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>> BOTH STATE BUDGET PROPOSALS WOULD INCREASE STATE SPENDING
BUT THE DIFFERENCES ARE IN HOW PUBLIC EDUCATION WILL BE
FUNDED. THAT IS ONE BIG ONE.
WHICH STATE EMPLOYEES WILL GET PAY RAISES.
WE'LL TAKE THAT ON TOO AND HOW THE LOTTERY SCHOLARSHIP WILL
BE MAINTAINED. JOINING US TO DELVE INTO THE
NUMBERS WE HAVE THE EDITOR OF SANTA FE REPORTER, JULIE ANN
GRIMM IS WITH US. FROM THE NEW MEXICO WATCHDOG,
LINE REGULAR ROB NIKOLEWSKI IS BACK, AND ANOTHER REGULAR
DANIEL FOLEY, FORMER MINORITY WHIP OF THE STATE HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES. LINE REGULAR ATTORNEY, SOPHIE
MARTIN HERE AS WELL. SOPHIE, ON THESE BUDGETS ARE
POTENTIALLY BIG DIFFERENCES, ABOUT 80 MILLION IN THE
OVERALL BUDGETS, BUT LET'S TAKE THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSALS
FIRST AND LET'S TALK ABOUT PAY RAISES.
SHE WANTS TO BE SELECTIVE ABOUT WHICH CATEGORIES DO GET
PAY RAISES AND MY QUESTION ON THAT IS AREN'T YOU SETTING
YOURSELF UP TO PICK FAVORITES AT THAT POINT AND DOESN'T THAT
NOT INHERENTLY HAVE A LOT OF PROBLEMS, WHEN YOU START
PICKING FAVORITES FOR PAY RAISES?
>> I THINK THAT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION, ACTUALLY.
SHE HAS IDENTIFIED ROUGHLY 32% OF STATE EMPLOYEES WHO SHE IS
TARGETING FOR PAY INCREASES AND THEY WOULD GET LARGER PAY
INCREASES THAN WE WOULD SEE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE FINANCE
COMMITTEE WHO ARE RECOMMENDING ACROSS THE BOARD INCREASES OF
A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN 1%. I THINK THAT IT OFFERS HER
SOME FLEXIBILITY FROM A MANAGERIAL PERSPECTIVE.
I CAN SEE HOW SHE WOULD WANT TO BE ABLE TO SAY, THIS IS A
HIGH PERFORMING DEPARTMENT, THIS IS A HIGH PERFORMING
INDIVIDUAL, AND I WOULD LIKE TO REWARD THAT HIGHER
PERFORMANCE. IN BUSINESS, THAT IS NOT
UNCOMMON. BUT, WE'RE COMING OUT OF A
STAGNANT, AND IN SOME CASES, WORSE THAN STAGNANT INCOME FOR
STATE EMPLOYEES. WE HAVE SEEN IMPACTS THAT HAS
HAD ON THE STATE ECONOMY WHEN WE HAVE SUCH A LARGE PART OF
OUR ECONOMY DEPENDENT ON PAYROLL FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
AND, SO, THIS MAY NOT BE THE RIGHT MOMENT TO BE THINKING
ABOUT -- I THINK SHE IS TRYING TO POSITION IT AS MERIT PAY
FOR CERTAIN EMPLOYEES. >> JULIE ANN, ONE OF THE
CATEGORIES THAT CAME OUT OF THAT WAS DISTRICT ATTORNEYS,
INTERESTED IN GETTING MORE MONEY AND THAT CATCHES MOST
FOLKS BY SURPRISE. I ASK, AGAIN, THAT WHOLE
THING, IF YOU'RE A LOWER LEVEL PAID EMPLOYEE, SAY A DA MAKES
-- I DON'T KNOW WHAT DA'S MAKE BUT MORE MONEY THAN CERTAIN
OTHER LEVEL -- I WOULD BE ANNOYED BY THAT.
