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My name is Rukhsana Ahmad. I'm a writer based in London
And were you born in the UK? Em, no. I was born in Karachi, Pakistan
And where did you grow up? Em, I grew up in Pakistan. I came as an adult
to live here after my marriage. So, how did you get involved in theatre?
Em, basically I started writing. Em, first I worked as a freelance journalist briefly,
em, and then, Ravinder Randhawa invited me to the Asian Women's Writers Workshop, and,
I think, em, Tara Arts had put out a call to the Asian Women Writers Workshop saying,
er they were looking for writers so I applied for the position, em, and em, he interviewed
me, and er, we got on really well, and em, he asked me to write a piece for them which
was a theatre in education piece. In fact, it was a very interesting way of working because
the company devised, around em, the concept of the play. It was called Sepoy's Salt, Captain's
Malt. And em, it was based on letters through, the censor's reports on letters from the Indian
soldiers written back home. And it was em, a journey of discovery for me because it was
shocking to see what kind of things had been censored
So it was a kind of, would you say, Westernised form of theatre that you were writing for.
I mean do you do this in Karachi? Er, no, no. I just qualified and taught for
a year or two at the university, em, teaching English, and English literature. So that's
all I'd done. I was still quite young. Er and then of course I lived here for a few
years before I started writing. I had my children. So em yah, I think, em, I had done a little
bit of creative writing but very little theatre, but I'd read drama. But I was a theatre enthusiast
so I had seen some plays. Em but in Pakistan there weren't that many opportunities to see
work. A bit more than there are now because, er the British Council would sometimes tour
a project with the American Art er, er what was it called? The American Embassy's cultural
education I think, PACC it was called, Pak American Cultural Centre.
So did any of the indigenous em Pakistani em em, influence you when you started work
Em, not hugely, not hugely, because really folk theatre over there is quite crude. It's
very funny. It's hilar it's actually all quite jokey. I've I'd seen two, em, two or three
things I thin, at melas, you know like, festivals, as a child, but er I don't think I, I would
call it theatre? The Urdu dra stage plays, er were held at a theosophical society hall
which is still, em, is a performance space in Karachi which used to exist at that time
and that was also quite comic. I think my own vision as a writer is quite dark. I think
I write more serious stuff. So, em, I don't think the style was, em, a big influence.
Though I think the literature is in my writing. And because I read quite a lot of Urdu literature.
I was quite a voracious reader as a child. Em, and, em, continued to read Urdu literature
for quite a while. I still do. But I think I have more of a connection with Urdu poetry
now. So your first play was written when?
Em, I think it might have been '85 or '86. Em, I need to check back on dates but I'm
not so sure. But I think '84 or '85 maybe. And you use English as a language
Yes, I do, yes. Er, I mean, it it was my medium of instruction as a child as well, so, and
I read English at university, and I came here and did a Masters also in English literature
So you were telling me about the cast who was in this.
Em yes. So that was one of the first pieces that I did, and I still, I I I've come across
those actors over the years in various capacities. En there was Shakuntala Ramanee, and er there
was Dominic Rai, and Rez Kabir who were the performers. And I think Tara Arts continued
to commission me for two or three other pieces I did for them at that time. A couple of things
based on Manto and...and I think a couple of them, couple of the pieces were produced.
So what what did they, did you feel that there was, therefore, a distinct theme of South
Asian theatre developing in this country during your time.
Hhh em I think it was very much identity based theatre at that time. Em, I think we were
all pre-occupied with em issues of identity. These were basically I remember at my interview,
em, Jatinder mentioning, em something about the death of Gurdip Chaggar, and em, really
we felt that things were bad. There was also I think during that period, I can't remember
the exact date of it, the Enoch Powell speech of Rivers of Blood, which most people will
remember, em, and em, you felt a little bit threatened. I think the interesting difference
from then and now is that at that time, South Asians saw themselves as a much more cohesive
group. I think it was an opportunistic alliance if you like, but people saw, em, the South
Asian identity as one. Basically you greeted a brown person if if you saw them, with a
little bit more warmth because you felt there might be some empathy there. And er all that,
with the increase of the number of immigrants, has gone. And I think there's a little bit
more factionalisation now. So you have more the Indian diaspora, the Pakistani diaspora,
the Chinese diaspora, and so forth. And how do you fell South Asian theatre has
changed therefore, in your time, when you first started.
