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>> Female announcer: This is a
production of WKNO, Memphis.
Production funding for "Behind
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in part by..
>> Barnes: A talk with county
commission members about the
pros and cons of a sales tax
increase plus the challenges in
remaking the local school
systems tonight on "Behind the
Headlines."
>> (instrumental music)
♪♪♪
♪♪♪
>> Barnes: I'm Eric Barnes,
publisher of the Memphis Daily
News.
Thanks for joining us.
We're joined tonight by Mike
Ritz, chair of the Shelby County
Commission.
Thank you for being here.
>> Ritz: Thank you.
>> Barnes: Also, Steve Basar --
also from the County Commission.
Thank you for being here.
>> Basar: Thank you, Eric.
>> Barnes: Joined by two
reporters.
Bill Dries from the Memphis
Daily News.
And Jackson Baker from the
Memphis Flyer.
Thank you all.
Let's start with -- We're in
early voting.
Election Day is just a week
away.
We are less than a week away --
Excuse me.
We've got a sales tax increase
that you push for, Chairman
Ritz.
What is that sales tax for?
Why should people vote for it?
Make your case to the voters.
>> Ritz: The reason we put it on
the ballot was it appears to the
county commission that we have a
57 - 60 million dollar deficit
coming to us at a minimum from
the school system next year.
It maybe a greater deficit.
But at least going to be 57 - 60
million.
And that's assuming the school
board makes some pretty tough
decisions about closing some
schools, bus drivers in the
county, maintenance of city
schools in the city.
We're going to need some funds
and our only place to look for
funds, generally speaking year
in - year out, is the property
tax.
We have this sales tax
opportunity.
It's kind of a once in a
lifetime situation to use a half
cent sales tax county-wide and
by state law, half of it had to
go to schools.
We'll collect 61 million dollars
and a little over 30 million
will go to schools.
That's half of that proposed
possible deficit.
>> Barnes: And is that -- That
money is targeted.
It's been talked about in the
paper.
It's talked about in the
commission.
That money would be targeted to
pre-k or is that just sort of an
idea that's been floated?
>> Ritz: It came up during the
discussions literally with the
city mayor because as you
recall, Mayor Wharton and come
councilmen were very much upset
with the county commission for
putting this on a ballot.
And visiting with them
literally, one-on-one just like
we're here today, talking to
Mayor Wharton specifically about
this, it appeared to him and to
all of us that the TPC's
recommendation to greatly expand
pre-k.
It's the only subject matter in
the TPC plan where there really
was a proposed big expansion of
a program -- pre-k.
>> Barnes: TPC being the
Transition Planning Committee
that is charged with coming up
with a plan or has been charged
come up with a plan as we go
from the city schools to a
potentially unified schools.
That's the group.
And they're handing that over to
the school board and then, of
course, you all fund the school
board.
There are a lot of groups -- a
lot of commission.
So I want to make sure I get --
>> Ritz: I apologize.
>> Barnes: No, no, no -- That's
fine.
>> Ritz: I should have
identified that but the pre-k
was proposed to start with --
according to the TPC plan, 500
new children.
I guess they're five-year-olds
-- four or five, every year.
And get up to the several
thousand that need pre-k in the
city and out in the county.
This isn't just a city issue.
There are a lot of people out in
the county who go to the
county's current pre-k program.
And there are great needs.
There are people standing in
line to go to the pre-k program.
>> Barnes: We'll come back to a
lot of that -- the pre-k, the
schools closings, the funding,
and so on.
But let's get you in,
Commissioner Basar.
Where are you?
Again, we're in the middle of
early voting.
Election day -- right around the
corner.
Although, election day has such
a different meaning with so much
early voting going on.
Where do you stand on this tax?
>> Basar: I'm not in favor of
the tax and I voted the other
day and voted against the tax.
I'm not for the tax and there's
a couple of reasons.
One -- I think the sales tax is
a regressive tax.
