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>> Kimsey: Professor Tukufu
Zuberi holds a doctrine in
sociology from the University of
Chicago.
He's the author or editor of
several books, articles, essays
and reviews and has received
numerous awards for his academic
work.
But we know him best from the
popular PBS series, "History
Detectives," and we are so happy
to have you on the program
today.
>> Zuberi: Its my pleasure to be
here.
>> Kimsey: Well you know, it
looks as if you guys are just
having a great time on that
show.
You know, every time I watch, it
just looks like that these
layers to the stories that keep
popping up.
And one of the things I used to
say to people or some reporters
I used to work with is that the
truth will always surprise you.
It's a kind of a story that's
almost counterintuitive in some
ways.
And you see that happen all the
time on "History Detectives."
>> Zuberi: That's what I love
about the show.
The important thing to recognize
is that when I'm surprised, I'm
actually surprised because I'm
not an actor.
And I'm not good at acting.
I don't even tell good fibs.
So when I'm discovering
something, when I'm being
presented with some new
information, it is actually,
genuinely new information for
me.
And then on top of that, it has
really been my pleasure to kind
of engage with people in this
dynamic way because its not only
that you're finding out a fact
that will generally enhance
people's understanding, you're
finding out a factor.
You're finding out some
information about something that
means something to somebody
else.
And I think that's why the show
resonates with people.
>> Kimsey: And you can't write
this stuff.
You can't write this stuff.
The one that pops in mind
automatically is the one where
the lady had the record that was
recorded by the ***.
And you traced it back to the
studio and discovered that the
engineer had worked a few weeks
later with one of the great
icons of jazz.
>> Zuberi: Louis Armstrong.
>> Kimsey: That's it.
>> Zuberi: And so here is the
place where Louis Armstrong is
going to record his first solo
ever.
Okay?
Here is that place.
Here is that space.
So this place records a number
of other great jazz musicians.
This particular engineer who
worked on the album that was
being produced by Louis
Armstrong and the band that he
was playing with at that time --
this engineer is a member of the
***.
But he's producing this song and
doing a great job at it.
And producing a lot of other
jazz musicians.
So the studio where they're
recording at has a legendary
reputation among jazz musicians.
Some jazz musicians go to
Richmond to make that pilgrimage
to say, "I went there where it
all started."
This is where Louis Armstrong
did his first solo.
But this guy, this *** member,
was also recording records for
the ***.
And so, you know, in some ways
it's a shocking story for her
but it's a shocking story for
all of us.
Because how is this guy on one
hand going to be doing jazz and
on the other hand, you know,
pledging allegiance to the ***
and making *** albums and
propaganda.
>> Kimsey: Of all the episodes
that you've done on "History
Detectives," what is your
personal favorite?
>> Zuberi: You know, I have many
personal favorites but one I
just can never shake out of my
head.
And this was a story we did with
a woman named Joan Maynard.
And this was during the first
season.
And Joan had an old
Ventriloquist doll stuck up on
her kitchen cabinet way up
there, you know, where grease
was on it.
Dust was on it.
Everything was on it.
And she pulls it down.
And she says, "I want to know if
this was also made by Charlie
Mac, the same person who made
the famous - most famous dummy
ever.
>> Kimsey: Which would be
Charlie McCarthy?
>> Zuberi: Charlie McCarthy.
>> Kimsey: Right.
>> Zuberi: And so she wants to
know - Is this his black cousin?
(laughter)
>> And you know, the story was a
wonderful story.
So I did a genealogy of this
dummy.
And you know -- and we did.
It was made by the same person.
It was, you know, a very
valuable dummy.
In fact, it was much more
valuable than being stuck up on
a shelf like that.
And she's such a wonderful
woman.
She donated it to and gave
him a copy of the episode that
we did.
But the thing that really
captured me in this particular
investigation was when we were
concluding the story and I was
explaining to her all of the
evidence that we found -- and we
had listened to a bunch of LPs,
which were the acts that the
ventriloquists had done, and her
father had an act where he did
11 voices.
He pitched 11 voices on stage
and had all of these dummies
talking to each other.
He was a master at the game.
And what we had taped was him
performing.
So we came back.
We thought it would be nice to
play that for her.
And we played it for her.
And then I looked over and she
was in tears.
And she says, "I really want to
thank you because I haven't
heard my father's voice since
1960."
And its at that moment that I
though, "You know, you better be
careful with what you're doing
because you're involved in
people's lives and they take
this very seriously.
