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Hello.
Welcome to another candidates’ debate at protagon.gr.
My name is George Karelias
and joining us today
are Mr. Petros Efthymiou from PASOK.
Good evening to our viewers.
Good evening.
And Mr. Aris Spiliotopoulos from N.D. Hello Mr. Spiliotopoulos.
Hello
Both Mr. Spiliotopoulos
and Mr. Efthymiou are nominees in the second district.
We must say that now that everyone is chasing votes.
I will try to ask common questions so that people who are watching us
will be able to compare and make a safer conclusion.
Mr. Efthymiou, 2 months ago in March,
you commented in a meeting of you party under Papandreou’s presence,
that it is absurd to say that PASOK has saved the country
because at the same time it crushed the Greek society.
Do you still say that to the people you want to vote for you?
Mr. Papandreou gave a speech explaining
how PASOK had saved Greece
from an inherited bankruptcy.
What I specifically said after the end of his speech
was that this is half the truth.
Indeed, the country was saved from bankruptcy
thanks to the interventions of PASOK
that also crushed the Greek society.
So we need to say the rest of the truth to the people.
That is what I said then, and I still do.
I wouldn’t be running as a nominee if PASOK kept acting the same way.
But PASOK has changed twice.
It has changed both its policy and its rhythm.
What we want to present to the Greek citizens
is basically a national program for exiting the crisis.
A well thought program,
with every word or every euro justified.
That is if people want to give PASOK the chance to be the winning party
and seal all future developments.
We all believe that we can exceed the loan dependency
and its restrictions in 2015.
That’s why I can look at you and Greek citizens in the eyes.
Because self-criticism is true when it is based on a change of policy
and a renewal of political bodies.
Mr. Spiliotopoulos,
you were a minister under Karamanlis governments.
I often hear some of your former colleagues in the ministerial council,
Mr. Kammenos,
Mr. Markopoulos for example,
say that the two big political parties,
including the one they used to be members of,
have destroyed the country.
You obviously disagree with that.
But who should your voters believe?
Your former colleagues or you?
Mr. Karelias,
if I thought that N.D. had destroyed the country,
I obviously wouldn’t be a nominee of N.D.
I would also have an existential problem.
Because if I had participated in N.D. governments
and believed that it had destroyed the country
then I would have a huge existential problem.
Therefore you should address the question to those whose party
and participation led to the destruction of the country.
How is it possible to run again as nominees?
Moving to a new political party
doesn’t mean release from your responsibilities,
nor does a flexible conscience atone for your past sins.
Especially in politics we need to be taught by the mistakes of the past
and become wiser.
My feeling is that since 1974 both PASOK
and N.D. have offered a great deal in the country.
There are obviously certain responsibilities
that burden mostly PASOK.
We had been building the wrong model based on the use of loans
for consumption and not for investments.
And I mean both the increase of public expenses
and the overcharge of households.
So if one produces less
and consumes borrowed money,
then the rhythm of the economy was false.
It was based on the loans.
This bubble eventually burst in the financial crisis of 2008.
Since then all the handlings of Papandreou’s government
have proved destructive.
I see you both admit your own shortcomings.
Which is a good thing.
If the results of the elections are the ones predicted,
if no party can form a majority government,
which is the government you think that the country will have?
Mr. Efthymiou?
The picture I have is a picture of great fluidity.
The greatest fluidity since the return to democracy.
There are two important indications.
The first one is the daily increase of the number of citizens that will vote.
Let’s not forget that the indecisive is still an issue.
Based on common perception,
the second is that the majority of the indecisive comes from PASOK.
So I believe that this is the week of actual decisions.
The future government will be the result of what people
will decide on the 6th of May.
I think that people’s decision will result in a strong PASOK.
If this is the case,
then we will try to create the strongest cooperative government possible.
With a wide range of forces.
Other forces, beyond PASOK and N.D.,
which believe that Greece should remain in the EU.
If the scenario is different and N.D. is the winning party,
it is not at all likely that we will cooperate with it
or agree with Samaras on its basic goal
to become a single party government
on the condition that he has to be the prime minister.
Mr. Spiliotopoulos?
What is your prediction for the day after the elections?
Greeks always vote with their heart.
We express our feelings.
It is the first time that we need to vote based on how the country
will be the day after the elections
and not according to whom we want to denounce.
For the first time we need to vote based on our mind, our sense.
We must keep in mind our country’s benefit,
our family’s benefit,
the new generation’s benefit.
If we use our mind,
we will realize that it is critical to vote for the European perspective,
to remain in the Eurozone.
If we have to decide euro or drachmas,
then the absolute majority has to support
the euro currency for the sake of our country,
the households,
the security,
the perspective and the safety we need.
If this is the case,
a serious choice would be the European forces.
PASOK has already been tested.
It led the country to the recession,
it created an even more serious one and it cannot get the country out of it.
So trusting N.D. appears to be a one way road.
As for the possibility of N.D. not getting a strong majority,
I don’t want to comment on the scenario.
Because, according to the main article in Vima newspaper,
these are dumb scenarios.
It is said that the winning party will obviously have a parliament majority.
The scenarios about cooperation are addressed to the second
and the third party that are already aware of their defeat
and try to intervene in any development.
