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[MUSIC]
Okay, hi everybody.
And thank you for coming today.
It's my pleasure to invite here today Aaron Stanton,
Marialice Kern who are coming from the VR Institute of Health
and Exercise and also from the San Francisco State University.
I think they have a very interesting background.
Aaron worked on classifying ebooks in an automatic way.
Their tool was widely used globally and
later was acquired by Apple.
And he is now focusing on a different type of content.
He is looking at VR and how can we classify VR.
He found out, and Marialice joined in that effort that
virtual reality can be a sort of a gym.
Some of the activities that we perform there are very
exercise-like.
And in particular, they were looking at these Audiosheld
game, in which people have been playing for over 700,000 hours.
So they have developed this tool to explore in
a more methodological way how many calories are you actually
burning in VR.
I think this talk also gains a bit more of attention
these days.
We are seeing how content in VR, it's hard to classify.
And I think it's interesting, this effort.
So I am happy to have them here.
Thank you for coming.
>> Thank you.
Thank you very much.
So, I'm gonna start in a second by introducing Dr.
Kern as well because we actually built into our presentation,
our introductions and so I'll go that direction as well.
But, I'm gonna start by saying I'm not a very good
presenter, but
I like to think I'm a relatively decent conversationalist.
So I would appreciate it actually if you guys have
questions, feel free to interject and ask.
And if you guys don't mind, can I ask you to move forward so
that we're all close enough that we can be more conversationalist
like.
It will help my nerves.
Only work on the laptops.
That's fine.
But this is actually something that's, a lot of what
this conversation's gonna be about is social norms.
And things like where you sit in the room and
how that interacts social with, how that affects social
interactions is fascinating to me.
So I think it's very fascinating that nobody is natural for
a row except for us.
[LAUGH] So my name is Aaron Stanton and Dr.
Kern if you like to talk about your background at all or
do you feel the introduction was.
>> I'm fine with that.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> And if you want to know
specifics, I'd be more than happy to tell you.
I just, you know Department chair of Thesiology at
San Fransisco State.
And professor in the area of Exercise Physiology.
That's my specialization >> And
then my background, as already was covered really pretty well,
is my career hasn't been largely focused on the intersection
between storytelling and technology.
So I was a video game writer and
editor at the New York Times company for several years.
And then with Book Lamp which was the company that was being
talked about earlier.
It was applying machine learning of big data to extraction of
meta information for the full text of book via computers.
And then now, VR is another form of intersection
between storytelling and technology.
So that's where I approach this from but possibly my biggest
qualification for the conversation today, is that I do
something that most people don't do right at the moment, but
I think will change overtime.
Which is I get up on a regular basis and
I exercise in the morning in Virtual Reality.
So that's part of what we're here to talk about.
We both work with the Virtual Reality Institute of Health and
Exercise, which exists to create rating systems for Video games,
VR games, based upon the amount of calorie or
energy burn that you expect during a typical play.
But we're talking about it from two different angles.
One is, why this needs to exist?
Why are we doing this?
And another one that is kinda what we're doing.
What are we finding in the data?
So, about a month ago, we launched this website
which is intended to publish these ratings.
So, if you are familiar with the ESRB ratings, like E is for
everyone or like movie Ratings, like R rated movies.
The VR exercise ratings are designed to be somewhat similar,
at least based on a similar concept, except we're looking at
the content of, to figure out if it's appropriate by age.
We're looking at it by saying, in the average minute of
typical play, how many calories can you expect to burn?
One of the issues that we've run into a lot of times is
people don't have a very good mile markers, or milestones, for
figuring out where exactly they are in the exercise spectrum.
Especially in VR, which as you'll learn,
we're finding people don't report that they're
aware of the amount of exercise they're actually getting.
And so afterwards when you ask them how much they think they
did, they're not very accurate.
And so what we're trying to do, and the whole purpose
of the rating system is to take virtual exercise and
equate it to real world known forms of exercise.
So when Dr.
Kern talks a little more about how we're actually going through
in calculating the energy consumption of novel exercises.
She'll talk more about that in detail.
But in general, if in the lab we see somebody exerting effort
that is equivalent of being on an elliptical then we
rate that game as an elliptical equivalent.
The majority of games,
certainly the majority of traditional games and
the majority of seated VR, still qualify in the resting category.
Right, this can be fun, it can be engaging,
it can be social, but not a lot of movement.
On the end of the spectrum, especially over games that
are designed for room scale of VR, what we can find is there's
actually quite a bit of movement, or can be.
Unofficially, I estimate that roughly 30% of room scale games
are equipped to elliptical equivalent or better.
I can't say that definitively because we haven't rated
all of them yet.
But just judging from the types of games that tend to score in
that range and the kind of games that are coming out and
what we think.
And the highest rated game in our system,
a boxing game called Thrill of the Fight, actually not only
scores higher in the metabolic score than traditional boxing...
But actually our competitive is equivalent to
sprinting which is one of the higher exercise
difficulties that we measure, so.
But why do we measure this, is what I wanna start with, right.
Why does the VR health institute need to exist at all?
And why is this relevant?
Are you raising your hand? Cool.
Sweet.
Go ahead. >> [LAUGH]
>> So if in a horror game,
your heart is racing, there's a flight or fight response,
is that burning calories significantly?
>> Dr. Kern, do you wanna answer?
>> Could you repeat the question so-
>> Yeah, the question was,
if you're playing a horror game, and
your heart rate is accelerated because you're scared,
is that also burning calories?
>> That's a good question and
that was one of the things that actually, I think,
brought Aaron to the lab to try and get this.
You can see that's just an adrenaline kind of surge,
your oxygen consumption is gonna go up, but
it's not the same as if you were out running around the track.
So we actually are measuring
how much oxygen you can consume during that kind of an activity.
So we could disassociate the heart rate from
an adrenaline response from actual oxygen
consumption associated with metabolic data.
>> So if it it's sitting game but it's a horror game,
your heart isn't racing,
would you still rate that as a resting [INAUDIBLE]?
>> No, it's still gonna be a little more.
You're still breathing heavy and doing things.
But it's not gonna be equated to probably what your heart rate is
if you were out running at that heart rate because you have all
those muscles moving.
>> Yeah. >> So,
what we measure is actually the effect of that muscle
contraction.
And consuming the oxygen associated with that.
>> Are you also gonna talk a little bit about how you
quantified all that?
>> We're gonna do it.
>> Okay, cool.
>> [LAUGH] >> [INAUDIBLE] And
it makes me so happy that you asked about that because
it means we planned the right thing.
