growth has
come because a
a a MCC churches that left the Metropolitan Community Church in join
the UTC
a but okay so what the heck not games
bloodless that think it does is what it is but I why don't I wanna get right
into kinda year
situation so you're gonna be stepping down as pastor
the goal tree oklahoma you see see church and the issue you have a problem
with is same-sex marriage so
outline what is the church's position and what is your position that is so
different that it's causing you to resign
well actually at the local level they agree with me
arm but aren't the problem is that they don't wanna leave the denomination
they're great people but so I think what did so let me rephrase that because I
wanna
walk people through it but churches in the UC see
recognize and consoling nyse: same-sex marriage and that's what you disagree
with right I just wanna be totally explicit so our audience my way over
tabs about
absolutely I I first became a part of the UGC back in 2000
8 and was driving down to oklahoma city I was actually a part in a church that's
mostly gay and lesbian
for a while and then once I graduated seminary
from I had to find a preaching position are
but the more I
the more I personal study I did on my own but the more I realized that
what I was what I had been too hot in seminary in what I had learned to the
denomination
wasn't Acura so explain that so what what is your view
same-sex marriage I arm
I define marriage as between a man and woman I comes
are from the Bible are what I have discovered over
dealing with people through in the denomination is that
the more that they value experience over scripture the more liberal they are
and the more that they value the Bible over
experience then the more are conservative they tend to be
now with someone who has studied this in his is a a
a student ups %uh knowledge so to speak
I wouldn't tell you that if people base their lives and their points abuse
more on their experience and their thinking
then on what a book purportedly written by God tells them
made right that's more what we should be listening to maybe experience
and logic tell us more about how we should treat
gay and lesbian couples then a book clearly written by humans but supposedly
written by God tells us maybe maybe we could learn from that
well let me make one thing
clear in this is probably where some conservatives would disagree with me on
is that I don't think this is being
in salvation I think there are people who
are are gay and lesbian who are genuinely saved
that's why I will see our who I was he on the other side okay
and in the thing about like my experience with cathedral
hope is that these people are genuinely wanting to do
the right thing a they do reach out to people at the
gay pride event and there are thousands of people there
and it was really disheartening you know it's like
the Sunday night service after that weekend would take place
and you might have three or four new people show up when you
literally handed out thousands of fliers and buttons and
you had people participate in this parade either on Friday or Saturday
and the inlet very few people showed up so yet that could be tough but
West salvation other people a cathedral hope at all
yeah and I'm not either but but salvation aside just for a second
it sounds like your opposition to gay marriage lesbian marriage
is primarily Bible based in other words you didn't mention that one
%uh anti-gay argument which is it's not natural
you didn't mention the it doesn't lead to reproduction you didn't mention well
it's a legal redefinition and I don't like that
correct me if I'm wrong but your opposition is mostly bible-based is that
right
well I would say that and here's the thing that really kinda through a red
light up for me
is that a lot of the people I spoke with that are gay and lesbian
I'll whenever I would mention things like
bigamy polygamy and and other things they never really wanted to draw the
line there they never really want to say well that stuff is bad
arm what I'm hearing now
are is the idea of marriage equality for everybody
well after have some kind of limits because if you don't then
then that what do you defining marriage as well that's interesting because and
again you and I are talking
we're not having a legal discussion obviously religious texts have no
bearing at all
on on legal structure in this country whether you agree with that are not with
me work we're leaving that out for this conversation but let's address income
the point of view of the Bible
the Bible talks about man with multiple lives men with multiple wives and
concubines
et cetera et cetera sold out is it not arbitrary to say that because if the
Bible
you are against gay marriage for example
although the Bible talks about multiple wives concubines et cetera talks about
stoning year
it did that your wife if she's not a *** on on the wedding day et cetera
is it all just kind of cherry-picking
well the thing about that is I am glad you brought it up is that
you really can't find one example other a healthy relationship work where
somebody did have multiple wives I think
are the Bible mentions in first grade dance that
we have the altar as an example for us
and really if you think about it could you really have a
two three four wives in love each one of them
equally and the same I don't think you can
so let me use that that I like that I like that you're applying that question
which is let's just think about this logically and say can you really be
married 24 people and love them equally in have that type of relationship in
your thinking the answer is No
what is it about a relationship between one man and one woman
I'm sorry between two men or between two women
where you couldn't have the same type up love that you have
in a male-female relationship applying just the kind of
casual logic test that you apply just a second ago
welts to add something further to the designer marriage
I think the thing that makes marriage so great is that your
you're married to somebody who thinks differently YouTube by
during the last thirty plus years are my wife has side
challenged me stretched me are really
your wife and I will reg do you I would say at Wal
just when I was when I first got married
I was very selfish and very self-centered
and I did not even realize how much so
during the time we've been married I've learned how to
care for others in a way that
yeah by James what you're dealing with what you're saying James it by May
you're going down an incredibly misogynistic path which is suggesting
that only women can teach men how to care for others
you're also using very anecdotal evidence which has as a student who is
someone who is that an educated person
I'm sure you know that anecdotal evidence is not really what we should
talk about the to discuss broad policy or ideas
it seems incredibly offensive to so many men to say that women are what is needed
to learn to care about others all I think
it goes two ways I think there are things that she's learned about life for
me as well
the I'm contrasting that to to manner to women because
im im least in my opinion its a
mirror image your your with somebody who
does think like you do and is it really going to challenge you
on certain things I just think that this is a very silly argument though James
because the idea that
you think the same as anyone else who is the same gender is you and therefore you
wouldn't learn
from from marriage I'm I'm honestly at
it's an interest its I'm interested in this idea because I've never heard it
before
but it's not a very strong argument is
up well we'll have to agree to disagree have now on I okay I i kno
mmm me personally by life is very fulfilling
good are and now if you were attracted to men if you were born just being
attracted to men
would you not be fulfilled if you were able to marry the man that you love
hypothetically right would you would you not find fulfillment in that
mezzo interest question I'll probably
honestly I don't know drive to I'm to
so hard for you to imagine not being straight because you were born straight
correct
um yeah I I'm not gonna completely dismiss the science that's
abt think you're referring to but I think there needs to be more done
as far as whether or not you can be *** gay I think there needs to be more
scientific research
I'm also like my questions you want to have to say did you ever decide James
you when you were I don't know 7 to say okay well right now I'm completely
neutral between being attracted to men or women
I think I'm going to choose to be attracted to women
you never had that revelation did you
I well most my time up until the age of 10 hours
either playing basketball footballer kick balls are that's fair perfectly
fair so at 10
is when is that when you made the decision you could have gone either way
you could have been into guys you could have been into girls
and you said it well I'm ten I played enough kickball now I'm gonna choose to
be in two women is that how it went for you
or did you at some point is realize you're attracted to women
that's an interesting question who's the actual first girl I was attracted to
probably six great I know a girl named Shannon who had are
failed a grade and so she was all a bit more arm
she does it physically mature that some the role
and a so you retracted you were attracted your classmates *** and
that was
8 that was a physical reaction you had you never said
I'm going to decide today to like my classmates *** that just happened
okay I i think i I see that you're kinda
putting up some obstacles but I think the audience kinda gets where I'm going
with us
we are at a time James I wish you the best the block I'm sorry
that your opposition to marriage equality is leaving you to leave your
position
I hope you find a new position at you thank you for joining us
thank you much have a great day