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Warren: Warren MacDonald here again with the Solution Revolution. This time super excited
to have, he is coming in from I believe Montreal, Julien Smith. Welcome Julien.
Julien: (Laughing) Thanks for having me.
Warren: Yeah, we like to keep the intros nice and short. If I can give my quick intro on
who Julien Smith is and then you feel free to jump in. I first became aware of you as
the author of the New York Times bestselling "Trust Agents" with Chris Brogan, another
guy I have been aware of for a while. Then I believe the latest book "The Flinch", has
gone New York Times bestseller also. Is that true?
Julien: It's definitely sold a lot of copies and it is a bestseller, but it's not on the
New York Times bestseller list. I still have that accolade so I'm okay with it.
Warren: Yeah, exactly. You roll with it from the last one. Who needs it for every one?
Did I just say that? Maybe we do need it for everyone. One of the things that jumped out
and one of the main reasons I wanted to chat with you for the project here, is that I have
been on this path where I've been all about growth. I was put into this position and it's
like what can I do with it. Where's the ceiling? How can I keep blowing through that ceiling?
Kind of like when we talk about thinking outside of the box. I'm personally working towards
that place of, what box. Let's blow the box apart.
Julien: Right.
Warren: I figure you're on that track. I want to start out with, what put you on that track
for this constant quest to be better?
Julien: (Laughter) Maybe it's that I feel that I'm a piece of garbage. It's an over
compensation. No, what it is is that I feel that, I explained this to my girlfriend just
the a while ago, it's that I feel that I have no faith in my future self. So what I do is
a constant building up and building resilience for the time when I have to make a decision
I am incapable of doing. Just over and over again. That applies to all kinds of things
like meditation. It applies to dealing with "The Flinch" on a social level, in terms of
work and stuff like that. All of it has to do with a hardening of character that is largely
lacking in our society. I definitely may be one of the weakest people I now, but I continue
to write about it; a constant process of improvement which has more to do with being able to handle
whatever comes at you no matter whatever happens. Adaptability is a big part of it too. Stuff
like that.
Warren: Yeah, interesting. So the rest of us are basically in a state of delusion about
where we're at and what we're capable of and aren't forced to look at this. Maybe that's
where we're at.
Julien: The way that I started with it is that I feel that I am sincerely very optimistic
about all people. What I largely feel is, yes we are a body and a mind, but largely
the shell in which we are is a very imperfect shell that we have to deal with for entire
time we have on this planet or what have you. It has to do with overcompensating for the
weaknesses. This has a lot to do with evolutionary psychology and largely the decisions we make
are based on the short term. Our brain wants short term results, and our body wants short
term results because it wants us to reproduce as fast as possible, for example. It wants
us to take care of our own kin. It wants all these things that will basically help our
genes reproduce. Our mind wants different things than that. So we need to adjust and
almost work against our instincts in order to do well in a modern society.
Warren: Right and our mind is constantly under attack from outside interests as well.
Julien: Right, exactly.
Warren: Yeah. Just looking over, I noticed that you put out a list of 200 books recently
that you've read. The first thing that struck me is that we've read a whole bunch of the
same books.
Julien: That's a problem. That's a big problem, dude. (Laughing)
Warren: It's a problem, but one of things that brought up that question for me is, why
am I constantly reading? Is it about the learning or is about being challenged?
Julien: It's a good question. To me, I'm looking at it and there's this guy, Ryan Holiday,
who is actually a pretty decent blogger who writes about the same stuff you and I talk
about. His big thing is always reading books above your level. So if you and I, have read
them same books, Warren, then we have a sincere problem. If the readers and many of the people
that are watching this here are having the same experience, then we're all getting the
same input. If we are all getting the same input, we are going to end up being the same
people, which is a huge, huge problem. Actually, I have been noticing that a lot and people
talk to us. "I don't know if you read this or not." "Of course I read this. Of course
I read this." In order for you to have a unique output, you have to have a unique input. Now
I am getting to a point that I am looking at all these book and there a bunch of social
media and marketing, just garbage. So you need to be able to get something new. That's
what I am working on now, working on totally different kinds of books than I would normally
have.
