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>> Bill Moyers: THIS WEEK ON
>> Marshall Ganz: AN ORGANIZER
STARTS BY ASKING NOT, "WHAT'S MY
BUT "WHO ARE MY PEOPLE?"
'CAUSE ORGANIZING IS ABOUT
THEY FACE?
CHALLENGE?
>> Bill Moyers: AND --
LARGER SORT OF BEATING HEART AND
PEOPLE FEELING DEEPLY INSPIRED
BY EACH OTHER.
BUT IT TAKES WORK.
>> Madeline Janis: EVERYBODY
DESERVES A GOOD JOB AND A DECENT
AND THAT OUR GOVERNMENT, OUR
DEMOCRACY HAS THE TOOLS TO
ENSURE THAT.
>> Announcer: FUNDING IS
PROVIDED BY --
YORK, CELEBRATING 100 YEARS OF
PHILANTHROPY, AND COMMITTED TO
DOING REAL AND PERMANENT GOOD IN
THE WORLD.
THE KOHLBERG FOUNDATION.
INDEPENDENT PRODUCTION FUND,
FOUNDATION, A JOHN AND POLLY
THE CLEMENTS FOUNDATION.
CRITICAL ISSUES.
SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS WHOSE
MISSION IS TO PROMOTE COMPASSION
AND CREATIVITY IN OUR SOCIETY.
THE BERNARD AND AUDRE RAPOPORT
THE JOHN D. AND CATHERINE T.
TO BUILDING A MORE JUST,
VERDANT, AND PEACEFUL WORLD.
ANNE GUMOWITZ.
THE BETSY AND JESSE FINK
BARBARA G. FLEISCHMAN.
AND GROUP RETIREMENT PRODUCTS.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE YOUR RETIREMENT
COMPANY.
>> Bill Moyers: WELCOME ONCE
AGAIN.
OF INEQUALITY, CORRUPTION,
POVERTY, DYSFUNCTION AND
BUFFOONERY THAT WASHES OVER US
EVERY DAY?
WELL, YOU CAN TUNE OUT AND
AWAY UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE, OR YOU
HAVE HEARD FROM PEOPLE AT THIS
TABLE WHO HAVE REFUSED TO GIVE
IN TO THE LITANY OF WOE.
>> George Goehl: WE NEED A
MOVEMENT OF TRUTH TELLERS.
>> Senator Bernie Sanders:
-- THE KIND OF PROGRESSIVE
GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT --
>> Roseann Demoro: -- A SOCIAL
IN, THAT'S NOT THE POLITICS OF
OF FEAR, BUT THE POLITICS OF
>> Tom Morello: THERE'S TWO WAYS
TO APPROACH HISTORY.
YOU SIT IN YOUR ARMCHAIR AND
WATCH IT ON THE NEWS AND YOU
AND YOU MAKE IT.
>> Susan Crawford: THEY CAN PUSH
THE REST OF US TO WAKE UP AND DO
>> Sheila Bair: PEOPLE NEED TO
THIS --"
THAT WE WANT COMES FROM BELOW.
>> Richard Wolff: -- THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN AND WILL
OF CHANGES THAT CAN GET US OUT
OF THIS DILEMMA.
>> Vince Warren: I WANT TO SEE
THAT CHANGE.
TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.
>> Bill Moyers: TO THAT CHORUS
MARSHALL GANZ.
NEVER GIVEN IN TO DESPAIR OR
>> Marshall Ganz: HOW CAN CHANGE
THERE ARE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH
IT TURNS OUT DAVID CAN SOMETIMES
WIN.
>> Bill Moyers: AT HARVARD'S
MARSHALL GANZ TEACHES THE NEXT
STUDENTS FROM ALL OVER THE
WORLD.
HE TELLS THEM, "WHEN IN DOUBT,
JUST REMEMBER THE STORY IN THE
>> Marshall Ganz: WHAT DID YOU
TAKE FROM THE CLASSIC STORY OF
DAVID AND GOLIATH?
HOW DOES IT BEGIN?
>> GOLIATH IS MARCHING OUT AND
REPEATEDLY CHALLENGING THE
CHALLENGE HIM.
>> Marshall Ganz: RIGHT.
DAY AFTER DAY.
THE FOOD TO HIS BROTHERS AND
ONE DOING ANYTHING TO RESPOND TO
THIS?"
>> Marshall Ganz: IN OTHER
TO ACT, COMMIT, AND THEN THE
ACTION BEGINS.
UNTIL THAT POINT, NOTHING IS
SHIELD, TAKE MY ARMOR," WHAT
DOES DAVID DO?
SEE, DAVID DOESN'T HAVE IT ALL
FIGURED OUT.
HE'S IN ACTION HERE.
HE DOESN'T HAVE IT ALL FIGURED
OUT.
HERE, YOU NEED WEAPONRY TO FIGHT
HAPPENS?
HE CAN'T MOVE.
HE CAN'T MOVE.
THAT'S WHEN HE HAS HIS MOMENT OF
INSIGHT AND HE LOOKS DOWN AT HIS
I'M NOT A SOLDIER.
AND THAT'S, TIM, WHEN HE SAYS,
PROTECT MY FLOCK FROM WOLF AND
IT WASN'T WITH A SHIELD.
MAYBE GOLIATH'S JUST ANOTHER
JUST ANOTHER BEAR.
WHAT'S GOLIATH'S REACTION?
YOU SEND A BOY WITH A STICK.
AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE THIRD
"HO" A STONE IN THE FOREHEAD AND
MIGHT AS WELL BE MARSHALL GANZ'S
JOB DESCRIPTION.
STRUGGLE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS.
THE LEGENDARY CESAR CHAVEZ AND
OF CALIFORNIA WHO TOILED ENDLESS
HOURS AND MOUNTING DAYS, PICKING
CROPS FOR NEXT TO NOTHING.
THREE DECADES AFTER MARSHALL
GANZ HAD DROPPED OUT OF HARVARD,
HE WENT BACK TO FINISH HIS
DEGREE AND EARN A DOCTORATE.
