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Hello kevin clarkson here.
Inviting you to be with us at our pikes peak prophecy summit this june seventeen eighteen
and nineteen.
In lovely colorado springs. We have a wonderful jam packed three days for you with over twenty.
Prophecy specialists and speakers. Let me give you a couple of three highlights it'll
be there.
On friday night we're going to see and premiere screening. Of the samaritan it's the true
story in film.
Of the romanian communist regime. And how that came to fall. By the influence of christians
there in the land.
It's by director kevin. Mcafee who will be with us live in person and then on saturday
we have bob cor nuke with us.
Who will be discussing his possible location for the temple that is a new site.
Being proposed this would change everything. In the middle east.
And then finally on sunday we wrap it up with the great rapture debate.
We have a pre-treat rapture in a post read rapture specialist who will go head to head
and we will take place.
I hope you'll be there where this is going to be a great conference. See you there.
Welcome to prophecy in the news i'm your host kevin clarkson. Joined today by james walker.
Hello brother kevin great to be with you. I want to reintroduce you to our.
Prophecy in the news family because it's been some time since you may have been with us.
James is the founder and president of watchman fellowship. Which is really a look at cults
of alternative religions.
In answering those things. He's also what i just professor for the new orleans.
Baptist theological seminary which as you might guess is located in new orleans. Anyway.
It's wonderful to have you and your fresh off a debate with an islamic.
Crowd last night and we're going to do two programs. So people will want to catch that
we'll talk about that.
But can we generally approach this. This idea of cults and alternative religions.
Yes general we're living in a culture right now where everything has changed.
And so you're more likely now to have a next door neighbor who is a muslim or an atheist
than a methodist
or a presbyterian. Through our culture is changing and it is a dizzying array of things
out there.
It's hard to keep up with this so one of things that we try to do it our ministries apologetics
ministry me.
Defending the faith. And food. But we focus in a in a narrow area.
How do we defend the faith in the area of new religious movements. Cults the aa cult.
World religion.
So our job is to give christians the tools and resources they need to be able to build
a bridge to speak the truth
and love. To not have a fear of starting a gospel conversation with that. Mormon neighbor
with that with the buddhist.
With somebody and agnostic. A family member. Someone involved even in wicca or. Scientology
will get to.
You mention the mormons we'll get to that in a moment because your own testimony and
life story you.
You were a fourth generation mormon and you came to christ so i will say that toward the
end of this program.
But in generally speaking you are right. I have a friend that works with baptist collegiate
ministries in boston.
Which is the university city. Capital of the world. Right. Yes.
More universities per square foot in boston than anywhere else and i'm yeah. The harvard.
Not build a globally one out of ten higher ed graduates come to boston.
In the area that's amazing but they went up there and. A couple of observations. They
settled and got a home.
And after a time they found their neighbor was. Was a wiccan. Yes. Yes he's a. She's
a earth worshipper and a witch.
And then. One of their friends went to plant a new church and.
You and i would identify i believe is evan jellicoe s bible believing born again. Preaching
the old time gospel.
Where were up there were called. Evil jellicoe evil evil jellicoe were the bad guys yes.
So this is the world we're living in. And as you're saying it's really everywhere.
And you know as we think even about prophecy james of course.
In the end times there's going to be a massive delusion that the lord sins and.
People are going to be so deceived more than at any time in history. That's absolutely
right and part of. Part of the.
The debacle. Warning signs of the end times is going to be false prophets and deceiving
if possible the very elect and.
You know we're not at that point yet but you can see the snowball getting bigger.
You can see we're moving in that direction at a frightening speed i think. I agree with
you.
Well i wanted to kind of take as a beginning point of our discussion. Genesis three the
first deception.
Where the serpent comes in the garden.
And those of you that know the bible you'll be very familiar with this passage but just
to review some things.
The serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field. Which the lord god had made.
And he said it to the woman.
Yeah god said. You shall not eat. Of every tree of the garden. So there's a beginning
questioning of the word of god.
And the woman said of the serpent we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden. God of said you shall
not eat of it.
Neither show you touch it. Lest you die. So there were adding to god's word. And the serpents.
God didn't say don't touch it he said don't eat it. So she's added to it.
And the serpent said into the woman you shall not surely die.
So there is no death there's no hell there's no punishment a promise of immortality.
Apart from the personal god of the bible right. Well said. God to know that in the day you
eat thereof then your eyes.