Em, it's very difficult to be pronouncing about things in a global sense, and I hate
to generalize, but I think, em, I think this thing of of more factional identity has permeated
into the theatre, in to theatre as well. Em, I think 9/11 had it has had a huge impact
in terms of severing, if you like, em, the happy unity that existed between Indians and
Pakistanis. So do you think still a continuous common
thread amongst the different factions. Em, I think there are common thread threads
because often when people start writing identity issues are still on the surface. I think er,
usually a lot of writers start with exploring their own personal experience before they
dare to write about observed experience. I may not be right about this generalization.
I think em, people vary in their levels of confidence, and the more confident you are,
the more extensively your range will broaden out, I feel. Em, I may not be write about
this. But what about your own artistic journey.
Did you sense that happening Yes, absolutely. I mean I think I speak from
within as well. I think, em, I was much more hesitant to write about, for example, male
characters, until I, I had done a few stories, and then I started adopting the male point
of view, or the point of view from a character from a different race. Because you begin to
see the common threads, the common threads of humanity that we all share, and the common
universal themes. It becomes easier, perhaps, to do that. I don't know.
So that brings me neatly to Kali Theatre of course. It's for women writers.
Yes. I think er the 80s were very strong in feminism and er women were very concerned,
em, that there hadn't been enough provision for them in the theatre. I used to be a member
of the Theatre Writers em, of the Writers' Guild of Great Britain and a member of the
Theatre Committee of that Guild. I basically got a membership card quite soon, because
of the commissions, and I think it was a very interesting time to be involved, er with the
Guild. There were very few Black or Brown people, em, of any hue in...in the Writers'
Guild. It was a very, er, White organization. And a writer called Bilash invited me to join
and he said you must come, and you must take part, and ask me to, em be active. So I joined
the Theatre Committee and I remember the research at that point saying, em, that plays written
by women were point five percent of the number of productions that were made every year.
Point five percent. They were all written by men. And I think working in the theatre
and learning by experience, and making my mistakes, made me also see that theatre is
an artform where you do need a structure of support. You do need collaborators. You do
need the stepping stones. Em, it's a very specific, very craft based form. Anybody can
pick up a pen and start writing...a piece of prose or even a script. Ut to write good
theatre, you do need to understand the structures and I felt like I...er hadn't had the support
and Tara had been fantastic in terms of opening that door and just having people to work with,
even though all my initial pieces were theatre in education pieces or community theatre as
we used to call it then. I was invited to come in to write about Pakistanis on Worcestershire,
Pakistanis in Cleveland. You know, em, I would go and interview people, talk to them about
their experiences and write a play that interested them...er that was of local interest. Em,
I felt that it would have been good if there had been some kind of a training ground. Now
that time there was a company called Monstrous Regiment which actually went bust soon after.
They commissioned me to write a play, er, which they did not produce, partly because,
they were coming apart as a company and they were falling apart, there was no funding,
they were leaving, their own careers had taken off, and the piece was also very raw. Sorry!