TO BECOME THE ARCHITECT BEHIND
ORGANIZING OF STUDENTS AND
NETWORK, A GLOBAL COMMUNITY OF
RESEARCHERS MOBILIZING FOR
DEMOCRACY.
EXPERIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY IN
WINS" MARSHALL GANZ, IT'S GOOD
TO MEET YOU.
>> Marshall Ganz: IT'S GOOD TO
>> Bill Moyers: STORIES HAVE
BEEN A POWERFUL PART OF YOUR
WHY STORIES?
MY FATHER'S A RABBI.
FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID
THAT AT A CERTAIN POINT YOU WERE
SLAVES IN EGYPT.
I'D NEVER BEEN A SLAVE OR BEEN
THAT WHAT IT MEANT WAS THE STORY
AND THEN OUT TO THE FARM
WORKERS.
AND WE'RE IN THE RELIGIOUS
NARRATIVE.
WAS TO ORGANIZE A MARCH FROM
BUT IT WASN'T A MARCH.
IT WAS A PILGRIMAGE.
SO IN MY EXPERIENCE IN
AND THEY WEREN'T THE WHOLE
STORY.
THE STRATEGY MATTERED, STRUCTURE
COURAGE.
>> Bill Moyers: UNTIL I READ
YOUR BOOK ABOUT CHAVEZ AND THE
STRIKERS, I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MUCH
THEY TOLD, THE STORIES THAT THEY
INHERITED, ADDED UP TO A STORY
MOVEMENTS FROM, LIKE, INTEREST
MOVEMENTS HAVE NARRATIVES.
ARE NOT JUST ABOUT REARRANGING
THEY ALSO REARRANGE MEANING.
AND THEY'RE NOT JUST ABOUT
IS GOOD.
SO THEY HAVE THIS CULTURAL PIECE
OF WORK THAT MOVEMENTS ARE
DOING, ALONG WITH THE ECONOMIC
AND THE POLITICAL.
NOT IN LIEU OF IT.
KIND OF WORK THAT MOVEMENTS DO
AND SO WHERE DO YOU GO FOR
HOPEFULNESS?
WHERE DO YOU GO FOR COURAGE?
WHERE DO YOU GO?
THAT ARE FOUND WITHIN NARRATIVES
AND WITHIN IDENTITY WORK AND
WITHIN ALL FAITH TRADITIONS,
CULTURAL TRADITIONS.
CAMPBELL TOLD ME THAT THAT WAS
THAT JUNG WRAPPED HIS PSYCHOLOGY
INTO THE STORIES OF WHAT HAD
AND IF HE COULD GET SOMEBODY
INTO A STORY, HE KNEW THAT
PERSON WOULD DISCOVER WHO HE WAS
MORE LIKELY THAN IF HE DEALT
IT'S THE PARTICULAR.
ASSOCIATE UNDERSTANDING WITH
ABSTRACTION.
>> Marshall Ganz: THE PARTICULAR
THEN BECOMES THE PORTAL ON THE
TRANSCENDENT, BECAUSE IT'S
THROUGH THE PARTICULAR
EXPERIENCE THAT I'M ABLE THEN TO
CONTENT OF THE VALUE THAT IS
MOVING ME.
CHAPLAIN IN THE AMERICAN ARMY.
THE WAR FOR THREE YEARS.
LOT WITH WHAT WERE CALLED DPs.
PERSONS.
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, MY FIFTH
BIRTHDAY PARTY WAS IN A CAMP OF,
A DP CAMP OF ALL CHILDREN.
AND MY MOTHER THOUGHT THAT I
SHOULD GIVE PRESENTS RATHER THAN
WELL, I DIDN'T QUITE GET THAT.
WHY THERE WERE NO PARENTS.
THAT'S THERE, THAT STORIES DO.
>> Marshall Ganz: IT HELPED ME
HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
BEING ABOUT PRINCIPLES, BUT MORE
WHAT JUNG CALLED MORAL
SENTIMENT, IN OTHER WORDS, HOW
OPPOSED TO ALIENATION?
HOW DO I LIVE WITH A SENSE OF MY
FEELING OF DEFICIENCY?
HOW DO I LIVE IN A SPIRIT OF
>> HOW TO BE IN THE WORLD,
RIGHT?
>> Marshall Ganz: HOW TO BE IN
THE WORLD AND CAPABLE OF MORAL
BEINGS IS SORT OF HOW I THINK OF
MAIMONIDES, THE 12TH CENTURY
AS -- SAID, "BELIEF IN THE
PROBABLE."
NOW LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN.
THAT TO BE A REALIST IS TO
A DOMAIN IN WHICH THE PROBABLE
I MEAN, GOLIATH IS MORE LIKELY
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT?
>> Bill Moyers: WAS THERE A TIME
YOU HAD TO DO THAT, WHEN YOU HAD
TO SUSPEND DISBELIEF AND SEE
NECESSITY, THAT IT WAS A
PROBABILITY?
>> Marshall Ganz: BOY, I YOU
GO WORK IN MISSISSIPPI IS --
YOU FINISHED YOUR STUDIES?
BUT I FOUND A CALLING THERE.
>> MARSHALL, WHAT ARE YOUR
MISSISSIPPI THIS SUMMER?
>> Marshal Ganz: READING THE
WITH PEOPLE AND HEARING WHAT WAS
EVANS AND OTHER EVENTS LIKE THAT
OUTRAGE AND INJUSTICE THAT YOU
FEEL YOU MUST ACT.
REALLY UNDERSTOOD OR HEARD OF.
AND IT WASN'T ABOUT CHARITY.
IT WASN'T ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
HELPING.
PEOPLE IN A WAY THAT RESPECTED
AND ENHANCED THEIR AGENCY AND MY
COURSE, DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO
VOTE, ANY PRACTICAL RIGHT TO
MUCH OF GEORGIA, AND SO FORTH,
IN THOSE STATES, AT THAT TIME.
