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>> Roger: Welcome to all of you on a very special day
with the helicopters over us, and so it's very nice of you
to come along and to, to this talk.
Angels, [assumed spelling] pouty, dragons
and fairies a biological dissection.
Well I'm a biologist, and you probably all know what angels,
pouty, dragons and fairies are.
We've been given a great boost in knowing what they look
like from representation of art.
Visual arts have the advantage
of making supernatural objects appear real.
They could be put in a context that we understand
and we can identify these objects.
Angels, pouty, dragons
and fairies are all portrayed as [inaudible] wings.
That's not exclusive.
Pouty are always winged, but there are many kinds of angels
and dragons and fairies that do not possess wings.
So the question is, what kinds
of wings do these creatures have?
How do they arise?
And how are they used?
Let's begin with angels.
The series of pictures of angels and I want to start off
on the right hand corner with the angel
of the north by Gorman.
And this is a very modern representation of course,
and the thing that we notice here is
that there is a single wing arm on each side.
Now, in birds, the wings have developed from the forearms.
But in angels, we have wings and forearms.
And we can see in all of the illustrations
that we have both wings and forearms,
and the wings are those of birds.
Usually, not exclusively, the wings are white.
And of course the color of the wings and the shape
of the wings, and the fact that they are bird wings,
probably result from a patron making a request of the painter
in this Renaissance art.
Pouty are very characteristic,
chubby little chaps with small wings.
You can see that the wing inserted roughly
at the shoulder blade.
And they can fly up and look down on us, and do in pictures,
and they also apparently grow up a little bit
to produce adolescent pouty which we recognize
from such statutes in Piccadilly Circus.
Dragons. Dragons if portrayed in art are a little confused
in that the great majority of them have four legs and wings.
The wings vary very much in their shape
and their characteristics.
But perhaps the best known dragon is
that of one fighting St. George by [inaudible].
And here we have a wing that is clearly bat like.
Interestingly this is also a wyvern.
And wyverns are dragons which have the four limbs converted
to wings for use in flight.
So they have walking limbs and they have wings for flight.
So they're kind of interesting creatures and clearly
in this case with a bat like wing.
Fairies have inset wings.
And there's an example here where the wings are those
of a dancer fly, although there's a slight error
in that they are irregular in size and in dancer flies,
the wings are exactly equal in size.
But here we have a marvelous picture.
One of the [inaudible] fairy pictures
with which you're probably quite familiar.
Published in 1917 at a rather desperate time.
They created a diversion under a great deal of pleasure
because this was the first time we've seen photographs
of fairies, and the fairies you can see have very clearly
butterfly wings.
So as evidence suggests that angels
and pouty have bird wings, dragons have bat like wings,
and fairies have insect wings,
question comes do they use flap in flight?
Now, before we answer that question we need
to learn a little bit more about flap in flight.
Beginning with birds, and we know that the wing is flapped up
and down in birds, by means of two major muscles,
pectoralis major here and supracoracoideus,
which has a little tendon running from it
that enables an insertion on the upper part of the humorous
and lifted up, so we can move the wing up and down.
And you know of these two muscles,
because here's a breast of chicken, okay.
And here is the large pectoralis major
and sitting here is supracoracoideus,
with its tendon.
Now, that tendon has been cut, and that runs
out through the shoulder joint and lifts the wing.
So when you are having your turkey,
or when you're having chicken, you now know
that that little white strip
which you didn't know what it was for, is in fact the tendon
of supracoracoideus and lifts the wing up.
Now, that's moving the wing up and down.
But of course that is not going to result in flight,
because every action has an equal and opposite reaction
and that is just going to cause us to move up
and down, up and down.
To be able to fly, we must also orientate the wing and be able
to move the wing forwards and backwards.
So tustic, that is an adaptation that's been involved in birds,
it's exactly the same in insects where we find the same movement.
But I wonder if some of these mythological creatures can use
these devices.
Inset flight muscles come in two broad groupings.
Primitive insets have muscles attached to the wing base,
they have other muscles which allow the orientation
of the wing and the movement fore and aft of the wing.
