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>> Kelly: THE GOVERNOR'S BUDGET PLAN GETS A LEGISLATIVE REVIEW.
REPUBLICANS CAN CLAIM A LEGAL VICTORY IN THE VOTER I.D.
BATTLE, AND DEMOCRATS CALL FOR A REPEAL OF HOUSE BILL 2.
WE'LL ANALYZE THE ISSUE.
>> Kelly: HI THERE, I'M KELLY McCULLEN.
THE SHORT LEGISLATIVE SESSION IS UNDERWAY, AND ONE OF ITS FIRST
ITEMS OF BUSINESS, GOVERNOR PAT McCRORY'S BUDGET PLAN.
GOVERNOR PAT McCRORY REVEALED HIS FULL BUDGET TO LAWMAKERS
THIS WEEK.
HE SAYS HIS PLAN WOULD BOOST THE AVERAGE TEACHER SALARY
THROUGHOUT NORTH CAROLINA TO OVER $50,000 A YEAR.
THAT'S IF YOU COUNT LOCAL PAY SUPPLEMENTS THAT
BOOST STATE SALARIES.
HIGHWAY PATROL OFFICERS AND CORRECTIONS OFFICIALS WOULD
RECEIVE PERMANENT PAY INCREASES.
AND MANY OTHER STATE WORKERS WOULD RECEIVE A ONE-TIME BONUS
OF 3% OF ONE SALARY UP TO A MAXIMUM OF $3,000.
>> WE CERTAINLY AGREE WITH THE GOVERNOR THAT THERE ARE CLASSES
OF POSITIONS THAT ARE SO FAR BEHIND THE MARKET, THEY NEED TO
BE ADDRESSED.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE HAVE BEEN SO LITTLE IN TERMS OF
RAISES OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS THAT WE ALSO NEED TO LOOK
AT THOSE, UH, INCREASES FOR ALL STATE EMPLOYEES.
>> Kelly: REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS WERE ASKING ABOUT
PUBLIC EDUCATION, INCLUDING TEACHER ASSISTANT FUNDING, THE
CONVERSION FROM TEXTBOOKS TO COMPUTER TABLETS, AND HOW TO
HELP STRUGGLING OR RURAL PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS.
>> WE COMPENSATE TEACHERS TO SOME DEGREE, NOT ENOUGH.
NOTHING ABOUT TEACHER ASSISTANTS.
AND WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF INGREDIENTS GO INTO MAKING A
SCHOOL'S PERFORMANCE GET-UP.
YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE THE SUPPORT IN THE CLASSROOM FOR THOSE KIDS
IN ADDITION TO THE TEACHERS.
SO WHAT HAPPENS TO TEACHER ASSISTANTS, YOU KNOW?
WHAT HAPPENS TO THE OTHER THINGS THAT SCHOOL SYSTEMS NEED?
>> Kelly: WHILE MANY LAWMAKER QUESTIONS SURROUNDED THOSE PAY
INCREASES, ONE-TIME PAY BONUSES AND THE LACK OF ANY PROPOSED
RAISE FOR STATE RETIREES, THE BUDGET LAYS THE GROUNDWORK TO
LAUNCH THE CONNECT NC BOND PLAN, WHICH VOTERS APPROVED
OVERWHELMINGLY THIS SPRING.
>> WE'RE SO THANKFUL FOR THE SUPPORT THAT THE CITIZENS GAVE
US WITH THE BOND PLAN.
WE THINK THAT THIS IS GOING TO MOVE THIS STATE FORWARD.
THE BUDGET REFLECTS THE NECESSARY POSITIONS TO ENACT THE
BOND AND DO IT RESPONSIBLY, EFFICIENTLY AND EFFECTIVELY LIKE
WE PROMISED THE VOTERS.
>> Kelly: LURKING IN ANY RECENT STATE BUDGET NEGOTIATION IN
RECENT YEARS, AT LEAST, HAS BEEN HOW MEDICAID EXPENSES COULD
RIPPLE ACROSS THE STATE OPERATIONS BUDGET.
SO FAR, MEDICAID EXPENSES ARE MEETING EXPECTATIONS, SAY SENATE
LEADERS.
>> WE'VE SEEN A YEAR WHERE OUR COSTS HAVE ACTUALLY DECLINED FOR
WHAT RECIPIENTS ARE SPENDING, AND WE ALSO SAW FEWER PEOPLE
ENROLL IN THE SYSTEM THAN WE HAD PROJECTED.
STILL A LITTLE NERVOUS AS TO HOW MUCH THAT'S HOLDING.
ONCE WE'VE CROSSED INTO THE NEW CALENDAR YEAR, WE'VE SEEN SOME
UPTICK IN ENROLLMENT THAT'S COMING IN THAT ERODED SOME OF
THAT DECLINE WE'D SEEN EARLIER IN THE FISCAL YEAR.
>> Kelly: STEP ONE OF THE BUDGET PROCESS IS NOW IN THE BOOKS.
THE GOVERNOR RELEASED HIS BUDGET.
LAWMAKERS HAVE REVIEWED IT.
BUT THE NEXT BUDGET CHANGES AND NEXT MOVES WILL COME FROM THE
LEGISLATURE ON JONES STREET.
>>> A FEDERAL JUDGE UPHELD NORTH CAROLINA'S VOTER I.D. LAW THIS
WEEK.
