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really offsets
on the phone it's a pleasure to welcome back to the program professor at Eagle
out he is a professor religion an african-american studies at princeton
I'll welcome back to the program professor it's always a pleasure to
dialogue with your brother Sam now
%uh batting we r we are on the cusp OVA a 50-year anniversary
I love the march on Washington
for jobs and a freedom
and its the the the March
is i i think at this point most famous for
I Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech
I just let me put this into context for us before cuz I
I wanna talk about how I am this March
was developed and I
in getting to serve how in in some respects
there's been I don't I don't know if I
it's fair to say revisionist history above what the meaning of the march was
but certainly
it's been filtered in some way but a give shore
put it in context for us well I mean I think it's important to kinda think to
understand
the the history of the march on Washington it comes out on the march on
Washington movement which lasted from 1941 to about 1946
I am was rooted in the effort serve a philip Randolph and
Bayard Rustin and others a fill a brand of course
what are the organizes I love the black pullman porters
I'll and alongside Chandler all when
a in New York I'll was part of a kind of black
labor a movement a
in some ways the cornerstone of a black labor movement Bayard Rustin of course
coming out of
a organizing tradition fresh
fellowship friend you know Quaker tradition pacifist tradition
so it has is F its origins in this effort to push
a the president to respond to
the economic circumstances a black folks are there was this desire to
to to push press Franklin Delano Roosevelt I
to to really respond to the dire circumstances a black folk in the
country so it was supposed to be a massive mobilization in which black
black folk and their friends with common in some ways I
Occupy DC to bring pressure to bear are on the federal government to address the
circumstances everyday ordinary folks
arm that movement was expended
and Bayard Rustin brought it into 1963 as a part of the civil rights movement
and
and initially it was supposed to be a massive sedan
I love everyday ordinary folk a black workers a poor people sharecroppers to
bring attention
our to the devastation
mistake that took place in South to bring attention to the movement that was
going on in the south
to respond to be a back to back to civil disobedience air am
and you know the story of course you know malcolm X as the famous
description of the march on Washington St far Scott Washington
right that the federal government realized kennedy realize that this was
going to be a massive active South civil disobedience decided to
get in front of it and in some ways transformed into redirected it
I to become kinda mobilization in support a
legislation that would eventually be Rights Act of 1964
that stuff it has his radical origin
then it gets transformed him that's the part that that really
fascinates me and and to a certain extent we see
how that has reverberated through the decades
I the the you know week i think im Inc
in common parlance it's referred to the march on Washington
and that part about four jobs and freedom
gets gets lost here and you know iight was
I EU I think it was on on Twitter when you head to head
had mentioned that you were thinking about malcolm X's perspective on this
and you know from his autobiography he really talks
he he discusses this march in the con- in the context thereof
really a co-op tation in many respects
I am I right i mean it's it's it's it's really bizarre you know in in in the
sense that it again it was supposed to be a massive act of civil disobedience
call attention to the prevalence of discrimination
in the south throughout the country and it be
it was in some ways not only coopted but absorb every we can see that now
I mean look at it President Obama will be speaking
right ariko NTA at the lincoln memorial
right unlike the %uh previous presidents like
I would for him to be perhaps speaking in the way love
congress pushing a jobs bill to respond to the devastating
unemployment figures in black america I would prefer him pushing legislation
from the white house's JF Kennedy was trying to do I you know actually
working politically as opposed to getting in front of
a this a memorialization so but it it is
kinder example love the way in which the march on Washington has
come to symbolize fam I'll the goodness of America we've come so far and now
we're gonna celebrate where we are and
and hopefully folks will call attention to to the crisis
that that is in golf in black america at this moment as a positive simply patting
themselves on the back
yeah I mean that is the part that really I think you note did
that dynamic is one that i think is really surprising out
in are our political consciousness because
you know what we're were at a time where there was reports out today about
wage stagnation and I african-americans
I and the poor I have
have suffered even grader over the course of this recession
I then the obviously the wealthy
and I N and white folk and
it seems that their is I mean
that howie about I hope the I
there's a certain amount of frustration that I imagine
I mean that I feel I in that were we're talking about you to sort of
'em focusing on this notion and and certainly there's plenty I think to be
I to be proud of in terms of what has happened in this country
there certainly things to celebrate insofar as
I I don't know a fifty years ago
and it it seems actually when we say it all really a long time ago
for it to imagine a
the first term african-american president but at the same time
I am we we we're dealing with problems that
that seem to be perennially swept under the rug which is
in in fact in some ways have been exacerbated
when we talk about economics well family party and you know this I i've been
following you for so long