[LAUGH] Yeah, to kind of reiterate that slightly, so
the heart rate is, and correct me if I'm wrong,
my background is in psychology actually,
in industrial organizational psychology.
I'm not the expert in the physiology side of things.
But heart rate is a fairly good indirect measure in the right
circumstances.
But the things that affect heart rate are not just calorie burn.
So we can say this, when we have rated these games,
if there's a game that's rated high, as a high calorie burner,
or high consumer of energy,
then that is independent of the emotional state.
That's purely driven off of what you're actually consuming.
But yeah, it is possible to be playing a game that's very
exciting and engaging and not be moving around much and
have it kind of be a false predictor.
So before we get to that, which I'm excited to get to as well,
but I wanted to talk a little bit why we do this.
And why the considerations that we're trying to address with
the VR Health Institute are things that make a technology
option successful or not successful sometimes.
And when companies like Microsoft have a mission.
So my background, like I said,
is in Industrial Organizational Psychology.
It's what I studied in university, and
for a long time, I've been very fascinated with how social norms
impact the adoption curve of technology.
And so, one of my favorite examples of this is very small,
but it's very directly observed so I like it, which is so
I was working at Apple when the Apple Watch was introduced.
And Apple's very much a company that eats its own dog food, and
so the people I worked with we all didn't have Apple Watches.
And if you think about what one of the roles the Apple Watch is
for is it helps you kind of a discreet way of receiving
messages and kinda be aware of what's going on around you.
Without actually getting your phone out and
disrupting the person you're talking to.
The problem with this is that we already have
social cues in our society for this, right?
If you do a search for impatient on any search engine,
you very quickly find out what that cue is.
So if you take ten people in a room,
give then watches when they haven't had watches,
then attach a device to it that pings them as a message device
every five times an hour, what you have is an entire room that
feels very impatient, very rushed.
And so, in some respects, I actually honestly believe for
the first month after the Apple Watch came out,
our meetings got shorter.
[LAUGH] Because everybody was doing this all the time,
and it's a signal that we do for impatience, right?
VR has a sort of kinda impact as well.
This is another one that I thought was interesting.
So a few months ago, I was flying out here.
And historically, my background is in more of the higher end VR
units, like the Oculus Rift or the HTC Vive.
And I was not very experienced with the mobile component of
things.
So, I wanted to change this and so I went down to the store and
I bought a Galaxy 8 and I bought a Daydream.
And I decided that I was going to watch a movie in
a virtual movie theater on the flight I had,
which happened to be coming out here to Seattle.
And so I did this and
two things happened that I thought were very amusing.
One was that when I actually got to the point sitting in
the seat at the window with two people sitting next to me.
When I actually got to the point where I had to get this thing
out and put it on my face, I felt so uncomfortable.
And I remember turning to the person and
saying something like, I wanna apologize.
I've got this new cool thing, I'm gonna try it out here.
But it's gonna be a little weird.
I'm not trying to be antisocial, [LAUGH]
and the amount of pressure I
felt socially to not do that was very interesting.
The second thing is I was curious to see how the flight
attendants treated me, right?
So the flight attendants are trained when a passenger is
distracted with different levels of interaction.
So if I'm watching a movie with headsets on and
they come by with the food service,
they'll get your attention.
But if you're asleep, they let you sleep, right?
And I was curious which social norm would kinda be triggered
with somebody with a thing strapped on their face,
totally disconnect, clearly awake.
But totally disconnected from the surrounding environment.
And it turns out, if you're using VR on the plane, you do
not get food and you do not get drink, so just so you know.
If you're curious about, and I'm gonna play this video here in
a second probably cuz it's interesting, but
also it illustrates a point.
If you want to experience the level of discomfort that
I was experiencing on the plane,
good news is you don't have to do it yourself.
I have actually experienced this exact feeling before.
And it was back in college after learning about the elevator
studies and I went and tried it.
And the elevator studies back in the 60s were about group
conformity.
And the way you do it, if you wanna feel this,
is you to go to an elevator, you go in, and you face backwards.
So face the back wall and then don't move,
no matter who gets on, right?
And after about 30 seconds,
by the time the second person gets on, you will feel really,
really weird.
So let me show you a video they did of this back in the day,
which I though was- >> The gentlemen in
the elevator now is a candid star.
These folks who are entering, the man with a white shirt,
the lady with a trench coat, and
subsequently one other member of our staff, will face the rear.
And you'll see how this man in the trench coat.
>> [LAUGH] >> Tries
to maintain his individuality.
>> [LAUGH] >> But little by little.
>> [LAUGH] >> He
looks at his watch, but he's really making an excuse for
turning just a little bit more to the wall.
Now we'll try it once again.
Here's the candid subject.
Here comes the candid camera staff, three of them at least.
And this man has apparently been in groups before.
>> [LAUGH]
>> Now here's a fellow
with his hat on in
the elevator.
First, he makes a full turn to the rear, and
Charlie closes the door.
A moment later, we'll open the door.
Everybody's changed positions.
>> [LAUGH]
[APPLAUSE]
[LAUGH]
>> Now we'll see if we can use-
>> [LAUGH]
>> Now we'll see if we can
use group pressure for some good.
Now, in a moment, on Charlie's signal everybody turns forward.
>> [LAUGH] >> Notice they take off their
hats.
>> [LAUGH] >> And
now do you think we could reverse the procedure, watch?
>> [LAUGH] >> I feel so
terrible for those people.
[LAUGH] >> [LAUGH]
>> Because I would feel really
uncomfortable in that environment.
I think that this kind of thing is an interesting example
because it shows you how powerful our group
expectations are.
And I think that one of the reasons that when you ask
developers in VR and AR Which of the ones which we conveniently
talk about as mixed reality here, right?
That if you ask them which one they think is gonna
be the most likely massive mainstream adoption,
AR regularly hits the top of the list.
They say well when there's certain hurdles that are over
overcome, AR is gonna be everywhere.
And I think it's this.
I have a hard time playing VR when somebody's at home with me.
Unless I have a reason not to,
like I'm gonna say I'm gonna go exercise now.
I'll be back in an hour.
And I almost have to say, I'm leaving the room,
I'm going to the gym.
Because otherwise I can't sit in the room when somebody else is
in the kitchen and just block them out.
And understating kind of those impacts is interesting.
And I think essential for
understanding how people adopt technology.
So, this is how the VR Health Institute, in a lot of ways,
got started.
The system that I use the most for
my game play is the HTC Vive.
And it's run on the back end by something called Steam,
which is one of the largest game distribution platforms on
the market.
And Steam has a nice feature that tracks and
tells you how many hours you've been playing things.
