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David Pakman: John Becker's back on the show. He's Communications Director for Truth Wins
Out, the website's www.TruthWinsOut.org. Now, John, last time you were on the show, you
were making national media headlines because you went to the Marcus and Michele Bachmann
anti-gay therapy clinic with multiple hidden cameras. You pretended to be a single man
who was having some ideas, some attractions to men, and the idea was to see would they
kind of tell you they can make you no longer have these feelings. Is that kind of a good
summary?
John Becker: Yes, that's correct. We wanted to see whether or not a person who came to
the clinic seeking to be... seeking to... to become un-gay, to become ex-gay, would
be offered reparative therapy. That's exactly correct.
David: And in fact, you recorded with the cameras that that is what they were doing
there. I mean, you went to how many sessions... sessions I use as a very loose term, but how
many sessions with a so-called "therapist" did you go to?
Becker: I actually went to five of them, but at the very beginning, at the outset of treatment,
they told me that it would take, a full course would take four to six months.
David: So that would be kind of like the full program, so to speak.
Becker: Right, right, to, you know, to really dial down and hopefully completely eliminate
my attraction to men and build up my attraction to women. And I was explicitly told that at
the very least, I would be able to get my homosexual urges down to a manageable level,
yeah, where I could function, you know, with women, and at the most, I could be completely
cured of them.
David: So towards the end of this, after you had all the footage you needed, there were
two sessions, if I understand correctly, which you canceled, is that right?
Becker: Yes. Well, because it was supposed to take four to six months, I always... I
always booked out a couple of appointments in advance just so that that way, nobody would
get suspicious and go well, this is supposed to be, you know, several months long, why
is he only, you know, does he only have five or six of them booked?
So I always booked out a couple appointments, but after we had gotten enough evidence on
video that, you know, to prove conclusively that this was reparative therapy, we obviously
decided to end. So I canceled the remaining sessions. I called the clinic and left a voice
message saying that a family member had a health crisis out of state and I canceled
the remaining sessions, in accordance with their no-show policy.
David: So fast-forward to more recently, you actually get a voicemail from Marcus Bachmann
himself saying you owe them money, and if you don't pay, I think it's $75 per session,
so $150 total, he's going to turn your account over to a collections agency, is that right?
Becker: Right. You know, I had... starting in August, I had gotten... had received in
the mail paper, you know, written bills from the Bachmann clinic, and at first I thought
they were just trying to mess with me, you know, because they... this story had really
kind of defined Marcus Bachmann in the national media. He'd been... he'd been unknown before
that point, you know, but so I figured that they were just trying to get under my skin
and, you know, kind of make a little point. But once the bills came, after a couple of
months, I realized oh, maybe they're actually... they actually are thinking that they're going
to try to get money from me.
So I called the clinic and left a message... or, no, rather I spoke with the receptionist,
and she said that once the charges had been assessed, they could only be removed at the
therapist's discretion, and this was on a Wednesday, and she said if you haven't heard
back from your therapist by the end of the week, then you can consider the matter settled
and that the charges have been, you know, revoked. Well...
David: And then she... did this person you spoke with, he or she, did they know that
you... what the investigation and the video? They knew who was calling, right?
Becker: I don't know that that... that that billing receptionist had made the connection,
actually, because she was very, very kind, very cordial to me. So yeah, I'm not sure
that she knew who she was talking to, but the end of the week came and went, and then
another week passed, and like they said, nothing, and all of a sudden, out of the blue, I get
this voicemail from Marcus Bachmann, you know, which needless to say surprised me quite a
bit.
David: So let's actually take a listen to that voicemail now so our audience can get
a sense of what was said. Let's take a listen.
Marcus Bachmann: Hello, John Becker, this is Dr. Marcus Bachmann. I received a message
from our billing department asking me if we would write off the two no-show fees for 7/7/11
and 7/12/11. We will not be writing those off, so you do owe those no-show fees, and
we would expect payment as soon as possible, otherwise we will have to turn it over to
collections.
David: OK, so then you actually ended up calling, and you spoke directly with Marcus Bachmann,
isn't that right?
Becker: Yeah, that's correct. The number that he told me to call back was the clinic number,
but the number that he... that the call originated from was a number that was not at all related
to the clinic, so I thought hmm, I'll try calling that number back instead. And sure
enough, it ended up being Marcus Bachmann's home phone number. And so yes, he and I spoke
for about seven minutes on the phone.
David: And in this, was there any reference made to the investigation, to the fact that
you exposed the sham therapy practices that they're doing? I mean, what was that conversation
like?
Becker: Yes, while the billing associate that I spoke with previously I don't think knew
who I was, Marcus Bachmann most definitely did.
Yeah, he... there was one point in the conversation where I said Marcus, this is $150, what is
this really about? Are you, you know, are you upset with me? What's going on? And you
know, I said, you know, we're not asking for any trouble here, I'm just asking for you
to lift these fraudulent charges. And he goes, you're not asking for any trouble? You came
in here under a lie, under a false pretense, and you're telling me that you don't have
an agenda? You know, so he, yeah, he clearly knew who he was talking to.
And from the tone of our conversation, it seemed pretty clear that this was still an
intensely personal issue for him even this many months later, which...
David: Well, that's the thing, because Ned Flarity, who sends me great research information
all the time, ran some numbers, and he said if this place has about 25 therapists, as
they claim to, and if each of them is billing about 20 hours a week 4.3 weeks per month,
and as you know, they charge something around $70-something per session, you're talking
about $33,000 a week that this clinic is bringing in, it sounds a little odd for the owner to
be personally calling people over 150 bucks when they're bringing in over 30 grand a week.
It just doesn't make any sense.
Becker: Exactly. And, you know, I hadn't heard those numbers, but they do make perfect sense.
And for such a small amount, it's very, you know, very, very out of the ordinary, especially
since I was told that the therapist himself, who, you know, in my case was Timothy, would
be making the call and not Marcus.
I guess that the only explanation I could think of in terms of why he was calling himself
was because it must've been a personal thing for him, because certainly politically it
doesn't make any sense. At a time when her campaign is kind of tanking, you'd think that
they would want a breath of fresh air rather than, you know, relitigating embarrassing
public relations, you know, battles that, you know, from months ago that had already
kind of played out in the media.
David: Absolutely. Hey, and real quick, in the last few seconds, are you going to pay
the $150? What's going on with this?
Becker: We are not going to pay that money because of the fact that the appointments
were canceled in accordance with their stated policies, and if Marcus Bachmann... we sent
him a cease and desist letter, and if he decides to pursue this further, we'd be happy to take
the opportunity to expose the ex-gay agenda in court.
To add one little other thing quickly, I thought the most interesting part of the conversation
Marcus and I had was at one point, he made a little off-the-cuff remark, you know, where
he said, because he'd be like, "John, John, John," very, very condescending, like a parent
to an errant child, and he said you know, maybe someday in the future, you and I will
be able to sit down and talk about this together.
And I didn't think he was serious, but I jumped right on that, because I'd also love the opportunity
to introduce him to my husband and talk to him about the dangers of ex-gay therapy in
person. So who knows? Maybe Marcus and I will get to sit down face-to-face for a chit-chat.
David: I think that would be the best possible outcome from this entire thing, and hopefully
there's video of that if it ever does happen. Incredible stuff. John Becker, Communications
Director for Truth Wins Out. www.TruthWinsOut.org is the website. Great to talk to you again.
Keep up the good work.
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