Will be opened. So there's the secret. Inside life secret knowledge and enlightenment and
you will be as gods.
And so they are again appeal to me and. Pride that we shall be god like. Knowing good and
evil.
Or i'd say right and wrong. So we can be our own god. You see the values in there. The
moral the.
Moral or ethical component. Once you shift off of a propositional ethic god has said
thou shalt not.
What are you left with experience you listen.
So it looked good the fruit looked good to eat it seems to be something to be desired.
So you eliminate that and that's how you end up being the one deciding what is good and
evil. They call your god.
You've cut god out. You become god. Yeah. Well.
Could you just kind of sketch some of the general marks of cults and i know there are
many brands and. You can slice.
To finally but it is in a general sense. How would you characterize it is difficult to
do and it's.
Sometimes you find a religion that seems so christian. Initially. But you end up with
a deviation now.
There's a there's a lot of variation. All christians don't have anything or everything.
But you do find in the bible that there are some core beliefs that are non-negotiable
these are things that we just
cannot afford to be wrong. You could be wrong about some doctrine. And still still be a
believer. Ok. Right.
But if you're wrong on some doctrine it d.d.'s so much. Make it makes you dead wrong. And
so.
We look at kind of the mathematical formula. Say add subtract multiply divide. If they
are.
And you saw some of that in genesis. Yeah. If. If the group in question adds to god's
word with new scripture.
Or maybe essential. Teachings from the leader. That you can't really understand god unless
you've got their material.
The bible is a good book.
But the bible by itself is not going to ever get you where you need to go so add to god's
word. Secondly.
Subtract from jesus. They love jesus believe in jesus. But he's not the second person of
the trinity.
He's not god in the flesh. You have a different jesus he is not and yet not not sufficient
thirdly.
They'll multiply the requirements of salvation. And so what christ did. His atonement is necessary
for salvation.
But it's not sufficient. You have.
To do these set of works to add to what god's done so and it could be anything from a special
diet.
To pain a certain amount of money to the organization but. Jesus by himself can't say.
You need jesus plus their set of good works to go with it. And finally division.
They'll divide their followers loyalties. Saying that you can't be loyal to god.
Unless you're loyal to our organization we are the only. Factory authorized.
Distributors of eternal life so even if you do all the good works.
You're still not going to make it to god and less you come with our group. We're the only
ones that can get you guys.
You need it violates the mediator ship. The bible says there's only one mediator between
god and men.
The man christ jesus. A cult will come in and try to be another mediator between you
god ok. Ok.
Those are good observations. For the sake of. Maybe general use of that word. Would
you specify a lot between.
Behavioral colts versus cults of belief. Yeah yeah.
You have the word cult and i'm careful using it not because ever since jonestown.
In one thousand nine hundred seventy nine. Yet all these.
Nine hundred thirteen people die in the cult down in guyana and south america.
The word cult has been used by the news media and the even by the general public is some
kind of *** suicide group
or something.
Well that could be a cult but when you and sociologists will use the word cult to talk
about the size of the religion
or. How it fits in socially. With the mores of the crier. And those are all valid. You
know definitions but.
When we're using the word call we're talking about a group that claims to be christian
or compatible with christianity.
But they deviate from those essential doctrines. So that they do the add subtract multiply
and divide.
We don't mean they're about to commit mass suicide or that. They're involved in criminal
activity.
And we're not saying it's part of the aa call. Which is a whole different subject. All right.
Well what do you think are some of the main groups that we at least see in our nation
today.
At this hour because i know you stay on top of turin's. Yeah. You know if you look at.
Maybe another good term would be counterfeit christianity. Something that claims to be
christian.
You know you have certainly jehovah's witnesses. You know i everyone. Everyone i think.
Has had the knock on the door and.
They've got their briefcases and they're ready to go now live in texas
and they're at the post office you go to the post office there they are with little stands
and.
I have a thing that the jehovah's witnesses.
They'll say they're christian they believe in jesus
but they deviate they did jesus they think they're talking about is not. The second person
of the trinity.
Really he's the archangel michael they would say. Who never died on the cross and never
rose bodily from the dead.
So the mormons church of jesus christ of latter day saints certainly would fall in that category
good people. Solid.
Hard working people of faith. But the religion of mormonism. Teaches a different jesus. A
different gospel.
A different. Even god. Mormons would teach that god is married. So there's both god and
his wife.