So for most of my life, this has been a mixed sword,
really like a double edged blade.
On one hand, it's nice to know if I spent 30 hours playing
a game, I spent $40 or $50 or $60 on.
Compared to a movie, that's a pretty good investment per hour.
On the other hand, it's kind depressing, you know that I've
spent like 300 hours doing basically nothing [LAUGH] or
at least historically it's been viewed as basically nothing.
But after a while, a few months after I got my Vive,
I realized that I've been playing audiosheild for
more than 100 hours.
And audioshield is a rhythm game, all right.
So basically you have a shield in each hand and
these balls fly at you and you have to block them.
It involves quite a bit of moving back and forth and
it can, at the higher levels, can be quite a lot of energy.
And so I remember thinking to myself,
I feel like I'm exercising, I am breathing hard, I'm sweating.
If, in fact, this is exercise, my virtual reality system is by
far the most effective exercise equipment I've ever owned.
Because I've owned a rowing machine.
I've owned an elliptical, and I've owned a treadmill,
and I promise you I've never spent 100 hours on any of them.
Probably, cumulatively,
have never spent anything close to 100 hours on all of them.
So let me just really quick show you a video of when I talk about
audioshield, what I mean in terms of,
there you go this guy.
So this is the website for the health institute.
Just a little introductory clip, I'm not gonna play all of it,
it's only two minutes long.
But there's a little section where it shows
me kinda dancing around.
And a lot of times when people talk about exercise and VR,
they think of a very stationary person.
And I wanna kind of give an accurate picture of what I'm
talking about.
And I apologize for
the cheesiness of some of this [LAUGH].
[MUSIC]
>> After I got my first virtual reality system, I noticed that
there was one game that I played for more than 150 hours.
And I'm sweating during this,
I was feeling like I was getting exercise.
And a 150 hours- >> This is Audio Shield.
>> Ever used any piece of exercise equipment ever.
>> I don't know if there's any more than that but-
>> From all the data that
we've collected here in the lab I can certainly say that without
a doubt that virtual reality is a form of exercise.
We have some games that focus on tapping out
close to their maximal capacity and enjoying and having fun.
>> What we use this trying to figure out what this persons
above resting multiple of oxygen consumption is.
So what you can compare this to is running outside.
How much is this gaming session equivalent to that
sort of thing.
When I think of video games,
I've always thought of this setting where you're at
home on your couch and you're playing this game.
That is the vision that I had throughout all these years of
video games, and kind of being proven wrong.
I mean I've looked at physiology and all these other things and
of course running you'll get exercise, of course rowing and
all of these other activities will give you exercise.
But now with the research,
we've shown virtual reality games can do just as good.
>> The virtual reality health institute lists
eight games based upon how much exercise they can be.
Cuz one of the problems is, if you really do have a system
that helps you burn calories at a rate that you don't perceive
as being a lot, when even though it really is.
The tendency is to get done with it and
be like, I didn't really even exercise.
[LAUGH] So you kind of need an authoritative source to be able
to say, yes, in fact, you did just exercise.
That was a healthy thing for you to do.
And you can do it again tomorrow and feel good about it.
>> So you got treated to more of that than I originally
intended, but.
So now you have a sense of the amount of movement that we talk
about when we talk about a more active VR experience.
We get to the point about why the VR health industry exists.
So after I started noticing this was in fact
something I thought was exercise at home.
I bought a heart rate monitor, ended up writing an article.
Just taking and sorting from highest to lowest a number of
different VR games that I thought might be good exercise.
And we published it.
All right. I published it.
And abo8t 70% of the responses were very positive.
And about 30% of the responses, I would say,
were almost hostile, right, I mean, almost angry.
So these are a few examples of
the types of responses people get.
Now a lot of times these are paragraphs long and this is
a snippet out of the middle but the sentiment is the same.
All right, so dude just go to gym, get some air,
meet some girls.
Feel good about yourself for a change.
And then another example, this poster is looking for
permission to avoid exercise.
Those here supporting his delusion are harming him,
not helping him.
I know what it's like to get sweaty waving your arms around
while using VR, and I know what it's like to exercise properly.
Trust me, VR is not a suitable substitute for
exercise, all right?
These are deeply ingrained perspectives that people have.
And then there's one that are actually are almost a little
worse and in some respects which are what I refer to as like,
they're the yes but or calm down nobody is saying that.
And these are comments that tend to be left in response to
somebody else's comment about VR is not exercise.
And it tends to be along the lines of,
it's better than nothing, like, they're gonna be lazy gamers
anyways, might as well do a little bit of activity, right?
So the difference is going from a sedentary life to being
semi active.
No healthy person is going to lose 20 pounds playing
Echo Arena, which is a mid-range motion game.
Good for him though.
The reason I include this, and
I was tempted but I couldn't do it because it would be wrong,
replacing the echo arena with VR because the rest of the comment
before and after was certainly about VR as a whole.
And this idea that at best, VR is gonna be like a light walk.
It's better, it's standing up, it's moving around,
it's better than sitting down but still not very helpful.
And this kind of mentality is actually really pervasive,
it is very difficult to get out of, right?
So about two weeks ago the Wall Street journal wrote an article
about a series of gyms that are opening up.
One in Columbus called VR Fit and
a number of others that are kind of exploring the space
of having VR equipment in regular gyms.
And the original article headline was,
Working up a Real Sweat With VR.
There was a video that was attached to it with a headline,
Can VR Tennis Get You Fit?
And then how that ended up getting reported under Reddit
which is a lot of times what I use as the proxy for
what the community thinks is,
Your VR Workout Won't Get You as Fit as You Think, right?
So it started off as an article about how VR might be a tool
that can help people promote exercise and
it gets translated down to almost hostile and
challenging statement about how you are delusional almost to be
thinking that you are gaining energy.
And so, why this happens is that we have spent years, years and
years and years, telling people this is the relationship
between video games and health.
Right, I love this poster.
I dislike this poster and love this poster at the same time.
I think it summarizes a lot of the things that we've been
telling gamers and the health community in general
about video games which is, it's nothing, right?
Do nothing, risk an early death.
Games are bad.
Games will kill you, right?
And so this is a problem nowadays, because for
the first time with the development of mixed reality,
both the VR stuff now and what AR will become in the future,
this thing that is incredibly powerful,
that we engage in on a regular basis,
can suddenly become something that's gonna benefit us.
And yet we have all this kind of social construct
about how to keep that thing which beforehand was perceived
as a negative from doing more harm.
And we now need to get people to rethink that a little bit.