But advanced insects use indirect flight muscles.
These are muscles that cause a distortion in the thorax.
And it's a distortion in the thorax
that causes the wing to move up and down.
If fairies have damselfly wings,
they've got direct flight muscles to use them.
If they are, have butterfly wings,
they have indirect flight muscles running
across their thorax and along their thorax,
and when those muscles contract it must hurt.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Bats, we know, have the arm and fingers extended
with a skin flap running between those joints.
And this presumably is a method used
for flap in flight in dragons.
In this case the pectoral muscles draw the wing downwards
and muscles on the back draw the wing upwards.
Maybe angels, pouty, dragons and fairies glide or hover.
Maybe they don't just use flap in flight.
Again we have some evidence for this because if you look
at this painting by Grotto,
you find that there's a rather marvelous example here
of an angel with a mono wing.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: And you perceive that this angel is diving downwards,
and that obviously is gliding.
It's impossible to have flap in flight with a mono wing.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: If we look at a painting by Edward Burn Jones
of the enunciation, in this case,
and of course Edward Burn Jones is Victorian,
but as a pre [inaudible] hawks back to the Renaissance.
We have the angel flying but you notice
that the costume is wonderfully, neatly folded.
No sign here of any backwash from any, and I, I,
no I don't know quite how that's done.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: So the images of angels, pouty, angels, dragons
and fairies defy a rational explanation.
They are just images, which help us identify with mess
or supernatural events if such exists.
Angels, however, have a special significance
because they feature in matron religions.
And it seems appropriate, therefore,
to look at religious information to see if this any description
in that religious literature of angels having wings.
We know there are angels.
Do they have wings?
Well I was able to find four sightings in the Bible.
In the case of Isaiah, verse 6, we are discussing seraphim,
which are the senior levels of angels,
at least according to [inaudible].
And they stay in Heaven, so we don't get to see them
and they have six wings.
And you can see it's quite clearly described that two
of them are used to cup the face and two cover the feet,
and two are used for flight.
We've no idea more than that.
In Exodus, we have cherubim, which are another ranking,
high ranking of angels.
And they certainly stretch their wings.
We have another reference
to cherubim lifting their wings in Ezekiel.
And if we go to Daniel, they have reference
to Gabriel flying, but no mention
of whether Gabriel had wings or not.
So the presence of wings and so on,
would seem to have no basis in religious text.
And you will have to forgive me as I am not a scholar
of the Curran, but I believe
within the Curran there's also mention of angels.
And please tell me if it's stated there
that they have wings and if they do are they bird wings?
So where did we get this idea?
Was it an idea that came from Greek mythology?
As you know, in the early part of the Renaissance,
the monastery in the southern part
of Europe were very important centers of scholarship,
religious scholarship and also secular scholarship,
particularly looking at ancient Greek text
which have been translated into Arabic and then were translated
out into Latin so that we could understand them.
Did it come from this kind of interest
in the ancient Greek myths?
Well perhaps, but we know that we have representations
of angels with wings in the [inaudible] gospels,
and also no the alter of Duke Raucous in Lombardi,
and these are from the seventh and eighth centuries.
So clearly it's, it's very ancient,
and probably the origin comes with people looking at Gods
and Goddesses, like for example the late 90
which is 180 B.C. Ancient Greek God sculpture which was flighted
and not just flighted but had we know bird wings.
So how much have we been influenced
by mythology associated with flying animals?
Is that what is called our interpretation
of what we think angels, pouty, dragons
and fairies [inaudible] when they're flying?
Well the wings of angels are often portrayed as being
like those of doves or swans, very often white in color,
which in western culture is viewed as a sign of purity.
And they're considered to be benign.
And we know this with the lovely scene and the ducklings,
the ugly ducklings grow up to be swans.
And thereby beautiful and so on, etc. And tradition now
in American weddings is not only is the bride dressed in white,
and is very well lovely and beautiful, but the release
of white doves is a symbol of love and so on.
