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PAUL JAY: Welcome to The Real News Network. I'm Paul Jay in Washington.
In the first few days of April, the International Criminal Court said it would not proceed with
any investigation or process of possible Israeli war crimes in Gaza. They gave the reason that
no state entity that's a signatory to the ICC treaty has asked for such a thing, and
in the course of that they denied the request of the Palestinian Authority to be considered
such a state entity, thus closing down such investigations.
Now joining us to talk about this situation is Dr. Mads Gilbert. Dr. Gilbert is a Norwegian
physician. He cofounded NORWAC, a Norwegian-Palestinian humanitarian aid organization, and he's the
co-author of the book Eyes in Gaza. He was last in Gaza last January. Thanks for joining
us.
MADS GILBERT: Thank you for having me.
JAY: So let's start with the ICC decision. It sounds like the ICC keeps finding technical
reasons not to pursue this investigation.
GILBERT: Well, I think you're absolutely right, sir, and I think these technicalities should
not have obstructed the ICC from performing an investigation. And it's really a sad decision,
because it means that there is no rule of law as to the rights of the Palestinian people.
We have to remember that Israel is the fourth-strongest army in the world, and they executed extremely
brutal means towards the civilian population not only in Gaza but also in the occupied
West Bank. And all these actions for sure amounts to collective punishment, and the
number of killed and injured civilians during Operation Cast Lead certainly amounts to war
crimes, as has been stated by the Goldstone Report, the Arab League fact-finding commission,
and the B'Tselem report. So there was solid evidence for these war crimes.
JAY: But the ICC treaty, if I understand it correctly, does require states to either sign
or not sign. And many have not. For example, the United States has not. And if they haven't
signed, they're not covered. Isn't that--you know, it may not be right, but isn't that
the way the treaty works?
GILBERT: Well, Israel has not signed either. And you can be examined or prosecuted even
if you have not signed. If not, you know, any state could just avoid the ICC and thus
exempt itself from all the rules of law. So war crimes can be investigated by ICC even
if that state who executed the war crimes or potential war crimes has not signed the
treaty. The treaty works such that any signatory state has to be active in prosecuting war
criminals within its own territory and also see to it that war criminals are not being
allowed to roam freely in their country.
JAY: Well, if the ICC has any argument that because they won't recognize the Palestinians
and the Israelis have not signed, you would think that takes it out of their jurisdiction.
But if I understand it correctly, any signatory country could launch this request. For example,
Norway could. And in fact there has been an attempt. But the ICC still doesn't pursue
it. What happened there?
GILBERT: Well, that's true, and there was an attempt by a group of prominent Norwegian
lawyers to have the International Norwegian Court--which has recently been established,
and precisely to see to [it] that war criminals are not moving freely around in Norway--they
filed the charge against Israel on the Cast Lead war crimes, but the Norwegian International
Court did not follow up. Again, formalities and technicalities were used as the rejection
reason.
JAY: Now, you were in Gaza in January. Talk about what was the situation. Since the revolutions
in Egypt and some of the other Arab countries, since the various reports, Israel has sort
of suggested they've eased up on the sanctions and that, you know, most of the critical stuff
is actually getting through to Gaza. What did you find when you were there?
GILBERT: Well, on the ground, and if you look at the UN reports on the metric tons of building
materials, food and daily goods coming in over the Israeli-Gazan border, that is not
true. There is no real ease. Malnutrition is rampant in Gaza. A large proportion of
the children under five are malnourished, and they have stunting, meaning they are not
growing properly. There is a huge lack of building and reconstruction material for all
the bombed buildings, and the large proportion of building material, if anything comes in
at all, comes through the 600 tunnels in the south between Egypt and Gaza.
This smuggling activity, of course, is extremely devastating to the economy, because everything
smuggled into the tunnels will be much more expensive than if it had passed normally across
the border. Also, Israel has closed the northern crossing and converter belts, which normally
was used to import stuff into Gaza, and move that all down to the southern corner of the
border, which adds 20 percent costs to all the NGOs, and in particular to the UN activities,
to import food into Gaza. So what I saw in January really was an ongoing, harsh, and
very brutal siege affecting as a collective punishment the whole civilian Palestinian
society.
JAY: Now, what--in terms of the so-called rockets going back to Israel being fired from
the Gaza side and attacks by the Israelis on Gaza, how much [of] that kind of level
of warfare is still going on, and what do you make of it?
GILBERT: Well, there are regular Israeli air attacks on Gaza. There are regular killings.
And there are wounded almost every week. If you look at the UN reports, the number of
children, it's close to 40 injured children so far this year. And these targeted killings
are still going on. So there is by no means peace in Gaza. And the population and the
people I know from many years of work in Gaza are waiting for a new, massive Israeli attack.
And, in fact, the Israeli commanders have said it is not if but when the new attack
will come on Gaza, and it will be, quote-unquote, more vicious than Operation Cast Lead. So
in addition to all these deficiencies due to the siege, we have to understand that this
is a large, very young civilian population living in extreme fear. Don't forget that
60 percent of the 1.6 million Palestinians in Gaza are 18 years or below. The average
age in Gaza is 17.6 years. So this is in fact a child prison. And there is nowhere to fly
when the Apache or the drones come in and fire their deadly weapons.