Heavenly father heavenly mother. God before he was god he used to be a man on some other.
World some other earth.
Who progressed. To join the ranks of god. And if you're a worthy latter day saint or
mormon.
And go to through the temple ceremony if you have the potential also of becoming a god
so while they use christian
terminology. Here's the problem. They use the right words. Totally different definition
for those words. Jesus.
Haven't scripture. They believe all these things but ask what do you mean scripture.
If you were thinking by.
All right. Well the bible but also the book of mormon the doctrine and covenants.
One of the best things to do when you're talking with somebody of another another faith. Ask
them what does that mean.
Tell me what. What do you mean when you say scripture. What do you mean when you say.
Salvation.
So have them clarify clarification.
Well that's something
and we're going to talk about your own conversion in a little bit of christianity out of mormonism
but.
Those are two common groups. Are there any kind of fringe or. You know unusual groups
that are big today in our nation.
We you know we have an informational literally thousands of different religions out there
that we try to track
and maintain some information on. You know we. There's a host of u.f.o. Religions.
That believe that they're in telepathic communication with aliens. Right. Heaven's gate was one
of them we write.
The late ninety's or early two thousand that groups doesn't exist anymore than i admitted
mass suicide
but almost all of it did. Their day came and went but there's others there's the. There's
the armageddon arc.
Time based on the texas mexico border they believe that they are.
Telepathically communicating with aliens and they have in the hangar.
They're on their compound they have a space craft and they believe that.
The united states is going to be destroyed in its armageddon ark.
This is the ark like no was ark
and only the people they've been trained of how to fly this spacecraft are going to be
saved. Get out of here alive.
And it's there in the compound now they say how many people are feeling well there's that
tiny group there's probably
forty five fifty people. You know eight or ten families but this. For them this is real
and.
I asked them about being able to see the spacecraft as they told me it was actually cloaked.
So it was a fourth dimensional class that you could actually see it but it's in the
hangar.
Ok that's kind of the bizarre extreme end of it you know. We have. There's a group down
in south florida. Who.
Leave that jesus has already returned. Jesus to south florida. Jose luis de miranda and.
He he believes that he is the second coming of christ and.
He has he claims two million followers i think that's inflated. But certainly.
Hundreds of thousands of followers most audience and it would be a large oh it's huge and.
He more recently came back
and said not only is he the christ he's also the anti-christ you get two for the price
of one. And he's actually.
Tattooed six six six on his arms and many of the followers including children. Are taking
the sick sick sick stat.
And this is like he's both christ and anti-christ my first thought well maybe he's half right.
On this sounds to me like he's conflicted.
Does get you get the bizarre extremes you have the rail ians is another u.f.o.
Group that they have actually in israel they have it in the sea. Rarely ends.
You know so you know it's a church of scientology we've been sued.
Twice by the church of scientology once you're nine and a half million dollars i've been
sued by them.
They are bizarre their religions mixed in with alien.
Beliefs they'll go to some of our folks because of personalities like tom cruise.
Tom cruise and who was it somebody just got out of that this year. That was it.
The girl that played in the king of queens. Oh yes you can think of her name right there
but and.
Well a lot of people are leaving and.
Even some of the top executives are coming out now some of them still believe in dianetics
they still believe in the
doctrine but the current leader after the death of l. Ron hubbard. David miscavige it's
like the.
You know there's a lot of tension lot of problems in that organization right now.
You know what size their actual membership ever got with a lame. They claim i think five
million. But that. Again.
If it's more than one hundred fifty thousand i would be surprised ok. Point. Ok. Well again.
Their claims are somewhat esle terek aren't they. Was an l.
Ron hubbard a science fiction writer before he turned in that he's quoted as saying that
if you do want to get be a if
you want to get rich you don't write for a penny a word you start a religion. And now
the.
This on how does is that he never actually said that but the truth is he did start a
religion.
And became quite wealthy at it. Ok ok. Well what do you tell people with the best way
to avoid big c by a goal.
Well the best way of recognising any counterfeit whether it's a dollar bill or whether it's
a counterfeit. Rolex watch.
The best way is to be absolutely familiar with the genuine.
And so if you know god's word inside out and backwards when something comes along that
deviates. You're going to say.
Ok but what does the word of god say about that doctrine or that practice. So that's
going to be ultimately.
The best defense for. The counterfeits if. I'm told that. You know.