This is very much related to animal mythologies
that these animals, like swans, like doves, are benign and good.
There is some Greek mythology of course where swans are not
so good, but I'll not touch on that.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Are there angels of death?
Well yes there are in terms of gain if paintings
and in terms of mythologies.
This is one of the last paintings completed
by Van Gogh before his suicide.
And it's pretty, I think, frightening.
The crows are flying towards us
and the crows are symbols of death.
And the reason for that is of course, A they're black
which is bad luck on them,
and the other thing is they do feed on cranium.
And therefore they're associated with dead bodies.
The other picture which we can't see that well
because of the light in the lecture theater,
but this is an absolutely wonderful picture
by [inaudible].
And here is this little Finish boy looking
out across the picture.
And we don't know what his thoughts are,
but there's this crow
and I think we know what its thoughts are.
It's kind of looking out of one eye at this boy and thinking,
hum, I know something that you don't know,
or at least that's the way I interpret it,
maybe that's me being fanciful.
Okay dragons have bat like wings.
And bats are considered to be frightening in folklore.
And they're considered to be frightening
because they move around at night.
Now, [inaudible] us,
being [inaudible] active during the day tends
to be a little frightened at the night.
We can go to places at night
and hear a noise and say what's that?
Whereas it wouldn't worry us during the daytime.
So if we have animals that are active during the night,
by association rather frightening.
And you've probably heard many things
that well bats can and cannot do.
It's terribly unfortunate that there is one group of bats
that do feed on blood.
That doesn't help their reputation.
And they, I know they become entangled in girls hair,
and they've got, there's this end number of things
that poor old bats do.
So what a lovely animal to have its wing transported
on to a dragon.
Fairies have butterfly or damselfly wings.
And both groups of those insects are considered to be demure
and beautiful, which is what one imagines fairies to be.
Although of course we know that they come from larva which eat
up lots of plants, including plants
that we find very attractive in the case of butterflies.
And we know that damsel flies are predators.
We also know incidentally that the adult butterfly comes
from a pewter where we find the body plan completely transformed
from the larva.
Now, if angels have, sorry, if fairies have butterfly wings,
the question then comes
to a biologist do fairies have a pewter?
And if they do, they have a larva
and what does a larva fairy look like.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Okay let's look at some other mythologies just
so that we can see how entrenched this view is.
Moths they're nocturnal so they're considered
to be quite different to butterflies,
not really very pleasant.
They flutter around, they go by the window,
and some people get a real moth phobia.
Wasps, killing the first wasps seen each year brings good luck
because they've got lots of wasps around, the chances are
that you'll get stung at some point in the year.
Kingfishers.
This is an unusual one.
I do recommend it.
But kingfishers make very good weather vanes
when suspended from a string.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Cacaos are considered lucky.
The direction of the core of the cacao is considered to be seen
if it [inaudible] luck.
It comes from a particular location.
Nightingales also have a song which is lucky,
if you listen to the nightingale.
Nightjars are again nocturnal birds, therefore they're,
by definition, unpleasant and evil.
And so evil in fact that they're thought to suck blood just
like some of the bats actually do.
Owls are associated with witchcraft,
they're nocturnal as well.
And seagulls represent the souls of drowned sailors.
An awful lot of it.
It's no wonder when we're thinking of some
of these mythological creatures that we go
on to make free association from these animal mythologies.
The final one is a rather interesting one.
Eagles, and they have great power and as
such they're used as military symbols.
I won't go through the various nations that have used eagles
as symbols, but I think you know several of them.
And also, of course, they with the lion body are combined
to form griffons which are further mythological creatures
which guard treasure.
But whether a griffon is capable
of flight is yet another question.
So why do we need mythologies of flying?
Why do we need to think that these various creatures can fly?
Well angels, pouty, dragons and fairies connect earth
and heaven, and also earth and other places.
I don't know what those places are.
Underworld.
Present places that we can't go in the case of fairies.
We have a desperate need, if we have the thought
in a religious literature of something
like angels to [inaudible].
We have to make the thing human.