THE WORK WAS TO BUILD A PARALLEL
MISSISSIPPI FREEDOM DEMOCRATIC
PARTY THAT WAS BECAUSE THE
REGULAR DEMOCRATIC PARTY
EXCLUDED BLACKS.
SO OUR IDEA WAS WE WERE GOING TO
BUILD A PARALLEL ONE, CHOOSE A
DELEGATION, GO TO THE ATLANTIC
1964, CHALLENGE THE RACIST
DEMOCRATS, AND REPLACE THEM WITH
OUR DEMOCRATS.
FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
SO THE WORK WAS GOING TO
PEOPLE'S HOUSES, BLACK PEOPLE,
TALKING WITH THEM, REGISTERING
CAUCUS, GET ELECTED.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THREE OF OUR
GROUP WERE KILLED BEFORE WE EVEN
LEFT OXFORD, OHIO.
THAT WAS GOODMAN, CHENEY AND
SCHWERNER.
TILLICH, "LOVE, POWER, AND
>> Marshall Ganz: AND WHERE HE
ARGUES THAT POWER WITHOUT LOVE
CAN NEVER BE JUST, BUT SIMILARLY
LOVE THAT DOESN'T TAKE POWER
JUSTICE.
LEARNED.
>> Bill Moyers: YOU'VE SAID THAT
WHEN YOU TELL A STORY, THE STORY
BECOMES THREE STORIES.
>> Marshall Ganz: YES.
LEADERSHIP SKILL OF MOVING
PEOPLE TO PUBLIC ACTION.
SO I TELL STORIES THAT CAN
COMMUNICATE THE VALUES THAT MOVE
A STORY OF US IS USING NARRATIVE
WE SHARE AS A COMMUNITY.
THEY EXPERIENCE THE CHALLENGE TO
THOSE VALUES THAT REQUIRES
SO SORT OF THREE PIECES.
>> Bill Moyers: SO THAT'S WHAT
MARTIN LUTHER KING MEANT WHEN HE
AT RIVERSIDE CHURCH?
>> Marshall Ganz: THAT'S EXACTLY
RIGHT.
OF WHAT WE'RE CALLED TO AS
AMERICANS, AND AS AMERICANS.
ARE CONFRONTED WITH THE FIERCE
IN THIS UNFOLDING CONUNDRUM OF
LIFE AND HISTORY, THAT IS SUCH A
THING AS BEING TOO LATE.
AND IF WE WILL ONLY MAKE THE
RIGHT CHOICE, WE WILL BE ABLE TO
ELEGY INTO A CREATIVE PSALM OF
PEACE.
CHOICE, WE WILL BE ABLE TO
SYMPHONY OF BROTHERHOOD.
CHOICE, WE WILL BE ABLE TO SPEED
UP THE DAY, ALL OVER AMERICA AND
ALL OVER THE WORLD, WHEN
WATERS, AND RIGHTEOUSNESS LIKE A
MIGHTY STREAM.
AMAZING THE WAY HE'S ABLE TO
CHRISTIAN LANGUAGE, BUT IN A WAY
THAT'S INCLUSIVE AND NOT
EXCLUSIVE.
IT'S REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.
FACE THE FIERCE URGENCY OF A NOW
THAT'S WHAT PUBLIC NARRATIVE IS.
>> Marshall Ganz: SI SE PUEDE,
>> Bill Moyers: WHICH TRANSLATED
>> Marshall Ganz: "YES, WE CAN."
>> Bill Moyers: IS THAT RIGHT?
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, "SI SE
PUEDE" CAME IN ARIZONA, 1972
DENIED FARM WORKERS THE RIGHT TO
ORGANIZE, BOYCOTT.
IT WAS A TERRIBLE LAW.
AND SO WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT WERE
WE GOING TO CHALLENGE IT OR NOT.
SO WE ALL WENT TO ARIZONA TO
AND DOLORES HUERTA ACTUALLY CAME
WE WERE MEETING IN A HOTEL/MOTEL
AND EVERYWHERE I GO, PEOPLE SAY,
'NO SE PUEDE,' 'NO SE PUEDE.'"
YOU CAN'T DO IT, YOU KNOW?
IT'S JUST TOO -- YOU KNOW?
AND SO THAT BECAME THE SLOGAN IN
THAT CAMPAIGN WAS "SI SE PUEDE."
YES, IT CAN BE DONE.
"SI SE PUEDE."
LOST THAT NIGHT, AND THERE WAS A
>> Marshall Ganz: THEN COMES
>> Barack Obama: YES WE CAN.
>> Marshall Ganz: THAT WAS A
THAT WAS WHAT SORT OF RAISED
SUCH HOPES ABOUT HIS PRESIDENCY.
>> Bill Moyers: DID PEOPLE COUNT
TOO MUCH ON HIS CHARISMA AND
DIDN'T ASSESS HIS INEXPERIENCE
>> Marshall Ganz: OH, IN
RETROSPECT, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY
THERE'S PLENTY OF RESPONSIBILITY
UP TO OBAMA.
AND I THINK THAT THOSE OF US WHO
WANTED TO DO MORE ABOUT ECONOMIC
THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.
IT'S LIKE THIS IDEA THAT
CONTENTIOUSNESS IS SOMEHOW ALIEN
IS SOMEHOW WHAT DEMOCRACY IS
ABOUT AND THAT POLARIZATION IS
BAD.
ALINSKY SAYS, "ORGANIZERS HAVE
SCHIZOIDS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO
POLARIZE TO MOBILIZE AND
AND YEAH, THEN THERE'S A TIME TO
NEGOTIATE.
AND I THINK WE'RE REALLY SCREWED
>> Bill Moyers: IT'S ALWAYS BEEN
>> Marshall Ganz: THAT'S THE
HEART OF DEMOCRACY, DEMOCRACY IS
STORY?