Warren: Yeah. Which kind of ties into, I love the name of the blog by the way, "In Over
Your Head". It's that quest to be riding that line of not being in over your head and not
being too comfortable, which is interesting. It's something I've been pushing for a long
time. People often ask me, "How do I grow and move to place where I can achieve these
goals?" The first thing you better do is get really good at being uncomfortable.
Julien: Right. You need that constant process. My rationalization for it is this and we discuss
it in "The Flinch" actually, which we will discuss shortly. The rationalization for it
is as follows: Our brain has been built and our brain has evolved to get to a point where
it's meant to adapt to get to a non-changing environment. So 100,000 years ago, whether
you're in a Savannah or jungle or elsewhere, you basically work with a limited environment
that is ever changing. You grow to the age of ten or fifteen or something and then you're
like, "I know everything I need to know about this environment and it's never going to change.
"It's always going to be the same. I know that also that they say things in biology
that our eyes are this way and not this way, because most predators move side-to-side.
We can look down in order to see predators, but it is very rare that we will look up.
We actually are not very good at looking up and down; we are better at looking across.
Our whole bodies and brains are evolved to function and help us survive and reproduce
in a certain environment. That environment is not the environment we are currently in
at all. So we are deeply inadequate for what we have built around us, this machine that
we have built around us. The people that become the most effective are those that have adapted
to the current environment. How do you do that? You can't do that by changing your body
literally because your body is limited to being that species that is. You have to change
the only thing that you have limited control over and that is your head. That's what this
process is all about, trying to figure out what the best mind is for the time that we
live in so that we can have the best possible life or something.
Warren: Yeah. The best possible experience and hopefully move us all forward. A friend
of mine who I also interviewed for the Solution Revolution, a guy names Shawn Stevenson. I
think it was him. I read something that he wrote yesterday. It was, "I am responsible
for the future of humanity and so are you." I love that because the reason that I called
this the Solution Revolution is partly that the solution is within all of us. We all look
externally, hence the reading 200 books. On some level, we all know what we need to do.
The revolution part is that if all of us took on this work, we would change the world overnight.
I believe we would live in an entirely different place.
Julien: It's funny, because I usually do a lot of talk shows about "Social Network".
It was my first book, the one you talked about. It was co-written with Chris Brogan and we
actually have an upcoming book that should be out in the fall. Those books have to do
with media and the transforming media landscape. It's really interesting. I end up doing talks
about social networks and one of the things you end up realizing is that Twitter is like
being psychic. It's like having access to just a ridiculous database of information.
We have access to more information that we've ever had. We are doing so little with it,
except for the few that are. We do so little with it that it's kind of pathetic. There
needs to be a kind of transformation. If you were reborn into this space and you were born
and look at it now, like you came from a time machine or something, it would be like, "This
is great, I can do what? I can do huh?" You would just lose your mind over how to take
advantage of the environment that you live in. The reality of it is because it has come
upon you slowly, just like you age slowly. You still think you look great, but actually
you've got a huge beer gut or whatever. It's happened slowly so you don't notice. The same
thing happened to us. We've got a big problem taking advantage of the things we have access
to. We have access to all kinds of information. All the information is there. Anything you
want to do, you can do, as long as you can navigate the maze that is inside your brain.
Warren: Yeah, it's all there and yeah, what are we doing with it? You're right, we are
not fully taking advantage. So how do we push people? Is a big part of what drives you -- there
is this personal quest to be better and all the rest of it. I've got to admit, a big part
of what drives me is that I want people to get their *** together. It's interesting,
we were talking about this on a panel the other day and it was supposed to be all super
positive. Then I blurted out how embarrassing it is to be a human being in 2012, when we
still have so many of the problems that we have. Is part of what drives you is that rallying
people? I know we want to learn for ourselves, but it's like, "Come on, let's all get going
here and see where we can go." Is that something fair to say? Is that what drives you?