JUDGE THOMAS SCHROEDER ISSUED A NEAR 500-PAGE RULING THAT
DISMISSES CLAIMS MADE AGAINST THE 2013 ELECTION REFORM LAW,
WHICH REQUIRES VOTERS TO SHOW A PHOTO IDENTIFICATION TO VOTE OR
VOTE A PROVISIONAL BALLOT IF THEY DON'T.
IT REDUCED THE NUMBER OF EARLY VOTING DAYS AND ENDED SAME-DAY
REGISTRATION.
EXPECT VOTER I.D. OPPONENTS TO APPEAL THIS RULING.
SOME EXPECT THE CASE TO POSSIBLY REACH THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.
HOUSE ELECTIONS COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN, REPRESENTATIVE DAVID
LEWIS OF HARNETT COUNTY JOINS US.
THE RULING THIS TIME GOES YOUR WAY FOR VOTER I.D. IN NORTH
CAROLINA.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
>> I'M VERY PLEASED THAT THE FEDERAL JUDGE WAS ABLE TO TAKE A
LOOK AT THE COMMON SENSE VOTER I.D. AND OTHER ELECTION FORMS --
REFORMS THAT WE PROPOSED AND FIND THAT THEY DID EXACTLY WHAT
WE SAID THEY WOULD DO, WHICH IS WE WANTED EVERY PERSON TO BE
ABLE TO CAST THEIR VOTE AND TO FULLY PARTICIPATE IN THE
ELECTION PROCESS.
THE JUDGE LOOKED AT ALL THE CLAIMS TO THE CONTRARY.
UM, MOST ESPECIALLY THE CLAIM THAT SAID THAT, UH, LESS PEOPLE
WOULD VOTE AND SAID, UH, NUMERICALLY, YOU'RE WRONG ON
THAT, AND WE'RE VERY PLEASED THAT THE JUDGE FOUND IN OUR
FAVOR.
>> Kelly: HOW DOES NORTH CAROLINA'S VOTER IDENTIFICATION
LAW SQUARE WITH OTHER STATES, WHICH STATES, IF THERE ARE LAWS
SIMILAR TO IT?
>> OH, WE ARE VERY MUCH IN LINE WITH MOST OF THE OTHER STATES
THAT REQUIRE SOME KIND OF AN I.D. TO BE SHOWN.
OUR -- IN FACT, OUR ENTIRE ELECTION PROCESS IS VERY MUCH
MAINSTREAM WITH WHAT OTHER STATES DO.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE 10 DAYS OF EARLY VOTING.
WE HAVE A LOT OF HOURS THAT PEOPLE CAN SHOW UP AND VOTE,
NONTRADITIONAL VOTING TIME.
AND -- BUT I GUESS THE REAL CRUX OF THIS CASE CAME BACK DOWN TO
THE VOTER I.D.
AND, UM, IT'S JUST A COMMON SENSE MEASURE.
YOU CAN SHOW YOUR I.D. AND CAST YOUR VOTE, AND, UH, THE JUDGE
RECOGNIZED THAT THAT WAS NOT AN IMPAIRMENT OR A TACTIC TO
PREVENT FOLKS FROM VOTING.
>> Kelly: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS DEBATE AFTER
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE '50s, THE '60s, AS CIVIL RIGHTS, THAT
MOVEMENT, MOVED THROUGH AMERICA AND STILL MOVES?
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY FOLKS WOULD BE FEARFUL OF ANY CHANGES
TO VOTER IDENTIFICATION LAWS OR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THEM JUST
BASED ON PAST U.S. HISTORY?
>> WELL, LET ME BE CLEAR.
I AM DEEPLY SENSITIVE AND DEEPLY APPRECIATIVE TO ALL OF THE CIVIL
RIGHTS PIONEERS WHO HAVE WITHSTOOD THINGS, BARRIERS TO
THEIR PARTICIPATION, AND HAVE OVERCOME THAT.
AND WE ARE BETTER OFF AS A SOCIETY TO BENEFIT FROM THEIR
SACRIFICE.
UM, THIS IS NOT CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE, UM, TO ME AT ALL.
THIS IS, AGAIN, A COMMON SENSE ISSUE WHERE FOLKS ARE TRULY ABLE
TO PRODUCE A PHOTO I.D. TO ATTEST THAT THEY ARE WHO THEY
SAY THEY ARE AND THEN TO EXERCISE THEIR RIGHT TO VOTE.
UM, I AM -- I HAVE LISTENED TO THOSE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
ISSUE.
AND TO BE FRANK WITH YOU, I THINK IT'S SIMPLY JUST THAT.
I THINK THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE CONTRARY AND OPPOSED TO ANY AND
EVERY POLICY CHANGE THAT WE TRY TO MAKE AS REPUBLICANS IN THE
GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
AND, UM, THIS WAS THE COMPLAINT DU JOUR, AND, UM, THEY HAVE
CONTINUED TO MAINTAIN IT.
BUT WE HAVE CONTINUED TO MAINTAIN THAT WE WANT EVERYONE
TO VOTE, AND THE ELECTION RESULTS SEEM TO BE BEARING OUT
THAT ACTUALLY A HIGHER -- A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE ARE
NOW PARTICIPATING IN THE ELECTION.
SO IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT'S HAD THE EFFECT OF, UM,
REDUCING THE NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO VOTE.
>> Kelly: IF YOU VOTED IN THE PRIMARY, YOU SHOWED YOUR I.D.
THIS CYCLE.
