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JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, welcome. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ROBERT GATES: Thank you.
JIM LEHRER: I take it you support the presidentís decision on the Afghan troop withdrawals.
ROBERT GATES: I do. I do. I think it provides the troops ñ weíve had a lot of success
in accomplishing our mission. We have more work to do. We still have more than half the
fighting season this year to go, and this gives us most of ñ most of next year to both
beat back the Taliban further but also improve the quality and quantity of the Afghan security
forces. JIM LEHRER: In the final analysis, was it
a difficult decision for the president to make? Were there many options on the table
for him to choose from? ROBERT GATES: There were. There were. And
in fact, Gen. Petraeus himself offered, at my request, a number of options that began
as early as next July, a year from this July, and running into 2013. So the president had
a wide array of options in front of him. JIM LEHRER: Did you have an option? Was there
a Gates option? ROBERT GATES: Not going in, no. I was listening
and paying attention. And Ö JIM LEHRER: Well, I heard that ñ coming out
that you were ñ you played the role of a compromiser ñ in other words, a little bit
of this, a little bit of that ñ between the two or three factions. Am I right about that?
ROBERT GATES: Well, I tried ñ I was a strong advocate of ñ as I listened to the debate
go forward, I became a strong advocate as the end of summer as one that struck a balance
between our military needs and sustainability here at home.
JIM LEHRER: The end of summer ñ for what to happen at the end of summer?
ROBERT GATES: For the surge to come out. JIM LEHRER: For the surge to come out.
ROBERT GATES: I think that itís important to remember, that will still leave some 68,000
American troops in Afghanistan. And just as an example, we have increased the size of
the Afghan security forces by over a hundred thousand during the last year.
So the whole idea of this strategy from the very beginning was for us to come in heavy
with the surge, beat back the Taliban momentum ñ and particularly in the south and southwest,
Helmand, Kandahar, in that area ñ get more aggressive in taking on the infiltration routes
coming across from Pakistan in the east of Afghanistan and increasingly partner with
the Afghan security forces, the Afghan army. We also have the Afghan local police that
are developing and are potentially a game changer because theyíre locals to the villages.
So weíve seen a lot of progress this year. We still have a lot of work to do. Thereís
still a lot of hard fighting to go. But I think weíve made ñ I think weíve made pretty
good progress. And the whole idea of this thing has been between now and 2014, the end
of 2014, to transition the security lead in Afghanistan to the Afghans. Itís their country.
And I will say theyíre fighting and dying for their country. Theyíre dying roughly
at a rate two and a half, three times as many soldiers as our coalition.
JIM LEHRER: Did you have the feeling, either directly or indirectly, from the president
that the issue of kind of war fatigue for Americans also played a part in this final
decision? ROBERT GATES: I think weíre all mindful of
that and of the folks sitting around that table, maybe me more than any of them, except
maybe the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mike Mullen ñ Iíve been in this job
four and a half years. I took it over when Iraq was in really dire straits. So it has
been a long haul. But the point Iíve tried to make to people
is, they need to understand ñ I know we talk about a 10-year war in Afghanistan, but the
truth of the matter is, after weíd ousted the Taliban in 2002 and also al-Qaida from
Afghanistan, the U.S. sort of turned its attention away from Afghanistan and really didnít turn
back with the full resources, a full strategy and so on, until really early in 2009.
JIM LEHRER: When you leave office, which is a week from today, are you going to leave
with a feeling of confidence that down the road, this Afghanistan mission that the United
States and NATO are involved in is in fact going to be successful?
ROBERT GATES: It is in my view, if you decideñ if you define success the way I think we should,
which is that we have prevented the Taliban from forcefully overthrowing ñ forcibly overthrowing
the government of Afghanistan; that the Afghan security forces can secure their own territory
and prevent al-Qaida or other extremist groups from coming back and using it as a safe haven.
I believe thatís an achievable mission by the end of 2014, and I think weíre making
good headway in that direction. Anything else that happens ñ itís like the
president said in his speech last night. Anything else that happens in terms of goodness, whether
itís roads or anything else, frankly is peripheral to the achievement of that fundamental goal:
preventing Afghanistan from becoming a launch pad for attacks against the United States
and our allies and partners. JIM LEHRER: And you believe there are enough
troops, after the withdrawals and according to the plan, if it goes as scheduled, to get
this job done? ROBERT GATES: Absolutely, particularly in
combination with the increase in the size of the Afghan security forces.