IF I WAS ONE OF THE FOLKS LEFT OFF THIS GO ROUND,
THAT WOULD NOT SERVE ME WELL. >> TRY TO COMPARE THE
GOVERNOR'S PLAN AND LSD PLAN AND WHICH GROUPS OF EMPLOYEES
MAKE BOTH LISTS. THERE SOME THINGS TO BE AWARE
OF; THAT BOTH OF THEM PUT PUBLIC SAFETY ON THEIR LIST,
POLICE OFFICERS ON THEIR LIST, I THINK BOTH LISTS CONTAIN
TEACHERS, WHO I DON'T THINK ANYONE WILL ARGUE, TEACHERS
ARE MAKING TOO MUCH MONEY. WE ALL AGREE THEY ARE NOT
MAKING ENOUGH MONEY. THIS CRITICISM OF YOU HAVE GOT
THE GOVERNOR USING THE WORD TARGETED, TALK ABOUT HER
SALARIES, AND THEN THE STATEMENTS THAT CAME OUT LATER
FROM HER SPOKESMAN ENRIQUE, SAYS, WELL THE LFC APPROACH IS
UNTARGETTED. SO YOU SEE THAT WORD GETTING
THROWN AROUND AND IT IS SORT OF WHOSE BACK IS THE TARGET ON
IS WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR HERE.
>> THAT QUOTE INTERESTING YOU JUST MENTIONED ENRIQUE,
SPOKESMAN FOR THE GOVERNOR, THE COMMITTEE'S PROPOSED
BUDGET "DOLES OUT MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF UNTARGETTED
ACROSS-THE-BOARD GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE PAY RAISES WHILE
DRAMATICALLY UNDERFUNDING ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT EFFORTS."
>> IS THIS A ZERO SUM GAIN POSITION HERE?
IF ONE PERSON GETS MONEY SOMEBODY HAS TO LOSE.
WHY DOES ANYBODY HAVE TO LOSE WHEN POSITIONING FOR A STATE
BUDGET LIKE THIS? >> THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION,
GENE, AND NOT TO BE CAVALIER, IT IS MY ANSWER EVERY TIME WE
TALK ABOUT THIS. WE DON'T HAVE AN INFINITE
AMOUNT OF MONEY, SO YOU HAVE GOT TO MAKE PRIORITIES.
I DO COMPLIMENT THE GOVERNOR FROM THE EXTENT I THINK OUR
EXEMPT STATE EMPLOYEE SYSTEM IS BROKEN.
THE WAY PEOPLE ARE GETTING IN THESE JOBS AND HOW THEY DO IT
AND HOW MANY AND WHEN THEY PUT THEM IN AND I THINK THERE
NEEDS TO BE A LOOK AT HOW WE DO ALL THE STATE EMPLOYEES.
WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS LATER ON IN
THE SHOW, I THINK, THOUGH, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE DA'S, FOR
INSTANCE. IF YOU'RE A DISTRICT ATTORNEY
MAKING $75,000 A YEAR, WITH THREE YEARS EXPERIENCE YOU'RE
MAKING 76,000, WITH THREE YEARS EXPERIENCE YOU CAN GO TO
A LAW FIRM AND MAKE 100 GRAND, 90 GRAND OR 80. I THINK THE
GOVERNOR IS SAYING WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW IN SOME
STRATEGIC POSITIONS LIKE CYFD WITH CASE MANAGERS, THAT WE
DON'T HAVE TO REVOLVING DOOR, THAT, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THE
WORKLOAD IS SO HIGH, THE STRESS IS SO HIGH THAT YOU'RE
MAKING HALF TO A QUARTER OF WHAT YOU COULD MAKE IN THE
PRIVATE SECTOR AND REALLY THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS BECOMING A
TRAINING GROUND FOR THE PRIVATE SECTOR, SAYING, I WANT
TO TARGET THAT WE RETAIN GOOD EMPLOYEES IN THESE STRATEGIC
AREAS. I WOULD SUBMIT TO YOU, THOUGH, THAT A RANK AND FILE
EMPLOYEES, SURE, BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I AM WOULD BE MORE
INSULTED THAT I THINK -- IF I AM MAKING $25,000 A YEAR, AND
YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE ME $250 AS A PAY RAISE THIS YEAR, I
MEAN, I JUST -- I THINK WE HAVE GOT TO FIGURE OUT A WAY
TO TARGET THE STUFF AND GO AFTER THE RIGHT JOBS AND
RETAIN THOSE PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO.