>> YES.
>> Kelly: AND IF YOU VOTED, YOU SHOWED YOUR I.D., AND THEY ASKED
YOU WHERE YOU LIVED, AND SOMETIMES YOU HAD TO REPEAT
YOURSELF.
DID THE PROCESS GO AS SMOOTHLY AS YOU WANTED BY AND LARGE
ACROSS THE STATE, OR DID LOCAL PRECINCT WORKERS -- DO THEY HAVE
SOME WORK TO DO TO LEARN THE SYSTEM?
>> I THINK BY AND LARGE THE PROCESS WENT VERY SMOOTHLY.
I THINK IT MAKES SENSE TO PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO SHOW THEIR I.D.
AND TO PROVE WHO THEY ARE AND THEN TO CAST THEIR VOTE.
I THINK THAT ENOUGH TIME NOW HAS PASSED, WE'RE GOING TO VISIT
WITH THE STATE BOARD OF ELECTIONS AND DO OUR ROLE AS THE
OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE AND SAY, HEY, DID THINGS GO AS WE THOUGHT
THEY DID?
BUT BY ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, MORE -- MORE PEOPLE
PARTICIPATED.
AND, UM, THAT SEEMS TO BE A GOOD THING.
>> Kelly: IS THIS DEBATE SETTLED IN NORTH CAROLINA RIGHT NOW?
DO YOU WANT TO HEAR ANY MORE DEBATE ON THE TOPIC, OR AFTER
THE PRIMARY 2016, WAS THE LAW PROVEN TO BE EFFECTIVE?
>> WELL, I THINK -- I THINK THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT
QUESTIONS.
UM, I THINK THE PRIMARY OF 2016 AND THE ELECTION OF 2014 PROVE
THAT THESE VOTER INTEGRITY IMPROVEMENTS, UH, IN NO WAY
PREVENTED PEOPLE FROM TAKING PART IN THE CHANCE TO VOTE.
BUT I'D BE NAIVE, AS WOULD ANYBODY LISTENING TO THIS SHOW,
IF I THOUGHT THAT THOSE THAT CAN'T WIN AT THE BALLOT BOX
WOULD NOT CONTINUE TO SUE ON NOT JUST THIS BUT NEARLY EVERY OTHER
REPUBLICAN INITIATIVE THAT WE HAVE.
UH, WE SPEND AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME IN COURT.
I'M -- AGAIN, I'M HEARTENED BY THIS JUDGE'S RULING.
BUT I'D BE FOOLISH TO THINK THAT, UH, THOSE THAT ARE OPPOSED
TO THE REFORMS THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO BRING
ABOUT WILL NOT CONTINUE TO SUE AND SUE AND SUE UNTIL,
HOPEFULLY, THEY CAN PREVAIL IN COURT OR BE TOLD BY THE U.S.
SUPREME COURT THAT IT'S FINALLY OVER.
>> Kelly: REPRESENTATIVE DAVID LEWIS, THANK YOU FOR BEING ON
THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> Kelly: SOME HOUSE DEMOCRATS ARE CALLING FOR A FULL REPEAL OF
ALL PROVISIONS FOUND IN WHAT'S CALLED HOUSE BILL 2.
THIS WEEK WAKE COUNTY REPRESENTATIVE GRIER MARTIN
JOINED MEMBERS OF THE FAITH COMMUNITY.
THERE HAS BEEN NO HOTTER TOPIC IN NORTH CAROLINA THAN THE NEW
LAW, COMMONLY CALLED HOUSE BILL 2.
DEMOCRATS HAVE KICKED OFF THE SHORT LEGISLATIVE SESSION
CALLING FOR ITS FULL REPEAL, AND WAKE COUNTY REPRESENTATIVE GRIER
MARTIN JOINED WITH JEWISH LEADERS THIS WEEK.
>> IT'S A DEEP HONOR TO HELP JOIN MY PRESBYTERIAN CHRISTIAN
VOICE TO THE VOICES OF JEWS FROM AROUND NORTH CAROLINA,
CALLING -- DOING THE EXACT SAME THING THAT THE JEWS THAT I KNEW
GROWING UP IN CHARLOTTE ARE DOING AND CALLING FOR JUSTICE IN
OUR STATE.
IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT JUST ABOUT EVERY RABBI IN THE STATE
OF NORTH CAROLINA IS SIGNING A LETTER CALLING FOR THE FULL
REPEAL OF HOUSE BILL 2.
>> Kelly: HOUSE BILL 2 PASSED THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND WAS
SIGNED BY GOVERNOR PAT McCRORY A FEW WEEKS AGO IN RESPONSE TO A
NOW NULLIFIED CHARLOTTE CITY ORDINANCE.
THE CITY PASSED THAT ORDINANCE TO OFFER LOCAL PROTECTIONS FOR
TRANSGENDERED CITIZENS TO ALLOW THEM TO USE RESTROOM FACILITIES
REFLECTIVE OF THEIR GENDER IDENTITY.
>> THROUGHOUT HISTORY, JEWS HAVE BEEN THE VICTIMS OF
DISCRIMINATION, AND WE CANNOT REMAIN SILENT TODAY.
THIS BILL THREATENS OUR ENTIRE COMMUNITY, A RELIGIOUS MINORITY,
BY REMOVING THE RIGHT TO SUE IN STATE COURT IF WE EXPERIENCE
DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF RELIGION.