I found surveys that have report that on average the average
American spends six hours a week playing video games,
which is substantially more than the minimum recommended exercise
requirements for Americans by the US government.
One of my favorite stats is that more than 35% of high school
students play three hours a day after school.
So they get off school,
they come home play three hours a day.
The reason I think that's a really interesting stat,
is the reason I know that stat is because it
was collected by the Center for Disease Control.
When they are doing a study on the things that cause you to be
at risk for early preventable death.
And they identify video game playing as one of predictive
characteristics, and so they ask that question.
So we are deeply, deeply entrenched on one side of things
and then we have this cool and interesting technology
that's coming along that can change that.
And we need to figure out how to combine them.
Yeah, go ahead.
>> Did those numbers, I presume that those numbers include
mobile phone games, like the games on your phone?
>> I don't actually have the stats on that.
>> And I'm curious to see was there an increase in that
number, if you know, over time?
Because it seems like the availability of video
games right now is also people use games
as a time waster between tasks or whatever.
And so I'm curious whether that's reflected in that number,
or is it really sedentary sitting down,
I'm playing a game for an hour.
It might have an impact, actually.
>> I don't know.
I know the study was done around 2003, sorry, 2013, 2014.
>> That's definitely in this.
>> So there is definitely, it is very possible.
Another kind of component to that, which I think is really
interesting, is there's been some studies on how Pokemon Go
has impacted how much people walk.
And I don't have referential numbers off the top of my head,
but it was a substantial increase that you had to look at
somebody's walking distance before installing Pokemon Go
versus after.
And you clearly saw an increase in the amount of physical
activity that was going on.
So I don't know about the mobile part of.
So moving along, so talk about in a second,
turning this over to Dr. Kern.
So just out of curiosity, going back to my 100 hours of
Audioshield, and whether or not it was actually exercise.
This isn't going to be a surprise considering the fact
that the title of this talk was talking about the 150 million
calories that have been burned in Audioshield.
But yeah, Steam spy reports that roughly 693,000 hours as of
like two months ago when I collected the data,
having played by the Steam community in Audioshield.
And even if you take it from a very conservative standpoint,
if you say things like, well, I think 25% of those total hours
is somebody just leaving it on the floor and going and
getting lunch.
And an additional 25% of those hours is somebody browsing
the menu, which is a lot more than people actually browse
the menu when you watch them play.
You still end up looking at the average burn
in our studies in Audioshield at the moderate intensity levels.
And multiplying that out equals more than 152 million calories.
The upper end, if you're a little less conservative,
is a range of 250 million calories.
For comparison, the 150s is equivalent of running to and
from the moon 4.8 times,
also several hundred thousand hamburgers avoided eating.
[LAUGH] And so what I think is fascinating about this is
that we might be inadvertently building one of
the largest tract exercise communities in the world.
This is one game out of an ecosystem.
And I think it is totally possible that in five years,
this could be so much larger than it is
in terms of calories burned without the community
ever really thinking of itself as a community of exercisers.
Yeah.
>> Based on those previous stats,
I think that averages out to about 200 calories per hour.
Is that right?
>> I don't know off the top of my head.
>> But just doing simple division of the total number of
hours played and the total calories consumed,
that seemed to be about 200 calories an hour.
>> A little less than that for Audioshield.
That's a little high.
>> Okay.
>> So there's also two components there, so
you're right.
That's on the lowest intensity.
So a lot of times when the subjects came in,
they were not familiar with Audioshield.
It's a skill-based game.
This is actually something that I expected to come up in the Q
and A afterwards, which is how do you actually go out and
figure out how to rate a game?
When do you rate a game that changes experiences?
How much experience do you let the players have before your
rate them?
So that was the average of inexperienced players
in the study.
I can tell you that my own personal, like when I play,
when I hook myself up to the metabolic cart, or when I am
hooked up to the metabolic cart, it actually produces the highest
calorie burned per hour of any of the systems we've tested,
including being competitive with uphill competitive mountain
biking or like the Tour de France.
>> So roughly how many calories per hour [CROSSTALK]?
>> So I don't want to say.
But I mean, we can go and I can look it up and
get back to you on it.
I just don't have it off the top of my head.
I don't wanna say the wrong thing.
>> No, for what that was, it would average about 150.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> All right, so this is where I then turn it over because I'm
not the one best qualified to talk about how to do this.
So, Dr. [INAUDIBLE].
>> Thanks, Aaron.
Okay, so the question was asked a little bit earlier.
How do we assess this?
So this is how we do it.
It was very interesting.
I found it interesting anyways,
when Aaron first addressed me and asked if there was any way
we could actually quantify exercise.
And I said, well, sure.
Yeah, all we gotta do is hook them up to a metabolic cart and
measure their oxygen consumption.
And then, I guess, being in the area of exercise physiology,
I assume everybody knows that that's how you do these things.
But no, not everybody does.
So what we ended up saying to do,
maybe we don't have that any more.
There we go, this is kind of a picture showing you what
happens when we bring somebody into the lab.
And these are some students,
that's Dulce who you heard talking a minute ago.
This was data that we collected for her master's thesis, and
other faculty and folks who are demonstrating the whole thing.
Here is a mask.
Putting that on, we will collect all of your oxygen and
all of your CO2.
And we can quantify how many breaths you take,
what the volume of air you move.
And then that is hooked up to a metabolic cart that actually
will tell you the percentage of oxygen and
the percentage of CO2 in both the incoming,
we know what room air is, but on your expired side.
So we did that and then added the HTC VIVE goggles,
which you can see over here on Angelina, on top of that, and
had them play the games.
And we did this for 41 different individuals, 21 guys.
[MUSIC]
And 20 women.
So we looked at three different games.
[MUSIC]
As the already star of the show, Audio Shield.
Holopoint, which as you can tell, is an archery game.
And you've got things coming at you, and you gotta duck and
go around and be aware.
And then the last one there, the big caloric expenditure event is
the Thrill of the Fight, which you can see is a boxing game.
You kinda see what's going on here.
So you're ducking, getting out of the way.
You're throwing punches.
And that one ended up being the one that really
got people going.
So before we did this,
we actually measured them first on a treadmill,
exercising classically doing what is called a VO2 max test.
So if any of you've ever done that and
have a familiarity with what kind of a thing.
If any of you have ever had a heart attack, they make you do
these things that they keep at a very low key.
Looking at VO2 max is one of those things that we look at for
someone's overall cardiovascular fitness.
It is considered the gold standard.
And if you're hooked up to a metabolic cart,
then you get to do all those measurements as well.
Not just looking at the max heart rate but
also looking at the amount of oxygen you can consume.