>> I HEAR THAT, BUT ISN'T ON THE POLITICAL SIDE OF THINGS
ISN'T IT BETTER FOR THE GOVERNOR TO GIVE EVERYBODY A
RAISE; JUST PLAIN BETTER POLITICS THAT EVERYBODY GETS A
RAISE? >> I GUESS SO, BUT LIKE DAN
SAYS, IF YOU'RE TALKING 1.5%, THAT IS NOT A HECK OF A WHOLE
LOT OF MONEY. >> IT IS SYMBOLISM, $250 IS
BETTER THAN ZERO. >> I SEE YOUR POINT.
IF YOU GIVE EVERYONE A RAISE ACROSS THE BOARD, YOU DON'T
HAVE TO MAKE THE TOUGH DECISIONS, IF YOU WANT TO CALL
1.5 A TOUGH DECISION. BUT, THEN, ON THE OTHER HAND,
IF YOU DO HAVE SOME TARGETED RATHER THAN THIS KIND OF
PIECEMEAL ARRANGEMENT, THAT MIGHT WORK OUT BETTER.
I MEAN, TO ME, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT COMPOUNDING ERROR, A LOT
OF THIS. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT EDUCATION,
WHERE THE GOVERNOR IS COMING FROM VERSUS LFC PROPOSAL.
GOVERNOR WANTS -- WE HAVE A BASIC PROBLEM HERE, THERE IS
MONEY ON THE TABLE AND THAT IS INTERESTING, WE HAVE SOME GOOD
MONEY ON THE TABLE FOR EDUCATION NEEDS.
LOCAL CONTROL VERSUS PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT SEEMS TO
BE THE CRUX OF THE MATTER. >> THIS DOESN'T SURPRISE ME AT
ALL, BECAUSE, THE GOVERNOR IS BIG INTO EDUCATIONAL REFORM.
WE'RE 49TH AND 50TH AND BOTH SIDES USE THAT STATISTIC.
49TH AND 50TH, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.
WE'RE 49TH AND 50TH GOT TO GET RID OF WHAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT
NOW. THAT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME, BUT,
THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE GOVERNOR WHO SOUGHT THESE
REFORM EFFORTS SHE WANTS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THESE ABOVE THE
LINE, BELOW THE LINE WORK TO HER ADVANTAGE WHERE SHE CAN
SAY, I WANT TO DO THIS, KIND OF LIKE THE TARGETED RAISES.
>> I AM GOING TO PICK UP ON THAT POINT EXACTLY,
ABOUT MERIT PAY. SOMETHING STRIKES ME ABOUT
MERIT PAY, I DON'T KNOW HOW ONE MAKES A MERIT ASSESSMENT
FROM A DISTANCE, MEANING, IS IT REALLY ABOUT CLASSROOM
OBSERVATION, ALL THOSE OTHER UNTANGIBLE THINGS THAT MERITS
ONE TO GET EXTRA PAY, NOT JUST NUMBERS THAT ARE RELATED TO
THE MAILBOX -- >> IN SOME WAYS YOU
ARTICULATED THE CRUX OF THE DEBATE OVER TESTING AND THE
WAY TESTING IS USED TO EVALUATE TEACHERS AND SCHOOLS.
WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO EVALUATE A LARGE NUMBER OF
SCHOOLS FROM A DISTANCE, WHICH IS SOMETHING TO A CERTAIN
EXTENT THE STATE HAS TO DO, AND YOU'RE TRYING TO NORMALIZE
ACROSS ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT SCHOOLS, A LOT OF THAT FINE
OBSERVATION YOU'RE DESCRIBING IS LOST, SO THE TEACHERS, I
THINK, MAKE A GOOD POINT AND SCHOOLS MAKE A GOOD POINT,
OBSERVATION IS KEY TO DETERMINING WHETHER THIS IS A
GOOD EDUCATIONAL ENVIRONMENT; WHETHER THIS CLASSROOM IS
EFFECTIVE OR THIS TEACHER IS EFFECTIVE AND YOU CAN HAVE
HIGHLY EFFECTIVE TEACHERS WORKING IN ENVIRONMENTS IN
WHICH YOU'RE GOING TO SEE INCREDIBLE RESULTS THAT ARE
NOT REALLY TESTABLE. AND SO, FINDING A WAY TO
REWARD THOSE TEACHERS, WHO ARE DOING WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO,
THAT MAY BE DIFFICULT. >> JULIE ANN, PICK UP ON THAT
AS WELL. AGAIN, FOR TEACHERS, GOING
INTO THE SESSION, WE HAVE SEEN TOUGH QUOTES ALREADY FROM THE
TEACHERS UNION ALREADY. IT JUST SEEMS SO FAR AWAY THE
DIFFERENCE BUT SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET A RAISE IT SEEMS
FOR TEACHERS. THAT HELPS A LITTLE BIT.
