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>> THE ARTICLE TITLE IS PROVOCATIVE.
'THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED SUSANA MARTINEZ COULD ALSO
BE HER DOWNFALL.' THE PIECE IN THE NATIONAL
JOURNAL EXAMINES THE ROLE OF JAY McCLESKEY.
HE'S THE POLITICAL ADVISER TO MS. MARTINEZ, AND IT
QUESTIONS WHETHER HIS ROLE IS TOO LARGE, AND IF THE
GOVERNOR RELIES TOO MUCH ON HIS JUDGMENT.
THE ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS SLAMMED THE PIECE, BUT IT'S
FOSTERED PLENTY OF POLITICAL CHATTER LOCALLY AS WE HEAD
INTO AN ELECTION YEAR. SO JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT
THIS AND OTHER NEWS OF THE WEEK IS ONE OF OUR LINE
REGULARS, HERE FROM THE SNOW OF SANTA FE, ROB NIKOLEWSKI,
THE NEW MEXICO WATCHDOG. ANOTHER REGULAR, TOM
GARRITY, ROCKING THE BOW TIE, FROM THE GARRITY GROUP.
HE'S HERE. RETURNING TO THE TABLE THIS
WEEK, OUR REGULAR LAURA SANCHEZ, CEO OF THE NEW
MEXICO GREEN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.
AND ALSO RETURNING AFTER A MUCH TOO LONG HIATUS, OUR
GOOD FRIEND MARISA DEMARCO, CO-FOUNDER OF THE NEW MEXICO
COMPASS. TOM, THIS PIECE HIGHLIGHTS
MANY THINGS THAT COULD BE REASONABLY SAID, THAT PEOPLE
TALK AROUND HERE, BUT A NATIONAL PIECE PUTS A
DIFFERENT HUE ON EVERYTHING. LET ME START WITH THIS, ON
THAT DIFFERENT HUE IDEA. HER NATIONAL ASPIRATIONS, IF
THERE ARE TO BE ANY, WHAT DOES A NATIONAL PIECE, LIKE
THIS NATIONAL JOURNAL PIECE DO TO THOSE KINDS OF
ASPIRATIONS? >> IT ALMOST BECOMES A
RECORD, IF YOU WILL, TO SAY, OKAY, LET'S GET AS MUCH OF
THE STUFF OUT THERE THROUGH THIRD PARTIES AS MUCH AS
POSSIBLE, SO THAT WAY WE JUST PUT IT ON THE RECORD
AND PEOPLE SAY, HERE IT IS. AND SO IT'S GOOD FODDER FOR
OTHER INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISTS, OR OTHER
BLOGGERS AND TWEETERS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
>> SURE. AND MARISA, ONE OF THE
QUESTIONS THAT'S COME UP IS, I THINK JOE MONAHAN MIGHT
HAVE POSED THIS, TOO, THESE THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN DUG
UP LOCALLY, BUT THEY WEREN'T.
>> THAT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT I
THOUGHT ABOUT, IS BEAT REPORTERS WHO ARE COVERING
THE SUSANA MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION, THIS IS NOT
A NEW ASSERTION IN NEW MEXICO, SO I WONDER A LITTLE
BIT ABOUT WHY WE DIDN'T HAVE THIS STORY LOCALLY.
BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER OR
NOT IT'S A FAIR CRITIQUE OF THE TENOR OF HER
ADMINISTRATION REALLY BRINGS UP FOR ME THE IDEA THAT HER
ADMINISTRATION IS OFTEN NOT VERY READILY ACCESSIBLE TO
THE PRESS, AND SO WE CAN'T QUITE GET A SINCE OF, MAYBE,
WHETHER OR NOT THIS HAS BEEN A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION OF
HER ADMINISTRATION, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT ABLE TO ASK
QUESTIONS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, KIND OF RUN-OF-THE-MILL
ISSUES, NEVER MIND ABOUT THE OVERALL KIND OF BEHIND THE
SCENES MACHINATIONS OF HER ADMINISTRATION.
>> FAIR ENOUGH, THAT'S A GOOD POINT.
LAURA, ONE OF THE THINGS WE'LL CIRCLE BACK TO, AS
WELL, IS ON THE PUSHBACK FROM THE ADMINISTRATION.
