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Transcription of interview with Kirk Sorensen on February 3, 2014.
Douglas Goldstein, CFPÆ, Financial Planner & Investment Advisor
Kirk Sorensen is the founder of Flibe Energy. He was previously at NASA and he does fascinating
work in the world of nuclear technology especially with thorium.
Douglas Goldstein, financial planner & investment advisor, interviewed Sorensen on Arutz Sheva
Radio.
Douglas Goldstein: Could you tell us why thorium is a good idea?
Kirk Sorensen: I think thorium is a great idea because thorium is earthís richest energy
resource. We have about 3 or 4 times more thorium in the earth than uranium and almost
all of that thorium can be converted to useful energy in the proper type of nuclear reactor
and this makes thorium the greatest energy resource that could be found anywhere in the
planet. Itís common, abundant and ubiquitous. Itís found in every country in the world
and a sufficient amount exists to power the human race for hundreds of thousands of years.
Douglas Goldstein: Does it really pay to be looking for something thatís nuclear and
frightens everyone and that would require us to do some radical changes in the overall
systems?
Kirk Sorensen: I think it does make sense to look at because nuclear technology can
be made to be very safe and thatís based on the technologies that we would hope to
use for this thorium reactor. They are passively safe. They shut down on their own and they
donít operate at high pressures and they donít really [straight] radionuclides to
the environment. They also make products other than electricity including important medicines
for radiotherapy so thereís number of reasons to be looking at this technology, not just
for electricity.
Douglas Goldstein: One of the complaints or fears that a lot of people have with any sort
of nuclear power is that it will eventually convert into some sort of weapon. Whatís
the story there?
Kirk Sorensen: The way thorium is used to make energy is it is exposed to neutrons and
itís converted into whatís called the fissile fuel, uranium 233. In this process, uranium
233 is always contaminated with another isotope of uranium called uranium 232 and this really
makes uranium 233 a very unattractive weaponís great material and this is because uranium
232 emits strong radioactive emissions that make it very unsuitable for this. In the course
of the history of nuclear energy, we have turned other fissile materials into materials
for weapons like plutonium 239, uranium 235, but uranium 233 nor thorium has ever been
used in any of the 70,000 operational nuclear weapons in the world and thereís a good reason
for that. So I believe it offers the safest choice from a non-proliferation perspective
as far as how to go for with peaceful nuclear energy that minimizes the threat of proliferation.
Douglas Goldstein: What about the risks of things that weíve seen recently like in Japan
and a few years ago, thereís Chernobyl, why would we not worry about that for building
nuclear power plants?
Kirk Sorensen: The fundamental reason this kind of thorium molten-salt reactors are so
different than what we saw in Fukushima is they have the ability to passively cool themselves.
What happened to Fukushima was is the circulation of cooling water was lost after the tsunami
hit the reactor and what that led to was a situation where the nuclear fuel melted down
and released radionuclides to the environment. The fuel thatís used in these thorium molten-salt
reactors is in a different chemical form that binds those radionuclides into the fuel and
prevents them from being released in to the environment. Furthermore, it doesnít [replier]
the active cooling that the kind of nuclear fuel used today requires. So it offers tremendous
possibilities for safety as far as being able to design the reactor in a way where it doesnít
require active cooling. It also doesnít operate at high pressure like our existing reactors.
That high pressure is a term that wants to drive radiation into the environment and by
operating at low pressure, thereís no what we call driving force in the reactor to mobilize
radiation out into the environment.
Douglas Goldstein: What would you say is the biggest risk of setting up thorium reactors?
Kirk Sorensen: I think right now the biggest risk is that we need to advance the technology
in the development perspective to the point where weíre ready to build large reactors
that can operate for extended periods of time. The technology while it was demonstrated in
the 50s and 60s is laying dormant for nearly 40 years and we really need to be energizing
a new generation of engineers with hands-on experience and how to utilize the materials,
the processing techniques and the operations of this new style of reactors because they
are in every way completely different than the kind of reactors we have today. These
are different fuel, they use a different power conversion system, and they have an entirely
different approach to the management and the protection of materials.
Douglas Goldstein: Is this a good investment?
Kirk Sorensen: I think thereís a very attractive investment case to be made for this technology
and the reason why in the near term is because of the important medicines that this technology
can generate. Radioisotopes that have application both in diagnostic procedures and in fighting
cancer and we at Flibe Energy believe that this will be the near-term revenue path for
the early reactor experiments that we need to build in order to demonstrate advanced
technology.
We need to have a reactor that is actively undergoing efficient reaction. Whether or
not, we convert that thermal energy into electricity or not, in the early stages isnít really
an important part of our program. What weíre looking at is advancing the technology and
simultaneously making these important medicines that are commonly used around the world. About
30 million procedures a year take place that use a particularly important radio medicine
called molybdenum-99 and itís one of the things that will be made in these reactors
during operation.