And I think given the fact that
we're talking about the city of
Memphis and the poverty levels
that we're dealing with and the
income levels that we're dealing
with, that tax is going to
disproportionally hit the people
that don't have the funds.
And so that's one reason why I'm
against it.
And another reason is, you know,
the municipalities passed the
tax.
And I think they want to get
that for themselves.
So for the county to step in and
take part of that, I'm not in
favor of that either.
>> Barnes: Are you in favor
though?
I mean, if it's not -- You talk
about the regressive sales tax.
This funding gap, the 60 million
dollars that Commissioner Ritz
just talked about -- Chairman
Ritz.
How else does that get taken
care of?
>> Basar: I'm pretty familiar
with a lot of the TPC
recommendations.
And I haven't committed entire
to memory but there's an awful
lot of savings opportunities
that the county or that the city
school and the county school
need to address -- the unified
school board.
Frankly, when you've got the
city school's budget and you've
got the county school budget and
you put them together and they
say it's going to cost more, I
find that unacceptable.
>> Barnes: But much more savings
to be made before any kind of
commitment?
>> Basar: I really think there's
a lot of savings.
I think when you talk about pre-
k -- and I'm not against pre-k.
I would like to see us talk
about Headstart and what we're
doing there.
And what we're doing with the
cities now or the city schools
and the county schools in terms
of pre-k.
And have a comprehensible
approach.
Because what we're talking about
doing right now -- What they're
proposing is let's kind of fill
the gap.
You know, there's certain people
in Headstart and there's other
people that are doing it with
the city schools and the county
schools.
And then they're saying there's
this unmet need.
But let's look at the whole
picture and how do we do pre-k
bust for everybody if that's
what were going to do.
>> Barnes: Bill?
>> Dries: Mister Chairman, the
county-wide school board met on
Tuesday evening to talk about a
resolution that would support
the sales tax hike.
That resolution from school
board member, Kevin Woods does
not say that the money goes
specifically for an expansion of
pre-k for what's been called
universal pre-k.
It could but the resolution
doesn't state that specifically
because the school board members
say we're not in the budget
process yet.
Is that a problem in terms of
building support for your case?
>> Ritz: Well, first of all,
let's go back.
We adopted the plan for the
half cent sales tax so we'll
have the resources to fund
schools next year.
We got to remember that the city
of Memphis is no longer having
to find city schools anymore
because there are no city
schools after next July 1.
That's 60 million right there.
That's a big hole.
It's not like there are
increased costs.
You have two sides of a budget.
You have the expense side and
you have the revenue side.
There's a 60 million dollar
deficit on the revenue side
because the city won't be
funding anymore.
And frankly, the only
organization in Shelby County,
the public school systems,
including the suburban ones if
there are any, can look to for
funding is the county
commission.
So we've got to find the
resources to pay.
And I don't believe the
commissioners are going to want
to raise the property tax 38
cents to fill the 60 million
dollar gap.
>> Barnes: But what about -- Let
me interrupt you.
What about what Commissioner
Basar was saying and other
people have said.
There could be more expenses.
I think the TP -- that could be
cut.
The TPC plan around numbers
talked about combining and then
reducing, let's say its 100
million.
One of these guys will check me
on that.
In custodian, busing, outsource
-- a whole lot of things in
shared services and so on.
Do you not think there's another
10 million, 50 million, 60
million that could fill that gap
before the county, city, whole
area turns to a tax increase?
>> Ritz: That could well be.
But there's no hole being
filled.
I don't think they're going to
fill the 60 million dollar
revenue shortfall on the revenue
side, except looking to the
Shelby County government.
>> Dries: There had been some
talk when Mayor Wharton changed
his position and said he was in
favor of this now.
There had been some talk about
private non-profit foundation
money being combined with the
tax revenue, specifically for
universal pre-k.
Is that still something that's
in the works?