WE'VE HAD SOME INCENDIARY WORDS, AS WELL.
SEXIST, RACIST, A COUPLE OF OTHERS IN THERE.
IT'S FAIR FOR THE ADMINISTRATION TO PUSH BACK,
NOBODY WOULD FAULT THEM FOR DOING THIS, BUT IS THAT THE
RIGHT TONE? WAS IT RACIST, IN YOUR VIEW?
WAS IT SEXIST, IN YOUR VIEW? HOW DID THAT TONE OF IT COME
ACROSS, NOW THAT THEY'RE APPROPRIATELY RESPONDING TO
IT? >> OBVIOUSLY I'VE DEALT WITH
SEXISM AND RACISM. I THINK WE ALL HAVE
ENCOUNTERED THAT AT SOME POINT.
IT DIDN'T STRIKE ME AS SEXIST AND RACIST.
IT STRUCK ME AS DEFINITELY PAINTING A PICTURE OF THE
KIND OF TIES THAT ARE INFILTRATING HER
ADMINISTRATION, IN THE FACT THAT THERE IS A CLOSE KNIT
GROUP OF PEOPLE ON THE 4th FLOOR.
HER CLOSEST STAFF ALL HAVE TIES BACK TO McCLESKEY IN
SOME WAY. THAT WAS KIND OF THE
INTERESTING PART FOR ME, IS JUST THAT BACK CHANNEL
COMMUNICATION AND ALL THAT. IT DIDN'T STRIKE ME AS
SEXIST OR RACIST. I THINK THAT -- BUT
OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT IN HER POSITION, AND I THINK
THAT'S A VERY SUBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE TO HAVE.
>> AND THAT'S FAIR ENOUGH. I THINK ANY OF US CAN
CONNECT TO THAT. YOUR OWN POINT OF VIEW
COUNTS RATHER THAN SOMEBODY ELSE'S.
ROB, TO THE POINT, AND THE POINT WAS JAY McCLESKEY
AND HIS POWER IN THIS ADMINISTRATION.
A FAIR PORTRAYAL? IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S
GOING TO DOG THIS ADMINISTRATION, AGAIN, ON
THE NATIONAL FRONT DOWN THE ROAD, POSSIBLY?
WAS IT FAIR, FIRST OF ALL, IN YOUR GUT?
>> YEAH, I THOUGHT SO. TO ME, I THOUGHT WHAT MADE
THE STORY NOTEWORTHY WAS THE FACT THAT YOU GOT PEOPLE TO
GO ON THE RECORD, AND THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT YOU WERE
TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, THE STATEWIDE MEDIA NOT
FOLLOWING UP ON THIS. WHILE WE HAVE IN MANY WAYS,
FOR EXAMPLE, THE ANGIE SPEARS RACE WITH PAT WOODS,
AND THE FIGHT WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THERE.
BUT MANY TIMES, SPEAKING FROM MY EXPERIENCE AND I
THINK ALSO SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES, YOU WOULD TALK
TO A NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS, AND THEY WOULDN'T WANT TO ON
THE RECORD. >> RIGHT.
>> WHAT MADE THIS STORY NOTEWORTHY WAS SOMEONE LIKE
HARVEY YATES, WHO IS VERY WELL-KNOWN, WEALTHY.
>> EXPLAIN WHO HE IS. >> OIL MAN FROM SOUTHERN NEW
MEXICO. THEY ACTIVE IN THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY, USED TO BE TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
CHAIRMAN. THE FACT THAT HARVEY WENT ON
THE RECORD AND TALKED TO THIS REPORTER AND HAD HIS
COMPLAINTS, I THINK THAT'S WHAT MADE THIS STORY
NOTEWORTHY. BUT THE FACT THAT THE DEBATE
OVER HOW MUCH INFLUENCE JAY McCLESKEY HAS OR DOESN'T
HAVE, THAT'S BEEN SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT
AND TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, EVEN ON THIS PROGRAM.
WHEN MATT GRUBS USED TO BE HERE, HE TALKED TO JAY.
I'VE TALKED TO JAY A NUMBER OF TIMES ABOUT THIS, AS
WELL, AND THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN THE SAME.