>> I THINK THE OTHER BIG ISSUE THERE IS THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT
WHETHER IT IS A FUNDING FORMULA THAT THE MONEY SHOULD
GO INTO OR WHETHER IT IS SOME SORT OF SPECIAL DEAL FOR LET'S
USE THE WORD TARGETED AGAIN, FOR TARGETED INITIATIVES WE
WANT. YOU HAD MIMI STEWART, HEAD OF
HOUSE EDUCATION COMMITTEE, TALKING ABOUT THAT THE
GOVERNOR'S PROPOSAL SHE SEES AS DIS-EQUALIZING FROM WHERE
SHE IS, TAKING THE AUTHORITY AWAY FROM THE FUNDING FORMULA
THAT EVERYONE AGREED ON AND PUTTING IT IN THE HANDS OF A
MORE SUBJECTIVE MATRIX, MAYBE. BUT, WE HAVE ALSO HEARD A LOT
OF SCHOOLS, SANTA FE PUBLIC SCHOOLS AMONG THEM, REALLY
CRITICIZE THE WAY THE FUNDING FORMULA SHAKES OUT.
SO MAYBE LOOKING AT THE FUNDING FORMULA IS ANOTHER WAY
INTO THIS DEBATE. >> ONE MINUTE.
NO ONE CAN COMPLAIN ADMINISTRATION WANTS TO HAVE A
LITTLE CONTROL, THAT IS HOW IT WORKS, BUT LOCAL CONTROL, I AM
INTERESTED IN. THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF TRUST
IT SEEMS TO ME IN THE EDUCATION BUSINESS.
IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS, YOU HAVE TO TRUST LOCAL
PEOPLE. >> I THINK THAT WE'RE SETTING
UP THIS CONVERSATION BASED ON A FALLACY AND THAT IS, YOU
HAVE GOT TO REMEMBER THE EDUCATION BUDGET, 4% IS BELOW
THE LINE; 4%. THE OTHER 96% IS ABOVE THE
LINE. THAT IS TIED TO THE FUNDING
FORMULAS AND ALL OF THAT STUFF, SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
4% OF THE MONEY THAT THE GOVERNOR IS SAYING WE WANT TO
PUT IT TO ACCOUNTABILITY. >> THAT'S NO SMALL NUMBER.
>> BUT IT IS 4%, BUT, SHE IS SAYING, LOOK, I WANT TO WORK
MORE WITH THINGS LIKE NEW MEXICO READS TO LEAD, WHERE
SHE WAS ABLE TO SAY WE HAVE SEEN THIS GROWTH IN K TO THIRD
GRADE READING AND WE HAVE SEEN THIS PROGRAM SUCCEED VERSUS
THROWING INTO THE FORMULA WHERE, REMEMBER, A FEW YEARS
AGO THE SCHOOL BOARDS SUED THE LEGISLATURE AND SAID WE HAVE
LOCAL CONTROL, SO NOW YOU GIVE THEM A BUDGET AND THEY CAN DO
WITH IT AS THEY PLEASE, RIGHT WRONG OR INDIFFERENT, YOU CAN
ARGUE THE MERITS OF THAT LATER BUT THERE IS A REAL QUESTION
ABOUT, AND IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP, THE FUNDING
PROGRAM THAT NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT, THERE IS A PROBLEM
WITH THE FUNDING FORMULA, IT ISN'T WORKING AND IT IS BEING
SOLVED BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE FAILS TO ADDRESS IT, BEING
SOLVED IN THE COURTS, INDIVIDUAL SCHOOLS ARE TAKING
THEM TO COURT AND CHANGES ARE BEING MADE TO THE FUNDING
FORMULA BASED ON JUDICIAL ACTION, WHICH I THINK IS A BAD
PLACE TO SET POLICY. >> IT IS AN END AROUND IS HOW
IT IS DESCRIBED. >> THERE YOU GO.
IN A MOMENT WE'RE BACK WITH INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST ERIC
SCHLOSSER TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK "AMERICA'S NUCLEAR
ARSENAL."