JIM LEHRER: Is it correct to characterize this final decision as a compromise between,
on the one side, Gen. Petraeus and the military leaders and, on the other side, Vice President
Biden and some of the Democrats in Congress and others who wanted a more escalated withdrawal?
Is that correct? Is that about ñ is that about it?
ROBERT GATES: Well, I think one reason that Iíve maybe been useful to two very different
presidents is that Iíve never gotten into who struck John and whoís up, whoís down,
who won, who lost on these kinds of debates. It was a rich debate. The president heard
all points of view, and he made a decision. JIM LEHRER: So there was no winner in this
debate? ROBERT GATES: Iíll just not go down that
road. (Laughing)
JIM LEHRER: OK. All right. Finally, on Afghanistan, let me ask you this.
What were the realistic ñ realistic chances ñof somewhere down the line there being a
negotiated settlement in this fight with the Taliban?
ROBERT GATES: I think those chances are probably good.
JIM LEHRER: Good? ROBERT GATES: I think we have to keep the
pressure on the Taliban. I think the death of bin Laden is a potential help in this respect.
There was a personal relationship between bin Laden and Mullah Omar, the head of the
Taliban. And you know, the Taliban are in the position ñ one of the things that the
Afghan government and the coalition demand is that the Taliban disavow any connection
or support with al-Qaida going forward. Thatís one of the redlines.
You know, if I were an ñ if I were a Taliban, Iíd say, what did al-Qaida ever do for me
except get me kicked out of Afghanistan? The United States wouldnít have gone in to overthrow
the Taliban if it hadnít been for the ñ for al-Qaida launching the attack against
us from there. So I think that ñ I think these ñ very often these kinds of conflicts
come to an end through a compromise or through negotiations, and the truth is, you know,
if you look at Iraq and what happened in Anbar province, we ended up ñ the people who were
shooting at us we ended up partnering with JIM LEHRER: And you think thatís very possible
in this case? ROBERT GATES: I do.
JIM LEHRER: All right. Well, letís go to some other subject now,
Mr. Secretary. Libya. What do you think of the talk by some in Congress of voting to
withhold funds for the execution or further execution of U.S. military operations with
NATO against Libya? ROBERT GATES: Well, I think it would be a
mistake. I think once we have our forces engaged to deny funding for them would be a mistake.
These allies, particularly the British and the French, and the Italians for that matter,
have really been a big help to us in Afghanistan. They consider Libya a vital interest for them.
Our alliance with them is a vital interest for us. So as they have helped us in Afghanistan,
it seems to me that we are in a position of helping them with respect to Libya. And to
cut off funding for the U.S. forces in that context I think would be a mistake.
JIM LEHRER: Is ñ how close do you think the NATO force is to making it ñ or getting rid
of Gadhafi, just to be straight about it? I mean, how close is he to leaving?
ROBERT GATES: Well, I think ñ I think the ñ based on everything we see, the government
gets shakier every day. His forces have been significantly diminished. The opposition is
expanding the areas under their control. I donít think anybody can predict when heíll
fall or leave. Personally, my opinion is he wonít leave voluntarily, but somebody in
the army or his family will decide that itís time for a change.
JIM LEHRER: But until that change comes, there will be no real what you call successful ending
to this NATO military exercise, correct? ROBERT GATES: No, the end ñ the end of this
has to be Gadhafi leaving, one way or another. JIM LEHRER: Yeah. What is it ñ just to ask
the question directly, there have been an awful lot of drones that have exploded and
other things have exploded in the Gadhafi compound and all of that, and itís hard for
a lot of people to believe that getting Gadhafi the hard way ñ in other words, killing him
ñ is not on the agenda. Is it ñ is it not on the agenda?
ROBERT GATES: No, I donít ñ I ñ JIM LEHRER: ñ unofficially if not officially?
ROBERT GATES: Well, I certainly havenít been looking at the target list, but everything
Iíve been told is that those are legitimate command-and-control targets in his ñ first
of all, this is a huge compound. Itís not likeÖ
JIM LEHRER: Sure. ROBERT GATES: Ölike that weíre hitting him
in the villa at Abbottabad in Pakistan where bin Laden was.
JIM LEHRER: You talked about the ñ in more general terms about the military, and youíve
said ñ in recent interviews youíve talked many times about that the U.S. military is
exhausted. Explain what you mean by that. ROBERT GATES: Well, we have a lot of people
in the military, and particularly in combat arms, who have been on repeated rotations.