JAY: Now, the rockets that are--to what extent are rockets still being fired from Gaza to
Israel, which I assume is going to be a rationale for any attack the Israelis have?
GILBERT: I don't have the exact number of rockets. They're carefully counted by the
Israeli side. But what we know about these rockets is that they are fairly useless as
a military tool. If you look at the mere numbers from the Operation Cast Lead assault on Gaza,
13 Israelis were killed and 1,400 Palestinians. That's a ratio of 1 to 100. And among those
13 Israeli killed, 10 more soldiers, and 10 out of the soldiers were killed by friendly
fire. So that remains three killed civilian Israelis and 1,400 Palestinians. And the same
ratio goes for the injured. So there is a massive disproportion in the military force
and indeed in the military activities on the two sides. So I think it's not really justified
to call it sort of a balanced military conflict. This is an occupying force, an occupying state
using excessive force to keep 1.6 million people in a prison and punishing them.
JAY: There was some suggestion after the fall of Mubarak that the Egyptians would relax,
open up the Egyptian border crossing to Gaza. Has that in fact changed?
GILBERT: Not substantially, I think. The number of Palestinians that can pass the Egyptian-Palestinian
border at Rafa is--I believe it's 400, a quota of 400 per day, which is very little. Across
the border to Israel [incompr.] It's absolutely closed, even for sick people needing treatment
abroad.
JAY: Now, the--I don't know how well the Egyptian people understand that situation. I think
there was a sense amongst Egyptians that there'd be a dramatic change on the Egyptian side.
And the sanctions or the blockade of Gaza is really only possible if Egypt cooperates,
collaborates with it. Isn't that right?
GILBERT: Well, I think the Egyptian people at large have a strong sympathy for the Palestinian
cause and they would like to see a change. But as you know, the major changes happening
after the Arab spring, in particular in Egypt, they have not been very substantial when it
comes to foreign policy and the big political issues. Still the old regime has a good grip
on foreign policy and security policies. So I think that's part of the explanation why
things have changed quite little with regards to the siege of Gaza.
JAY: All the global attention on Iran and the Israel potential attack on Iran and sanctions
and such, it seems to have quite successfully moved the conversation away from what had
been the discussion about Israel, which was the occupation, and there seems to be very
little talk about Gaza at all now. I mean, how much has this Iranian issue distracted
people from what's going on in Gaza?
GILBERT: Well, I think you're making an absolutely correct observation, and I think this is an
old Israeli tactic when it comes to foreign policy. It is to define new external enemies
to distract the international opinion from what they're doing in occupied Palestine.
Not only are they maintaining the harsh siege of Gaza and continuing the military attacks,
but also they are expanding the colonies on the West Bank and the destruction of Palestinian
property in East Jerusalem. So really the Israeli molding machine, this destructive
machine which is grabbing more and more Palestinian land, is going on despite the warnings from
the United States and despite all the hopes of a new potential negotiation for a peaceful
solution.
I'd like to underline that there are no military solutions to the occupation of Palestine on
either side. There are only political solutions. And the one who keeps the key to the political
solutions is actually United States, who subsidizes the state of Israel and their military power
with so many billion dollars. If the United States could put down the foot and say enough
is enough, then that would change the map completely with regards to the occupation
of Palestine.
JAY: But there's no sign of that, is there?
GILBERT: There is very little sign of that. And I think President Obama, with all due
respect, has been a huge disappointment. From his speech at Al-Azhar University in Cairo,
opening with "as-salamu alaykum", everybody had, really, a sigh of relief thinking that
U.S. policy towards Israel and towards the occupation of Palestine, among other issues,
would be eased and would change. Unfortunately, that has not taken place. Contrary to that,
I think Netanyahu is actually whipping your president quite a bit.
And I do hope--this is my sixth speaking tour to the United States on the issue of Cast
Lead, and I see a clear change of opinion among the American public--the church, the
civil movement, in the universities. People want to hear the Palestinian narrative. And
more and more, the pro-Israeli, the Zionist lobby is getting isolated, and more and more.
So I think that the only hope for the future is that the American public proper stands
up and say enough is enough, we want a change in the U.S. politics towards Israel.
JAY: And in terms of legal process, is there any avenue left for some accountability in
terms of Cast Lead?
GILBERT: Well, I think there are, and there are many good lawyers and judges around in
Europe, actually, who are really exploring the potentials for holding the Israeli government
and the army responsible for the atrocities. And if you read our book Eyes in Gaza, you
know there are some absolutely shocking massacres where nobody has been held accountable. And
we cannot have it that way. We cannot have it that way that the only state in the Middle
East calling itself the only democracy, with such a large army, can go on, unpunished and
uninvestigated, to massacre, to oppress, and to really torture the Palestinian people in
the way they're doing. We need to see justice find its place also in Palestine. So I hope
and I believe that the international legal community will find a way to have a proper
legal proceeding in the court to find out who did what and who is responsible for the
killings in Gaza.
JAY: Alright. Thanks for joining us, Mads.
GILBERT: Thank you.
JAY: And thank you for joining us on The Real News Network.