YOU REMEMBER IN THIS CONTEXT, IN
>> Marshall Ganz: YEAH, IT WAS
BEING RECOGNITION FROM A
INDUSTRIES, A BIG LIQUOR COMPANY
WORKERS AND THE UNIONS
SPECIFYING WAGES, HOURS, WORKING
CONDITIONS AND ALL THE REST.
VERY, VERY CONCRETE OBJECTIVE.
RIGHT?
BUT THAT WAS, LIKE, THE FOCUS OF
THEIR EFFORTS SO THAT THEY COULD
GOALS OF BROADER JUSTICE AND ALL
AND SO THE WHOLE POINT ABOUT
MAKING IT HAPPEN OR NOT.
WITH THAT RIGHT NOW.
BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, JUSTICE OUT
THERE, GOODNESS IN THE WORLD
>> Bill Moyers: SUPPOSE ONE OF
"PROFESSOR GANZ, I KNOW THAT THE
FARM WORKERS WERE OUT-FINANCED
AND OUTMANNED.
OUT A SUCCESSFUL, GRASSROOTS
IS THERE ANY LESSON IN THAT?
>> Marshall Ganz: THE LESSON
WOULD BE TO LOOK AT HOW IT WAS
THEY FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO IT.
DEPTH OF MOTIVATION THEY BROUGHT
TO IT, THE CREATIVITY.
HOW DID THEY UNDERSTAND POWER?
WHAT DID THEY UNDERSTAND ABOUT
HOW DID THEY CONTINUE TO RENEW
THEIR SPIRIT THAT THEY WERE ABLE
STORYTELLING, A LOT OF THE
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IT TOOK US
BOYCOTT.
AND EVERY YEAR, YOU'RE GOING
GOT TO START AGAIN."
BUT YOU FIND IN EACH OTHER, IN
THE SOLIDARITY, IN THE MYTHS, IF
YOU WISH, THAT FEED YOU, THE
YOU SAID, ALL THE INEQUALITIES
BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITES WERE
DRIVEN BY A DEEPER INEQUALITY,
THE INEQUALITY OF POWER.
THAT SEEMS TO ME THE
THE POLITICAL INEQUALITY AND THE
ECONOMIC INEQUALITY AND A KIND
OF CULTURAL INEQUALITY THAT SORT
WE'RE TRYING TO DEAL WITH.
SOME WAYS, YOU CAN SORT OF THINK
POLITICAL RESOURCES.
IN OTHER WORDS, THAT EQUAL VOICE
WELL, WE'RE SORT OF WAY BEYOND
>> Bill Moyers: ONE MAN, ONE
VOTE, ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE HAS
>> Marshall Ganz: AND IT'S NOT
EVEN JUST THE MONEY.
COMES TO ELECTING A PRESIDENT.
IF YOU LIVE IN A SWING DISTRICT,
IF YOU LIVE IN A DISTRICT THAT'S
BEEN GERRYMANDERED SO IT'S ALL
SO WHEN YOU REALLY LOOK AT WHOSE
VOTES COUNT, IT'S A VERY, VERY
FLAWS THAT GO ALL THE WAY BACK
AS A PEOPLE, OR OUR CULTURE, OUR
BELIEFS.
OF POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS THAT
CAPACITY TO EXPRESS OUR BELIEFS.
EQUAL VOICE AMENDMENT TO
GUARANTEE THAT EACH VOTE
ACTUALLY HAD EQUAL WEIGHT.
SYSTEM THAT DID THAT, NOW, YOU
KNOW, WOULD WE GET SOMETHING
BUT I GUESS MY POINT IS, THERE
ARE A LOT OF SOURCES OF ENERGY
IT'S IN PLACES THAT MAY BE
TODAY.
ECONOMIC INEQUALITY OUT OF THE
CLOSET AND PUT IT AT THE
BREAKFAST TABLE, THE LUNCH
TABLE, THE DINNER TABLE, AND THE
BUT IT DIDN'T HANG AROUND TO
WHAT HAPPENED?
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, I THINK,
CONTRIBUTION IN THAT IT DID WHAT
YOU JUST SAID.
IT TOOK ECONOMIC INEQUALITY,
ECONOMIC JUSTICE AND MADE IT
CAN STRATEGIZE ABOUT HOW TO MOVE
YOU KNOW, I MENTIONED AT THE
ELEMENTS OF STORY, STRATEGY, AND
NARRATIVE IS THE "WHY" WE'RE
AND THEN THE STRATEGY IS HOW
WE'RE DOING IT, NOT JUST ONE
WHAT'S OUR THEORY OF HOW WE'RE
INFLUENCE THOSE SOURCES OF
POWER.
THROUGH WHICH WE'RE FIGURING ALL
YOU KNOW, PEOPLE CONFUSE
STRUCTURE WITH OPPRESSION.
AND JO FREEMAN WROTE A GREAT
PIECE, THIS --
>> Marshall Ganz: THE FEMINIST
SOCIOLOGIST, CALLED "THE TYRANNY
OF STRUCTURELESSNESS" AND I HAVE
ALL MY STUDENTS READ IT, WHERE
STRUCTURELESSNESS?
YOU'RE KIDDING YOURSELF.
ANY TIME A GROUP OF PEOPLE GET
TOGETHER, THEY'RE GOING TO
THE DIFFERENCE IS WHETHER IT'S
IT'S ACCOUNTABLE OR NOT, AND
BOARD, OR WHETHER IT'S ALL
FACTIONALIZED AND PERSONALISTIC.
AND SO YOU CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT.
STRUCTURE IS A SORT OF REJECTION
OF TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR
SELF-GOVERNANCE.
AND FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS, THE
STORY OF THE FREE MARKET HAS
BEEN THE TRIUMPHANT STORY IN
HAS A MORAL DIMENSION AND IT HAS
A POLITICAL DIMENSION AND IT HAS
AN ECONOMIC DIMENSION.
IT'S SORT OF LIKE THAT THE
MARKET MEANS WE'RE ALL FREE TO
MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES, SO ISN'T
THAT GREAT, BECAUSE WE WANT TO
BE FREE.