>> Ritz: Yes -- Pre-k in Shelby
County has been funded from a
lot of sources for a long time.
Headstart's been doing a pretty
good piece.
That's federal money that comes
to Shelby County government, not
to the school system.
We don't give it to the schools.
We operate a Headstart program.
Shelby County government's in
the education business by
itself.
Then you have Race to the Top
money and other money involved
in helping the city schools
system, as we used to know it,
run pre-k.
And then there are other state
and other sources involved in
some other pre-k.
The fact is that because the
state education requirement on
school boards is k through 12,
not pre-k through 12, pre-k is
an option in the state of
Tennessee for school boards.
And Shelby County, in my
opinion, it can't be an option.
>> Dries: But again, the
resolution the school boards
looking at doesn't say
specifically pre-l.
Is that a hitch?
Is that going to make voters
think twice?
>> Ritz: Well, you have people
who are opposed to the thing
saying -- Well, there's no
commitment from anybody for pre-
k.
I could assure you that there's
a majority of the county
commission -- a real good sized
majority who support the pre-k
expansion with the school
system.
If in fact the school board
comes to us next year and there
isn't that in there and we do
have this sales tax passed, it
will get in there.
>> Barnes: Let me go to
Commissioner Basar and then
we'll get to Jackson here.
If, let's say, the tax go
through -- a lot of
hypotheticals here.
The tax goes through.
It's passed against your
objections.
Would you then work on the
commission to make sure that
money is steered toward pre-k?
I mean, would that ne your next
step as someone opposed to the
tax increase?
>> Basar: I'm not even that sure
that would be the exact next
step.
I mean, I think one thing that
we need to look at when we're
talking about pre-k is let's
look at the whole picture.
And let's come up with what's
the best plan for pre-k and not
have different pieces of it --
or at least understand how the
different pieces work together.
And one of the things that I'd
like to point out when we talk
about the savings -- I think
there's a misperception when you
talk about outsourcing the bus
drivers.
You talk about outsourcing the
janitorial services.
People aren't going to lose
their jobs.
It's just that instead of
working for Jackson Baker,
they're going to work for Bill
Dries.
And that's how it's going to
work.
And I think that's something
that a lot of people don't
understand when they're looking
at these.
They think people are going to
lose their jobs and in reality,
they're just going to start
working for somebody else.
>> Barnes: But there's only
savings if somehow they are paid
less.
I mean, if they go -- and I'm
not saying that's a bad thing.
I'm just saying, part of the
argument against those cuts is
that there are reductions in
compensation or benefits or
something as they go from
Jackson.
>> Dries: Or there are fewer of
them.
>> Barnes: Let's get Jackson in
here.
>> Baker: Frankly, I think they
should stay with me.
Bill can probably afford to pay
it more.
You have said, Mike, that -- and
you just said it again a while
ago that is the sales tax does
not pass -- the sales tax
increase does not pass, the
other alternative is property
tax increase.
Now, that's not a slam dunk
though because that's going to
get a whole lot of argument.
Can you spell out in some detail
the consequences to the school
system -- to the unified system
if neither of those taxes is
available?
>> Ritz: They're going to have a
real crisis in the May - June -
July time frame, making some
probably further tough decisions
to get down to a balanced
budget.
That's all I can say to them.
And I've shared this with many
of the school board members
individually and with Billy
Orgel multiple times.
He's chairman of the school
board.
That if they come to us with a
train wreck budget, I don't
think the county commissions
going to be very supportive of
anything.
>> Baker: Well now Steve -- I'll
follow that up with you.
Since you regard the sales tax
as regressive, how about the
property tax?
Would you support a reasonable
property tax increase on behalf
of the unified system?
>> Basar: That's a good
question.
>> Baker: That's why I asked it.
>> Basar: Right now, I don't
have enough facts and figures.
I would like to see the school
board come up with a budget
that's going to work within the
existing framework of the money
that they've been spending and
the money that we've got
available.
