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During the spring-summer of 2011, as a result of the 15M movement, a group of people who met in Sol
decided to carry out a series of interviews to amplify the voices that came out of Sol.
They did it through three questions...
What does the 15M movement mean to you?
The 15M movement is extremely interesting, and also necessary.
You talk about real democracy but there's something I'd like to point out:
I think this movement makes sense
within a complete democratic system such as the Spanish one.
But since it's a complete democratic system,
of course democracy does not just mean voting certain years
but a continuous control over the activities of politicans and of those
who really, if they are elected, it is by us
and therefore owe themselves to us and to the people.
I have to say that I, a long time ago, when I was very young,
took part in the foundation of the democratic students union,
in Franco's time and therefore I had to fight hard
to obtain a democratic system.
Therefore I believe that the party system
is an absolutely necessary system.
But these movements are the ones that can give,
or complete, the real content
of democracy, in a sense of control.
I completely agree with some of the slogans and basic principles
of this movement, for example,
controlling corruption. It's completely outrageous
that people who are being legally prosecuted get elected,
people about whose corruption casts serious doubts... not doubts
serious facts about their corruption, and therefore that is essential.
I also completely agree with a reform of the electoral law
to achieve a more real representation of all political options.
And there are many more issues, but I'd rather answer it in the third question
But I would like to make this clear: the democratic system exists,
real democracy is that besides political parties and those that we have chosen
just because we chose them, those of us who vote, can have constant control over them.
And in that sense I absolutely support the movement and think it's vital.
What proposal would you take to the General Assembly?
The specific proposals, that is what I think is most important,
because after this movement, popular explosion, which was very necessary
not just here but in the rest of Europe, now all this has to be channeled.
I think it is essential that for example city councils
hold real assemblies, with participants inside the city council etc.
where all the members of this movement can also express their ideas.
Real control over city council, since they are the ones closest to the citizens.
Also very fluid communication with the whole university movement,
which I believe is non-existent, or very small.
I think it's vital that universities take part in all of these movements.
We should recall that university movements were essential in the downfall of the dictatorship.
Now it's not about the downfall of democracy, it's something else, but the union with
all university movements and its full integration in these movements is essential.
As well as all professional associations, lawyers etc.
that agree with this movement because reactions,
certain behaviors will requiere all kinds of counseling, legal and others,
and therefore that is essential.
So, neighborhood assemblies, participation in city councils, putting forward
popular legislative initiatives with the support needed for them to pass.
And then there's something else that I absolutely disagree on with
the movement or with part of it, and that's not voting.
I think voting is vital, and after voting keeping control
of those who have been voted through the basic principles of this movement
with which I say I completely agree.
But I think voting is essential because the democratic system
is made up of parties, and it is the best system there is,
not to say there couldn't be others, maybe, but for now it's the best one.
And certainly one political option is not the same as another one
to defend these principles.
And I also think that besides unemployment, the problem with housing,
with land use legislation, with empty houses etc.
it's vital that these movements lobby to solve, or at least to
mitigate all this lack of housing.
But also in other issues, such as social issues for example.
I think that if there were now a regression on social issues such as
the same-sex marriage law, these movements should also join
the gay associations and prevent this from happening.
So now is when I think this movement's real action
begins, which I find very fortunate
and which I say once more, leads to real democracy, but not because
it's a different democracy, but because it's the same one, just the way it should be.
So it should be a democracy based on parties, in my opinion
everyone is completely free to vote, or to abstain, or to cast a blank vote, obviously,
like in every democratic system, but once that is done, those who have voted
be able to have constant control over the acts of politicians especially
on vital issues such as corruption, using funds to line
their own pockets, or for huge salaries instead of
for educartion, healthcare and many other necessities.
That is what I believe, in a sort of improvised way.
What makes you feel outraged?
I'm mainly outraged by the subject of corruption, of course.
Outraged because of corrupt politicians that
run for election, and that then there are party leaders, some of them
who aspire to become president, protecting them. Corruption exists
in all parties, but right now exactly more in one,
more in one than in others. But well, it exists in general. This issue is essential.
Also the subject of the European Union, for exmaple, the salaries and the
retirement pensions they have, which they continue receiving afterwards
for life, huge sums. The subject of market regulation, but
taking into account, because we cannot be utopian either,
that, perhaps unfortunately, but we live in a market economy and the
market's hunger is not going to go away. The onely thing we can do is to be alert
to report any misdoings, the solution is much more
complicated. But then there are many more issues
such as housing, hiring policies and all that, and I think
these movements should have a very fluid, and very critical relationship
with trade unions themselves. I don't think we should leave out
the unions, or even some parties or members of those parties,
who really want to hear these voices too, and who
could aslo take this voices to the Parliament. I think all of that is essential.
I support the movement, but always respecting
that we live in a democratic system, that this is not what it was
before with Franco's dictatorship, the fight of young people was very different from this one.
And then participation in assemblies, in city council meetings,
assemblies in every neighborhood, coordination and communication
with all university movements, I mean, getting universities involved
in all these movements, and many professional associations,
mostly progressive ones, that can also contribute to
drafting new legislation, and to presenting popular
initiatives through the movement in the Parliament itself.
I think the message would be that we have to keep moving forward,
that the utopian spirit should not be lost, but, whenever possible,
to combine utopia with effective measures and with really effective
support that can help reach the goals with which I agree on, for the most part
if not with all of them: fighting corruption,
this out of control capitalism; but also knowing that jobs are,
on one hand, the government's duty through certain politics,
but on the other we have to see that there are also many times
in which certain businesses are supported, but that does not
mean that businessmen, instead of creating jobs or hiring people
on a 1000 Euro salary, use those policies to make more money,
not to create jobs.
All of these things are very complicated
but they should, at least, be denounced by this movement.