So we did that first for every one of these subjects and
had a benchmark.
This is what their max capacity is.
Then we threw them up on those three games a couple of days
later after they revamped from the max test, and
measured the same things.
And then we were be able to say what percentage of that maximal
capacity they were working at for each one of these games.
This is an example,
the kind of printout you'd see on the metabolic cart.
So this is starting out, and this is Aaron's data.
Since he had a copy of that on his own thing,
it was easy to put the slide in here.
This is him playing Audio Shield that's been on testosterone,
its been ramped up.
He's played Audio Shield for so long the regular game is not, so
he's bumped it three and four times.
So he's way up here on Audio Shield, which you'll find on
the next couple slides, is one of our lower-rated games.
And then the other two, we didn't actually quantify in
this study, but it is- >> Knockout League.
>> Knockout League, which is a very popular game.
So we had him exercise for ten minutes, then rest for
five, get back close to what his resting metabolic rate was,
not quite, still left over from playing.
Play a second game, and we looked at the average score
in the last five minutes of the game.
So they got up and
into what we call in the exercise a steady state.
So you don't wanna do things when things are all in
transition.
You want them to be at a nice constant.
Even though this game you're moving around and doing stuff,
if you were able to maintain that,
then we'd say that's the metabolic cost for that period.
And then he came back down and rested again, and
then turned around and did the same thing back and forth.
On your left-hand side, VE is ventilation.
RF is respiratory frequencies, so number of breaths.
So it's a breath by breath system
collecting every single one.
And then on the other panel we've got oxygen consumption, or
VO2, and then VCO2.
So from those things we could actually calculate what kind of
fuel you're using when you exercise.
So here is the compiled data from Dolsey's thesis, actually.
Looking at rest values, Thrill of the Fight, Audio Shield and
Holopoint, those three games that you saw people dancing
around and doing on the screens.
And we put all of the data together, separated out men and
women, those who had been gamers and consider themselves gamers
versus people who had never done any gaming before.
It's the first time they ever came in,
just to see if there was some big difference between the two.
In general, the results were pretty much the same between
everybody in that Thrill of the FIght was by
far the highest oxygen consumer for any one of the populations.
Then Audio Shield was the lowest, in the white bar, and
lastly Hollowpoint was was kinda up and down.
That's more of a skill game doing this archery thing and
getting it to go.
And people are laughing a lot because they're missing things
and it's coming back at you and all of those things.
And in particular,
if you look at the differences between the gamers versus
the non-gamers, those things.
But the energy expenditure is up there, 10 to 15 on average.
The error bars are there, but 10 to 12 kcals per minute.
Yeah?
>> Is the fact that the female consumptions are lower
than males a natural expected thing?
>> Mm-hm. >> Okay, so
it's just physiological?
>> Yeah, kcals per minute is a calculation that's done on
liters of oxygen per minute.
So we usually look at everything in relative terms.
The previous slide had millilitres of oxygen per
kilogram of body weight, so it's a relative term.
But to get the calculation into kcals, you have to go
back to just absolute liters to then multiply it out.
And since women are usually smaller than men,
we end up with a smaller number of calories.
Good question.
It's one of the questions I use on most of my exams.
You have to figure out, why would the women be less?
We can change that into the kind of measurement that Aaron was
talking about, metabolic equivalence.
Trying to put this into terms that people will understand and
talk about multiples of resting metabolism.
So these are called METS in the exercise physiology world,
metabolic equivalence.
And they have a range.
The American College of Sports Medicine has set all of these
things up, and given whatever those numbers come out to,
they have qualifications.
That's vigorous exercise if it's something between
7.5 to 10 METS.
And that's where Thrill of the Fight landed.
If it's between 4.5 to 7,
then that's considered moderate exercise.
So this would be exercising five to seven times your resting
metabolic rate.
In numbers, that equates to 3.5 milliliters of
oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute.
So if you have four of those, you're up to 14.
Five, 17.5.
Most of the people that we saw in the study,
young college-aged individuals,
had V02 maxes in the area of the high 30s to mid 50s.
So these guys were exercising in a pretty good range,
50, 60% of their maximal capacity,
which would quantify them into the vigorous category.
The last thing that we did in the study was actually
ask people if they thought they were exercising.
And if they were, what level did they think they were exercising?
Were they exercising really hard, was it mild exercise?
How would you compare that?
So this is just the subjective
information that you get from the person.
Even though we measured them as exercising on a vigorous,
based on their metabolic data.
Even during Thrill of the Fight, the numbers that we got,
all participants males, females,
gamers, non-gamers, they thought they were exercising moderately.
They were sweating like pigs out there.
And the whole thing, it's getting very nasty.
And but no, as far as they were concerned, they were having fun.
They were having a good time.
And even though they were doing this, the best was no,
that was light.
That wasn't like I was out running in the hills.
Yeah.
>> Do you have data for in comparison and
what they are rating of running, sprinting, swimming are?
>> Sure, yeah, most of that data is very old and
all published stuff.
Are you talking about the metabolic cost data, VO2?
>> So ratings and proceedings.
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> Their own ratings.
>> In their own ratings, when they do the max test,
the thing I was talking about on the treadmill,
where they're going to their maximal capacity,
you ask them at every stage before you go up, where are you?
And it's a scale.
It's called the Borg Scale, named after Dr. Borg.
Who created it in the 60's that goes from six to 20, and it
actually correlates very highly to what your heart rate is.
People never knew that but that's how he made the scale.
And so you start of, you're walking and so forth, but
how do you feel on a scale of nothing to I'm gonna die.
And they're pointing, seven at the beginning, and
the next stage they go, that's a light workout, nine.
Then you get to the moderate where there's now jogging at
a fairly good pace and they'll say, yeah, that's hard exercise.
And then you get up another couple of stages,
and all of a sudden they're done here at 18, 19.
And when they get close to the 19 to 20,
we're looking at all the metabolic markers and we know.
So we have their own perceived exertion for that activity.
But for this activity, when they're doing it,
based on that familiarity with the board scale.
Those were the numbers they gave us so nobody gave us
any numbers higher than 14 for how hard they were working.
Even though their oxygen consumption was very close to
what their maximal capacity was.
>> So their bodies are experiencing the same thing, but
their minds are experiencing completely different things.
>> That would kind of be our premise,
at least it looks that way.
>> Something like distraction, or-
>> Yeah.
Exactly, you've got your mind doing something else, and
you don't even realize that you're really exercising.
>> Yeah, I think there's also another field of health research
in VR, and it's going about pain management.