Those that work in banking and financial industries. They've learned to handle the real.
So often that they are suspicious pretty quickly of its. You know. Questionable. Now today
they'll take their.
Yellow marker and hold it up to the light. I don't know if your experiences are like
mine but.
Maybe i look more suspicious than you do but.
You know they just sort of do that as a as a task because apparently the quality of the
paper the. Can you know.
It's hard to. And you can't really can't fit the real. I mean especially without nation.
Yeah but if you don't know.
But if you don't know you know you have you know let you know.
Like if you're if you're a tourist in your you know you're in the philippines or someplace
and you're getting money exchange i mean they could get you almost anything
and you're not going to know because you're not. The know you we don't know and. Yeah.
And so i've been on those trips and you know.
You go to pay for your meal you just hold out all that money you know you don't know
where
or how you know you're very i don't know what it's worth or. What colors it's supposed to
be i have no idea. Yeah.
That's scary admit it is. Well. I want to i want to talk about a resource you have with
us today.
Our guest is james walker he's the president of watchman fellowship. A real apologist for
christianity.
You have several resources through your ministry
but this is what are your most popular isn't it by far as in one of our most popular the
book.
The concise guide to today is religion to spirituality. Tell us what we find in here.
Well first of all i had help i need to be i need to be honest about that my staff helped
me we spent over ten years on
that book. What we did is we took every one of our files back at our headquarters in arlington
texas.
And we reduced it down. You know. All those filing cabinets let's get it into one book.
And so we have alphabetically eight izzie over one thousand six hundred on the year
look.
Cults are called groups churches denominations. Controversy your doctor's practice is spiritual
leaders.
Everything you could think of and we have the fast facts and. The cross references.
So it's as if this group teaches.
Modalism you go what's most well it's a. It's a cross reference you go back and look all
that's what's wrong.
And so it's a it's a difference between. That denomination and this particular other religion
over here.
So it's a fast facts easy to look up all alphabetical. And we've been getting a lot of positive response
from the book.
Well that's great. We're happy to offer this reporting ninety five.
Plus shipping and handling fourteen ninety five plus shipping and handling and you can
go to the website.
Prophecy in the news dot com or call the eight hundred number on your screen. But yeah i've
perused that a bit.
It's nothing unless you're bill gates you'd read straight through.
I understand when he was eight years old he started reading the world book encyclopedia.
And completed it before he was like fifty. But to most people it's a reference guide.
Right so you say.
Let's say you're. Your niece you're your son. He starts getting involved in koba you go.
Kabbalah what is the.
What it what you. And out when you get the bush to kind of versions of kabbalah.
There's kabbalah center which is what donna's involved in that's the most more esoteric
and then there's like the jewish.
Could be mysticism and we could break that down for you
and for a lot of times that's really all you need you just need to fast facts. Understand
where this is coming from.
So i want to give a people a place to turn. Because jesus said. Be where a false prophets.
But you know what kevin.
We can't be where unless we're first aware. There you go and.
False prophets don't walk in the door saying oh by the way i'm a false prophet. You know
there's no.
Fair labeling you know they're going to say hey i'm demon possessed can i tell you something.
You know it's good it's going to look christian
and of you're deceived you don't know it because nobody wants to be deceived. Well. Nobody
knows they're in a cult.
You're right. Nobody. Signs up. Last one to know all my family do i found out. Speaking
of that.
You came out of a family that was in a cult them. Let's let's hear a little bit about
your story james.
Well my background before i came involved in all of this is i was raised a mormon. Fourth
generation. So.
I mean it was to me it was so real that joseph smith was a prophet of god that the book of
mormon was scripture more
accurate better than the bible.
And i you know i believed it was true i was baptized when i was eight i received the priesthood
and served as a deacon teacher priest i did baptism work for the dead. In the salt lake
city temple in utah.
But did you get the magic underwear. I didn't do the underwear part.
Yet you had to be a certain age to get them to go but you have to go through another temple
ceremony.
To that to that point. But the whole time i was there i i never had an assurance that
my sins were forgiven.
Now they keep you busy and you're trying to live right you're trying to do. Do good but
the book of mormon says this.
You haven't bought grace or you say. After all you can do. You don't get any grace.
In this you do everything possible that you can do and. And so you have to deny yourself
of all ungodliness.
The book of mormon and as a last page of the book woman. His grace is sufficient if you
deny yourself of.