BUT IT GOES MUCH FURTHER, PROHIBITING PROTECTIONS FOR
WORKERS, FOR THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, AND FOR TRANSGENDER
PEOPLE.
>> Kelly: REPUBLICAN LEADERS OFFERED SOME DIFFERING OPINIONS
ON WHETHER HOUSE BILL 2 COULD BE LEGISLATIVELY ADDRESSED IN THE
SHORT SESSION.
SENATE LEADERSHIP SAYS THERE'S NO EXPECTATION OF REPEALING THIS
LAW.
HOUSE LEADERS HAVE SAID CERTAIN PROVISIONS OF HOUSE BILL 2,
MAINLY A PROVISION FORCING ANTIDISCRIMINATION LAWSUITS INTO
THE FEDERAL, NOT STATE COURT SYSTEM MIGHT MERIT SOME DEBATE.
TAMI FITZGERALD LEADS THE NORTH CAROLINA VALUES COALITION.
AND YOU ARE A SUPPORTER OF HOUSE BILL 2.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU, KELLY.
>> Kelly: WELL, THERE'S NO SHORT OF EDITORIALS OUT THERE
REGARDING HB2.
HOW SHOULD NORTH CAROLINIANS PERCEIVE THIS PIECE OF
LEGISLATION, WHICH IS NOW LAW?
>> WELL, HOUSE BILL 2 JUST RESTORES COMMON SENSE TO THE
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, BECAUSE IT REQUIRES THAT MEN USE THE
MEN'S RESTROOM AND LOCKER ROOM AND WOMEN USE THE WOMEN'S
RESTROOM AND LOCKER ROOM.
IT PROTECTS THE SAFETY AND PRIVACY OF ALL OF OUR CITIZENS
AS WELL AS BUSINESSES.
>> Kelly: WHAT WOULD THE CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE HAVE DONE,
AND HOW COULD IT HAVE AFFECTED OTHER TOWNS OUTSIDE OF
CHARLOTTE, SINCE THE STATE CAME IN AND OVERRODE THE ORDINANCE TO
NULLIFY IT?
>> WELL, THE WAY THE CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE WAS WRITTEN, IT
BASICALLY PROHIBITED SEX-SPECIFIC BATHROOMS.
SO IF YOU MAINTAINED A BUSINESS OR A PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION, WHICH
IS ANYPLACE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, YOU COULD NO LONGER MAINTAIN A
WOMEN'S BATHROOM AND A MEN'S BATHROOM, BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN
IN A FASHION THAT TOOK OUT AN EXCEPTION FOR BATHROOMS AND
LOCKER ROOMS AND SHOWERS.
BUT BEYOND THAT, THE CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE WOULD HAVE IMPACTED
BUSINESSES WHO CONTRACT WITH THE CITY OF CHARLOTTE, REQUIRING
THEM TO ADOPT INTERNAL HR POLICIES FAVORING THE LGBT
COMMUNITY.
AND, UH, REALLY, IT WAS AN OVERREACH BY GOVERNMENT -- A
LOCAL GOVERNMENT INTO THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY NOT JUST
AROUND THE STATE BUT AROUND THE COUNTRY.
AND SO ANY BUSINESS THAT CONTRACTED WITH THE CITY WAS
IMPACTED BY THE ORDINANCE AS WELL AS THEIR BATHROOMS.
THEIR BATHROOMS WERE IMPACTED, TOO.
>> Kelly: THE BRANDING HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT THE BATHROOM
BILL.
AND THE PERCEPTION IS THE DIRTY OLD MAN WILL USE THE LAW TO GO
INTO THE GIRLS BATHROOM AND PEEK OR DO WHATEVER IT IS YOU DO.
AND THAT'S THE WAY I PERCEIVED THIS AT ITS MOST -- I GUESS,
MOST DESCRIPTIVE.
IS THAT ACCURATE?
WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IN CHARLOTTE HAD THEY GONE TO
GENDER-NEUTRAL BATHROOMS?
WOULD IT HAVE BEEN THE WILD WEST IN THAT TERM?
>> WELL, WE HAVE EXAMPLES FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY WHERE WE HAVE
THESE LAWS IN PLACE WHERE THAT'S HAPPENED.
JUST LAST MONTH IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, A MAN ENTERED THE
SHOWER ROOM AT A PUBLIC BATHROOM FACILITY AND BEGAN TO UNDRESS
WHILE HE WAS WATCHING YOUNG GIRLS ON A SWIM TEAM UNDRESS AND
GO TO THE SHOWERS.
AND WHEN HE WAS APPROACHED, HE SAID THAT HE HAD THE RIGHT TO BE
THERE.
THE LAW IN WASHINGTON HAD CHANGED.
WE HAD THIS HAPPEN JUST LAST WEEK OR THE WEEK BEFORE IN --
JUST OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON, D.C., AT THE POTOMAC MILLS MALL,
WHERE A MAN STUCK A CAMERA UP UNDER A BATHROOM STALL.
SO VOYEURISM IS -- IS A TOPIC THAT, UM, THEY DON'T LIKE TO
TALK ABOUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, BUT IT IS HAPPENING.
THERE'S A VIDEO ON THE -- ON THE WEB THAT SHOWS HUNDREDS OF CASES
WHERE MEN HAVE DRESSED AS WOMEN JUST FOR THE PURPOSE OF GOING
INTO A WOMAN'S BATHROOM OR LOCKER ROOM WHERE THEY HARM
THEM, *** ASSAULT, EVEN *** IN SOME CASES.