BASED ON PEOPLE MAKING THEIR
CHOICES.
AND ECONOMICALLY, WELL, WE ALL
BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MARKETS WORK.
AND THE PROBLEM IS, EVERY ONE OF
FLAWED, AND FUNDAMENTALLY AN ACT
THING ABOUT THE MARKET IS GOD.
BUT THE BIG QUESTION IS, WHERE'S
TO THAT.
AND I THINK THAT'S AN ENORMOUS
INTELLECTUAL CHALLENGE FOR OUR
STORY?
STORY.
BUT IT'S ALSO A NEW WAY OF
CHALLENGES AND OUR POLITICAL
CHALLENGES THAT EMPHASIZES NOT
THIS IDEA OF WHAT EACH
INDIVIDUAL COMPETES WITH, EACH
BUT THE WAYS IN WHICH WE
COOPERATE AND COLLABORATE WITH
ONE ANOTHER AS THE ANSWER.
DEVELOPMENT ECONOMIST, WROTE
THIS BOOK A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO.
"EXIT, VOICE AND LOYALTY."
SO YOU GOT AN INSTITUTION.
AND SO ONE WAY TO FIX IT IS TO
THE OTHER WAY IS YOU CAN EXIT.
THE MARKET SOLUTIONS ARE ALL
>> Marshall Ganz: WELL, SO YOU
DON'T LIKE THE WAY THE SCHOOLS
WORK, EXIT, MAKE YOUR OWN OVER
HEALTH WORKS, EXIT, OVER HERE,
MAKE YOUR OWN.
ONLY EXIT AND MAKE YOUR OWN IF
CREATE THESE PARALLEL SYSTEMS OF
KNOW, THAT FRAGMENT THE WHOLE.
THE PUBLIC GETS POORER AND
POORER AND POORER, AND YOU
CREATE ALL THESE LITTLE ISOLATED
GOLDEN GHETTOS ALL AROUND OF
PRIVILEGE.
SOLUTIONS, WHEN WE SHOULD BE
EFFECTIVE WAYS TO EXERCISE
VOICE.
HOW CAN WE HAVE MORE EFFECTIVE
PUBLIC DELIBERATION.
HOW CAN WE BRING MORE PEOPLE
HOW CAN WE CREATE THE VENUES
AND DELIBERATE WITH ONE ANOTHER.
>> Bill Moyers: CAN YOU TAKE
GOVERNMENT OVER TO THE
EDUCATIONAL LEADERS?
THIS NEW STORY OF COLLABORATION,
COOPERATION?
POLANYI'S BOOK, "THE GREAT
VALUE, YOU CAN MARKETIZE IT.
AND WHERE PRICE DOES NOT CAPTURE
VALUE YOU CANNOT MARKETIZE IT.
AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT LABOR
AND HE WAS TRYING TO EXPLAIN
SOCIAL STRUCTURES THAT CLEARED
IN EUROPE.
I MEAN, THIS IS THE CONTEXT HE
A SOLVENT THAT GROUND EVERYTHING
DOWN."
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T RESPECT
NOW, HOW DO YOU PUT A PRICE ON
HOW DO YOU PUT A PRICE ON ART,
NOW, WHEN WE PRICE THESE THINGS,
THAT'S WHY WE NEED SCHOOLS WHOSE
IT'S BASED ON A DIFFERENT SET OF
THAT IT GENERATES DOESN'T DEPEND
SO I DON'T KNOW.
BUT I THINK SOMEHOW WE NEED TO
GET INTO THIS DEBATE, WE NEED TO
GET INTO THIS ARGUMENT, AND HAVE
IT BE ABOUT SOMETHING REALLY
SUBSTANTIVE.
"OH, WE'RE TOO POLARIZED" OR
SOMETHING.
BUT POLARIZED AROUND THE RIGHT
>> Bill Moyers: IS THERE ANY
KIND OF ORGANIZING LIKE THAT
I'M PRIVILEGED TO GET TO SEE IT,
STUFF.
THE HOUSE MEETINGS, THE ONE ON
CAMPAIGN IN 2003 IN --
>> Bill Moyers: HOWARD DEAN?
>> Marshall Ganz: YEAH, 2003-04,
AND THAT CROWD THAT, YOU KNOW,
ALL THAT IN A VARIETY OF
ORGANIZING TECHNIQUES INTO
ELECTORAL POLITICS IN A WAY THAT
HAD DISAPPEARED.
IT HAD ALL BEEN MARKETING.
AND NOT THAT MARKETING'S NOT
IS REALLY A BIG ONE.
REALLY, REALLY MISSED THE BOAT
I THINK THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY
LEGISLATION.
COULD MAKE WHAT -- THE CHANGES
OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY COULD,
GROUND THAT THEY WOULD GET THE
LEGISLATION.
MOVEMENT BUILDING IS, YOU KNOW
WHAT YOU'VE GOT TO DO IS BUILD
OTHER PEOPLE, WHO ENGAGE OTHER
WAY.
IS THERE A COMMON DENOMINATOR?
>> Marshall Ganz: THERE WERE
THREE QUESTIONS POSED BY A FIRST
HILLEL, WHEN ASKED "HOW DO WE,
HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE
TO DO IN THE WORLD?"
QUESTIONS.
THE FIRST ONE'S TO ASK YOURSELF,
"IF I AM NOT FOR MYSELF, WHO
WILL BE FOR ME"?
IT'S NOT A SELFISH QUESTION, BUT
IT IS SORT OF A SELF-REGARDING
THE SECOND QUESTION IS, "IF I AM
WHICH IS, IT'S TO EVEN BE A "WHO
AND NOT A" WHAT" IS TO RECOGNIZE
AND THAT OUR CAPACITY TO REALIZE
INEXTRICABLY WRAPPED UP WITH THE
AND FINALLY, "IF NOT NOW, WHEN?"
NOW, BECAUSE IT'S OFTEN ONLY
THROUGH ACTION THAT WE CAN LEARN
WHAT WE NEED TO LEARN IN ORDER
TO BE ABLE TO ACT EFFECTIVELY IN
THE WAYS THAT WE INTEND.