BUT THE POINT I WOULD MAKE, THOUGH, ABOUT THIS WHOLE
THING, AND IT MAKES FOR A LOT OF GOOD POLITICAL
FODDER, AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, BUT THE
POINT THAT I WOULD MAKE IS THAT EVERY POLITICIAN HAS A
JAY McCLESKEY TYPE, WHETHER IT'S JAMES CARGO
WITH BILL CLINTON, OR DAVID AXLEROD WITH BARACK OBAMA.
>> BILL RICHARDSON HAD HIS VERSION.
>> THAT'S RIGHT, EVERYONE'S GOT THEIRS, AND THAT'S WHAT
A POLITICAL STRATEGIST IS SUPPOSED TO DO, IS TO TELL
THE CANDIDATE, TELL THE PUBLIC OFFICIAL, OKAY, THIS
IS WHAT WE THINK WILL WORK IN A REAL POLITIQUE SORT OF
WAY. IT'S UP TO YOU, AND IT'S UP
TO THE CANDIDATE OR THE PUBLIC OFFICIAL, TO MAKE
THAT CHOICE. AND WHETHER YOU CAN SAY --
IT'S A CHICKEN AND THE EGG THING TO SAY, WELL, JAY'S
GOT TOO MUCH INFLUENCE OVER THE GOVERNOR.
BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS, THOUGH, WHENEVER POLITICAL
STRATEGIST HAS ANY KIND OF RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR
CANDIDATE OR PUBLIC OFFICIAL, IT'S THAT PUBLIC
OFFICIAL WHO ULTIMATELY HAS THE HAMMER.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. >> SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE JAY
McCLESKEY'S INFLUENCE, OR SUPPOSED INFLUENCE ON THE
GOVERNOR, ULTIMATELY IT'S THE GOVERNOR'S CALL, NOT
JAY'S. >> THAT'S RIGHT.
INTERESTING POINT TO ME IN THE ARTICLE, I AGREE WITH
ROB AND MARISA, THERE'S BEEN COVERAGE OF JAY AND SUSANA,
AND ALL THESE KIND OF THINGS, THE $850,000 THIS
MAN HAS EARNED IN ABOUT TWO AND SOME YEARS IS
EXTRAORDINARY TO ME, FROM A NEW MEXICO BASIS.
THAT'S EXTRAORDINARY. >> IT'S GOOD WORK, IF YOU
CAN GET IT. >> FOR ONE PERSON.
I MEAN, GETTING 13 GRAND A MONTH FROM ONE PLACE, 10
GRAND A MONTH FROM ANOTHER PLACE, TAKING UP ALMOST ALL
THE MONEY FROM THE ANGIE SPEARS RACE.
LIKE LESS THAN $10,000 WAS LEFT.
>> ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT TAXPAYER DOLLARS, IT'S
CAMPAIGN MONEY. >> RIGHT.
IS THAT -- HOW DOES THAT MAKE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO FEEL
ABOUT JAY McCLESKEY? WHEN YOU CAN CLEAN $850,000
OFF THE TABLE IN TWO YEARS, IT'S AMAZING.
>> WELL, I MEAN, IT IS A SIGN OF ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT, TONGUE IN CHEEK.
>> SERIOUSLY? >> BUT IN ALL SERIOUSNESS --
>> GOOD ONE. >> -- WHAT WE NEED TO TAKE A
LOOK AT IS THE NORMAL PERSON WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REALLY
CONNECT WITH, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER IS GOVERNOR, WHOEVER
THE GOVERNOR'S STAFF IS. I MEAN, THIS IS A WHOLE
DIFFERENT STRATOSPHERE OF POLITICAL STRATEGY AND
DISCUSSION, AND ASKING THE REGULAR NEW MEXICO RESIDENTS
TO TRY TO CONNECT WITH SOMEBODY LIKE JAY
McCLESKEY, OR ANY OTHER POLITICAL OPERATIVE, I DON'T
THINK IS REALISTIC. I MEAN, HE HAS A PRICE AS
FAR AS WHAT HIS CONSULTING FEES ARE, AND HE GETS PAID
FOR IT. >> BUT MONEY IS POWER,
MARISA, EXACTLY RIGHT. SO HE'S BIGGER, IN FACT, I
THINK, THAN A LOT OF FOLKS MIGHT EVEN GIVE HIM CREDIT
FOR. >> RIGHT.
>> BECAUSE MONEY BEHIND YOU IS THE POWER.
>> I THINK THE PAY ISSUE REALLY BRINGS UP A LOT OF
THE CONVERSATION THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING IN THE LAST
SEVERAL YEARS ABOUT CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, ABOUT SUPER
PACS, ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY IS SPENT ON POLITICAL RACES.
AND WHEN WE SAY THAT THAT MONEY IS BEING SPENT ON
POLITICAL RACES, IT'S GOING SOMEWHERE.
IT'S GOING TO JAY McCLESKEY.
IT'S GOING TO OTHER PEOPLE LIKE JAY McCLESKEY.
THAT'S HOW THOSE CAMPAIGN DOLLARS IN THESE VERY, VERY
EXPENSIVE RACES GETS SPENT. SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT
BRINGS UP A LARGER POINT ABOUT THE FINANCING OF RACES
IN POLITICS. >> SURE.
AND ON THAT NOTE, YOU'VE BEEN AROUND POLITICS A LONG
TIME, YOU'VE KNOWN THE JAY McCLESKEYS OF THE WORLD,
EVERYBODY HAS THEM, THESE GUNSLINGERS OUT THERE, BUT
$850,000. THE MARKET CAN BEAR IT,
OBVIOUSLY, HE'S NOT STEALING IT, HOWEVER WHAT DOES THAT
DO? THERE MUST BE SOME IMPACT.
>> SURE, AND I THINK IT'S A DAUNTING NUMBER FOR THE
AVERAGE NEW MEXICAN. ONE OF THE DISTRESSING
THINGS FOR ME IS, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH A
PERSON IN THAT KIND OF POSITION, AND WHETHER THE
MARKET BEARS THAT OR NOT, BUT FOR HIM OBVIOUSLY IT
DOES, CAN MAKE THAT KIND OF MONEY, AND WE'RE NOT EVEN
CONNECTING EDUCATION, NECESSARILY, TO THAT.
I MEAN, AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS THREE DEGREES AND CAN NEVER
EVEN DREAM OF MAKING THAT KIND OF MONEY IN NEW MEXICO
AT THE LEGAL WORK THAT I DO IS, YOU KNOW, JUST SHOCKING.
AND SO WHAT DOES THAT COMMUNICATES TO THE AVERAGE
NEW MEXICAN. DOES IT MAKE SENSE FOR YOU
TO SPEND EIGHT YEARS GETTING DEGREES, OR JUST SPEND EIGHT
YEARS DOING POLITICS, BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE A
MUCH MORE STABLE ROAD FOR SOME PEOPLE.
BUT I THINK IT IS SHOCKING TO THE AVERAGE PERSON, AND
YOU HAVE TO JUST TAKE A STEP BACK AND THINK ABOUT, WELL,
WHO IS ADVISING THE GOVERNOR?
AND I AGREE THAT EVERY GOVERNOR, EVERY POLITICIAN
HAS SOMEBODY LIKE THIS. I THINK IN THIS SITUATION,
JAY McCLESKEY HAS -- YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNOR HAS A
PROBLEM IN TERMS OF BEING ECLIPSED BY JAY McCLESKEY
TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. HER ADMINISTRATION COULD
POTENTIALLY BE ECLIPSED BECAUSE HE HAS SO MUCH PULL
AND SO MUCH POWER IN SO MANY DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE
STATE, AND I THINK THAT CRITICISM IS NATURALLY THERE
BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING -- YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT
PUTTING FORTH ANYTHING DIFFERENT.
>> SURE. WE'RE ABOUT A MINUTE OUT,
ROB. IT SEEMS TO ME, IF I STEP
BACK FROM THIS AND I'M IN THE MARTINEZ ADMINISTRATION,
ACTUALLY WHEN I SETTLE DOWN WITH THIS, I'M FEELING LIKE
I JUST GOT A HUGE BREAK, AND I'LL TELL YOU EXACTLY WHY.