>> Kelly: THOSE PEOPLE ARE CRIMINALS, AND THEY'RE USING THE
LAW TO BREAK ANOTHER LAW.
WHAT ABOUT FOLKS OUT THERE WHO GENUINELY IDENTIFY -- THEY MAY
HAVE BEEN BORN A MALE, BUT THEY IDENTIFY AS A FEMALE AND VICE
VERSA.
WHAT'S THE SOCIALLY CONSERVATIVE ARGUMENT TO ACCOMMODATING THEM?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO CREATE A LAW WHERE THE
ENFORCEMENT IS BASED ON FEELINGS AND NOT FACTS.
AND THAT'S WHAT THE CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE DID.
NOW, WHAT HOUSE BILL 2 DOES IS ACCOMMODATE THOSE PEOPLE BY
ALLOWING PRIVATE BUSINESSES AROUND THE STATE TO PROVIDE A
THIRD OPTION, A BATHROOM THAT IS A SINGLE STALL FACILITY MADE
JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE IN A MULTI-STALL
BATHROOM, AND THAT IS A REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION, AND
THAT'S WHAT HOUSE BILL 2 DOES.
>> Kelly: SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A BATHROOM -- I SEE THESE
BATHROOMS CALLED FAMILY BATHROOM.
>> YES.
>> Kelly: A MAN OR WOMAN CAN USE IT, BUT LOCK THE DOOR BEHIND YOU
OR SOMEONE WILL WALK IN ON YOU.
>> RIGHT.
>> Kelly: THAT'S WHAT THIS IS -- THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THIS
IS ABOUT.
>> THAT'S FREE.
THE BUSINESS OWNERS ARE FREE UNDER HOUSE BILL 2 TO CREATE
THAT TYPE OF SITUATION.
WHAT HOUSE BILL 2 DID WAS PROTECT THE FREEDOM OF BUSINESS
OWNERS NOT TO BE FORCED TO ALLOW MEN INTO THE WOMEN'S BATHROOM
AND WOMEN INTO THE MEN'S BATHROOM.
THIS -- THIS, BY THE WAY, CREATED LIABILITY ON THE PART OF
THE BUSINESS OWNER BUT NOT THE CITY OF CHARLOTTE.
>> Kelly: WELL, MISS FITZGERALD, THANKS SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR
TIME, A FEW MINUTES WITH US, TO DISCUSS YOUR SIDE OF THE ISSUE.
IT'S A HOT ISSUE.
I'M SURE WE'LL BE SEEING IT AGAIN THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION.
>> WELL, THANK YOU.
IT'S JUST ABOUT COMMON SENSE, REALLY.
>> Kelly: PUBLIC POLICY POLLING RELEASED DATA THIS WEEK ON VOTER
OPINION OF HOUSE BILL 2.
JUST OVER 60% OF DEMOCRATIC VOTERS POLLED OPPOSE HB2.
46% OF INDEPENDENTS OPPOSE IT.
REPUBLICANS WHO WERE POLLED SUPPORTED HOUSE BILL 2 WITH A
56% APPROVAL RATING.
ALL TOLD AND OVERALL, 32% OF ALL PEOPLE POLLED SAY HOUSE BILL 2
HELPS NORTH CAROLINA.
53% BELIEVE IT HURTS THE STATE'S IMAGE.
THERE ARE 15% OF US OUT THERE WHO AREN'T SURE IF IT'S
AFFECTING OUR IMAGE AT ALL.
DUKE UNIVERSITY'S MAC McCORKLE IS HERE TO DISCUSS HB2.
MAC, I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE ARE TOLD THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE IF THEY
SUPPORT HB2 AND THEY'RE BAD PEOPLE IF THEY OPPOSE HB2.
WHAT -- HOW DID THIS BILL GET SO HOT?
>> WELL, IT -- IT -- IT HITS ON THE SOCIAL ISSUE FRONT, WHICH
IS -- WHICH IS HOT IN NORTH CAROLINA.
IT'S BEEN HOT SINCE JESSE HELMS AND BEFORE JESSE HELMS AND
PROBABLY WILL REMAIN THAT WAY.
BUT IT -- IT ALSO IS AN ISSUE THAT THE INTERESTING THING
POLITICALLY IS THERE'S NOWHERE TO HIDE ON THIS.
YOU'RE EITHER FOR IT OR YOU'RE AGAINST IT.
AND THERE'S NO KIND OF MIDDLE GROUND ON IT AT ALL.
IT ALSO REFLECTS THE -- WHAT POLITICAL SCIENCE CALLS THE
POLARIZATION THAT'S GOING IN THE ELECTORATE.
YOU'RE EITHER LIBERAL OR CONSERVATIVE, REPUBLICAN OR
DEMOCRAT, AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE -- THERE ARE ONLY TWO
CHOICES THESE DAYS, IT SEEMS TO BE.
>> Kelly: HOW, UM -- HOW DEEPLY ARE THE HEELS DUG IN ON THIS
ISSUE ON BOTH SIDES?
THE CITY OF CHARLOTTE AND ALL THOSE SUPPORTERS WHO SAY THIS
BILL MAKES SENSE.
IT'S PROGRESSIVE.
THE CONSERVATIVES IN RALEIGH WHO, BY VETO-PROOF MAJORITIES,
PASSED THIS BILL AND SAID NO CHANGES TO SPEAK OF.