QUESTIONS IS ALSO REALLY
WORK OF ORGANIZING, LEADERSHIP
IS NOT ABOUT KNOWING, IT'S ABOUT
AND IT'S ABOUT ASKING AND IT'S
ABOUT DEALING WITH THE
UNCERTAIN.
IT IS ABOUT PROBING THE UNKNOWN.
PURPOSEFUL EXPERIENCE.
HOW TO BE THAT KIND OF A LEARNER
AND TEACHER.
>> Bill Moyers: MARSHALL GANZ, I
LOOK FORWARD TO THE NEXT CHAPTER
AND IDEAS WITH ME.
>> Marshall Ganz: THANK YOU,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> Bill Moyers: "IF NOT NOW,
WHEN?"
GANZ'S LONG CAREER OF ORGANIZING
AND ACTIVISM AND PUTTING THEM TO
WITH ME ARE TWO WOMEN FROM
WHO ARE LEADING THE WAY.
MADELINE JANIS IS CO-FOUNDER AND
LAANE, THE "LOS ANGELES ALLIANCE
THE ORGANIZATION WAS CREATED
AFTER THE L.A. RIOTS OF 1992 AND
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE FROM
JOBS, THRIVING COMMUNITIES AND A
ORGANIZATIONS AND UNIONS ALL
HERE IN NEW YORK, RACHEL
LAFOREST IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
OF THE ORGANIZATION, "RIGHT TO
THE CITY."
URBAN DWELLERS, ESPECIALLY THE
PLACE WHERE THEY LIVE.
THE NEW YORK STATE MINIMUM WAGE.
WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.
>> Rachel LaForest: THANK YOU.
>> Bill Moyers: DO STORIES
MATTER AS MARSHALL GANZ SAYS
THEY DO?
>> Madeline Janis: I THINK THAT,
VERY, VERY TRUE THAT WE NEED
STORY STRATEGY, ESPECIALLY
THOSE THINGS REALLY SPEAK TO THE
IDEA OF A COMPREHENSIVE, A SMART
CAMPAIGN AS WELL AS HAVING A
GRASSROOTS BASE.
AND THINKING THROUGH SMARTLY
WHAT WE WANT TO WIN AND ALL OF
BUT I WOULD SAY THAT I THINK
YOU HAVE A STRUGGLING, YOU KNOW,
HOUSEKEEPER IN A HOTEL WHO
CLEANS 25 ROOMS IN A DAY AND CAN
BARELY PUTS FOOD ON THE TABLE.
FIGHT FOR BETTER WORKING
CONDITIONS, A UNION IN HER
HOTEL, A LIVING WAGE, THAT'S
GOING TO MOVE HER A LOT MORE
DEMOCRACY.
ALTHOUGH, WHEN SHE FINDS HER
AND IT'S OVERPOWERING WHEN SHE
STANDS UP BEFORE A CITY COUNCIL,
AND TELLS HER STORY.
SO THE THINGS COME TOGETHER, YOU
KNOW, IN A REALLY AMAZING WAY.
THAT THE STORIES PROVIDE THE
IT'S INTERESTING TO HEAR HIM
TALK ABOUT STORIES AND MYTHS AND
ORGANIZATIONS BUILD THEIR WORK
OFF OF THE IDEA THAT TELLING THE
STORY IS WHAT MAKES ALIVE, AND
AND SO, YOUR VALUES ARE CONVEYED
THROUGH THE STORY THAT YOU TELL.
AND WE SEE IT IN RELIGIOUS TEXTS
THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, LESSONS
THAT THEY EXPRESS THEIR VALUES
AND WHAT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO
ORGANIZING THAT HAPPENS ON THE
AND THE MATERIAL CONDITIONS THAT
THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.
OTHER.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT REALLY
COLLECTIVE VOICE OF A COMMUNITY,
AND BEING ABLE TO PUT UP FRONT
>> Bill Moyers: SO, GIVE ME AN
EXAMPLE.
>> RIGHT TO THE CITY HAS A
NATIONAL CAMPAIGN AROUND
AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR ALL
CAMPAIGNS.
AND WE COULD INUNDATE, YOU KNOW,
ARE ON WAITING LISTS FOR
MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
OVER THE LAST FIVE, SIX YEARS.
FIGURES, WHICH I COULD READ OVER
MY COFFEE IN THE NEWSPAPER AND
SAY THIS IS HORRIBLE, BUT RATHER
INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE LIVING
THROUGH THESE EXPERIENCES.
ATLANTA WHO IS CONNECTED TO AN
ORGANIZATION, OCCUPY OUR HOMES
HOUSING IN THE CITY OF ATLANTA
TO STAY.
SO TELLING HIS STORY PUTS AN
ALLOWS PEOPLE TO SEE HIM, TO SEE
PROVIDENCE, RHODE ISLAND, WHO IS
SO ONE OF THE CHOICES SHE HAS TO
SHE CAN SEND HER KIDS TO SCHOOL,
IS ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
THOUGHTFUL, AND WE HAVE TO
RECOGNIZE THAT IT'S A LONG HAUL.
SO WE HAVE TO ORGANIZE, THAT'S
WE HAVE TO HAVE THE HOUSEKEEPER,
WE HAVE TO HAVE THAT VETERAN, WE
HAVE TO HAVE THOSE PEOPLE COMING
TOGETHER AND ORGANIZING.
BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO HAVE THE
TO HAVE A WAY THAT'S SMART AND
CONTROL OF OUR GOVERNMENT, WHICH
AND THEN WE HAVE TO PUT THAT ALL
>> YOU RECENTLY WON A CAMPAIGN
WORKERS IN LONG BEACH.
$13 AN HOUR.
HOW DID YOU DO IT?
LARGEST CITY IN L.A. COUNTY.