So what they found is that burn victims who have to have
dressings changed three times a day.
It's very difficult form of pain to manage because you can't just
generally drug yourself up the entire time and local anesthesia
can too powerful, and so it's historically been difficult one.
And so they've found that there's a reduction of perceived
pain as somebody's in VR when that drape and
bandages is being changed.
And I think it's probably, whatever the mechanism is,
I think probably some of the mechanisms,
it's the perception of level of discomfort.
And if your brain is engaged in something else or again,
I don't know the mechanism.
But if you are not paying attention to it somehow, it seem
to translate and I'm hesitant to name numbers off of it.
But I was actually just reading an article the other day
that found that the pain reduction has been self reported
by the patient as being stronger than meta-morphine for
VR treatments.
>> Yeah, there's a gentleman who's actually doing that up
at UCSF.
And he contacted me when he saw some of the articles that have
come out in the newspaper and everything else, and
said, can we work together on these things?
But we're looking at the exercise component, but
I understand exactly where the idea is coming from.
So those were really interesting findings, as far as
the first time we'd actually quantified, or tried to quantify
the results of using some virtual reality for exercise.
So here is, using again that metabolic equivalent score for
different activities, and these are things,
again, that are published data.
People have quantified the cost of vacuuming the floor,
quantified the cost of washing your car.
There's tables of data for activity.
People wear activity trackers, and
then collect oxygen consumption.
And so what we have, kinda highlighted there,
on the red bar is the games that we've looked at so far.
We've looked at a number of other ones, and
here was for a Wii Fit came into play.
So these guys are already miles above where Wii Fit had gotten.
And I think, as Erin would probably say,
one of the nice things is, most of these games,
you can change as your skill level changes.
You don't have to go out and buy a new thing.
It's kind of an added bonus to the whole prospect. Yeah.
>> Yeah,
and just because the question came up earlier,
this particular number was from the higher intensity levels of?
>> That were, yeah, his own data.
>> Fruit Ninja is the VR version, not the phone version?
>> Correct.
>> Okay. >> Which is exactly like
the phone version, except for you have swords in your hand.
>> [LAUGH] >> So
again, that's our contention is that maybe this is
not really perceiving that they're exercising as much.
And also maybe they're having fun and maybe they'll come back
and do it again, whereas a lot of times that's not the case.
So one of the things we have tried to do, and we've only done
it once, but we're gonna do it again this Friday.
On the San Francisco State Campus,
just recently a new facility, the wellness center was built.
Yeah?
>> Have you encountered for the novelty effect?
In other words, half a million people are with these things, because-
>> Does it wear off?
>> Does it wear off, right?
>> They haven't collected that much data,
the only person I can talk to is him.
And it doesn't seem to wear off with him because he's-
>> I think it's a well known
effect also in gyms, right?
That you start off, you're motivated, you get on a program.
And then like going the second, the fifth, and
about two months later down the road, [CROSSTALK].
>> Compliance is a huge, huge issue.
>> I don't have data for that, right?
But that is actually the entire premise of the questions about
whether or
not this is actually a more effective form of exercise.
And is the basis for when I said, for myself at least,
that the VR has been the most effective exercise I've ever
included in our own is because I've continued to use it.
I think everything has that fall off, right?
And I actually compare that same curve to my Xbox and my PS4,
which is when I buy a new game I will play that game a lot in
the first few weeks and then over time,
I'll play it less and eventually it's reduced to zero.
The differences between that and my exercise equipment
is that it resets every time I buy a new experience.
And so, possibly,
the one of the most powerful things about VR is not so
much that it's possible to get a variety of exercises out of it.
But that it has an incredible diversity in types of
experiences you can choose from.
And if I could pay 50 bucks a month and buy a new game and
that would keep me interested in going to the gym quote-unquote,
in a way that I have not been historically interested in
doing.
I would find that to be an amazing value.
And so, the hypothesis is that,
that's what we're moving towards.
It is not there yet that we will eventually,
this technologies will develop into this tools that solve so
many of the issues that keep you from exercising on a regular
basis, that being one of them >> I was wondering how it
compares to some of the more social forms of exercises like-
>> Spin class?
>> [CROSSTALK] And spin classes, and things that where they don't
have just internal motivators, they're externally motivated.
There's a coach kinda yelling just a few more hills or
whatever, right?
And the social component of or the dance component and
some of the dance exercises must be something like that as well.
So it's an interesting one too.
>> Which helps you to get more engaged into it.
>> [CROSSTALK] But also probably has the similar effects where
you're focusing on the music and focusing on the thrill
of the experience, whatever that might be.
And you might actually rate your level of exercise similarly
lower on aggregate, than if you're just like on a treadmill
running, and your mind is focused only on running.
>> Correct.
>> You just wanna shoot yourself cuz you don't like running.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Exactly.
>> We have a concept that we refer to,
that we talked about recently is the painless minute of exercise.
That in a lot of ways what I'm searching for and
I think a lot of people are searching for
is that moment when you're exercising and
you're not thinking about the exercising.
And the different types of exercise have
a different percentage of painless minutes.
So you give me a treadmill without a TV, the amount of
time, minutes I spend thinking about running on the treadmill
is pretty high, especially at the end of it when I'm tired.
You give me with a TV and
a highly interesting Netflix show, it's a higher number
and percentage of the minutes are painless because I'm
engaged in that.
But I think in a way with the potential of the VR stuff is.
It has the potential to be the highest number of painless
minutes possible in an experience.
If you find something you are engaged in,
that also makes you perceive as less exercised, you play longer.
>> I think it would probably compare well to group sports.
If you end up playing soccer,
you are pretty much continuously sprinting and running, but
your focus is definitely not on sprinting and running.
And you are not thinking about this,
I mean yes in retrospect you're thinking about it as exercise,
but it's about let's win, let's score, let's blah blah.
Good [CROSSTALK] >> You're
distracted in some way.
>> Yeah. Well, Yeah.
It's a game and you're there with your team.
I don't know.
There's other components to it.
[CROSSTALK] >> Sure.
>> You're not there to run, you've get the ball and
score a goal, right?
>> Sure. >> But
running is a consequence of it.
>> Mm-hm.
>> Well explain to me why people don't come back and defend.
[LAUGH] I'm sorry what was that?
>> Explain why people don't come back and defend in soccer.
[CROSSTALK] >> Cuz they like to score goals.
[LAUGH].
>> Stand there.
[LAUGH] They don't score a goal.
[INAUDIBLE] they stay there.
>> Exactly.
[CROSSTALK] [LAUGH] >> The novelty aspect is
definitely a good one.
And that we did ask some folks.