Then we've got a problem because we can't fly.
We're very jealous of things that can fly.
So we have to give it wings.
And angels, pouty and fairies are generally good.
They're almost always presented as being good looking.
I've never seen a really ugly angel,
but there probably are some.
And they look after us.
Whereas dragons are nasty, evil, intent on doing us harm.
So therefore they're represented as being grotesque,
not human figures and with the wings of a creature
that we distinctly suspect.
Now, the mythology of flying is interesting
in that it extends memories of flight that we have in dreams
and in hallucinations and in near death experiences.
Flying dreams are for the most part pleasant.
Yuen in his analysis believes that they are a means
of escape and liberation.
Freud believes, as Freud seemed to with most things,
that it is something to do with sex.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: If one hallucinates under the influence of LSD,
one of the thing that can occur, so I'm told,
is that one has a sense of being liberated, of flying.
And in fact there are a number of people that have jumped
through windows as a result of an LSD trip
where they felt they could fly.
It's a heightened state.
And it's a heightened state that also occurs
in near death experiences.
I think you probably all heard that people have reported
that they leave their body
and they can look down on their body.
Now, that's a very powerful sensation
which is probably become enshrined
in some of these mythologies.
And of course another reason why we need the concept of angels
and other words in heaven and so on is
because it is related these creatures are related to death
and the concept of the soul flying away to some other world.
And we're desperate that death is not aligned
but that we float off or are carried off or are supported
in some way, thus the immortal soul.
That too is enshrined within the religious mythologies related
to angels.
We're introduced to mythologies when we're very young.
None of us can escape mythologies,
we all have mythological explanations for things.
It's an essential part of a human condition.
And if you have a persistent child asking that question,
yes but what and you say well look well yes wait
until you're older or something.
And then you, no but what if, you must, you know.
What do you come up with?
You come up with some kind of explanation
and the explanation is fairly often
or at least it contains a component in mythology.
It, it's very nice to talk about things like tooth fairies.
The tooth fairy will make a, you know,
I mean you can actually get hold of a kid's tooth
and really pull it out, if the tooth fairy is going
to come along and use that tooth to build a castle.
And it's interesting that just at this time
of year we have a wonderful confusion of mythologies.
And I want to end with this so that we've got time
for questions and discussions.
And this is of course the Christmas nativity play.
And two pictures here which are from nativity plays.
One on the left, super production
with the most fabulous wings where tinsel all the way
around the outside, and here are these girls.
Have you noticed actually
that the angel Gabriel's a girl, always?
And there they are dancing kind of part angel, part [inaudible]
and having a wonderful time.
But the one that I want to point out with the confusion
of mythologies is over on the right
where we have a similar enactment
and a rather nice Sheppard's over here and two angels.
And this angel has fairy wings.
Now, she has fairy wings because when she was three years old she
absolutely loved the idea of putting on her fairy wings
and living in fantasy land.
And now those wings come in extremely useful when you have
to have wings to be an angel, because angels have wings.
And I find this absolutely delightful,
and I'm not afraid of these mythologies.
I think they're rather good.
But it's extraordinary when you go into any church,
you will see winged angels.
There is no evidence for them being winged at all.
I don't think there's any evidence
that dragons have wings.
I don't think there's any evidence that pouty have wings.
I don't think there's any evidence
that fairies have wings.
But it's a lovely idea isn't it?
And then finally a happy seasonal holiday to you all.
[ Applause ]
>> Thank you very much Roger for a wonderful talk.
We do have time for some questions.
This actually is being filmed, so if you could wait for one
of my colleagues to provide you
with a microphone before asking your question that'd be great.
So do we have any questions?
This one down here, thanks.
>> Sam: Your erudition
of Christmas stopped short of reindeer.
What sort of wings do reindeer have?
Where did they get them from?
And is there a maximum size of a reindeer that can fly?
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Thanks Sam.
I mean.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: For those of you
that don't know Professor Sam Berry he is one
of the great biblical scholars in this country.
>> [Inaudible].