Em, so em, I think Rita Woolf wanted to produce it. She heard about this play and wanted to
produce it. Em, and, er she asked me if I would be a partner with her if she set up
a theatre company. That's how Kali about. Em, and I think, in the process of producing
that play, and workshopping it, which Rita helped to do, em, we had quite a lot of actors
involved, and we had two or three different readings. We workshopped it for a little while
before I finally got the script right. Em, it came about that we decided that it would
be good to also set up a support structure for other women, so Kali changed direction
and became much more about em, helping to develop Asian women writers...in that, in
this particular artform. And you, you have had, em, quite a wonderful
transnational experience. Having been brought up in Karachi and now living in London. How
has that impacted in, on your work? Em...I think you er always have er both eyes
looking at different things. You do have a very divided vision, em, and you're always,
em, looking at the experience as a Third World citizen as well. I know people over here complain
that you do not have enough commitment to the society, I think this is not true. In
fact, the diaspora often carries over some of the values and we are criticized back home
for not being Pakistani enough, an here you would be criticised for not being Asian, er
British enough. So em, I think, em, you do have, em, a habit of telling stories that
are multi stranded. I think the main difference in our cultures is not so much that there
aren't people with a western bent, bend of mind, em, in, India or Pakistan there are,
and however post-colonial we might be, there is an impact, there is a cost of living here.
You do have your commitment to the West, er, which may run deeper, and in some cases, then
it does, and em, the Subcontinent itself, em, and but I think, em, you end up, em, having
always a sense of being the other, and having a sense of, what it, what it feels like to
be the other. And so, when you write your work, do you have
a very clear sense of you your audience is? Phhh, ah that's a very tough one. I don't
think you write, em, for an audience accept an ideal one that really understand who you
are. I mean your ideal audience are people who think and work like you, but on the other
hand, you're also trying to disseminate em, ideas to a wider audience that you want to,
er, reach. Er, but no I don't have a clear sense of who my audience are
But when you start your research on your plays, likr you said you've been to different regions
to do that, to talk to people, em are you very conscious that they want to see an outcome
of what you are doing there with them? That was great because then you knew exactly
who your audience were. I think with a community theatre, you have a built in audience, em,
and it's fantastic. When we were running Kali Theatre Company, we always, when we when this
question came up in discussions with the Arts Council or within the company we always felt
that we would like mixed audiences. We were not playing just for the Asians. The the purpose
of the theatre was to build bridges across community groups, em and I think that's what
most writers hope to do. Em, yah, but I think it's very difficult to know em it's very difficult
to be specific. There will be Asians who hate my work, and there will be Asians who like
my work, and equally, there will be British people who will like the work, and, it will
speak to them. It's a question of who opens up their heart to you.
But also we are looking at a whole range of aud, and mainstream audiences really, here,
in this case. You need the support of the mainstream, marketing, the press, em the venues.
I mean how did you find that? I mean, did you find any, did you get any support from
them? Hhh...phh, I think it varies, em you, I don't
think the mainstream's interested in minority theatres is my frank opinion. And I don't
say this with any bitterness. I think it is em how it is. We are all interested in ourselves
more than, it's like growing up, and the more mature society is, the more able it is to
empathise, and reach across, if you like, to other communities. And I think em, it's
kind of a case of one step forward and two steps back. Er, at the time when I started
working multiculturalism was a very popular thing. It was the buzz word. And because of
it being multicultural theatre, we were being asked all the time to come and talk to, tell,
come and tell stories to children in school, come and talk to them about writing, have
young people's workshops here and there and everywhere. It was kept very busy and earned
a rea reasonable living from er, being a writer in residence, in various places, various communities,
and I worked in Cleveland, worked in Newcastle, worked in Harrow, em, and, it it it was fantastic
because, er when you go to work as a writer in residence, you work you worked with and
you talked to people of all hues, and it is a very mixed audience and that's how it should
be. Em, but I think there there has been some regression from there. There is a lot of anti-immigration
feeling now, em, and it's very sad to see that regression.