I run into people routinely who have had three, four, five, six rotations to Iraq and Afghanistan,
and they come home for a year, theyíre deployed for a year. So the strain on them and on their
families is ñ and while theyíre home, theyíre preparing to deploy again. And so there has
been no real extended period of time ñ now, thatís beginning to improve with the drawdown
of 100,000 troops in Iraq, but it will probably be this fall before most Army units get to
one year deployed, two years at home. And itís just the repetition of this over all
these years in Iraq and Afghanistan that has ñ that has really taken a toll.
But itís also true even of the Air Force and the Navy. For example, the Air Force has
been at war since 1991, either Desert Storm or then enforcing the no-fly zone, and then
Afghanistan, and then ñ and then Iraq in 2003. The Navy has been deployed ñ our ñ
many of our aircraft carriers, which are supposed to deploy for six months at a time and six
months at home, many of them now have eight-and-a-half-month rotations. So people are getting tired
JIM LEHRER: Youíve said also that youíve become increasingly cautious about the use
of military forces, the deployment of U.S. forces. Is that the result of this as well?
ROBERT GATES: Well, I ñ what Iíve ñ what Iíve been trying to describe is that, first
of all, I would never be cautious if we were attacked or were about to be attacked. I would
be the first guy in line saying we must do whatever it takes to deal with this threat.
However, where we have an elective opportunity, where we see a situation where we decide itís
in our interests, even if we havenít been threatened, to take some action ñ thatís
where I think Iíve become more cautious. JIM LEHRER: And Libya fits that description,
does it not? ROBERT GATES: Thatís probably fair.
JIM LEHRER: All right. And you think that this should be U.S. policy to ñ at this stage
of the game, to be very, very careful and not do any elective type of military action?
ROBERT GATES: Well, I wouldnít go that far, because you donít know what kind of ñwhat
kind of situations may emerge. JIM LEHRER: Sure.
ROBERT GATES: And, of course, ultimately itís the presidentís decision. He has to decide
whatís in our national interest. JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, finally, youíve
also spoken and ñ a year or so ago a speech at Duke University, where you talked about
the fact that for most Americans, our wars, Americaís wars have become an abstraction
because so few of Americans and their families are directly involved. Is that ñ is that
ñ is that hurting us as a country, do you think?
ROBERT GATES: Well, I think that ñ I think that it makes most Americans, the 99 percent
of Americans who are not serving unaware of the strains and the stresses on our military
families. And so what Iíve been trying to do and what Mrs. Biden and Mrs. Obama and
the chairman and his wife ñ all these folks, are trying to do is to ñ is to try and get
that other 99 percent to ñ they all say they support the troops, but itís not just enough
to say it. Go out and find one of them and give them a job. If they need some repairs
on their house, do that. Mow the grass. Find some action you can take as a citizen who
appreciates our military to help those families and particularly the families of those who
are deployed. Every town in America has somebody from the National Guard whoís probably deployed.
So thereís somebody out there that they can help. And actions always speak louder than
words. JIM LEHRER: So youíre not suggesting some
kind of mandatory national service or something like that that would force people to be more
aware of war? ROBERT GATES: No. Speaking personallyÖ
JIM LEHRER: Yes. ROBERT GATES: ÖI have always that there ought
to be some kind of mandatory national service, not necessarily in the military but to show
everybody that freedom isnít free, that everybody has an obligation to the nation as a community.
And so it could be military service, it could be teaching in rural or poor areas, it could
be nursing, it could be any kind of service projects ñ the Peace Corps, whatever, but
a period of service ñ working in our national parks or something ñ but a period of service
that basically gives back to the nation that has given its citizens so much.
JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, much has been written and said about your last four and a half years
as secretary of defense. And a lot of people have been assessing your performance. What
do you think of the way youíve performed as secretary of state the last ñ secretary
of defense the last four and half years? ROBERT GATES: Well, I would say that, you
know, thereís been a lot thatís happened over the last four and a half years. I will
say that I think that the thing Iím proudest of is what Iíve been able to do for our troops,
giving them these heavily armored vehicles, these Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles;
giving them one-hour medevac or less in Afghanistan; more reconnaissance capabilities to prevent
them from being attacked; trying to do whatever was necessary to help them accomplish their
mission and come home safely. JIM LEHRER: And you feel good about what youíve
done? ROBERT GATES: I feel very good about that.
JIM LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, thank you and good luck.
ROBERT GATES: Thanks very much.