We project that the revenues from the medical radioisotopes will help us to grow and to
develop the larger reactors that will be needed to generate the electricity that the world
needs.
Douglas Goldstein: Why would there be people or energy companies for example that would
really grab hold of this if itís so potentially economically profitable?
Kirk Sorensen: We hope they will, itís just that with the type of reactors we have today,
they also make these radiomedicines, itís just that they are not in a form they can
be extracted from the reactor because they have short half-lives and they decay very
quickly and that is what limits them from using the kind of technology we have today
in order to generate these medicines. What is unique about our design is that we can
generate medicine and potentially electrical energy simultaneously. This medical market
for his radiomedicine is well-established. Itís a multi-billion dollar existing world
market for this material so weíre not creating a new space here, what we are is creating
what we think is a very low-cost and potentially reliable source of these materials.
Douglas Goldstein: Iím understanding from you that thorium is actually pretty clean
in terms of the environment but how does that compare to something like solar or wind?
Kirk Sorensen: Itís very different than solar wind. Itís a reliable energy source. Itís
an energy source that we can count on and itís also a dense energy source unlike solar
and wind that we donít have to chew up large areas of land which frankly I donít think
is very green. Weíre having a lot of controversy in the United States about legal killing of
birds by windmills. I donít think thatís green either. So having a reliable and dense
energy sources is an essential thing. Just a few weeks ago, we had a terrible cold snap
here in the United States and it was reliable and dense energy sources like nuclear like
coal, gas hydro that were carrying the day and I remarked to my wife Iíd hate to be
running industrial civilization on wind and solar right now.
Douglas Goldstein: Within the next 5-10 years, what would be the cost of per unit of energy
with a thorium reactor compared to either natural gas which I think today is one of
the cheaper and fairly reliable or we could look in terms of solar or wind?
Kirk Sorensen: We donít have the numbers for that estimate yet because weíre still
in the preliminary design phase for the reactor but we anticipate that as we progress the
design that those cost could be very competitive with natural gas and also that thereís a
potential for an augmented revenue stream, not just electricity like we have in our reactors
today but also medicines, other important isotopes that could be used for power generation,
desalinated water, high temperature heat for processed heat for industrial processes. Itís
a veritable cornucopia of products that potentially could come out of this reactor of which electricity
is merely one and we believe that will continue to improve the economic prospects for developing
and deploying these reactors in the future.
Douglas Goldstein: From an investor standpoint, who are the big players in the field today?
Kirk Sorensen: The big players in the United States are obviously incumbents like Westinghouse,
General Electric, Babcock & Wilcox and then there are a host of newer players in whatís
called the small modular reactors base, companies like New Scale that have been able to win
contracts from the United States Government, cross matching contracts. All of these companies
that weíre putting forward essentially various sizes of the same light water reactor technology,
reactor based on solid uranium fuel and high pressure water and although itís a very developed
and mature technology which is its fundamental advantage, it locks in the limitations of
todayís technology, the need for continuous cooling, the inaccessibility of valuable products
inside the reactor like these medical radioisotopes and also a relatively well operating temperature.
Reactors of this style donít operate at high enough temperature to for instance use air
cooling or gas [trap] and power conversion or to run desalination plants with their waste
heat. This new technology although it needs development offers a great deal of potential
and as I mentioned new and enhanced revenue streams.
Douglas Goldstein: What does your company Flibe Energy do?
Kirk Sorensen: We were formed in order to go and pursue this opportunity of this molten-salt
reactors based on the thorium fuel cycle and although itís a long-term goal, we have been
telling the story across the world and also attracting interest from various parties that
is enabling us to continue with the design and assessment of these reactor concepts again
at a low level of feasibility level right now but if those results are positive, we
will expand them to a larger scope and a larger evaluation.
Douglas Goldstein: How can people follow your work?
Kirk Sorensen: Our website is www.flibe-energy.com and that is a good source of resources, links
to presentations Iíve given, papers and documents and so forth. They can also follow us on our
Facebook page, links in our Twitter account which are all found there at www.flibe-energy.com.
Douglas Goldstein, CFPÆ, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host
of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show (Monday nights at 7:00 PM on www.israelnationalradio.com.
He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S. and Israel. Securities offered
through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA. Accounts carried
by National Financial Services LLC. Member NYSE/SIPC, a Fidelity Investments company.
His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered
at: www.profile-financial.com (02) 624-2788 or (03) 524-0942.
Disclaimer: This document is a transcription and/or an educational article. While it is
believed to be current and accurate, divergence from the original is to be expected. The original
podcast can be heard at https://sites.google.com/site/goldsteinradioshows/. All information on this website is purely
information and should not be used as the sole basis for making financial decisions.
The opinions rendered herein are those of the guests, and not necessarily those of Douglas
Goldstein, Profile Investment Services, Ltd., or Israel National News. Readers should consult
with a professional financial advisor before making any financial decisions. Please see
the complete disclaimer at https://sites.google.com/site/goldsteinradioshows/.