AND WE ORGANIZED FOR TWO YEARS
IN THAT CITY TO WIN A LIVING
A LIVING WAGE AND FIVE PAID SICK
WE DECIDED WE WERE GOING TO DO
SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY THERE.
BUT WE DECIDED TO ORGANIZE SMALL
>> WHY SMALL BUSINESSES?
PROFIT MARGIN.
>> I KNOW, THAT'S WHAT YOU WOULD
THINK.
PEOPLE RECOGNIZED THAT THE HOTEL
WORKERS THAT LIVE IN LONG BEACH,
AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM,
DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO SPEND
THEY'RE NOT MAKING ENOUGH MONEY.
AND THESE HOTELS HAVE BEEN
BENEFICIARIES OF BIG SUBSIDIES
ABLE TO PAY A LIVING WAGE TO
THEIR WORKERS.
SO OUR ARGUMENT WAS, AND THE
ARGUMENT THEMSELVES.
WE WANT THESE HOTEL WORKERS TO
BE ABLE TO BUY OUR CLOTHES AND
SO WE HAVE "BUY LOCAL" SIGNS
AND THEN THE MOST INCREDIBLE
THING WAS, WE WON BY 63%, AND WE
THOUGHT WAS WRONG.
LAND STORY OR SOMETHING.
PARTY FOR CONGRESS, AND YES ON
THE LIVING WAGE, ALL ON THE SAME
THAT'S BECAUSE THE IDEA OF A
THEIR NEIGHBORS, TO BE ABLE TO
RESONATED.
>> WITH REPUBLICANS.
>> WITH REPUBLICANS.
VOTING FOR ROMNEY?
ENERGIZED ABOUT WINNING.
THEN JANUARY 1st, PEOPLE GOT
ENORMOUS RAISES AND GOT PAID
>> WE CALLED IT A STATE OF THE
AND WE HAD HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE.
OFFICE, EVERY PERSON CURRENTLY
AND WE WERE ABLE TO ARTICULATE
THE THINGS THAT REGULAR PEOPLE
SAID, WOW, 63% OF THE PEOPLE ARE
WITH US.
>> I READ THAT YOU DID A STORY
BASED STRATEGY WITH HOMEOWNERS
DOING IT IN 11 CITIES.
>> SO THERE IS ACTUALLY THIS
AND THEIR PREMISE IS EXACTLY
WHAT MARSHALL DESCRIBES, IS THAT
MEANING.
NOT NECESSARILY THROUGH FACTS,
BUT GIVING MEANING TO A SET OF
STORY.
CAMPAIGN AROUND HOUSING THAT
HOMEOWNERS FACING FORECLOSURE,
HOMELESS FAMILIES AND HOMELESS
HOUSING RESIDENTS, FOR THE FIRST
TIME REALLY COMING TOGETHER TO
TALK ABOUT HOW EACH OF THEIR
STORIES INFLUENCES EACH OTHER.
AND WHAT EACH OF THEIR STRUGGLES
INTERCONNECTEDNESS AND HOW
THERE'S INFLUENCE.
SO WE BROUGHT THEM THROUGH A
TRAINING WITH THE CENTER FOR
STORY BASED STRATEGY TO REALLY
NARRATIVE IS AROUND HOUSING IN
>> WHAT IS IT?
BEEN THAT YOUR TICKET TO THE
AMERICAN DREAM, OR DEMONSTRATING
THAT YOU'VE ARRIVED WITHIN THE
AND THAT OWNING A HOME MEANT
YOU ARE NOW A PART OF THE FABRIC
OF THIS COUNTRY.
SO WHAT DID THAT MEAN FOR PEOPLE
WHO WERE HOMELESS, RENTERS, PART
OF PUBLIC HOUSING?
IT CREATED A HUGE CHASM.
WE'RE CHALLENGING THE ASSUMPTION
FOR PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE IN
>> MADELINE, I DON'T KNOW ANYONE
GIVE ME THE HEADLINE OF A FEW OF
HUGE VICTORY AROUND COMPLETELY
RESTRUCTURING OUR TRASH, THE WAY
OUR TRASH IS DEALT WITH.
THE WAY WE DEAL WITH OUR TRASH
IN THIS COUNTRY IS AN OUTRAGE,
SANITATION WORKERS, PEOPLE WHO
THE LANDFALLS.
LONG STORY SHORT, CITY OF L.A.
IS GOING TO BE OPENING A NEW
CITY IS GOING TO BE DIVIDED INTO
REGIONS IS GOING TO HAVE
AMAZINGLY GREAT LABOR STANDARDS,
PROGRAM AT THE PORT OF LOS
ANGELES.
TRUCKS, YOU'LL HAVE TO PHASE
THEM OUT AND YOU'RE GOING TO
THE WAY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO
DEAL WITH US DIRECTLY.
THIS IS NOT JUST SOME OPEN
MARKET SYSTEM.
WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO EXERCISE
CONTROL.
NOW, THAT VICTORY HAS RESULTED
FROM THE PORT.
DRIVING THOSE TRUCKS, WHO ARE --
IS THEY WERE ALL MISCLASSIFIED
IT IS A VERY ABUSIVE INDUSTRY.
THAT AROUND.
AND TO NEGOTIATE REAL DECENT
CONTRACTS.
WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS
IMAGINE A NEW ECONOMY FOR ALL,
AND REALLY GET INVOLVED IN OUR
THAT STRIGS.
>> SURE.
AND A DECENT LIFE.
AND THAT OUR GOVERNMENT, OUR
DEMOCRACY HAS THE TOOLS TO
ENSURE THAT.
AND THAT RESPONSIBLE COMPANIES
AND COMPANIES THAT ARE WILLING
COMMUNITIES, AND BALANCE THEIR
INTERESTS.
WE WANT THEM TO DO WELL.
BUT WITH THE COMMUNITY
AND WE'LL HAVE GREATER
PROSPERITY FOR EVERYONE.
>> I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE
PUSH FOR A NEW ECONOMY IS ALSO
AROUND INNOVATION.