If N.D. doesn’t get the majority needed,
which is very likely to happen according to the predictions,
what do you think about forming a government with the other right parties?
With Mr. Kammenos, Mrs Bakoyanni,
Mr. Karatzaferis
and Mr. Manos,
or any of those will make it to the parliament?
I believe that this is a realistic scenario.
No, it is not.
All these forces cannot be united.
Because there is a basic dilemma in these elections:
euro or drachma.
So there are some forces that believe
in the obligations of the country and its stay in the Eurozone,
believe in the euro and its benefits for the households.
Some other forces silently support
the exit of the country from the Eurozone
and the euro currency.
Therefore we cannot say that there can be such cooperation among the right parties.
Because although these parties come from the political centrist-right,
not all of them support the country’s European perspective
and euro currency.
We are the party, as inheritors of Konstantinos Karamanlis
that introduced Greece in Europe. N.D.
could never cooperate with forces that want Greece out of Europe,
even if they originate from our party,
although more conservative.
I see that you don’t want to cooperate with PASOK,
you find it difficult to cooperate with the smaller right parties.
Let’s see what the solution will be.
Mr. Efthymiou, what do you think about supporting a left government,
if the votes are enough, like the one Mr. Tsipras has described?
These elections are definitely historic.
During the political history of the country,
some words have been overused.
It has often been said that elections are critical,
historic but it was rarely true.
Like the fairytale with the wolf and the shepherd.
The parties have presented the wolf to the sheep so many times.
The EU intervened but no critical danger was really threatening us.
But this time the wolf is here.
This Sunday’s decision holds the destiny of the Greeks.
Who will govern Mr. Efthymiou?
The important issue is who will govern.
I wouldn’t be here to defend PASOK’s suggestion,
if PASOK suggested that the country will be saved
by the memorandum
or that the country will get out of the crisis with the help of the memorandum.
We say that the memorandum
is the safety mechanism of the country against bankruptcy.
We are walking on a narrow road and the only safe lane,
protecting the national vehicle from the abyss,
is the loan agreement.
It is like the blood that keeps a patient alive in the Intensive Care.
If we stop the supplies,
either the patient dies or a miracle takes place.
Which government will apply this loan agreement?
All those coming from different,
almost conflicting political fields,
who believe that Greece will denounce the loan agreement
but the Europeans will continue to serve it.
That we will refuse to pay but they will keep giving us money.
In case they take over the country,
they will need to find 96,5 billion by June for the banks,
the insurance allowances and the state.
So they actually suggest abandoning the safe road and jumping into the abyss,
but the gravity law won’t apply in our case.
Those who believe in such a solution should know that on the 14th of May,
the prime minister of such a government
will have to present himself in the Eurogroup
and talk about these exact decisions.
On the 20th of May, this prime minister
will go to the general NATO summit in Chicago in order to defend the country
in not allowing Skopia in NATO.
So, this is a very important decision for the country’s future course.
I believe that outside the safety lane,
the country will fall in the abyss.
So deep that I don’t even dare to think about the consequences.
If the two big parties don’t manage to form a government.
For objective reasons,
if you don’t get the 50% Venizelos has talked about.
Do you consider possible the creation of a government with Papadimos
as the prime minister or any other technocrat?
Mr. Spiliotopoulos?
Excuse me, Mr. Spiliotopoulos.
I just want to make one comment.
Why would a majority opposing to this direction ask from Papadimos to govern?
In democracy,
what the majority decides has to be applied.
The political leaders that convince Greek citizens are the ones that
have to form a government
and implement their different solutions.
Mr. Spiliotopoulos,
do you consider a Papadimos government likely to be formed
if the two parties can’t agree?
Because many things have been said in a coded way,
please allow me to refer to three points.
Firstly,
when we talk about the rest of the forces,
we have to realize that we are talking about small forces
that won’t be asked to form a government.
So their members,
without any cost,
without anyone ever checking their credibility
or the consistency of their words and actions,
may promise everything to everybody.
Because their goal is to enter in the parliament
or increase their low percentage.
So they say anything with no consequences in their chase of votes.
Only the big political forces deal with consequences.
Because the country will be governed
by these forces after the elections.
We are discussing about the possibility
of not forming a government.
What will happen then?
Secondly,
in order to be absolutely sure that t
here will be a government,
we need to give the strong parliamentary majority
to one of the two parties with a European solution.
A European solution that includes the country’s stay in the EU,
the euro currency and the European perspective.
This should be the people’s choice.
We suggest a series of specific measures
that are strongly opposed to those suggested by PASOK.
Because as a socialist party, PASOK has its own philosophy
about the financial policies,
the growth of the state or the public services.
We suggest privatizations,
the merge of some organizations,
the use of the state’s property.
Greeks have to support one of these two suggestions.
They don’t seem to wish that, Mr. Spiliotopoulos.
If they don’t wish that
and since there are no dead ends in democracies,
we will be led to an unstable condition.
If we weren’t able to agree with PASOK on our differences before the elections,
it is impossible to agree after the elections.
In that case,
we will probably need to resume elections.
I strongly disagree.
Obviously,
because you don’t want a second round of elections.
Thank you very much.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye.