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welcome back to the david packard for joining me apart two previous guests on
the show
first we have former navy chaplain gordon james klensch made his website is
pray in jesus name dot org we also have wayne best in executive director
approved wins out you can find out more truth wins out dot for it
now i think the kind of set the stage uh...
chaplin you but on the program a number of times discussed what you believe to
be
legitimate ways of getting rid of the sin of homosexuality something that you
believed to be a choice people make
way numerous times you've indicated that you believe so-called repaired therapies
and and quitting homosexuality or patently absurd and and scientifically
of baseless let's start
with uh... with the kaplan uh... that's happened please give us a sense of your
view of this idea of
when someone becomes a or chooses to be homosexual and the ways that someone
might be able to rid themselves of that lifestyle perfect
char well i'm a chapel of orson
according minister can if possible who believes in the bible and believes in
jesus christ
and it says in first john one and that if we will confess our sins
at a state bowling justin he will pretty much but you also cleanse us
from all of the righteousness so there are
any number of sins for example in my own life at one time i was filled with uh...
jealousy or uh... alcoholism or different
character flaws that i had in my life in through personal repentance
etc healing when jesus moves into our hearts and
becomes our lord and savior's he is able to save us from and forgive us of any of
number of sins
uh... perhaps the least of which is homosexuality i don't think that's the
worst sin by any means okay but logistically before i get wayne before i
give women a chance to answer logistically that can be done through i
mean you've talked about doing day lesbian excesses and you believe that
that is with genocide
when opposing a chaplain i had a list
insecure that she was very sincere she wanted to get rid of this personal flaw
in her own life and we prayed and she gave her life to jesus christ in when
the holy spirit moved into her
and she gave permission we were able to command the devil to depart from her and
there was an exercise in
after which she received healing anchee began dating members of the opposite sex
so there was complete repentance complete healing an arrest
and forgiveness of sin in jesus christ main give us a sense of do you think
that these these excesses of their valid first of on what's your reaction to what
did happen this time
well first i like this one a cited those were
tells u bt find just the way are you cannot railway ticket but i think he's
talking about
is sir
in people who go through individuals like that come to me after work to pick
up the pieces of the shattered lives
they're not healed their harmed by such
uh... deluded certain state this isn't christianity is in some kind of cole
white czar
uh... notion that has nothing to do with religion but has something to uh...
radicalism and extremism there unfortunately
or units pleaded comes to people like me after the damage is done in subscripts
used to live people sell you let the market the and say you know
fine you're ok and uh... it just breaks my heart to see how many people damaged
in in of religion
uh... crackpot
programs like this before i give of course i will give the kaplan the
opportunity to respond but specifically
what do you think is happening wayne when the chaplain cites the story of
this lesbian who
after reacts racism uh... claims to no longer being a lesbian with the way how
do you respond to that
well clearly this lesbian
lead
and we want to believe there is something belong with their that she was
broken when in fact there is nothing wrong with her and
i think when you have will result in at the sexism is in
deeper shane your instilling deeper shaming me who somebody feels so
horrible about themselves that possibly
jesus placards of the launcher this lesbian will come back at the closet
she's not already and she will condemn that action is incredibly damaging to
her psyche
and and if she survives it means the times
some people still inside because they feel so horrible about themselves the
best thing people to do is just accept themselves that they are
come out of the boston with a healthy rich is the feeling wise
without all this kind of religious fundamentalist baggage that states
damages so many people
kaplan gotta go ahead
char well on
there is forgiveness of sins in jesus christ it's a removal of the shame that
was already there before i ever met
and she feels uh... lifted when she when the tears came down her face she felt
elevated and full of joy and love toward god product
for the first time in her life so there's hope and healing
not only that but there are scientific studies that prove that repaired if
therapy or
uh... which i don't practice by the way i'm not
the psychologist
the the scientific studies for example by robert spitzer confirm quit
uh... for about a little hole *** orientation will in some individuals
responsibilty that he had a over two hundred respondents in both genders a
hundred forty three males and fifty seven females who report changes from
homosexual to heterosexual orientation lasting five years or more
so there is hope and there is healing in these studies and uh... under the
teaching of doctor joseph nicolosi who's a respected psychologist reforms of the
north organization there is an entire padre of psychologist i just talked to
one david pickup in california who reports a sixty to seventy percent