And I think there's a lot of
tough decisions that need to be
taken.
And we took one this week when
we said -- Alright, we'll pay
for your computer system.
And we talk about the 57 million
dollar gap.
That's 13 million dollars of the
57 million dollar gap.
So we've paid for that.
And, you know, I think we need
to look at the expenses and they
need to come up with some cuts.
I mean, there's a lot of
bureaucracy that they have.
And when you combine those two
systems together, there should
be some savings.
>> Barnes: Let's talk about when
you talk about savings and get
both your takes on this.
There has been talk off and on
over the years and it came back
up this week with Kriner Cash.
I don't know how to introduce
him but former, you know,
superintendant of the city
school side talking about school
closings, particularly in south
west Shelby County.
Is that where you think there
are more savings potentially is
closing underutilized schools?
Are they being aggressive enough
in closing schools that are
underutilized?
>> Basar: I don't think they're
being aggressive enough at all.
I mean, quite frankly, they're
behind the time table that the
transition planning commission
put forth.
They haven't appointed a
superintendant.
And they should be doing that.
They shouldn't be spending their
time debating a sales tax -- a
half a cent sales tax in their
meetings.
They should be appointing a
superintendant.
And they should be taking care
of their tough decisions that
they need to take care of.
>> Barnes: Mike, and we come
back to you.
You were shaking your head a
moment ago.
>> Ritz: The money we gave to
the school system this year --
this week appropriated for the
computer system, that's capital.
We're talking about operating
funds in the million to budget
-- the 30 million for the sales
tax, the 60 million.
All that's in the operating
budget.
The capital counts completely
different.
We spent capital money.
We do that all the time.
It's never counted.
>> Barnes: What about schools
closings?
Do you think that the combined,
the transition plan, the folks
in charge are being aggressive
enough about school closings?
>> Ritz: No -- No, I don't.
I agree with Commissioner Basar
on that.
I think they're going to have to
be more.
If they don't want to be
aggressive about these things --
about closing the schools and
taking care of the bus drivers
and others, they're really --
The deficit is going to be do
big that I think the county
commission is going to totally
choke on it.
They're not going to have any
assistance.
They've got some tough decisions
to make and frankly, it is kind
of disgusting, frankly, to not
see them moving faster.
>> Barnes: But isn't that part
of the argument of not putting
this tax on?
That was Mayor Luttrell's
argument and Commissioner
Basar's.
That use the leverage.
I'm taking you at your word that
you're frustrated with them.
Aren't you losing leverage if
you put the money in the fund
and say -- Hey, we're earmarking
this 30 to 60 million dollars to
the schools.
Then maybe the pressure's off
them to make these aggressive
cuts that you're both talking
about.
>> Ritz: There's no pressure off
at all.
First of all, the deficit
they're dealing with if they
make none of these decisions is
in the range of 140 million.
And 30 is just a little peanuts
of it.
Now I don't know how much we're
going to do but we're going to
need the 30.
I can't wait until next year's
chairman to say we need this tax
, budget for it, pay for it, and
then we've got to go get the
people to go for it.
>> Barnes: Bill?
>> Dries: Speaking of difficult
decisions, we are still awaiting
a court decision as we tape this
from federal judge Hardy Mays on
the whole school's lawsuit.
Does his decision on the
formation on municipal school
districts -- If he says they
stand.
The suburbs can form their own
school districts.
Do you have to refigure what the
school system needs because it
will be a smaller school system
in terms of students?
>> Ritz: Well, the school board
will.
No question about it.
I still think there's going to
be a substantially bigger
deficit for school systems.
Well, remember, Bill, I made the
point all spring and summer
about the bogus budgets prepared
for the school systems.
They were way too low.
They're going to need more huge
amounts of money.
>> Barnes: But are they going to
come to the commission for that?
>> Ritz: They would come to the
commission for everything they
can get away with.
