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>> Augusta: JOINING ME IS MICHELE PENHALL WITH THE UNM
ART MUSEUM. MICHELE, LET'S JUST JUMP
RIGHT IN. WHAT DEFINES A PHOTOGRAPHIC
MASTERPIECE? >> Dr. Penhall: WELL, I
THINK ANY GREAT PICTURE THAT WE CAN CALL A MASTERPIECE
HAS AN ENDURING QUALITY THAT LASTS OVER TIME, SOMETHING
YOU CAN COME BACK TO OVER A VERY LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND
IT STILL RESONATES WITH THE PERSON.
I THINK ANY GREAT PICTURE ALSO NEEDS THE PARTICIPATION
FROM THE BEHOLDER. JOHN DEWEY TALKS ABOUT THIS
AND HAVING AN EXPERIENCE ABOUT ART.
WHEN YOU STAND IN FRONT OF A PICTURE, YOU'RE BRINGING IN
ALL KINDS OF THINGS TO IT FROM YOUR OWN FILTERS, YOUR
OWN EMOTIONAL BEING, AND SO THERE'S A CONNECTION THERE,
I THINK, A HUMAN AND AN EMOTIONAL CONNECTION BETWEEN
A PERSON AND A WORK OF ART. AND IF THAT CONNECTION
HAPPENS AND IT'S STRONG, THEN I THINK IT BECOMES A
VERY ENDURING IMAGE. SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THINGS
VERY FAMOUSLY, LIKE THE MONA LISA, THINGS THAT ARE
CONSIDERED MASTERPIECES, AND THEY WERE DONE A LONG TIME
AGO, THEY STILL RESONATE WITH A LARGE VARIETY OF
INDIVIDUALS OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.
>> Augusta: IT'S A LOT OF WHAT THE BEHOLDER BRINGS TO
THE TABLE. >> Dr. Penhall: YES.
IT'S NOT A STATIC THING. WORK OF ART IS NOT A STATIC
THING. YOU HAVE TO BRING SOMETHING
TO IT, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A CONNECTION TO IT, OTHERWISE
YOU WOULD WALK RIGHT BY IT. YOU WOULDN'T STOP.
>> Augusta: DOES IT HELP TO UNDERSTAND THE CREATOR'S
VISION? >> Dr. Penhall: YOU CAN'T
ALWAYS KNOW THAT, AND CERTAINLY I'M AN HISTORIAN,
AND SO I LIKE TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT SOMEBODY WAS
DOING, AND I FIND THAT VERY INTERESTING.
I'M INTERESTED IN BIOGRAPHY AS WELL AS THE PERSON'S
INTENTION. IF YOU CAN FIND OUT THINGS
ABOUT A PHOTOGRAPHER THAT INFORM, THE PICTURE MAY NOT
BE AS OVERT IN THE PICTURE. YOU KNOW, THERE HAS TO BE
SOME QUALITY OF MYSTERY, SOME QUALITY OF UNKNOWN,
SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU QUESTION IT AND MAKES YOU
WANT TO KEEP, YOU KNOW, REVIEWING OR LOOKING AT THIS
IMAGE OVER AND OVER AGAIN. A SENSE OF MAGIC, MAYBE, IN
A PICTURE ON SOME EVEN SMALL SCALE THAT JUST MAKES YOU
WANT TO CONTINUE TO SORT OF INTERACT WITH IT.
AND WE HAVE THIS EXTRAORDINARY COLLECTION AT
THE UNM ART MUSEUM. >> Augusta: KIND OF A
WELL-KEPT SECRET. >> Dr. Penhall: YES, IT
IS, SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO NOT BE SO WELL KEPT.
WE HAVE OVER 10,000 PHOTOGRAPHS FROM THE VERY
BEGINNING OF THE HISTORY OF PHOTOGRAPHY TO CONTEMPORARY
WORK. >> Augusta: FOR EXAMPLE,
THE EDWARD WESTON. >> Dr. Penhall: YES.