Julien: Well maybe, but everyone has their own personal kind of 12-step quest or what
have you to take part in. You can't really sell that for people. I will tell you for
me, when I figure it out I won't write about it anymore, because it won't be fascinating
to me. It won't be compelling to me anymore. Hopefully I've gotten to a point where I have
discussed aspects of this enough times that I kind of figured it out. I finally figured
out what I am supposed to be doing. I also have a sincere repulsion for qi's and this
whole *** bi ya *** that people talk about. I am a deeply cynical person, almost
like a reductionist in some ways. I have a big problem with the way that people deal
with these things, in a large sense. So I try to give people a different stance on it
where even if you don't like, again this is with "The Flinch", people rationalizing and
talking saying it's not a self-help book. It isn't, because I could never handle writing
that kind of thing. It's a stance, looking at it and saying, "This is the best information
I have access to in order to solve this problem." I think eventually we have to get to a point
where we stop talking about solving the internal problem and writing a map for the maze. Eventually
we have to actually have to do things in the outside world. Not everyone can be, "We're
going to help each other and love and let's all have beautiful internet-based businesses
that allow us to have freedom." We need to actually change the world. I think that people
are at a point where they are too selfish to do that. So we need to really start moving
and get that working as well. I think it is even a harder quest that is coming in the
future somewhere.
Warren: Yeah, getting more caught up I the doing than the...?
Julien: Right. We are getting caught up right now in the talking and the teaching, which
is what the internet is about. It's fine, you can spread information, but all the information
is already out there. All the great questions of mankind have been answered by Marcus Aurelius
and Socrates and Buddha and so on. Why are we reiterating this for a modern audience
if they are actually already solved? I'm doing the same thing. I'm asking a question. I don't
have the answer to that. We have modern problems that have not yet been solved, why aren't
we working on those? Good question, right?
Warren: Yeah. I think we need, as humans, I think we need constant reminding. I think
part of the trap we fall into is getting too comfortable. We need those imprints coming
at us from lots of different angles.
Julien: To turn you back to the state of where you want to be or what have you.
Warren: Well, yeah. It's all about challenging us to be better. It's interesting, if I was
able to read some of the feedback that you've had from "The Flinch" because when I read
it, I read the premise and then I got into the book. I thought this was going to push
some people's buttons. I know it pushed some of mine, especially around the interaction
with people. I didn't really have a problem going and taking the cold shower.
Julien: No it's fine.
Warren: I got a big kick out of it because I actually used to go and do this. I used
to do this all the time. I think we forget that when you doing something like that all
the time, it gives you that jolt. It's that feeling of being alive. There's no ducking
and weaving and easing into the day.
Julien: You're right, but the brain will just mold itself, it's highly plastic, it will
just mold itself into whatever environment you decide to put yourself in. So if you have
the discomfort of being around physical things, like taking a cold shower, a week of that
will train it out of you. If you stop taking it, it will come right back. It's the same
thing with the social encounters. I just love this idea of exercises and homework assignments
for people. I'm going to build a big, I don't want to say course, because it won't cost
money. It will be free. I hate to charge people for ***. It will be like homework assignments
every week, go out and do this. I naturally do these things for myself. I love big challenges.
I have a feeling there is a large audience that would get something out of that too.
It will be really interesting.
Warren: I will have to look forward to seeing that. If you had some kind of process, because
you obviously think about this a lot, I get a lot of people who will say, "This is what
I'm trying to do and I feel stuck. What do I need to do?" I'm like, "Well, what do you
need to do?" I could take you through and I have three steps by the way. I talk a lot
about acceptance, responsibility, and then connection. If you can't accept where you're
at then you've got no hope of moving forward. If you can't take responsibility for the journey,
then you've got no hope. If you don't have a connection or connected a purpose, then
you have nothing to pull you forward. Do you have something similar? Do you have a first
step that you have to use?
Julien: When somebody says, "Oh, I need help with this," or what have you?
Warren: Yes.