MAYBE SOME TWEAKS HERE AND THERE.
>> OBVIOUSLY, BOTH SIDES ARE CREDIBLY DUG IN, ESPECIALLY ON
THE LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE EXTREMES.
THE PROBLEM FOR GOVERNOR McCRORY, THOUGH, IS FOR THOSE
FEW PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT DUG IN.
THE IMPRESSION THAT THE BILL IS LEAVING, AND I MEAN THE
IMPRESSION, NOT THE SPECIFICS OF IT.
THE IMPRESSION IS THAT IT'S BAD FOR NORTH CAROLINA, AND THAT'S
WHY YOU'RE SEEING IT MOVE IN THE POLLS FROM EVEN SUPPORT FOR THE
BILL AT FIRST TO -- TO OPPOSITION.
THERE'S JUST A SENSE THAT SO MUCH WAS LAID ON IN THIS BILL
THAT WAS EXTRANEOUS TO THE -- TO THE ISSUE GOING ON IN CHARLOTTE,
LOTS OF ISSUES ABOUT DISCRIMINATION GOING AROUND,
THAT IT'S BECOME A NET NEGATIVE FOR THE REPUBLICANS AND GOVERNOR
McCRORY.
REGARDLESS OF THE PARTICULAR ISSUE THAT IT STARTED OUT TO BE,
IT'S GROWN INTO A LARGER ISSUE ABOUT NORTH CAROLINA'S IMAGE AND
REPUTATION.
>> Kelly: AS SOMEONE WHO STUDIES GOVERNMENT POLICY, STRATEGY, HOW
DEEPLY DO NORTH CAROLINIANS OR AMERICANS LOOK INTO A PIECE OF
STATE LEGISLATION AND PICK IT APART, BECAUSE THIS BILL IS
BRANDED AS THE BATHROOM BILL, BUT IT'S GOT THREE OR FOUR
DISTINCT PARTS.
ANY NUMBER OF THEM ARE WORTHY OF A HEAVY POLICY DEBATE.
>> RIGHT, RIGHT.
IT -- IT'S -- IT'S THE BATHROOM BILL PLUS.
I THINK THAT WHAT HAPPENED HERE, AND PROBABLY GOVERNOR McCRORY
WISHED IT HADN'T HAPPENED, IS THAT IT GOT BEYOND THE BATHROOM
BILL.
THE ATTACKS ON LOCAL GOVERNMENTS' PREROGATIVES.
PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS, BUT THEY KNOW THAT -- I THINK
ENOUGH PEOPLE KNOW, WOW, LOCAL GOVERNMENT -- STATE GOVERNMENT
JUST SAID LOCAL GOVERNMENT CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT NOW.
YOU KNOW, REALLY LIMITED WHAT LOCAL GOVERNMENT COULD DO IN THE
AREA OF EMPLOYMENT, IN THE AREA OF DISCRIMINATION.
AND IN A SPECIAL SESSION, DOING THAT WITHOUT ANY -- I THINK
PEOPLE ALSO HAVE THE SENSE THIS WAS RUSHED UP.
AND PEOPLE, WITHOUT KNOWING SPECIFICS, WHEN THEY HEAR A
BILL'S BEEN RUSHED THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE, THAT USUALLY MEANS
SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH IT IN PEOPLE'S IMPRESSIONS.
>> Kelly: CHARLOTTE CITY LEADERS, YOU CAN'T SPEAK FOR
THEM, BUT THEY CHOSE TO FORWARD A BILL THAT WOULD FUNDAMENTALLY
CHANGE SOME CITY STATUTES AND RIPPLE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, AS
IT'S TURNED OUT.
THEY DID IT DURING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEAR.
I DON'T BELIEVE POLITICS -- ANYTHING IN POLITICS IS AN
ACCIDENT.
SO IT ROLLS OUT, AND WE CALL A SPECIAL SESSION.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT IT'S 2016 WHEN THIS IS HAPPENING WHEN IT
COULD HAVE HAPPENED IN 2017 OR '18?
>> SURE.
OH, THE NATIONAL FOCUS IS SO MUCH BRIGHTER, AS YOU CAN SEE.
I MEAN, GOVERNOR -- I MEAN, PRESIDENT OBAMA IS TALKING ABOUT
THIS BILL IN LONDON.
SO -- BUT I THINK THAT WHAT THE CHARLOTTE POLITICS WAS THAT IT
REALLY CAME OUT OF THE '15 MAYORAL RACE AND STARTED TO
MOVE.
THE ONE THING I SAY TO PEOPLE IS THAT THE INTERESTING THING IS
HOW PROGRESSIVE, HOW FAR, THE CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE WENT.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IN HOUSTON, THIS COULDN'T -- COULDN'T PASS A
REFERENDUM.
MIGHT NOT EVEN PASS A REFERENDUM IN CHARLOTTE BEFORE ALL THIS
CONTROVERSY.
BUT THIS WAS QUITE A BIG STEP FOR THE CHARLOTTE CITY COUNCIL
TO TAKE AND ONE THAT DOESN'T REFLECT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE
REST OF THE SOUTH.
SO IT WAS A VERY -- IT'S VERY NORTH CAROLINA FOR CHARLOTTE TO
HAVE DONE THIS AND NOW TO BE THIS REACTION IN THE
LEGISLATURE.
IT JUST SHOWS WHAT A DIVIDED STATE WE ARE.