SO THIS BECAME SORT OF, FOR ME, ONE OF THE SORT OF
SIGNATURE IMAGES OF THE EXHIBITION, BECAUSE IT'S A
VERY STRIKING IMAGE. IT WAS MADE IN 1928-1930.
AND IT'S THIS ESSENCE OF MODERNISM, BOILING DOWN THIS
VEGETABLE MATTER TO THE ESSENCE OF THIS FORM THAT
WESTON WAS SO INTERESTED IN. AND IT STILL IS AN IMAGE
THAT I CAN LOOK AT OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND JUST GET LOST
IN IT. IT'S SOMETHING THAT SPARKS
MY IMAGINATION. IT'S ALSO ABOUT SEEING THESE
THINGS IN SCALE, AND IT'S A VERY SMALL BUT YET VERY
DYNAMIC POWERFUL IMAGE. >> Augusta: AND RATHER
TIMELESS. IS THAT MAYBE ONE OF THE
THINGS THAT DEFINES, AGAIN, THE PHOTOGRAPHIC
MASTERPIECE? >> Dr. Penhall: ABSOLUTELY.
I MEAN, SOME OF THE VERY FIRST PHOTOGRAPHS ARE OF
PLANT SPECIES AND BOTANICAL STUDIES, AND THAT'S FROM THE
19TH CENTURY, 1840s. AND YET THIS WAS DONE MUCH,
MUCH LATER. AND NOW IT'S 2012, AND IT
STILL IS A VERY POWERFUL IMAGE.
>> Augusta: YOU HAVE ONE FROM JULIA MARGARET CAMERON,
AS WELL. >> Dr. Penhall: JULIA
MARGARET CAMERON STARTED PHOTOGRAPHY VERY LATE IN
LIFE. SHE WAS, I BELIEVE, 48,
LIVING IN THE WHOLE VICTORIAN ERA, AND HER
SISTER GAVE HER A CAMERA AS A PRESENT, AND SHE BEGAN
MAKING THESE PHOTOGRAPHS. AND WOMEN DIDN'T TYPICALLY
DO THIS, AND SHE MADE SOME OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY
PORTRAITS THAT ARE STILL INCREDIBLY EVOCATIVE.
SHE WAS VERY INTERESTED IN FINDING AND PORTRAYING THE
QUALITY OF BEAUTY. SHE USED FAMILY FRIENDS, AND
SOME OF THE LUMINAIRES THAT SHE WAS EXPOSED TO IN THEIR
TIME PERIOD, AND SOMETIMES THEY DRESSED UP AS
ALLEGORICAL FIGURES, OR RELIGIOUS THEMES.
SHE JUST MADE SOME OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY
PORTRAITS. THE ONE THAT'S IN THE
EXHIBITION IS CALLED "THE WILDFLOWER," WHICH IS A LINE
FROM A WILLIAM BLAKE POEM, AND IT'S JUST THIS
INCREDIBLE STUDY OF THIS WOMAN THAT I THINK TODAY IS
STILL SO POWERFUL. IT'S THIS INTENSE BEAUTY
THAT SHE WAS AFTER, AND I THINK SHE CAPTURED THAT WITH
MANY OF HER PORTRAITS. YOU CAN LOOK AT THEM TODAY
AND THEY LOOK AS FRESH AS IF THEY WERE MADE YESTERDAY,
AND YET THEY WERE MADE IN THE 1850s, 1840s.
>> Augusta: WHAT ABOUT MOHOLY-NAGY?
>> Dr. Penhall: WE JUMP FORWARD TO SOME OF THE
MODERNISTS AND THEIR ABSTRACT PHOTOGRAMS.
SO IT'S THE ESSENCE OF LIGHT AND SHADOW.
HE'S NOT TAKING A PICTURE OF SOMETHING, HE'S CREATING
THIS IMAGE IN THE DARKROOM ON PAPER WITH JUST THESE
ABSTRACT OBJECTS AND THINGS. YOU CAN LOOK AT THESE IMAGES
AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE, AND YET YOU'RE STILL
INTRIGUED BY THE IMAGE. HE WAS INTERESTED IN
PORTRAYING THINGS IN A VERY OBJECTIVE WAY.