When we went to this,
this is kind of the next phase of what we're going to.
Beside continuing to rank other games and give them ratings so
that way folks can, and on the VR institute website.
If you've created a game, you can give us that game and
we'll rate it,
if we see it's gonna be a valuable fitness kind of a game.
And give it a ranking, give it a badge with a number on it.
But we also wanted to find out if we can do some fitness
classes with this, and would that be something that
people would be interested in doing?
And so last Wednesday evening, we took the unit down to this
brand new health center that we got on the state
campus that we just opened a month and a half ago.
So unfortunately we don't even have any great pictures up at
their website but
the architectural drawing of the thing.
But this is right inside the foyer and we set up the whole VR
headset and just asked students as they walk by.
Hey, have you ever tried VR, would you like to see if
this is any exercise, just do it for five minutes or something.
And nobody was doing it at first, and
the next thing you know, everybody was in line and
they all wanted to see what was going on.
And so as a result they did.
And the kind of cool thing was, there's a circular staircase.
It goes up to the second floor.
People just started standing around here and watching and
seeing what was going on.
And next thing you know, here's the line forming out and
they all wanted to see what it was like.
Very exciting.
The folks there we had to convince them a little bit in
the gym, if we >> [LAUGH]
>> Were able to get
this equipment here,
would you guys be interested in having these classes?
Do you think the student body would be interested?
And sure enough they pretty much said they were.
We asked them some questions.
Just kind of really brief questionnaire, obviously.
If it was available at your gym,
how likely would it be that you would come to VR class.
If you look at the numbers here,
the 29 out of the 37 that actually had answered.
And this is a combination of data from place that
actually is a VR gym, fit gym, VR fit.
And what we collected there at the masseuse center.
And so it's promising to see that they would do that.
Other questions that of course people like 24 hours or
24 fitness would wanna know how much would you be willing to pay
to come to a VR fitness class and get that kind of data for
them and
they may actually help support doing this kind of research.
But that's kinda where we are at this point in time.
And I'm glad you guys have asked questions throughout the whole
process but if you have any more, please,
we would be more than happy to answer this.
>> Stand back up again.
>> Yes, stand on back up Pick up any ideas,where would
you see this kind of stuff going.
Or do you think, trying to address the novelty aspect.
I mean if we do this as a fitness class,
then obviously we'll be able to
see how many people come back and come back again.
And do you find this more intriguing form of exercise than
the classic forms of exercise.
>> Yeah.
>> I wonder how would you scale these.
So at the moment you're running on a steady game but
there are potentially maybe some games out there.
You cannot run one of them, can you scale these?
>> We already started but go ahead.
>> So one of the things that works in our favor in that case
is that most VR games are probably not really great
candidates for exercise.
So we've had to make a number of assumptions in the ratings.
And this is actually another interesting thing that
I mentioned earlier.
How do you go about rating games that might not be the same in
the first 15 minutes versus the last 15 minutes.
And are so heavily influenced by how you play,
how you get you play like this or are you punching at things?
So one of the assumptions we made is that
the people who are interested in the health rate, in
the exercise rating are people who are proactively looking for
experiences that are beneficial to them.
So if a game is going to be clearly rated as resting,
it probably requires less attention from us than
if the game could be somewhere between the walking or
elliptical range and the peak.
So right there, you get to narrow your focus a lot.
And then the second thing is that we get to then take
advantage of the fact that we happen to be near a student body
that's engaged and interested in this sort of stuff.
And so we're putting together processes now where
we have students come in,
we get their baseline data, we benchmarked that against heart
rate data from a trusted meter, monitoring device.
Which they can send home with them.
And that way, if you have a first generation game,
somebody submits that you think is likely to be high quality
exercise but not sure,
then we could have them do a preliminary test at home.
And if it qualifies, we could have them come in and
do a full metabolic test.
And so we can outsource a lot of it.
And then really just focus in detail on the-
>> Yeah we actually had
really hoped that they were gonna be, again last week we
had a meeting for students who were interested.
And all the students who came and thought this would be really
cool because they did read on the little caption that they
would get these games to test at home, free of charge.
So that sells a lot of games right there,
interest right there, and then there was pizza.
So that, two things, you do this for students.
It's wonderful.
But they, of those people that came in, only one of them has
his own VR setup that we could use for this study already.
And we're not gonna buy them all,
the whole headsets or the computer.
Yeah it's there.
Yeah.
>> So with the boxing game for
example if you were to compare that to a multiplayer
version where the opponent is not a bot but is actually
another human in another VR setup maybe in a different room.
>> Mm-hm.
>> Do you expect either of your core results to change, which is
the number of calories burned and the perceived pain level?
I have not played those games, you have.
>> So I've actually thought about that quite a bit.
And the reason why is cuz I was curious about why it is that
the thrill of fight could outperform in the metabolic
score traditional boxing, real world boxing.
And my hypothesis on that is that there's a lot of other
things you do in real world boxing like trying not get hit
[LAUGH] that you don't have to worry about nearly as much.
There's also positive between rounds,
there's the, >> Mm-hm.
>> Might be broken up for a period of time once it recovers.
So I don't know, I would expect to be similar,
maybe a little less.
Because I think if you have two players that are both humans,
the cadence might be slightly different, right?
They might not both constantly be doing this.
You might jog around a lot more, you might dodge more.
I don't know for sure if that would be an increase or
a decrease.
I mean, a lot of times if you wanna look at this a different
way, if you record somebody playing Thrill of the Fight and
how many times they duck.
And you count each one of those as a squat which they
essentially are.
You can start saying, okay,
how many squats is this going to be in a given exercise period?
And would that go up or would it go down
If you're fighting a real human, I don't know.
I think largely comparable if two were equally skilled.
I will say- >> Yeah we haven't done
any of those multiplayer games.
But students have commented and I think that would be one of
the cool things doing a fitness class.
If we had these students in a room this size and
their play area is set up and have them playing a, Aaron
mentioned one game that's kinda like a capture the flag game.
And two people are working together, buy they got to dodge
behind this, go around that and all these other kinds of things.
I think it could be really exciting, fun, and-
>> If I can, to add onto that,
so your comment earlier about what are the,
VR can be what you make it in a lot of ways, right?
And the type of exercise experience you give to a player
is widely variables depending on what the player wants to do, and
how you kind of engineer that experience.
In this game,
will the social component drive people to try harder and
get higher exercise?
I think absolutely.
In some games, will the competitive version of it
be less, because they're trying to spend more time strategically
aligning themselves?
Probably sometimes, right?
I think with a computer-controlled player you
can do some really, really cool things, right?