And so you're going to have to
take it very seriously."
And I saw the power and the
potential power of television to
do something positive and
enlightening in individuals'
lives.
And for me, after that moment, I
was sold.
And this is ten years later.
>> Kimsey: Well you know, in
doing research about you, you
were asked a question by
somebody who was going into
college -- going to college.
And you asked them -- They asked
you whether they should major in
sociology or history.
And you said that they should
major in sociology with a weight
towards history.
And I think its because of that
human connection.
>> Zuberi: Yes, yes.
I mean, I have, you know, I have
been a sociologist for many
years.
And I've always tended towards
the strong historical side.
I think its virtually impossible
to tell any story without
reflecting on the historical
implications of that story
because, you know, if you think
about it, everything instantly
becomes history all the time.
And we can only talk about
history in the past and live in
the now.
So I always think that if you
don't understand history, you're
kind of taking the wrong
approach from the beginning
because a person who doesn't
really appreciate history --
doesn't really grasp history is
kind of like a baby.
They don't know what came before
them.
So they're starting fresh with
you since they don't have the
history.
You can sell them a bag of goods
and they wouldn't know it.
So people really need history
just as much as babies need
information to inform them about
the world we're in.
And I think for young people who
want to understand society, they
need to understand the history
of society.
And that's why, you know, this
story on the *** -- even in
contemplating should I do this
story or not, this was a big
question in my head.
Like why am I going to spend
some time talking about the
***.
You know, its definitely -- I'm
not the kind of person that is
going to be a friend to the
***.
So why should I do that?
But then I thought -- I took a
different step and I said no.
People need to know about the
***.
And once you get into the
intricate nature of the ***, of
race relations and you find
everybody is close in it
together.
There's a fabric here which is
making up American society.
And as segregated as America can
be at times, that segregation
never prevents people from
interacting.
And you know, segregation has
had a lot of ills that it has
thrown on us.
But one of the things that is
has never been able to prevent
is the mutual interaction of
people.
Because, you know, men and women
like to have sex and they have
it across segregated lines all
the time.
And children like to play with
each other and they play across
segregated lines all the time.
You don't get on a football team
because you want to be on a all
white team or you want to be on
a all black team.
You want to be on the best team.
>> Kimsey: Taking it back to
what you were talking about, you
didn't feel at the beginning of
that story that that was really
something that you wanted to do.
In fact, you even said that on a
camera.
"I don't know if I want to be
doing this story about the
***."
But its not in the end -- What I
respect about your work is the
fact that its not about --
You may have a visceral reaction
to a story but that isn't
something that you bring to the
story in the sense that you let
the story unfold and you find
the greater truth in the story,
no matter how strange it may be.
The engineer who not only did
the *** record, but Louis
Armstrong.
>> Zuberi: Amazing.
And you know, this is the beauty
of life in some ways, is that
its never along the straight and
narrow path that we think it
should be.
And whenever we dig deeper, we
find things, which reveal to us
some of the complexities of our
reality.
And this was a complexity of the
reality.
And in some ways, its kind of
symptomatic of America.
You know, those good old days
when there were just white
people in this particular space
never existed.
Those good old days when people,
you know, things were all so
great.
Those good old days usually
never exist.
They're myths for us.
And those myths are what we need
to overturn in order to gain a
better understanding of our past
and our present.
>> Kimsey: That's a real
journalistic standard.
It is a real journalistic
standard because a lot of people
-- you know, the danger of
repeating my self here.
A lot of people who weren't
trained that way would want to
have a certain kind of
conclusion.
"Oh, I want that story to be
this way."
Which, in the end, doesn't serve
history at all.
>> Zuberi: And I think it just
-- it creates mythology.
I mean, its not going to give
you the reality of what's going
on because one think about
history is its dirty.
I mean, we have the ways we want
to read it.
Like sometimes we want to read a
war.
We just want to know who were
the generals.
And what did they say in the
room where they were.
Well, I'm more interested --
What happened in the trenches
and how did they really talk in
the trenches.
Not the image of, you know, this
is what's going on.
What were they really doing?
I once did a story about an
African American and a Jewish
guy who went to Spain and fought
in the Spanish Civil War.
They were part of the Abraham
Lincoln brigade.
These guys go over there and
fight and they're in the
trenches together.
And this is before World War II.
So this is already an integrated
brigade.
It's not part of the U.S.
Government.