you know you i thinkI still the same way that I feel that there is that there has
been a kinda marginalization
above genuine progressive and radical tradition in the united states
that what stands in for radical Voice progressive
voice is really a kinda center-left Voice and this is really taking place
within the context of the black freedom struggle and how we narrate
that struggle in the current moment so what we really have
standing in for a kinda %uh the best
the black freedom struggle in the US is the kinda black liberal narrative
which really takes as its point of departure
right kinda baseline inclusion into
into the status quo what we'll
what we see I as the result of that is that
folks who are on the margins folks who are in the shadows get left out
and so part of what we do know is that we still have a
me at double-digit unemployment in african-american communities
someplace it's some in some areas is not just simply 30 percent
nationally in some areas is its close to 18 percent
some areas when we talk about african-american man is close to fifty
percent
up when we think about what happened in the foreclosure crisis that really had
with have
head as at its root a kind of discriminatory practice in terms of
black folk in brown folk being pushed
r2 d2 subprime loans we see that the
the devastation in terms of just simply the loss of homes
right what we see who's all one who's taking advantage of food stamps who's
taking advantage
I love of government assistance as they try to cut it particularly in relation
to sequestering
um you see black women and black children right suffering
disproportionately black and brown
children poor people suffering disproportionately so it becomes a very
difficult
pink stomach right when we find ourselves in December Tory mold when we
see so much suffering
right a this is put in the nation right
and so part of what we have to do in this moment around the celebration of
the March
on washington is call attention to not only
what was present but what was perhaps what is perhaps it
ms celebration people focus on King's I have a dream speech
n/a religious reduce it to the I have a dream portion of it which was really
something hit
his delivery was kind of a stick that he had been delivering
prior to that moment such that the hell yeah jackson guilt or during this peak
tell about the dream Martin right which is kinda performative moment but before
he gets to that what is he saying we've come to cash a check
right he's talking about job he's talking about discrimination he's
talking about structural realities
that limit the life chances of people of color right what do we need
I'm sorry I'm going on at all no no no I mean I this is i I'm
I'm sitting here nodding because you know to a certain extent I have
a you know a been wrestling with this sort of ambivalence in when it was
announced this morning that Eric Holder's going to be speaking there
on one hand I think the Department of Justice has been
pretty good on bouncy in 10 maybe even beyond that
in terms above a voting rights in dealing with
this sort of the intense push by the republicans to disenfranchise black
people from voting
at the aided and abetted by the Supreme Court on the other hand
arm you know not only were a
black folk steered into subprime mortgages
there was a conscious effort to prey on people
in black communities particularly a poor communities
who were not financially literate where the Mortgage Services took advantage of
them
and we have seen virtually nothing net virtually nothing
from the administration from Eric Holder who is in a position to do all these
things
I and to to if hold these
the these mortgage services these banks to account and so
I have this intense ambivalence and when
I read a you know we read the Malcolm X on
on this March where he talks about the
you know that the the Kennedy had brought to the white house
the leaders love some the biggest the black organizations at the time but if
look you know I'm lookin cerned about this I
do you guys have control this measure will actually this is not us
I and there's this move to sort of co-op this energy
and funnel it in a way that is manageable
in some fashion what do you think about think about what practices
this moment right i mean we had the george Zimmerman verdict can you
remember what happened
right I mean you have this amazing
came to have expression I love
discontented anger of range
you saw this amazing kinda more grassroots mobilization across the
country
as people took to the streets to give voice to their
own sense that the criminal justice system was in fact
and remains decidedly biased when it comes to
are young black men and women or black men and women generally
out and you saw this and it will happen am the president came out and gave
a speech I had a press conference
and 434 new cycle a solid people were talking about
and then suddenly Sharpton who would call for all these marches said okay
let's just focus our attention now on them
24 in the 28th without it to bring all this
and so all this grassroots energy that was expressed
with the energy has been sucked out of the world except for the dream defenders
down in florida dmv
and sold so you have this moment and then President Obama steps forward
and in the moment becomes all about him
and what do we get from this right we see that
by any statistical measure champ
under this presidency black life hasn't
not improved in fact it has gotten worst
but any statistical measure and the only thing that we hear
from President Obama's defenders up is that
if it wasn't for him it would be even worse right
that's the kinda baseline response cuz will get the standard narrative
what he's done for black socks right and that he's the president of All American
right
but what you see very clearly in my view
up is the demobilization other black radical tradition
as all the energies gets sucked out into this standard liberal narrative
about the black freedom struggle which eventually in President Obama's
ascendancy or whether it's
Attorney General holder's presence in the justice department Wow
on the ground everyday ordinary people are suffering
I in unimaginable ways it's all part of what we have to do it but I love about
this segmenting show what you always do
is that we have to activate progressive energies
we have to call attention to the have princes
right that art will be
glaring in this memorial is Asian in celebration of the fiftieth anniversary
not only did malcolm dis malcolm X describe this is too far from washington
remember on the eve of the march on Washington
Sam we will be celebrating the 50th anniv are recognizing the fiftieth
anniversary of the death the BB the boys
and two boys left power in african-american election
it America he died in Ghana and he actually sent a letter
right he actually said word not to be duped
by the March right that we had to link us trouble-free
44 I but our struggle against racial discrimination to a struggle for
economic justice right
economic justice rooted not just simply insert capitalists imagination but
economic justice roots by the fam
right in the sense that everyone should have the ability to earn a decent living
and provide a
put home over their head a roof over their head in like up you know I don't
want to get on a
on on on a on my little pedestal here
but the march on Washington the commemoration
is doing political work can we meet understand clearly
what kind of political work this commemoration is doing
exact as progressives we have two intervene
and we have to remarry this moment we have to tell a different story
about what this March actually represents you know I mean it's its
you know but my audiences is quite familiar with this and I i quote this
often but you know back in 2008
I my co host at the time mark maran had a
a comedian had a great had a great and and sadly pression joke
about a about President Obama that the
this is a historic occasion finally african-american people are finally
gonna have the opportunity to be screwed by one of their own
and it sadly it was it was
I in many respects very prescient in
you know when we talk about this I mean I think this is exactly
this is exactly why want to talk to you about this is sort of this this
intervention into a who
loans and dictates that narrow the narrative
I love love both what the original March on Washington was about
and even the if it is for that march or
you know everything that a preceded that March and who owns it now I mean
you mention sharpen its actually Sharpton's
National Action Network that is sorted
has I appropriated
a this this march into the to the extent that is actually called the national
action to realize the dream
and you kno Inc it from my estimation
I al Sharpton a putting aside
you know the who you know well whether or not he should be
the you know with the the idea observe co-op thing this
but a he has been one of President Obama's greatest defenders
are Ian terms love not speaking
to these issues I love really %uh V economic justice
and 10 I ET's was so how does one
go about doing this I mean when you see
the the the coop tation that that happened back in 1960 E
3 or six therefore I guess or you know the years
contractors be happy to hear I am
how now when this is
this is almost been sort of mean it is it's packaged as a media event
I mean it let you know the it's hard to find
the line between where this is happening
in terms of mobilizing people and this being
an extension have a special that MSNBC is holding
bad you hit it right on the head it's hard you know it's hard to stay away
from the liquor cabinet in these times right here
really active it's really dark out here and and you know
in some ways the march is going to be a coronation Nov
reference chart and I've worked with Trevor chapter in the past
on his radio show as a commentator but I've been does just profoundly
disappointed
I in in the way in which you know to put it crudely he's just
situated himself as caring Obama's water
in relation to the the devastation is taking place in the community so part of
the work that we have to do sam is exactly what you're doing
I'll and and that is we have to remarry we have to find venues
because the fragmentation of the media market we can do all sorts of things
I to begin to tell different sources stories and understand that it's going
to be difficult
hard to break through the white noise to break through I
that that but the overarching narrative that's being put out there but we have
to do this sort of work we have to do the sort of grunt work and I can I bring
this up
because part of what so beautiful about the march on Washington
in 63 and that and in the march on Washington movement from
4146 is that it reflects the best to be organizing tradition
don't have to ask the question how tall you forgive p.m.
right ram it wasn't just because somebody put out a call on msn you don't
have MSNBC right
somebody had organized for organizing in their local communities stocks were
engaged and
on the ground quite work trying to mobilize their communities to respond
to the conditions of the day and what's beautiful about the march on Washington
even in 63 what it was coopted by King
is that it was at clear evidence that the nation hundreds of thousands of
people black NY
came together in a public moment declared that jim crow in the South
what's wrong all
was evil and to that extent that a good thing
so part of what we have to do is begin to lift up their organizing tradition
I lift up the possibilities of genuine interracial coalition
and begin to give voice to what that needs to look like book that might look
like in our current moment
but all that say that it would wanna go what
we're gonna be doing that against a very strong headwind right indicted only
I can only tell you that it's very difficult to have the kind of criticism
that I have for the critique that I have in this moment people will jump on you
call your trader I as well educating
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