And I am absolutely certain that
the suburban commissioners on
the county commission will be
looking to the county commission
to spend as much as they can on
schools.
>> Barnes: Yeah, alright --
Jackson?
>> Baker: There's another issue
that's coming up in the not too
distant future -- August 2013
when all the train wrecks happen
at once.
We're going to have the new
permanent school board -- seven
members unless the commission
petitions Judge Mays to let it
be 13.
And there's been a lot of talk.
It looks like a consensus if
there were 13, the same number
as on the commission.
But I believe Steve Basar
opposes that idea.
What are your thoughts?
>> Ritz: First of all, we don't
have to ask the judge to do
anything with the school board.
The ruling we got last August --
August of '11 gave us the
authority to do what we
statutory can do and that is
expand it.
The number is -- The optimum
number is 13 if there are no
municipal school districts.
If there are municipal school
districts, I don't think it will
be 13.
It will probably be nine or
eleven.
>> Barnes: Commissioner Basar,
let's get you on it.
What's your take on the make up
of the school board?
>> Basar: Well, we've got I
think the good seven people.
And I think that's the number we
should stick with -- or some
number maybe seven or nine.
And I don't have the research in
front of me but there's a lot of
research that says a smaller
board is a better board.
And I think 13 in even my short
tenure on the county commission
-- I think it's difficult to get
to a majority and get people to
act swiftly when you've got a
big board.
>> Barnes: Also, when we talk
about the court case and it
hangs over everything.
You know, the Hardy Mays rulings
to come.
Most recently, the county
commission -- check me if I get
this wrong.
You know, talked about
potentially creating the legal
liability of creating a
segregated school district.
I think you were critical of,
you know, that's just an effort
to deny municipalities the right
to form their own school
districts.
What's your take on the legal
case -- the commission which
you're a member of is taking in
this federal case?
>> Basar: Well, I think the
constitutional argument is
sound.
I think the equal protection
clause is a little bit of a
stretch.
I think it's how you're to
support that and frankly, I
don't think that's a case that
we want to win.
>> Barnes: The constitutional
argument is what, briefly?
>> Basar: Basically, that the
Tennessee legislature violated
the constitution by passing a
law that's specific to Shelby
County alone.
>> Dries: The constitution of
the state of Tennessee.
Mister Chairman, I believe you
have a different view?
>> Ritz: I don't think there's
any question that the school
systems to be created will be
segregated school systems.
It's a re-segregation of the
school systems of Shelby County.
Now, does that pass federal now?
The rules have changed.
Maybe not.
>> Barnes: If we end up with
these municipal school districts
that are essentially made up of
the independent parts of the
current county school system and
you have a new unified school
system that is, for all
intensive purposes, the old city
school system which is 90 plus
percent African-American and the
county school systems are a
little less.
They're a majority white but
they're a little more balanced.
Don't we just end up where we
were in terms of racial mix?
I mean, how is that?
It may be a separate system.
It may be a segregated system
but it doesn't create a new
segregated system.
It just perpetuates the
separations that exist now or am
I wrong about that?
>> Ritz: I think you've got the
circumstances wrong.
There are no -- We are operating
two school systems right now but
essentially, there's only one
approved.
The court allowed the school
systems because they both asked
for it -- to run as two school
systems.
City school system is already
out of business, legally.
They put themselves out of
business.
So there really is only one
school system.
>> Barnes: I think my question
-- and I'm repeating some that
I've heard from other folks.
Is more about a practical
matter.
And I'm not a lawyer.
So the legal side of this may be
that you've ended up with this
segregated school system.
But for all intensive purposes,
it's the same racial make up
that has existed for the last
ten years, isn't it?
>> Ritz: No, not exactly.
First of all, there are a lot of
black children in the
unincorporated areas of Shelby
County.
And they are spread through a
bunch of schools out in the
county -- what used to be the
old county school system.
Those children will be educated
by the unified school board.
So essentially what happens is
the school systems out in the
suburbs get whiter, literally.