>> Roger: To answer your question,
there's no size limit on, on reindeer flying.
The red nose of Rudolph gives it away.
They have some kind of nuclear motor.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: And they fly in exactly the same way
as the enunciating angel in Burn Jones.
It's completely invisible mechanism
which we have yet to understand.
>> Sam: Thank you.
>> Do we have another question?
On the top.
>> I think angels have wings
because apparently they haven't got any teeth.
If you look at art books and look
at the way angels are depicted, they never have any teeth.
>> Roger: Well thank you, that's useful contribution.
[ Laughter ]
>> Do we have another question?
>> Roger: I've certainly not come
across that one, that's good.
>> Any more questions.
Oh sorry, right down in front.
>> Surely whether angels are [inaudible],
yours doesn't depict on the aerodynamics
which surely on their mass.
And do we know what mass, their mass is?
>> Roger: No we don't know their mass, but a very good question.
One of the things we know about flying creatures is
that they have a very, or as light as possible airframe.
If you look at a bumblebee for example, a bumblebee is
on the brink of not being a flying machine and it has
to warm itself up to a level
where it can gain sufficient energy
to beat its wings fast enough in order to fly.
Now, if you look at pouty,
an individual pouto is not exactly a slim airframe.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: It also, the wings absolutely tiny,
and they're supposed to beat those wings.
>> And you're [inaudible] same as your flesh.
>> Roger: Sorry the?
>> Your human, the flesh of, the mass of your flesh is the same
as the mass of their flesh.
That's why I asked this, it's about the mass.
Now, if you go in the British museum, there's a lovely one
with a great ball with wings
and obviously the place of [inaudible].
>> [Inaudible].
>> Yeah [inaudible].
Now, [inaudible] have great difficulty flying.
And that also raised the other question I'm going to say,
ostriches have wings, penguins have wings, they don't fly.
>> Roger: No, no, sure.
But we've evidence that the pouty do fly,
because we can see them suspended in air.
You'll never see that from an ostrich.
>> Ah yes, ah yes.
[ Laughter ]
>> This is comes back to mass again doesn't it?
>> Roger: I'm sorry?
>> This comes back to mass again.
>> Roger: It does.
And I was about to develop that, that line of thought, that,
that if you have a pouto with its small wings,
its wings to enable that pouto to fly,
would have to be hypersonic which would blow the wings off.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: So it can't do that [inaudible].
Well perhaps you don't watch bodybuilders.
But if you.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: But if you do, they've got this routine
where they do this kind of stuff,
they call it pumping up, you know.
So like this, so they get their pecks really pronounced
you know.
Well imagine if they needed the pecks to fly,
they would be spherical and it would all be pectoral muscle.
But of course as my colleague here suggests
that would then make them too heavy to fly, ah yeah.
[ Laughter ]
>> I think there's another question near the door.
Yeah it's right here.
>> Okay. Have you any comments
about the fairy dust Tinkerbell sprinkled on Peter Pan?
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: No.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Except to think it's rather wonderful.
>> And another one next door.
>> Hi, did, did you find any evidence for conditions
in the upper atmosphere and beyond?
And with respect to the providence of angels,
in terms of which meteor they would be able to fly in,
or their mass propulsion beyond the earth's atmosphere and other
such celestial issues?
>> Roger: No.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: But a good try.
No I, I'm, I, I simply have no idea.
I mean I thought I made it quite clear during the lecture I have
no idea about [inaudible].
[ Laughter ]
>> Mark and just here.
[Inaudible].
>> Mike: Thanks.
Hi Roger.
>> Roger: Hi Mike.
>> Mike: Very great talk.
So do you think that dragons find it easier to fly
because of the hydrogen gas in their body cavity,
which of course they also use to make fire?
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Almost certainly.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: Am I, am I being evasive with these questions?
[ Laughter ]
>> Excuse me.
It's a question I want to ask.
>> Sorry can you just turn your microphone on?
>> Yeah. Is it on?
>> No.
>> Here, sorry.
>> Roger: Gives me some recovery time.