HE SAID THAT HE DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS, SOME OF
THE EARLY PHOTOGRAMS, BECAUSE A PHOTOGRAM IS
SOMETHING THAT CAME OUT OF THE VERY BEGINNINGS OF
PHOTOGRAPHY, AND YET THIS MUCH LATER.
SO HE WAS EXPERIMENTING, AND THESE EXPERIMENTS ARE JUST
EXTRAORDINARY THINGS TO SORT OF LOOK AT.
>> Augusta: THE COLLECTION, ITSELF,
"RECONSIDERING THE PHOTOGRAPHIC MASTERPIECE,"
IT GIVES ONE A LOT TO THINK ABOUT, NOT JUST -- I MEAN,
YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT LIGHT AND IMAGINARY AND THE TIME
IN WHICH SOME OF THESE WERE SHOT.
I MEAN, REALLY, YOU'RE STILL LEARNING FROM THEM TODAY.
>> Dr. Penhall: YES. I CAN DO THIS EXHIBITION TEN
TIMES AND HAVE A WHOLE DIFFERENT SET OF
PHOTOGRAPHS. THERE ARE OVER 100 IN THIS
PARTICULAR EXHIBITION. BUT I LEARNED BY SEEING WHAT
WE HAVE IN THE COLLECTION, BY SELECTING ALL OF THESE
IMAGES, AND THEN WHEN YOU'RE SEQUENCING THEM IN THE
GALLERY, YOU'RE PUTTING IMAGES NEXT TO EACH OTHER
AND YOU'RE CREATING RELATIONSHIPS, WHICH YOU
CAN'T SEE WHEN YOU'RE PICKING THE WORK.
BUT WHEN YOU'RE INSTALLING IT, YOU'RE SEEING WHOLE NEW
RELATIONSHIPS WITH IMAGES YOU HADN'T REALLY THOUGHT
ABOUT. SO YOU'RE CREATING NEW
DIALOGUES BETWEEN IMAGES AND BETWEEN PHOTOGRAPHERS, AND
THAT'S REALLY QUITE FUN. >> Augusta: WHAT DO WE SEE
WHEN WE LOOK AT MUYBRIDGE? >> Dr. Penhall: EADWEARD
MUYBRIDGE IS QUITE IMPORTANT, BECAUSE HE
DEVELOPED A CAMERA THAT COULD ACTUALLY SHOOT ACTION.
HE DID AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF MOTION STUDIES WITH
PEOPLE, WITH ANIMALS, CALLED LOCOMOTION STUDIES.
HE WAS VERY INTERESTED IN THE SCIENCE OF IT AND SEEING
HOW PEOPLE WALK, HOW PEOPLE WITH INFIRMITIES WALK, HOW
ANIMALS PROWL. WE HAVE OVER A HUNDRED OF
HIS WORKS, AND THEY'RE INCREDIBLE TO LOOK AT, TO
SORT OF TRY TO GET INTO HIS MIND AND SEE WHAT HE WAS
AIMING FOR WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS LARGER BODY OF WORK.
>> Augusta: I THINK IT'S KIND OF NEAT, WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT LIGHT AND IMAGERY, SCIENCE, WOMEN IN THE
HISTORY OF PHOTOGRAPHY. >> Dr. Penhall: RIGHT.
>> Augusta: THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT ARE DISCOVERED
THROUGH PRODUCING THESE MASTERPIECES.
IT'S PRETTY INCREDIBLE. >> Dr. Penhall: RIGHT.
BEHIND EVERY GREAT PICTURE IS REALLY A GOOD IDEA, AND I
THINK THAT'S PART OF -- AND OUR COLLECTION IS PULLING
OUT THESE PICTURES AND PUTTING THEM ON THE WALLS
AND HAVING PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THEM, AND BRINGING
THEIR OWN PERSONAL BEING TO THE IMAGES.