For example, there's a group that I work with down in
San Francisco, and they're just now starting on what's called
a game that we're referring to internally as Dungym, so
Dungym with a G-Y-M, gym.
And the whole purpose of Dungym is really to build
a game that is fun, compelling, the level up,
that's multiplayer cooperative.
You can go dungym-questing together.
I would love a world where I can
go to a gym with my friends to go raid a camp, right?
>> [LAUGH] >> Sold it.
>> Yeah, there's a lot of.
I remember a long time ago when I was at a conference once when
I wrote in the game industry where I was talking to
a researcher who researched game addiction.
And it was surprising to me cuz one of
the things he told me is that game addiction doesn't exist.
And which is odd considering he studied it.
And he said we misunderstand a lot of times what game
addiction is.
If you take out the games that have no multiplayer component to
it, there's very little evidence that people
have the classic game addiction of going into the basement and
excluding the outside world and not having the social contacts.
So where you find game addiction is really much more like
Internet addictions where people replace their real world outside
connections with in game real life connections.
So they have friends in the game in lieu of having friends in
real life.
And this speaks to the incredible power of kind of
these social networks, right?
And obviously you don't want to necessarily addict people to
a game through social networks.
But if you can figure out a way to use that power
to lead to healthy lifestyles, that's really powerful.
With dungym, and with other games, right?
One of the key pillars of its design is throughout the design
process we measure for caliber.
So let's say you have a monster, and he's big and
he's designed to take two and a half to three minutes to defeat.
And he's got points on him that you have to hit and
move around a lot and we can calculate out.
Okay, we expect you to burn 35 to 40 calories per monster.
If you want to do an excercise routine
we'll generate a dungeon for you that can hit a certain target.
Also, if you wear a heart rate monitor,
which can then feedback to the server and
inform the game, you can target heart rate bands, right?
So the monsters can be harder or easier depending on what you
need as it's interactive and reactive design.
And then also you can do things like progression.
Say you wanted to have a 12 week exercise program,
well you have a dungym that's 12 levels deep.
You have progression of power ups and tools and
all the various things you have in a regular game but
you're crafting that in the community experience.
And after awhile that's not everybody's experience, but
there will be people who will really, really enjoy that.
And there's gonna be a variation of that, I think, for
lots of different people, and that's the power of it.
>> Yeah. >> What do you think about
the chance for injury with a lot of repetitive motion?
And I think with so many VR games coming out, I expect there
to be PC gaming nowadays, it's gonna be a lot of quick games.
The developers won't have time to study the physiology or
the ergonomics of the movement, and
perhaps you have really good chance of injury.
No guidance on movements, where people just flick things
like Wii, they have the wrist injuries with a lot of flicking.
So what do you think about that and
how do you- >> No it's a great question.
Thank you, I don't think that anybody has studied any
physiology associated with the games.
From what little review of literature, there are a couple
people that have looked at heart rate during the different games.
And you're right about the Wii Fit getting injuries because
they were doing repetitive motion kind of activities.
I haven't in the games that we've looked at in
the lab anyway, there hasn't been any real
repetitive motion kind of things that people would go through
even if they were playing for several hours.
Aaron did mention when we were driving over here about a friend
who did have a mild heart attack because he played for
four hours straight and he really should not have done
that, and nobody told him not to.
But it's kind of like you have to say, okay,
maybe we've got to put a disclaimer on some game that you
could really get yourself going.
If you're at risk for disease and
you have this maybe you need to get your physician to clear you
before you actually start using this as a mode of exercise,
just like any other kind of exercise.
>> This is not related to the natural physiology,
but it's more about the psychology of labeling
games with marking them as strenuous versus not.
You actually feel like that you might inadvertently cause
some games not to be popular if you label them super
strenuous, right?
Because most people look at the,
most people are not exercise nuts, right?
And they are looking for the game,
they might not want to have a game that's super strenuous.
And like you said,
most of these games actually have ranges, right?
They have a beginning level to the ultimate level.
So in some sense labeling something as strenuous
might be a negative signal rather than a positive signal.
And I'm wondering if you considered ranges rather
than a label?
Like this scheme varies from whatever easy to moderate or
whatever, rowing to swimming, I don't know.
>> Well the badges have a small range.
It's just one to two, three to four,
because that's kinda what we saw on the games that we've got,
so there's a small range in there.
I don't know if we have a little disclaimer down at
the bottom- >> We do.
>> Saying it could, yeah, I'd forgotten.
>> Yeah, I will say so
this is again one of those sort of philosophical, and
I see you trying to move us along.
>> Yes, it's time to go.
>> Sorry Mark.
>> But, again, it goes back to some of the assumptions.
I actually think there's a bit of a selection bias or
self-selection process will happen.
The people who are interested in the ratings at all will be
people who are looking for games that are higher intensity.
And if you're not interested in it then that's probably not
the characteristic you're keying off of.
I don't think that there's much downside to a game
kind of publicizing to the people who are interested in it
that it can be good exercise and the people I think who,
it's kind of like ESRB ratings now, right?
If I care about content those ratings could theoretically
distract, guide me towards or away from getting content, but
I haven't looked at one of those ratings in a long time.
Because I'm not the demographic anymore that carries.
>> But around that, I actually think that ratings matter a lot.
Movie industry goes through hoops to get a particular,
not get an R rating, right?
>> Yes. >> And they'll modify
the movie and the storyline to not get an R rating.
And that might actually, down the road, you might actually
have games or game designers that are designing games
specifically not to be super strenuous, to get it not.
I mean I think that's a great problem to have.
>> Yeah, I was gonna say,
if it ever gets to the point that enough people care about
exercise in VR, that that's a problem,
then that's a huge step forward.
That's an interesting discussion that we can have offline.
But I think when you inform people about
what they're looking for designers or
consumers they get to figure out what they're looking for, right?
And so I don't think there's anything negative
about a designer saying they target.
In fact, I would actually argue you absolutely as a designer.
If you're in VR and you don't know the difference between
designing a game to exhaust you in 30 minutes versus one
you can play for an hour and a half without exhausting you.
You are kind of overlooking a big characteristic of VR
development, or AR development.
You should have in your mind your target goals,
because they can be opposites.
Designing a game for good exercise is not necessarily
a good thing if you're designing a game that's different.
So anyways I'll.
>> Okay, thank you very much for your talk.
I think it sparked many conversations here,
we will take them offline now.
Thank you also for the people who were probably on
their offices watching your talk.
And I think you're going to be around during the day, so
other people can catch up with you guys.
Okay, thank you. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you very much.