>> It's on now.
>> Yeah.
>> Is that, is that better?
>> Roger: Great.
>> Right. What, what interests me about, about the universe,
about the afterlife, if there is such thing,
did you find any evidence about that?
>> Roger: Well I mean clearly and I have to answer no.
It's a matter of, of faith and belief isn't it.
And I have the most profound respect for people
who do believe in the afterlife,
whatever that afterlife might be.
That's their belief system and I respect it.
>> Thank you.
Next.
>> This is a fine tradition in the biology department.
I seem to remember that JBS [inaudible] tried
to calculate the muscle mass and so on for angels back
in the 1930's or something.
And he said their legs would have
to be reduced to stilts and so on.
But I never came across a painting of one
of [inaudible] angels.
Have you?
>> Roger: I haven't.
But, but, it's deeply humbling the thought
of in the same tradition as JBS [inaudible] I have to say.
>> There's another one right near the door.
Got the other microphone working now I believe.
>> Do, did you find any evidence or do you have any comments
on any of the mythical creatures having enough space
in their body plans for the correct muscular journey needed
for flap in flight?
>> Roger: Just to reiterate, they can't do it.
[ Laughter ]
>> Roger: There isn't.
I mean it's the problem, but the more muscle bulk
that they'd need to be able to fly.
The bulkier they are by definition
and the more unlikely it is that they'll be able to fly.
So where are they going to lighten.
We've had this wonderful idea from Mark that is connected
in some way to some kind
of hydrogen motor, or well no, sorry.
No. I mean I, I, I'm tempted almost to go
up into the realms of fantasy.
[ Laughter ]
>> Okay for another one over here.
>> I just wanted to know what considerations you think might
apply to the flight of, of creatures
like the griffins you mentioned, but didn't go into in detail.
>> Roger: Sorry, the?
>> Griffins.
>> Roger: Griffin.
Yeah. Well griffins really shouldn't do that much flying
because they're involved with guarding.
And they're particularly horrific
in that they have the attributes of the eagle
and the attributes of the lion combined.
So they have the strength of the lion on the ground,
and they have the strength of the eagle simply [inaudible],
they can go chase anybody.
But, but considered, I believe, and I could stand corrected
on this, I believe that their role is
to intimidate near the treasure rather
than go capture people and so on.
So I think that's ancestrally the role of griffins.
They also come in different combinations
of which bits are eagle and which bits are lion
and which bits are added on as well.
>> There's another one by, by you to your left.
>> Hello. I'm slightly worried about the use
of heel wings, such as in Mercury.
How actually does this work?
Do, does mercury have to fly with his legs very far apart
to stop the two inside wings colliding with each other?
>> Roger: Sorry, in which?
>> Well for example the God Mercury has wings on his heels.
>> Roger: Right.
>> Do, I think he has a pair on each heel.
So therefore there would be the two internal wings
which would presumably mean that he has to fly
with his legs very far apart to stop them
from colliding into each other.
>> Roger: I think we need to differentiate the power
of flight in Mercury which was nothing to do with the wings.
And the wings were used as stabilizers.
[ Laughter ]
>> I think we have time for one more question if,
if you have any more questions.
Yes, right in the middle.
This way.
>> Thank you.
In Philip Woman's Trilogy, his [inaudible] materials,
he develops the idea that angels are made of light particles
and would that resolve the problem
of mass that's been the vote so far?
>> Roger: I think all the evidence points to the fact
that angels are identifiable being but they are not remotely
like we see in illustrations.
Clearly at the time of the enunciation,
the *** Mary knew that an angel was present,
but whether that was in any form
like we presented is another matter.
I don't know what an angel actually is
in any physical form.
So it might be that you're right,
it might be that you're wrong.
It might just be that it's some kind of spiritual sex
and I don't know by definition what a spiritual sex is.
>> Okay. Thank you for that.
That's all we've got time for today.
I'd like to thank you all very much for coming.
Also thank you for your questions.
If you could join me in thanking Professor [inaudible].
[ Applause ]