IT SEEMS TO ME THE GOVERNOR HAS ALLOWED A VOID, AND
THAT'S WHY THIS WHOLE McCLESKEY THING HAS
HAPPENED, THERE'S A VOID. AND NOW SHE UNDERSTANDS, IT
WOULD SEEM TO ME, THAT SHE NEEDS TO STEP INTO THAT VOID
AND START BEING A POLITICIAN AT THIS POINT, START SAYING
WHAT SHE BELIEVES IN, START TALKING ABOUT WHAT SHE
BELIEVES IN, AND STOP LETTING OTHERS DICTATE THE
THING. >> BUT --
>> ON MY POINT, THOUGH, IS THERE A VOID?
IS SHE ALLOWING THIS MAN TO BE THAT VOICE BECAUSE SHE'S
NOT SAYING THINGS THAT SHE SHOULD BE SAYING?
>> I DON'T KNOW IF I'D AGREE WITH THE IDEA OF A VOID,
BECAUSE WHAT'S BEEN SOME OF THE MAJOR CRITICISM OF THIS
GOVERNOR? THAT SHE'S TOO STRIDENT,
THAT SHE THROWS TOO MANY SHARP ELBOWS.
SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO CRITICIZE HER FOR BEING TOO
STRIDENT, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN SAY THAT THERE IS A
VOID THERE. >> RIGHT.
>> I MEAN, AS I SAID BEFORE, IT'S ALMOST AN UNKNOWABLE TO
KNOW HOW MUCH INFLUENCE JAY McCLESKEY HAS, BUT IF HE
DOES HAVE A LOT OF INFLUENCE, IT'S THERE
BECAUSE THE CANDIDATE OR THE PUBLIC OFFICIAL WANTS HIM.
>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, ON THE ISSUE OF A VOID, ONE
THING THAT YOU SAID IS THAT SHE NEEDS TO STEP UP AS A
POLITICIAN. I ACTUALLY THINK THAT SHE'S
BEEN DOING A GREAT JOB AS A POLITICIAN, THE POLITICAL
ASPECT OF IT. WHAT SHE NEEDS TO STEP UP AS
IS AS A LEADER, AN ACTUAL GOVERNOR, SOMEBODY WHO IS A
PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND IS ABLE TO UNDERSTAND
WHAT THE NEEDS OF THE ADMINISTRATION ARE.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SHE ACTUALLY HAS BEEN, FROM THE
REPUBLICAN SIDE, GETTING A LOT OF PRAISE FOR IS
SHRINKING THE STATE BUDGET. HOWEVER, THAT COMES AT A
COST, BECAUSE THAT REALLY HAS TURNED INTO NOT FILLING
CERTAIN STATE JOBS. SO A LOT OF JOBS HAVE GONE
UNFILLED, PEOPLE HAVE NOT MOVED INTO SOME OF THOSE
POSITIONS, AND I THINK AS A RESULT WE'VE HAD A SHORTAGE
OF SERVICES IN STATE GOVERNMENT.
>> IS SHE GOING TO MAKE ANY CHANGES IN THE RELATIONSHIP
AFTER THIS, OR IS THIS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT DIES
DOWN AND POLITICOS SQUAWK ABOUT IT?
>> WHATEVER HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST WILL CONTINUE.
THIS ARTICLE ISN'T ONE OF THOSE THAT CHANGES THOSE
TYPES OF THINGS. WHAT I THOUGHT WAS
INTERESTING IS THE ARTICLE TALKS ABOUT IMMIGRATION, AND
OF COURSE THIS WEEK THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE ANNOUNCED
THAT YES, INDEED, DRIVER'S LICENSE REFORM IS BACK ON
THE TABLE. AND HAVING WORKED WITH
SOMEONE FROM PUEBLOS UNIDOS IN THE PAST ON THIS
PARTICULAR ISSUE FOR TWO SESSIONS, I KNOW THAT THIS
IS ONE OF THE RECURING ISSUES THAT WE'RE GOING TO
SEE OVER AND OVER AGAIN. SO WE SEE A LOT OF THE OLD
ISSUES THAT HAVE BEEN SIGNATURE ITEMS FOR HER IN
THE PAST COMING BACK TO LIVE AGAIN.
SO I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S JAY McCLESKEY, I DON'T
KNOW IF IT'S GOVERNOR MARTINEZ, BUT WE KNOW IT'S
HER PLAYBOOK, AND HER PLAYBOOK IS NOT CHANGING.
>> WELL SAID. IN A MOMENT, WE'RE BACK WITH
AN IN-DEPTH INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR MARTIN HEINRICH.