>> Kelly: THE POWER OF BRANDING THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION AND
WHAT IT MEANS, DOES BRANDING MAKE THE DIFFERENCE WHEN YOU
LOOK AT A POLL, AND SOME POLLS SAY THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE OPPOSE
IT GREATLY, AND ANOTHER POLL SAYS, WELL, THIS GROUP OF SOCIAL
CONSERVATIVES REALLY SUPPORT HB2.
IS IT BRANDING?
>> IT -- WELL, IT IS BRANDING IN THIS CASE, IN THIS RESPECT.
SOMETIMES ISSUES ARE JUST ISSUES.
AND SOMETIMES IT'S JUST ABOUT THE BATHROOM PRIVACY, IS WHAT
THE REPUBLICANS WANT TO SAY.
IT GREW WAY BEYOND THAT.
AND IT'S A REFLECTION NOW -- THE PROBLEM FOR GOVERNOR McCRORY IS,
REALLY, IT'S A REFLECTION ON HIS LEADERSHIP.
YOU KNOW, THE CAROLINA COMEBACK.
HIS WHOLE STORY WAS ABOUT HOW WE'RE GONNA GET MORE JOBS IN
HERE AND BRING ALL THESE BUSINESSES IN AND PRO NBA AND
PRO NCAA.
AND NOW ALL OF THAT SEEMS TO CRASH WITH THE REALITY OF WHAT'S
GOING ON IN HB2.
I DON'T KNOW THAT IT MATTERS SO MUCH FOR THE LEGISLATURE.
I THINK IT MATTERS, THOUGH, THAT IT'S A PRESIDENTIAL YEAR AND A
GUBERNATORIAL YEAR, WHERE GOVERNOR McCRORY'S ALREADY IN A
TIGHT RACE.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE'S NOT GOING TO GET SUPPORT.
HE DOES HAVE SUPPORT FOR THIS.
THERE IS STRONG SUPPORT FOR HIS POSITION.
IT'S JUST THAT THERE'S EQUALLY STRONG SUPPORT AGAINST IT.
AND THEN AGAIN, WHEN YOU HAVE BUSINESSES SAYING WE DON'T WANT
TO DO BUSINESS WITH NORTH CAROLINA, IT'S JUST A BAD
MESSAGE FOR SOMEBODY WHOSE CAMPAIGN MESSAGE THEME IS THE
CAROLINA COMEBACK.
>> Kelly: WELL, EVERYONE'S TARGETING THE GOVERNOR.
THERE'S A BIG GUBERNATORIAL RACE GOING ON.
THE GOVERNOR'S DOWN FIVE, SIX POINTS LAST POLL I SAW.
THIS BILL -- WHETHER OR NOT -- WHO KNOWS WITH ANY GIVEN DAY.
HOWEVER, YOU LOOK AT THE VOTE TOTALS.
THEY WERE VETO-PROOF.
EVEN IF THE GOVERNOR PUTS HIS SIGNATURE ON IT OR HE VETOES
THIS BILL TWO WEEKS, THREE WEEKS AGO AND HE PUNTS IT BACK HERE,
I'VE SEEN A VETO GETTING -- GOT -- I'VE SEEN A VETO GET
OVERRIDDEN HERE.
>> OH, IT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN OVERRIDDEN.
YEAH, YEAH.
AND I'M SURE THAT WAS PART OF THE GOVERNOR'S CALCULATION.
HE'S IN A HARD SPOT.
IT'S A VERY TOUGH SPOT.
BUT IN RETROSPECT, IT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN A STRONGER MOVE
FOR HIM TO HAVE VETOED AND MAYBE TRIED TO GET INTO A SHORT
SESSION AND GOT A BIT -- A BIT OF A DIFFERENT BILL.
BUT HE -- I GRANT YOU THAT IT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN
VETO-PROOF -- I MEAN, THAT HIS VETO WOULD HAVE BEEN OVERRIDDEN.
>> Kelly: LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS POLICY, THE BATHROOM BILL.
CAN YOU CRAFT A STATE LAW THAT RESPECTS TRANSGENDERED PEOPLE,
IF THAT'S THE AIM OF THE CITY ORDINANCE, AND LETS THEM FEEL
MOST SECURE AND SAFE, WHILE KEEPING OUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO
WOULD USE THIS LAW TO EXPLOIT, IN THIS CASE, YOUNG WOMEN OR
FEMALES?
I'VE NOT HEARD IF THE LAW COULD BE CHANGED TO PROTECT A CLASS
WHILE KEEPING OUT OTHER PEOPLE WHO WOULD ABUSE IT, I SHOULD
SAY.
>> I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT -- THAT THE LEGISLATION
ASSUMED THAT YOU COULD ESTABLISH THESE HARDENED CATEGORIES, UH,
THAT -- DETERMINED COMPLETELY BY YOUR ANATOMY OR BY YOUR -- YOUR
BIRTH CERTIFICATE, AND THAT PROBABLY WAS A FAULTY
ASSUMPTION.
WE'RE GOING TO BE EXPERIENCING THESE KIND OF ISSUES GOING
FORWARD, AND I DON'T HAVE ALL -- ALL THE ANSWERS.
BUT I THINK THAT PROBABLY THE BILL IS JUST SO INFLEXIBLY
WRITTEN THAT THAT'S THE REAL PROBLEM WITH IT.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE SENSE ABOUT IT.