So why do you think that this is happening? I think it's economic and it's driven by politics
and it's driven by er, the new kind of...horror that has been constructed by the West in the
name of Islam. So Islam is always perceived as, excuse me, (coughs) er Muslims are perceived
as always dangerous, er, unreliable, the enemy, so em, there's a lot of alienation from Muslims,
and a lot of antipathy, a lot of hostile coverage in the press, which has also produced a, a
backlash, against migrants in general. I mean, I think I was shocked. Recently I was in the
States, and em, em, the Miss America award, beauty conest award, went to an Indian woman,
and people were saying why have they gone and given this to a Muslim woman, er and what
do they mean by what has she contributed, she's probably, and she's not a Muslim even,
you know, and you kind of think, (clears throat) this is the level of prejudice that the world
has come to, so em... So do you think that all the work that you've
been doing for the past few decades, has gone of, in a sense become fruitless.
Em, no I don't think so. I think the work remains. I think, em, it would be (clears
throat)...it would be foolish to think that nothing has changed. I think things have improved
as well. There are people who have taken us backwards and there are people who have gone
further and in a sense the mainstream has opened up much more. I hoped, I'd always hoped
that Kali's, Theatre Company itself would become indispensable, would become dispensable,
beause, or would not be needed, because the mainstream had opened doors. Em, more doors
were open to Asian writers. To an extent it is happening, the fact that someone like Indhu
Rubasingham is running a theatre company, em, the, you know...
Madani Younis. Tricycle Theatre. Em...exactly. So, er er running a theatre.
I mean, em, she's running, she's got er control of a decent artistic space is significant.
Em, I think the Ovalhouse has played a major part in presenting work. We, as cu as a company,
Kali worked with them for ten years, and they've been, they were very supportive to us. Soho
Theatre frequently programmes stuff. Arcola programmes stuff. So, I think in a way it's
better that there shouldn't be divisions. So, I don't think that nothing's improved.
I just think that politics and economics keep driving us downwards.
But do you think social media also plays a part in the sense it's easy to tweet something
that's really subversive and reactionary and quite extreme.
20:20 RA: Social media and any kind of of visits to Facebook can be quite depressing
'cause you see sometimes such negative coverage, em, of things, em, but mainstream media's
pretty bad, as well. I think apart from a, a handful of journalists here and there, and
they're often, em, not liked by people who want to, in the end we read and like stuff
that we want to read and see, or hear. And somehow we want the arts to confirm our own
views. So it means that, em, people who read and enjoy or, em, see work produced by Asian
writers, are often people who are open minded and we're often preaching to the converted.
But er, at the same time, if you look at the number of mixed marriages that are there,
the number of relationships that exist, the number of organisations that have had to force
their doors open because there's so much talent and so much ability and em em, so much em,
if if you like, em, energy, from the minorities, em, that they would be foolish not to. And
interestingly, the commercial world itself recognizes this, so you often have, em, very
young CEOs who are of Asian, South East Asian origin, who are doing really well in the mainstream,
and that begins to have an impact. That has a trickle down effect as well.
But also social media can be very unifying, you know...