The U.S. had passed laws and
restricted U.S. citizens from
going and fighting in the
Spanish Civil War.
However, these individuals
thought that they had to fight
against fascism, even before the
beginning of World War II or
before Europe joined World War
II in '39.
So that they went to fight there
and they're in the trenches
together.
And this particular story was
about a story that this white
guy had written about this ***
at that time and it was very
glowing -- talking about his
heroism.
He saved lives.
He saved his life.
He was an example for him.
You see?
And so, that's the reality of
soldiers fighting.
Right?
>> Kimsey: Yes, yes, yes --
That's right.
>> Zuberi: Fighting against
Fascism before the integration
of the U.S. military, which had
to happen after World War II.
>> Kimsey: What's your favorite
period in history?
I think I read somewhere that
you were fascinated from the
1940s to the 1970s.
>> Zuberi: I really am
fascinated by that period of
time because I think this is one
of those moments where we have
really been battling with coming
to terms with the standards of a
new humanity.
I mean, you know, if you look at
that period of time, you get
that successful defeat of
fascism by the world coming
together.
And the world doesn't just
reconvene and say, "Let's go
back to the old way."
They reconvene and say no.
Eleanor Roosevelt stands up and
says, "We need a universal
declaration of human rights
where everyone has a right."
Now here becomes another ideal
about freedom, another ideal
about what it means to be a
human being.
Because she sat at a table with
Jews, Muslims, Hindus,
Buddhists, Taoists, scholars,
biblicals, all kinds --
physicists.
Everybody sat at the table and
said, "Lets come up with a
document, which we can say
represents a statement of
reaffirming our humanity and the
further rejection of the racism
of fascism, which almost
destroyed the world in the name
of white supremacy.
So that was a fantastic
challenge for us as human
beings.
And then you get the Civil
Rights Movement coming in the
United States.
And its happening and it is
changing everything.
People's behaviors are changing.
How we relate to each other --
it is changing.
What we think we can demand of
each other is changing.
The face of America hasn't been
the same since.
And its not only in America --
The face of Africa changed.
The face of Europe changed.
The face of the entire world
transformed itself as people who
had very little rights began to
demand rights, demand inclusion,
to demand a transformation of
our world.
So I think even today, we're
still coming to grips -- still
coming to terms with this
transformation.
>> Kimsey: Well, we're seeing a
lot of changes in the world with
the emergence of Brazil and also
the potential of India.
But then there's also what we
were talking about before we
started rolling tape on this
program, which was the African
Renaissance, kind of the
expectation that Africa is
really a continent that's about
to step out and live up to a
full potential of what it could
be.
Do you see that?
>> Zuberi: You know, I think
that -- and I work in Africa a
lot.
I was just in Africa a couple of
months ago at a round table of
African Heads of State.
And we were having a
conversation about Africa in the
future.
And it was a very interesting
conversation because -- First,
let me give you the setting of
where we're at.
We're sitting in Johannesburg.
And Johannesburg is the
financial hub, the financial
center of South Africa.
And on the African continent,
form Cairo to Cape Town --
right?
Johannesburg, or South Africa,
is the most wealthiest country
on the African continent.
And with the most robust
economy.
I mean, you know, they have this
thing called the brick countries
-- Brazil, Russia, India and
China.
Because these were the emerging
markets, which were transforming
the world.
You know, they were strong and
they were doing things that no
body had saw.
They had to add an "S".
So brick had to become bricks
because they had to add South
Africa.
Because of it's economic rebirth
after the end of the apartheid
around the world.
So it is a force within itself
economically.
Of course, they haven't solved
all the problems inside of South
Africa but South Africa has a
very robust economy.
Even today, you can hear in the
news about some people
complaining about their social
and their economic woes inside
of the country.
And there are many issues that I
think need to be solved.
However, South Africa really
represents, in this way, the new
Africa.
Because South Africa is a place
where the people have a voice.
South Africa is a place where
the people came and they
overturned the government.
South Africa is a place where
they're grappling with all of
the economic problems.
South Africa is a place where
its not that the corruption
doesn't exist but that
corruption is debated.
And corruption is on the front
table and people are demanding
that it not dictate the policies
of the country.
And I think this is spread
across the entire continent.
I mean, most of the Arab Spring
took place in North Africa.
Tunisia is North Africa.
Libya -- North Africa.
Nigeria -- North Africa.
Egypt -- North Africa.
And you know, if you add to
those places the uprisings
coming from the ground of the
people, that scatters all over
west, east and south Africa.