EVEN IF THEY'RE DISCOMFORTED WITH THE LIBERAL POSITION, THE
CONSERVATIVE POSITION SIMPLY SEEMS TOO INFLEXIBLE AND NOT IN
KEEPING WITH THE REALITY, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE ONE OF THE
ISSUES IS -- IS OTHER -- AS A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE POINTED OUT,
THERE ARE NO ENFORCEMENT PROVISIONS TO THIS BILL.
SO WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN TO SAY THAT HERE IS HOW YOU HAVE TO
GO TO THE BATHROOM IF THERE'S NO ENFORCEMENT BEHIND IT?
>> Kelly: I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT BATHROOM LAW.
ARE THERE CURRENT BATHROOM ORDINANCES SO IF YOU WALKED IN A
WOMEN'S RESTROOM AND YOU WERE PROUDLY MAC McCORKLE, WOULD YOU
GET IN TROUBLE?
WHAT HAPPENS?
>> IT'S -- IT'S COMPLICATED.
I'M NOT A TOTAL EXPERT.
BUT, APPARENTLY, THERE WAS SOME KIND OF CHARLOTTE ORDINANCE THAT
THE -- THAT THE CITY COUNCIL ELIMINATED THAT DID ESTABLISH
THAT YOU -- THE LAW ABOUT THAT.
BUT, AGAIN, THERE ARE NO ENFORCEMENT PROVISIONS.
AND BOTH SIDES CAN THINK OF PARADE OF HORRIBLES HERE WHEN
YOU'RE DEALING -- YOU KNOW THE STORY ABOUT WE NEED TO PROTECT
WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
WELL, YOU CAN THINK OF HORRIBLES ON BOTH SIDES THAT PROBABLY HAVE
VERY LITTLE TOUCH WITH -- WITH REALITY.
AGAIN, THOUGH, I DO THINK THAT IF THIS HAD JUST BEEN A BATHROOM
BILL, IF THEY HAD JUST GONE INTO SESSION AND SAID THAT CHARLOTTE
ORDINANCE, IT'S ELIMINATED.
IT -- IT'S NO LONGER EFFECTIVE.
I DON'T KNOW THAT WE WOULD HAVE HAD AS MUCH NATIONAL FUROR.
BUT WHEN YOU ADD ALL OF THE OTHER ELEMENTS, AGAIN, THAT
PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW ABOUT BUT THAT GOT WRITTEN
ABOUT, THEN PEOPLE STARTED TO SUSPECT, AGAIN, DOING IT IN THE
SPECIAL SESSION, TOO, THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG.
>> ANTIDISCRIMINATION LAWSUITS, THE LIVING WAGE, YOU CAN'T RAISE
THE MINIMUM WAGE.
>> LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ARE REALLY HANDCUFFED.
YOU KNOW, POLITICALLY, WHEN YOU SEE THAT, YOU HAVE TO SAY, WOW,
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO -- IT'S -- YOU CAN'T HANDCUFF LOCAL
GOVERNMENT THAT MUCH.
SO, AGAIN, I THINK PEOPLE'S COMMON SENSE SAID THIS SEEMED
LIKE A DESPERATION MOVE.
AND THERE ARE A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE WHO SAID,
WELL, I -- I DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT THE CHARLOTTE CITY COUNCIL
DID, BUT LET'S THROW THEM OUT.
LET DEMOCRACY WORK IN A LOCAL WAY RATHER THAN TRYING TO --
IT'S IRONIC THAT WE'RE CENTRALIZING ALL THESE THINGS IN
RALEIGH NOW.
>> Kelly: COULD ARGUING OVER HOUSE BILL 2 AFFECT ANY OTHER
STATE ISSUES OR DISTRACT THEM FROM, SAY, TEACHER PAY RAISES OR
THE BUDGET DEBATE OR ANYTHING, OR DO YOU SEE IT BEING SIMPLY
ISOLATED, UM, AND WE'LL LET THE PROTESTORS ON BOTH SIDES STEP
FORWARD AND SUPPORT HB2?
>> THAT -- WELL, THAT -- OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S WHAT I THINK
GOVERNOR McCRORY AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HOPE.
IT -- THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME SPILLOVER EFFECT, BUT I THINK
THAT THE MAIN PROBLEM POLITICALLY IS FOR THE
REPUBLICANS AND ESPECIALLY FOR GOVERNOR McCRORY, THEY HAVE A
POSITIVE -- THEY HAD A POSITIVE MESSAGE ABOUT THE CAROLINA
COMEBACK.
AND THIS JUST SEEMS TO COLLIDE WITH THAT.
I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S DEADLY, BUT IT CERTAINLY PRESENTS A
PROBLEM THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
SOMETHING IS OUT THERE THAT'S SAYING THEIR MESSAGE IS NOT
CORRECT, AND THAT'S A TOUGH ONE FOR AN INCUMBENT GOVERNOR IN A
TOUGH RACE TO DEAL WITH.
>> Kelly: MAC, WE'LL STOP RIGHT THERE.
MAC McCORKLE, DUKE UNIVERSITY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON
"LEGISLATIVE WEEK IN REVIEW."
>> THANKS, YEP.
>> Kelly: FIND US ONLINE BY SEARCHING NORTH CAROLINA CHANNEL
ON FACEBOOK OR TWEET US.
@NCChannel IS OUR HANDLE.
THAT'S ALL FOR THIS WEEK.
WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK AND ONLINE.
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