It can be, em, it can be also, fracturing because people tend to again, em, cohere around
ideas that they, that they like. So, em, I don't know what the solutions are. It's always
difficult to know what the solutions are but... Because you started work, em, your creative
output in a time of non-social media. Now social media is rampant. Have you ever considered
using it as a tool for your work? Er, hhh, I would like to but I think, em,
and em, perhaps em, I do in the sense that if I have, em, something that interests me
I will promote it, on Facebook for example, I don't use, er I don't tweet although I have
a Twitter account. It's just so time consuming, I feel like em I'm, there will be a time when
I will be using it more. I mean the process of getting a website done. I mean, my own
work is across genres. I do plays, I do em, books, em, I have translated, em, so I have
a wide range of interest. Em I, I'm a translator as well, from Urdu into English, em so em
I think it would be useful to have a website that kind of enlists all the work and where
people can get information about my work. You mention fracturing of communities. Em,
so how do you feel that this em fracturing em Is is, is helping em tell stories from
these fractured communities? Do you feel it's it's a useful thing? Em or do you find that
it just positions people in niches. Em, it depends on how they want to position
themselves. I think em, writers are quite powerful in a sense that, you make your own
space. So I I don't feel em, em constricted by the fracturing. Em, I think I have my level
of empathy for, things, em, that;s South Asian, that's wider than Pakistani because I don't
think I like the pra parochialism of nationalism. Er, I mean I do think nationalism and patriotism
are quite parochial instruments of identity, and they are divisive, so I do keep myself
away from them, em, and I think I want to preserve my own individuality as a writer
which, which has a com Pakistani component to it because I was born there, in Pakistan
and raised there, and a lot of my imaginative life still continues to be there. I visit
there regularly two or three times a year sometimes as my mother is now quite ill. Em,
but em I think, on the other hand, em, I love all things Indian as well. I, my family were
originally from India, em my mother's were from Dehli and em, and I loved visiting them
and going to see the relatives there and feel that there is so much shared, so much in common,
that that's also important to connect with. A lot of my friends are Indian. Er, my closest
friends are I suppose British Asians from various backgrounds. So, I think all of our
identities are very, kind of multi stranded now. Em, and I hope that one would not, never
be constricted by one's origins. Talking about creating space, your own space,
tell us a bit about SALIDAA. Em, well, SALIDAA came about because Lakshmi
Holmström once actually said to me, oh, she thinks it's really important that there should
be an archive of South Asian work. And basically I was in a position to pick up the phone and
ring the Literature Officer at the Arts Council because I was doing some work for them on
a magazines panel and I said to them, could they fund such a thing and they said, well,
we'll give you some seed money, and that seed money enabled us to organise, em, an application,
tsk em, for the digital, er the new, the new media grant that was, there was a body at
that time which was designed to help em, people make, inroads into new media, and they gave
us money to set up, em, some kind of a digital archive so that that's what it was. In fact,
em...my, em, one of my great friends, Rahila Gupta, er, also knew quite a lot about media
and new new media and technology. She and Paola Marchionni, who used to be the, er,
used to be a research assistant at the library, in the Commonwealth, Common Common Commonwealth
Library, Commonwealth Institute used to have a library, and I think she was a research
associate actually over there. They helped to put together the application, the original
application which got us the first grant to set up SALIDAA. Em, and we invited various
people to come on the Board, and em, basically by default I became the Chair, and I found
myself doing quite a lot of work, he he, which prevented me from writing so I had to leave
after ten years, I had to bow out. But, em, I think I'm pleased that the organization
has survived and Lakshmi has er, continued to work with them. Em, and the Board is now
Chaired by Shyama Perera. So you really started something that was quite
radical in those days Yes. So er, but it's absolutely, em, accidental
if you like. If Lakshmi had not, and I was like you've always been talking about, let's
actually get together and do something. And there were three or four of us women who had
kind of worked on it initially, myself, Lakshmi, Vayu Naidu and er Ranjana Ash at the very
first stage and then, a another group of wonderful women who helped to come and build it together,
and women who served on the Board and I think er Paola was very central in, Rahila too at
that stage. So you've been in the forefront of quite a
number of em very em em inspiring moves, er, I mean with especially with Kali as well,
for women. I mean was that the first em, theatre company for women em...
It wa, em, I don't know if it was the first because Tamasha came about at the same time.
I do remember saying to Kristine and Sudha that let's get together and make one company,
it will be stronger. But they said, no no, your objectives as a company are different.
Ours are entertainment and hence we've chosen the name Tamasha. Em, but I er can't claim
credit for originating the com the ideas, but em, I love working with people. I'm actually
quite an extrovert as well as being an introvert, er which writers often are, but I think I,
I like working with people that's why I love the theatre. Em, it's very enjoyable to work
with actors and have the support of other people. And I've had a lot of fun. I mean
I think. I...had the habit of also roping in people that I knew. So I would ring up
and say look, Rahila, please can you help with this, or Ravi can you help with this,
and they did. Even with the er, with Kali Theatre Company, people came to workshops
or did admin or whatever I needed help with. So em, I...it's been partly altruistic, partly
self-motivated because, or self-interested if you like, because I've enjoyed doing the
work immensely as well. In fact it was a privilege to do it really.