So I think you have a
renaissance but it is genuine
renaissance in that it is coming
from the African people as they
begin to have a bigger say in
their government.
>> Kimsey: And so amazing that
the Arab Spring started from
such a humble beginning.
I mean, in reading what
happened, it started with one
man in Tunisia who said that we
was not going to take it
anymore.
And that began the revolt there
and then it spread from country,
to country, to country,
It was almost as if you just
needed one match.
>> Zuberi: You needed one match.
And you know, once you start a
fire like that, its not going to
go out.
But I think its beautiful to
recognize that this tension
among the people for
transforming their society is
reaching fruitation.
And you know, you've got to put
it all in context.
Most of these nations only
recently became independent.
And you have within them their
first generation of people who
have civil rights in a society.
I mean, its kind of like you
could think of that those first
generations of young people, who
didn't experience segregation.
Well, maybe that's hard to
imagine since segregation still
exists all over the U.S.
But they don't Jim Crow.
And they don't have --
definitely don't have the
reflections on slavery that they
would have had 60 years ago.
So you get people who are coming
into a very different situation
who are born into that situation
and they matured in that
different space.
So they don't have colonialism
on the African continent
anymore.
And so now you have this
generation of people who want to
participate in the government
and have expectations because
they hear the great stories
about how the country is free
now.
And so they have expectations
that if they go unfulfilled,
they're ready and willing to
challenge those in power.
>> Kimsey: And does this kind of
contain some of the elements
that you're working on on your
documentary right now?
>> Zuberi: This is what my
documentary is about.
And you know, look -- So I'm a
scholar but one thing that
"History Detectives" has taught
me is that it's a fantastic idea
to try to talk to the people.
And the people want to hear you.
And you know, its good for
scholars to talk to each other.
But its better when they talk to
everybody else.
And I think I've gained a little
bit of a voice, which allows me
to talk to people.
And so I wanted to bring that
experience that I had with the
"History Detectives" to that
kind of stuff that I do in
academia, where I do work on
Africa.
And so about five years ago, I
started asking my friends who
were leaders in Africa if I
could interview them -- if I
could talk to them about the
work -- if I could talk to them
about the work that they have
done in their country, whether
it was good or bad.
Some of them are good guys.
Some of them are not so good
guys.
But I wanted to tell that story.
And so I've been working on this
project, which talks mainly
about Africa and its
relationship with the rest of
the world.
Why is Africa in the situation
it's in today and how can it get
to that place which was dreamed
of by people like Kwame Nkrumah
-- you know, W.E.B. DuBois and
today, Nelson Mandela.
How does Africa get there?
>> Kimsey: And it's a rich
subject.
You've done a lot of writing
about Liberia.
I'm fascinated with Liberia and
its history.
As a matter of fact, I think
that one of the -- We have yet
to see the great definitive
documentary on Liberia and it's
total history.
>> Zuberi: And we definitely do.
I wrote a book on the founding
of Liberia.
It was my first book.
And you know, it's a wonderful
experience because in that book,
I was testing a lot of
scientific theories.
And I was at my height of doing
scientific sociology.
And it was a real pleasure to do
that and to ask those questions.
But along the way, I just got
some real profound understanding
of some very common sense about
Africa.
You know, because the real key
about understanding what was
happening in South Africa -- to
understand what was happening in
Liberia is to put on the table
how did the American
colonization society get
created?
So the American Colonization
Society put out the word, " We
want to help Africans return to
Africa."
And in the nineteenth century,
its not an implausible idea.
It kind of even made sense,
okay?
People aren't being treated well
here.
Lets make that venue open.
But pretty quickly, the African-
American community in
Philadelphia and Boston and New
York -- They became aware of who
was backing this movement.
And it was being backed,
actually, by very large slave
owners in the south, who, you
know, had vested interests in
getting rid of the free African-
American populations, whether
they were in the south or in the
north.
And certain laws had been passed
in the south to accommodate
this.
So that was the kind of
motivation pushing people to get
there on those boats.
However, the story that unfolds
when you look at what Liberia
has become is simply
fascinating.
>> Kimsey: yeah and I know that
we could talk a lot about it.
And its been fascinating talking
to ya.
And the half hour has just gone
by.
(laughter)
>> Zuberi: My pleasure.
>> Kimsey: Thank you so much for
talking to us and we will
continue to watch you on
"History Detectives" and be
fascinated every week.
Thanks so much for being here.