Julien: I don't know that I have a specific step like that. In fact, in my daily life
I do talks like you do. It's the same thing. What I always try to do is create an emotional
resonance before trying to create any informational thing. Again, there are books everywhere that
will be: First the A, and then the B, and then C. You open the cover and "First things
first" and whatever the other seven habits are. It will give you a kind of mechanism.
To me it is actually about creating an emotion and then that emotion will lead to some kind
of change. We talked about this, there is information everywhere. You don't need more
information. The system doesn't actually matter either, as long as it works for you. To me
it is just create the emotion as powerfully as possible so that there will be, I don't
know if it's a transformative effect. It will be this punch in the face realization. It
will be like, "Oh wow, I need to think about this now." It never happens with actual information.
It happens with emotion. So that's always the connection that I try to make. When you
get questions like that, like when you get them, you can do that. I cannot create an
emotional connection immediately when talking to people. What I do is that instead I have
them try to work it through a mechanism that they can work it out for themselves. To me
the idea of a challenge is fundamental; if you work on taking on challenges, then when
you come across unexpected challenges, and to deal with them well. If you're unable to
take on any specific challenge even that I could give you, then you are probably unprepared
to take on many of the other challenges that may come your way as well. It's more of a
stance. Maybe it's like a mental Jujitsu or something, where the stance allows for the
ultimate ability to react; like Aikido is the art of the spear, the art of the taking
energy that comes at you and returning it. So the same thing happens with your brain,
if you're capable of handling it and capable of returning it effectively, then you're doing
okay.
Warren: Yeah. You just reminded me of something. We're talking about resilience in a lot of
ways. You made a quote, I'm just looking at it over here, that, "Between stimulus and
response, there's a space and in that space lays growth and freedom," and how that inspired
you for "The Flinch". When I read that, what I'm reading is that stimulus is one thing,
response is another. Stimulus can be way over here, but response can be automatic. The space
is where we get to choose. I think that when we're living a life that's too comfortable
and not focused on resiliency. It's where we're always choosing the easy way out. It's
where we set ourselves up for failure. That's what I'm trying to teach people to avoid.
I get the sense that that's what you went after in "The Flinch".
Julien: Yeah, I think we're aligned on that. That comes from Victor Frankel, from "Man's
Search for Meaning". He was in a concentration camp where he would watch when someone's brain
was no longer interested in carrying forward. He would say, immediately afterwards, the
body would disintegrate forward. If the brain is able to continue, them the body will continue
alongside it. If the brain is unwilling to continue, then at that point, the body will
disintegrate like that. That is what he saw over and over and over again. He was in Auschwitz
and Berkanoh and another one as well. That's his experience and we never get to live through
that, thank god, but the same principle applies.
Warren: Yeah, exactly. We can do the work to cope with the mini crises that come our
way. I'm becoming fonder of saying, "If a crisis doesn't exist, then you better create
one." Just because it's part of building resilience and getting us all ready.
Julien: I see what you mean.
Warren: Well, there's the alarm. I tell you what, on that note I want to thank you for
joining me and us here this morning. I want to encourage people go out and not to just
read "The Flinch", but take on as much of it as you can. I read it on a plane, and there
is only so much you can do. I made sure that I took that cold shower the next chance I
got. It's a good reminder for me to always be taking myself into that uncomfortable space
where we'll get to learn and grow. So thanks for sharing that with us. I'm looking forward
to what you're coming up with next.
Julien: Yeah, yeah. When I have that answer, I'll let you know.
Warren: Cool. (Laughter)
Julien: There's always more going on. If you go to the blog, which is inoveryourhead.net,
you can follow the thought process which will ultimately lead to the big thing, but that
is a long time coming. "The Flinch" took probably two years in terms of the thinking and the
making. The same process has to happen again. That's how it's working right now.
Warren: Exactly. If we knew exactly where that was by looking at it now, it wouldn't
be any fun and there'd be no challenge in it; unexpected for you as well as for us.
Julien: Right.
Warren: Well, cool. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us this morning and looking
forward to staying connected and seeing where you go next.
Julien: Yeah, my pleasure. It was a lot of fun. Sure.
Warren: All right, thank you Julien Smith.