THE EXHIBITION NOW IS QUITE A VARIETY OF IMAGES, FROM
POSTCARDS TO VERNACULAR THINGS, AND TO GREAT SORT OF
MASTERPIECES LIKE ANSEL ADAMS' "MOONRISE OVER
HERNANDEZ," THINGS LIKE THAT THAT ARE VERY WELL-KNOWN AND
THEY'RE OUT THERE IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE.
>> Augusta: SO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF A
MASTERPIECE SORT OF EVOLVES AS WE EVOLVE.
>> Dr. Penhall: YES, IT DOES.
>> Augusta: AND THERE ARE CHANGING FACTORS IN THAT.
LET'S DISCUSS SOME OF THE FACTORS.
>> Dr. Penhall: WELL, SCHOLARSHIP HAS CHANGED
DRAMATICALLY OVER THE LAST, SAY, 20 YEARS, AND SO WE
HAVE THE CANON OF PHOTOGRAPHY, AND THE GREATS
AND ALL THE MASTERS THAT WE KNOW, AND SORT OF THIS
TRAJECTORY FROM 1839 FORWARD.
YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE IMAGES OUT THERE IN THE WORLD ARE
IMAGES THAT AREN'T PART OF THIS CANON.
BUT IN THE LAST 20-25 YEARS, SCHOLARSHIP HAS GOTTEN MORE
INCLUSIVE ABOUT THESE THINGS.
I'M THINKING ABOUT SOMEONE LIKE MIKE DISFARMER.
WE HAVE IN OUR COLLECTION A NUMBER OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS,
AND THEY'RE VERY SMALL, LITTLE 5x7, 3.5x5
PORTRAITS FROM THIS VERY OBSCURE ECCENTRIC
PHOTOGRAPHER WHO LIVED IN HEBER SPRINGS, ARKANSAS.
HE WORKED DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR, ACTUALLY, FROM
ABOUT 1939 TO THE '40s. HE WAS A VERY ECCENTRIC GUY,
AND HE MADE THESE INCREDIBLE STUDIO PORTRAITS OF THE
FOLKS IN HEBER SPRINGS. AND WITH THESE PHOTOGRAPHS,
YOU SEE THEY'RE JUST LINED UP IN A VERY AMERICAN WAY,
BECAUSE THEY'RE VERY FRONTAL.
THEY'RE LINED UP IN FRONT OF A NEUTRAL BACKDROP.
HE HAD A STUDIO WITH NORTH LIGHT.
THEY ARE NOT THESE EXCLUSIVE TO THE EXHIBITION KIND OF
PRINTS ONE THINKS OF, AND YET HE'S SORT OF BEEN
REDISCOVERED. HE NOW HAS SIX BOOKS OUT ON
HIM, AND HIS WORK SHOWS UP AT AUCTIONS FOR ALL KINDS OF
PRICES. AND THEY ARE THESE TINY
LITTLE, SMALL LITTLE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT EVERYBODY
HAS AT HOME OF THEIR GRANDPARENTS OR SOMETHING.
THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS IN THE BEST SHAPE, BUT THE IMAGES
HAVE BECOME VERY COMPELLING. AND SO THIS GETS WRITTEN
ABOUT, AND THE INTEREST EVOLVED, AND PEOPLE GET VERY
EXCITED ABOUT IT AND START COLLECTING IT.
>> Augusta: WE SHOULD ALL BE GLAD IT DIDN'T END UP IN
A SHOEBOX IN SOMEBODY'S ATTIC, THE WAY IT SOUNDS.
>> Dr. Penhall: YES. >> Augusta: WHAT ABOUT THE
LITTLE ANONYMOUS PHOTO ALBUM?
LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING.
>> Dr. Penhall: THAT'S ONE OF MY FAVORITE WORKS IN THE
WHOLE EXHIBITION. WHEN I WAS PUTTING THE
EXHIBITION TOGETHER, WE HAD A LOT OF WORK THAT WE HADN'T
REALLY PAID A LOT OF ATTENTION TO, AND I FOUND
THIS SMALL LITTLE ALBUM. IT HAS ABOUT 28-30 PICTURES
IN IT. AND YOU OPEN IT UP, AND
THERE'S A TITLE PAGE, TYPED. I THINK IT WAS PROBABLY DONE
BY A FEMALE, MAYBE BY HER SISTER.
WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHO DID IT.
BUT THE IMAGES IN THERE ARE SOME OF THE MOST
EXTRAORDINARY IMAGES I'VE EVER SEEN.
AND FOR A SMALL PERSONAL FAMILY -- YOU KNOW, SOME
SORT OF PERSONAL ALBUM, THERE'S SUCH ATTENTION,
THERE'S SUCH SENSITIVITY TO EVERY PICTURE.
THE FIRST ONE UP THERE IS A MAN SITTING, LIKE YOU AND I
ARE, TALKING TO A SKELETON WITH A BLACK BACKDROP.
ACTUALLY, HE'S READING SOMETHING.
AND ALL THE PICTURES ARE CAPTIONED IN THIS LOVELY
HANDWRITING. I JUST FOUND IT TO BE SORT
OF EXTRAORDINARY. AND, YOU KNOW, 20 YEARS AGO
WE WOULD HAVE JUST THOUGHT, OH, IT'S JUST AN ALBUM, AND
WE WOULDN'T HAVE REALLY PAID MUCH ATTENTION TO IT.
NOW IT'S IN A MUSEUM, AND WE SHOW IT AS AN ART OBJECT.
I THINK THOSE THINGS, THESE KIND OF VERNACULAR IMAGES,
THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM OUT THERE, AND WE HAVE TO
PAY SOME ATTENTION TO THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE IMPORTANT.
THEY TALK ABOUT CULTURE IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN
"MASTERPIECES" DO. >> Augusta: THERE'S SOME
HUMOR EMBEDDED IN THAT, TOO, FROM ONE FAMILY MEMBER TO
ANOTHER. >> Dr. Penhall: EXACTLY.
EVERY GOOD PICTURE ALSO HAS A STORY BEHIND IT, AND I
WOULD LIKE TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THAT ALBUM,
BECAUSE THERE'S GOT TO BE A VERY INTERESTING STORY
THERE. >> Augusta: IT WOULD BE
KIND OF COOL TO FIND OUT. >> Dr. Penhall: YES.
>> Augusta: WHO ARE SOME OF THE CONTEMPORARY
PHOTOGRAPHERS THAT YOU THINK ARE MAKING CONTRIBUTIONS
THAT WILL HAVE AN IMPACT OVER TIME?
>> Dr. Penhall: HUGH EDWARDS, THE LONG-TIME
CURATOR OF THE CHICAGO ART INSTITUTE, SAID THAT A GREAT
PICTURE AWAKENS SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT IN EVERYONE
WHO LOOKS AT IT. AND IT ALSO TAKES A VERY
LONG TIME, I THINK, FOR US TO SORT OF DETERMINE WHAT A
MASTERPIECE IS, OR AN ENDURING IMAGE.
WE HAVE AN IMAGE BY MARTIN PARR, A BRITISH
PHOTOGRAPHER, AND IT'S THIS OLDER WOMAN.
IT'S JUST HER HEAD IN A RAIN BONNET WITH POLKA DOTS ON
IT. HE PHOTOGRAPHED A CERTAIN
CLASS OF PEOPLE IN ENGLAND. I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE MOST
EXTRAORDINARY IMAGES BECAUSE IT'S JUST HER HEAD, AND HER
EYE IS JUST SORT OF CATCHING YOU.
SHE'S LOOKING VERY FAR WITH ONE EYE, AND THERE'S JUST
THIS CONNECTION THAT YOU SEE.
AND SOMETHING ABOUT IT FOR ME IS VERY BRITISH.
FOR ME, IT REALLY ENCAPSULATES MARTIN PARR'S
WORK ON PHOTOGRAPHING ENGLISH PEOPLE OF A CERTAIN
CLASS. >> Augusta: IT'S AMAZING
WHAT YOU CAN GET ALL OUT OF ONE PHOTOGRAPH.