healing rate for people who come to him to get rid of the shame in their lives
and their converted from homosexual data heterosexuality
by other means most often they just come through faith in jesus christ i have a
list of uh... marsh and lots of and we've gotten quite a list from you
already kaplan but i want to give my investments has to respond to at least
that means that for the first two individuals you mention
i'll come on chat making it so easy for me here
revised doctor robert spitzer akitas can add a few weeks ago when renounces
studyin said it was bogus in fact i personally went to this house in
princeton new jersey interviewed and he told me to tell people like you to stop
using his study we have a video of him telling people like you to stop using my
study
yet you're using his study i'll be happy to send you that seat no longer to store
his work are from a doctor nicolosi went to a strip mall collagen is completely
discredited he's somebody who believes for example that uh... straight people
can become get they suffer defeat or failure
he's somebody up who believes she should take people as i was three years old
into repaired therapy now this is somebody who is really discredited and
uh... every respected medical mental health organization says attempts to
change *** orientation are horrible
the american psychiatric association even says it intends to change the media
inside a
under pressure and self-destructive behavior
is that certainly not the kind of uh... results remark
their mental health and that's exactly what you're promoting
and i i i i can't imagine that you know i'm the david pickup we get to see a
single success story for mister picked up
it seems all he wants to do is marketeers products and sell you know
there's a lot workout they and other products but it certainly hasn't shown
any success to anybody so far
also then his results are laughable that's anti-fraud i mean gordon i want i
want to go to you and ask you as a former navy chaplain is somebody who has
performed these gaps for citizens
could you take anybody could you take away invests in and performing arts this
is an worth he would no longer be gays that within your purview
well win would have to repent and he would have to consents
it's an act of his free will two contracts with the devil
and it can also be enacted as free will
to renounce the devil unnecessary simple exercise that i meet people and when
they want a lecture says that when they come to me for help ice a uh... pray
with me and repeat these words father in heaven irene ounce my sins and demons
by inviting holiness in the holy spirit
in if we would be willing to do that then certainly he could find hope and
healing been talking to the former chaplain here
what do you think really is the net effect of these kinds of excesses of the
declined to do
i think they're incredibly devastating people what it does seem reinforces
shane a lot of algae bt people grow up and very conservative backgrounds are
told that they're sexually broken
that there's something wrong with them from the time they can remember from
from childhood innovating field aspect and one of the low we want to be
accepted in society by their friends and family members and they have somebody
like this makes a false promise
internals false
and promises the carrot of an extra system it's realistic that doesn't
meeting psychological parties fees for these excesses of the legal in your
opinion
tired cleaning up the masses of people like this refuses to inquire prescribe
finite years and indeed come to me later on
women their lower than in instilling because it broken down psychologically
and then one becomes whole began
by coming out of class
and we're speaking to a helping people
liberty fulfilling lives like this but it's so sad that they have to go
themselves our ancestors
industrialist dysfunctional mean-spirited uh... psychological
religious views before they're able to come out a very unhealthy
chaplain last his seconds we have here do you believe that kilburn as young as
three should be subjected to so-called repaired if therapy i know you don't do
it but do you believe that that they should be subjected to
well it's a free country everyone should be a lot of parents should be allowed to
bring their children
for therapy but just to counter what wayne said other our psychological
studies just last week apart rigorous came out in the journal of social
science research in wrote that s uh... the pet the children of parents who have
at some point in their life
at the same sex partner were more likely to be on welfare have a history of
depression less education and reported history of *** abuse this is a
professional psychological study just like the spencer study which was never
countered with new research it was just politically
uh... repented of us posed by mr spitzer
use scientific studies
as you know more than a doctor spitzer based on its children and christians
charter rescue those children whenever possible okay
uh... i think we're gonna have to leave it there we've been speaking with former
navy chaplain gordon james clinician at the website is praying jesus name dot
org
and wayne bassinet executive director of truth wins out the website is truth wins
out dot org i have a sense that we're not going to be a table to agree on too
much here other than
we've just spent the last few minutes talking to each other but i thank you
both for participating event i hope we don't agree if that's the case i need to
go to a shrinking get help
culkin will take a break the and then after the war make political pressure
since the day
on the data package plenty to me