All unrighteousness in the godliness. And you know after a while. Kevin is like the
holy spirit.
You know you're a sinner. I mean you try to. You try to suppress that. But you know.
You know the wages of sin is death you know there's going to be a judgment day and i never
had an assurance what if.
What if i stand before god and i'm not forgiven. But i had some christian friends who cared
about me.
And during this period of time and it was over so. You know a number of years really.
God put the right person at the right time to either ask me a question. Or share with
me a bible verse or in one case.
Show me something in my own book of mormon i wasn't even aware of them.
And god used to help me transition from mormonism. To to christianity. Realizing that were saved
by grace.
And it's just grace. It's not anything that we can do to earn or deserve it. Great.
And there is and they think faith alone. Place alone. And so. God.
Use those christian friends and so one of the things that we try to do our ministry
is.
Help people to be that kind of friend. If you know someone.
I know our viewers right now they think they could tell me the name of a job as witness
or mormon or a muslim or
or an agnostic atheist. These are sometimes this is their family. They're talking about.
We want to help.
We we want to be there and say listen this isn't. This is not over yet. This is not over.
God has a plan.
And he may even want you to be there to ask that good question not not to bash or attack.
Right. But.
But to get begin that dialogue.
And so we want to come by and our ministry watchman come along with some tools to help
you. To be able to care.
Are we on that conversation. That gospel discussion about jesus. How would you approach that.
Or how would you advise people to approach. Someone. Let's say you know in love.
Yeah well i mean first of all tell me what not to do it this way i used to do it. And
it's just my personality.
I've pretty much gotten over it but i would do it exactly the wrong way.
My first when i first became a christian after being a mormon here's my approach.
I will go up to some of my mormon friends and i would say you're wrong. And i can prove
you're wrong.
Ten different ways i can show you're wrong.
When nobody's going to respond well to that you wouldn't like that i wouldn't like that.
So i realized after a while.
Not the best approach right. How can i speak the truth. In love. So what i've kind of done
now is. Turned it around.
And it's just saying you've got a problem and i can prove it if i turn it around. I
have a problem.
Maybe you can help me. I have seen some things that have made me lose my faith in the book
of mormon.
But i want to be open minded and if i'm not seeing things.
I want to be humble enough to go if i'm not seeing it right i want to be willing to be
corrected.
Can i show you some of the things i've been struggling with. And maybe you could help
me.
Now want to show him the same stuff. But it's totally different.
To approach it that way and i hope i really am humble enough that i don't think i know
it all
and i'm willing to look at it another opinion still. But that builds relationship.
Instead of trying to win the argument to me times given. About winning the argument. And
not.
And not reaching the person. I talked last week with not a mormon but.
As i visited with you earlier i visited with a major skeptic. And after two hours. We had
a.
What i call respectful conversation. And in your own coming to christ out of mormonism.
It wasn't one conversation on the did it. It's sometimes we have to.
I love the also winning moments where you know you have a conversation show the gospel
somebody responds.
And i've seen that and i praise god for that. But in the day in which we live with the deceptions
that are out there.
I think we have to have the long patient look.
It is and i you know i've had the times when i've met with it with the job was witness.
One situation and i remember one with a mormon. And it was like a talk with them an hour.
They're ready to come to christ
but you know what i found out there had been so many things that happened before that meeting
so you were coming kind
of sweet beginning the end of the story the ones that i had also did you have read john
chapter four.
So we do get to experience that. Well we've been talking with james walker and. Former
mormon.
Not only now a strong solid christian and an advocate unable to really refute some of
the errors but has broadened.
His expertise to all manners of alternative religions and cults.
Will be doing it on the show that you want to catch because he's debated within the islamic
me
and who converted from christianity. And that will be certainly something you want to catch.
But i want to say to you that to however you're coming in listening today. The lord jesus
does love you and you know.
Satan plants the doubts in our mind. To doubt the word of god. And then the try to add to
the word of god.
And then try to make ourselves and lift ourselves. But you can no more do that than.
Then you're able to put your hands under your.
Under your shoes and raise yourself up off the ground god it's got to lift us up out
of the myrick lie
and put a new song in our heart and that comes
when we look to jesus christ the son of god who came for us from haven't died on the cross
was buried.
Rose again three days later. And it's my faith in him. And in his power that we are forgiven
and made new.
Call on him today if you don't know him. And the rest of us as we keep looking up. He's
coming back. Thank you.