>> Dr. Penhall: RIGHT. >> Augusta: WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT A WOMAN'S HEAD WITH A RAIN BONNET, AND ALL OF THE
THINGS THAT YOU CAN REALLY DERIVE FROM IT.
>> Dr. Penhall: THE DETAILS MAKE IT INTERESTING.
SHE SEES EVERYBODY. SHE'S WATCHING EVERYTHING
WITH THAT LOOK IN HER EYE, AND I THINK IT'S JUST A
FASCINATING PORTRAIT. >> Augusta: ANY OTHER
EXAMPLES IN THE EXHIBIT THAT REALLY STICK OUT, OR STAND
OUT OF CONTEMPORARY WORK? >> Dr. Penhall: RECENTLY,
MAYBE TWO YEARS AGO, I CAME ACROSS THE WORK OF A
HUNGARIAN PHOTOGRAPHER NAMED TAMAS DEZSO.
I SAW HIS WORK IN AN EXHIBITION, AND HE WAS PART
OF A CONFERENCE UP IN SANTA FE.
A COUPLE OF PICTURES JUST KNOCKED MY SOCKS OFF.
I MEAN, I JUST WAS SO DRAWN TO THEM.
THE ONE THAT'S IN THE EXHIBITION IS CALLED "THE
NIGHT WATCHMAN," AND IT'S THIS LARGE COLOR PHOTOGRAPH
THAT LOOKS ALMOST BLACK AND WHITE.
IT'S A TINY LITTLE TRAILER UP AGAINST THIS HUGE
BACKDROP OF A WALL, AND INSIDE THAT LITTLE TRAILER
IS A NIGHT WATCHMAN. THE ONLY REAL COLOR IN THE
IMAGE IS THE LITTLE SORT OF ORANGE LIGHT THAT'S
ILLUMINATING THIS TINY LITTLE FIGURE THAT'S IN
THERE. I CAN STILL LOOK AT THAT
PICTURE OF THE NIGHT WATCHMAN AND BE JUST VERY
INTRIGUED BY WHAT'S GOING ON THERE, AND HAVING A DIALOGUE
WITH MYSELF WONDERING ABOUT THE GENTLEMAN IN THE
TRAILER. >> Augusta: YEAH, THE
STORY BEHIND IT. >> Dr. Penhall: THE STORY.
LOOKING AT EVERY LITTLE DETAIL, SEEING HOW HE'S
PLUGGED INTO THIS WALL TO GET THE ELECTRICITY INTO HIS
TRAILER. YOU JUST KIND OF GO THROUGH
ALL OF THESE LITTLE DETAILS IN YOUR HEAD AND JUST
WONDER. >> Augusta: SOMETIMES THE
PHOTO, IT SOUNDS LIKE, IS DEFINED BY AS MUCH AS WHAT'S
NOT THERE THAN WHAT IS. >> Dr. Penhall: RIGHT.
>> Augusta: YOU'RE NOTICING THE THINGS THAT ARE
THERE BECAUSE IT'S VERY MINIMAL IN ITS PRESENTATION.
>> Dr. Penhall: BUT YOU DO WONDER, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S
A GOOD IMAGE, BECAUSE YOU'RE HAVING A DIALOGUE, YOU'RE
THINKING ABOUT IT. >> Augusta: YOU'RE FILLING
IN THE GAPS. >> Dr. Penhall: RIGHT.
IT'S PROVOKING SOMETHING. AND I THINK ALL GOOD
PICTURES SHOULD PROVOKE SOMETHING, SHOULD PROVOKE A
CONVERSATION, SHOULD SPARK THE IMAGINATION SO THAT
YOU -- AND YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS.
I THINK YOU WANT TO HAVE SOME MYSTERY.
YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT IT.
YOU WANT TO JUST COME BACK AND KEEP LOOKING AT IT OVER
AND OVER AGAIN. >> Augusta: THANK YOU,
MICHELE. VERY COOL STUFF.
>> Dr. Penhall: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.