And the school system that you
think of as Memphis in the
reserve areas is blacker.
>> Barnes: Your take on that,
Commissioner Basar?
You said you had some doubt
about the equal protection side
of this court case.
>> Basar: I think you've got a
lot of diversity in Germantown.
You've got a lot of diversity in
Bartlett and you've got some
diversity out on Collierville.
So to set up individual
districts, I don't see that as
being segregation.
I think there's other questions
that need to be answered in
terms of the students that are
going to the Germantown schools.
Today they might live in the
county.
Do they get to keep going to the
Germantown schools and what does
that do?
There's a lot of those kind of
questions that need to get
answered.
But I don't see that the
municipalities getting to set up
their own schools is
segregation.
>> Barnes: Jackson?
>> Baker: You know, when we're
talking about education, we're
talking about the youth of
Shelby County, of course.
There's an other issue that's
pending before the commission
and before other local bodies.
That also has to do with the
youth of Shelby County.
That's juvenile court.
I think both of you gentlemen
have taken a very critical
position of the court and it's
present configuration.
And in a way, it interfaces with
the rest of the community.
Could you elaborate on that a
little bit?
What do you think will happen
and what your objective is?
>> Ritz: Well, it's always
bothered me that the court sat
over and appointed literally the
attorneys that defended the
children they were going to try.
That didn't make any sense.
That should have been resolved a
long time ago.
And apparently, we're going to
resolve it now.
Frankly, the state of Tennessee
should be paying for this and
not Shelby County.
That's a separate issue.
But I think the court has a long
way to go to become more
transparent in this community.
They once were remodeled -- the
court.
But that is so long ago that
young people don't even know
that -- young adults.
>> Barnes: And your take,
Commissioner Basar?
>> Basar: Well, the juvenile
courts -- I met with Judge
Person early on when I started
out as County Commissioner
because I knew that issue was
coming forth and I wanted to
understand what their
perspective was.
And I think based on my meeting
with them, I got a sense that
they do want a change and they
do want to be a model court.
But I do think that there's a
lot that needs to happen and
they need to really work on the
transparency, their
accountability, and my
background in the pharmaceutical
industry.
You know, when we were sharing
plow, we had issues with the FDA
and our manufacturing.
And the first step is you have
to realize that we have a
problem.
And then you have to attack it.
And you need to have some
independent auditors.
You need to allow transparency.
And you need to really address
the fact that you have issues.
>> Barnes: And they've brought
in a number of independent
people.
I think the people form the
court would say -- Well, we've
brought in lots of independent
people.
And there's a commission, a
transparency commission.
Have they just not gone far
enough in your perspective?
>> Basar: Quite frankly, I
challenged them.
They came to us last week and
they had a little presentation.
They're doing a lot of meetings
and a lot of talking and they're
not doing any doing.
And so what I want to see is an
action plan that lays out steps
for each one of the points that
the justice department has
gotten.
And what are we going to do
specifically.
If there's training, what
specific training are they going
to do?
Who needs to get that training?
And when's it going to be done?
And then they can come to us and
they can give us updates on --
Okay, we have these action steps
to do and here's where we're at
on doing them.
>> Barnes: And we've got just a
minute left in.
Let's talk about budget.
It's a reappraisal year.
Real briefly, Chairman Ritz --
You've been through this before.
Reappraisal coming around.
The word on the street is it's
going to be a two to five
percent reduction in the overall
property values.
Separate from the schools
questions, what is the county
going to do with the potential
loss of revenue associated with
property reappraisal?
>> Ritz: Well, first of all, we
have to readjust the property
tax rate just to take care of
that deficiency.
That's probably a 10 to 15% tax
increase.
>> Barnes: Alright -- Well, then
I leave it right there.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chairman Ritz,
Commissioner Basar, reporters.
Thank you for joining us.
Join us again next week.
Goodnight.
>> (instrumental music)
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