SO MARSHALL GANZ HAD MENTIONED
THIS DOMINANT NARRATIVE THAT THE
FREE MARKET SOLVES ALL PROBLEMS.
I THINK A NEW ECONOMY ACTUALLY
WE ALL HAVE, THAT THE MARKET HAS
THE ANSWERS.
WORLD, AND EVEN PLACES HERE IN
COOPERATIVE LABOR BANKS,
COOPERATIVE HOUSING SYSTEMS,
TO, WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES, TO
BEEN SWAYED.
WE BELIEVE IN WINNING.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO WIN OUR WHOLE
WE'RE GOING TO MOVE STEP BY STEP
AND HOPEFULLY CONVERT A LOT OF
GOOD BUSINESSES ALONG THE WAY TO
BE PARTNERS.
>> AND CHANGE THE CULTURE.
SET A PRECEDENT.
SEVERAL YEARS HAVE REALLY BEEN
WORKING ON CONSOLIDATING A
WE'VE BEEN LOOKING AT FANNIE MAE
AND FREDDIE MAC, ESSENTIALLY A
OF THE MORTGAGES IN THIS
COUNTRY, AND HAVE SEEN MANY,
MANY PROPERTIES TAKEN AND GO
AND SO AT PINNACLE OF THIS FIGHT
AROUND THE FORECLOSURE CRISIS,
THERE'S BEEN A REAL BATTLE
HOME TO ITS CURRENT MARKET
VALUE, AS OPPOSED TO EXPECTING
THE HOMEOWNER TO PAY WHAT IT WAS
WHEN THEY TOOK OUT THEIR
PEOPLE TO STAY IN THEIR HOMES.
SO WE'VE GOT ED DEMARCO, WHO HAS
REFUSED TO CONSIDER LOOKING AT
PRINCIPAL REDUCTION OR THE
AND THE WIN HAS BEEN OBAMA
ANNOUNCED THAT HE'S GOING TO
>> YOU'VE BEEN FIGHTING TO GET
>> FOR YEARS WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING
TARGETING HIM FROM FIVE OR SIX
YEARS AGO.
THE FORECLOSURE CRISIS HIT THE
FOREFRONT OF THE HEADLINES, THAT
IT PULLED IN NEW LOCAL AND
NATIONAL ENTITIES INTO THE
FIGHT.
THE KIND OF PERSON THAT NEEDS TO
BE RUNNING THE FEDERAL HOUSING
AND IT TOOK YEARS.
AND LOTS OF HARD ORGANIZING.
>> PEOPLE'S STORIES.
PEOPLE'S JOYS AND INSPIRATIONS
IN SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS.
THEY LEAD A SMALL ORGANIZATION
THERE, GOT AN ORDINANCE PASSED
HOLDER THAT IS ABLE TO FORECLOSE
A FAMILY OUT OF THEIR HOME HAS
PEOPLE'S SPIRITS ARE NOT KILLED.
BENEFIT AGREEMENT WITH THE
UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN
CALIFORNIA WHO WANTS TO EXPAND
OUT AND BUILD STUDENT HOUSING,
MILLION IN CREATING AFFORDABLE
HOUSING ALONG WITH THE STUDENT
HOUSING, AND A GUARANTEED TO
SO THOSE SMALL VICTORIES
AGGREGATE TO THIS LARGER, SORT
OF BEATING HEART, AND PEOPLE
OTHER.
BUT IT TAKES WORK.
SO IT'S TO BRING THOSE
ORGANIZATIONS TOGETHER, AS OFTEN
AS POSSIBLE, TO TALK ABOUT THOSE
VICTORIES AND THE MODELS AND THE
RECIPROCAL INSPIRATION HAPPENING
>> I'LL GIVE BOTH OF YOU THE
LAST WORD, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE
PEOPLE DO?
>> THERE ARE GREAT ORGANIZATIONS
IN EVERY PART OF THIS COUNTRY.
AND PROBABLY NOT WELL KNOWN.
SO PEOPLE CAN BE INVOLVED IN
MULTIPLE WAYS.
CAMPAIGN, OR A CAMPAIGN THAT'S
ENVIRONMENTAL, OR BUILDING
SUSTAINABLE COMMUNITIES AND GOOD
THERE ARE -- YOU CAN BE INVOLVED
WHO ARE CONNECTING TO GROUPS
LADY FOR ECONOMIC JUSTICE.
IN CALIFORNIA, THERE ARE
CHAPTERS ALL OVER.
COMMITTEE.
BE INVOLVED IN YOUR UNION.
CO-WORKERS BECOME INVOLVED AND
THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO BECOME
AND YOU JUST HAVE YOUR PICK OF
AND I WOULD SAY ALSO, CONTRIBUTE
YOUR OWN PERSONAL MONEY, YOU
KNOW, $50 HERE, $100 THERE, FROM
EVEN SMALLER AND MORE MANAGEABLE
THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO.
EDUCATE YOUR FAMILY.
REALLY BE OPEN TO LEARNING ABOUT
WHAT IS THE VEHICLE FOR YOUR
BE OPEN TO TALKING TO YOUR
CHILDREN AROUND -- ABOUT
IMMIGRATION.
MEANS.
WHAT THE FIGHT LOOKS LIKE TO
MAKE SURE THEY'RE ABLE TO BE
ABOUT HOUSING.
HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUR
COMMUNITY AND YOUR FAMILY.
VOLUNTEER YOUR TIME.
BUT SO MUCH OF IT CAN START WITH
UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE POLITICAL
CURRENT IS, WHAT THE POLITICAL
CAN BE ENGAGED IS HUGE IN AND OF
YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
BILLMOYERS.COM, THEY TELL US HOW
THEIR LIFE STORIES LED THEM TO
THE FIGHT FOR EQUALITY AND
DEMOCRACY.
SO DO THREE OF MARSHALL GANZ'S
STUDENTS AT HARVARD, AND A
>>> I'LL SEE YOU THERE, AND I'LL
SEE YOU HERE, NEXT TIME.
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