Yeah, but if you enjoy work that's been is not, em, altruistic as well, because it can
be, and also it, you've been involved in quite a few pioneering em em, er em, actions really
by by pulling people together, and and form forming something that's that can move forward
as a group. I mean that is quite a skill in itself.
Yes. I think I I'm I, as I said, I love working with people and I suppose I must have some
people's skills, but em, ...ultimately I think it's because I believe in artistic communities.
And I think I t do believe, em, and one of my, the formative influences in my own work
as a writer was the Asian Womens Writers Workshop, which Ravinder Randhawa had set up and from
which I learnt hugely as an artist. Because I learnt this whole thing of the usefulness
of cooperatives if you like. So looking back, what do you, do you have
any memories of anything that has particular significance for you, in your own work in
all in your own journey, that has really formed, em what you are doing.
Em, you mean em, a personal life experience thing or a personal em...
Er...more in the creative side perhaps... Em, hhh em, I think it's very difficult to
single out any one thing, but, em, I think em...em something...
Well we have singled out two for you, Kali and SALIDAA.
But those are, those are organisations and they have an imact impact in the sense that
I mean once Kali was formed, I also had to keep writing work for the theatre, although
I kept saying, oh no, I want to do fiction. In fact I published my first novel in 1996
I think or something like that, and kept hankering to do that. But I kept getting radio jobs
which were, em, adaptations or whatever and, original plays and they made me money and
I needed to, survive as well, em, just have, em something that gave me credibility as a
writer and income that gave me, credibility as a writer. Em, but I think the publication
of em, Midnight's Children was quite a new had had an impact. I think again Satanic Verses
and the publication of that was quite important, quite an important moment because again, it
was very divisive, for communities. Em, I think all kinds of communalism has always
had an impact on me because I hate it. I really do hate it. Em, communalism and parochialism
are bigger sins, em than any kind of sin, against God. Against anyone's god in my book.
So I think they've had an impact as well, so em...em I suppose looking back, em...theatre
partnerships have been very important to me. Em the person who directed some of my Kali
plays, Helen Helena Bell, who now runs Pursued By A Bear, em has been a very nurturing French
friend, as a theatre practitioners, and that friendship has been very sustaining. Em, Vayu
Naidu with whom I've worked on em Mistaken. She produced er my play about Annie Besant's
court mistake and which toured India. And that, em she is a writer of Indian origin
and that bond has been very valuable to me. Em and basically Chris Banfield directed that
piece and that was an important piece of writing for me. Em, I think because it dealt with
subject matter that was a) historical; b) anticolonial; c) feminist; and all of those
strands have been important in my work. Em I deals with Annie Besant. It deals with Annie
Besant's relationship with India, with Gandhi, with the Freedom Movement. Em, and em, it
deals with tolerance as a subject. And tolerance and religion have been big themes for me.
I've written quite a lot about them. So to round up, is there anything else you'd
like to add to all that? Em, well I mean I think em, I've seen my progress
as a writer kind of only half way done or two thirds of the way done. I feel like I've
still got work to do and work to finish. I'm working on a film script. Em, at the moment,
em, which I don't know if it will ever ever be produced, but again, that's been a very
interesting journey. It has been a good professional change, gear change. Em, I'm working on a
novel that still needs polishing, er which I hope will be published soon. If not here
then it will end up being published as a digital book, or a Kindle or India or wherever, but,
em, I'm hoping to place it here. Certainly my agent will be sending it out, even as we
speak, but hehe, let's see where where we we get to. Em and, it would be nice to do
something in the theatre again as well, which I would love to do.
Best of luck for the future. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure
talking to you.