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excited evidence of a steady lols part of the pentagon papers frame
but original whistleblower
whistleblowers before but obviously very very well-known and respected one
welcome to the show we really appreciate it if i can another your apart of
rethink afghanistan campaign a brave new films putting together and you want are
but i can bear papers i do as well we get to that second explain people what
that is but of course i'll ask you a little bits of the first time we're
talking
uh... about your decision to leave the country you prolly the nasa million
tonight but i am novelette curious
you working w work and defense department state department you work
with my camaro
what what did you see in the pentagon papers
that push you do decision
well the first point was patricia
forty years ago this last fall
in nineteen sixty nine i became aware
just about the time that i finished reading the early part of the pentagon
papers which go back to nineteen forty five and they ended in nineteen
sixty-eight just before nixon came in
i learned to the nixon
making threats against north vietnam there were almost certain to
extend the war and actually a larger
he talked about
ending the war honorably
but what he had in mind secretly was ending it with
something very close to a victory and to do that
by threatening
to globe north vietnam the pieces even with nuclear weapons
they didn't meet its terms
terms that they never did meet by the way in which are really into usable dot
i was sure that
they would refuse
those terms and that dubbed the result was he was going to carry out these such
possibly even use nuclear weapons
so the question was what to do about that
and putting out the pentagon papers who was not the first thing
came to my mind on that because there we were control of your kid i would really
help it ended
before nixon came and he could easily say that that with the democrats policy
he was secretly really reproducing the democrats policy in terms of threats an
escalation but
public didn't know that i couldn't prove it because i didn't have the documents
if i did
i would have put those up
at the pentagon papers
but anyways i thought that
yet
for a for a month or so when i first got to come up in just forty years ago
it was some hope that if i got those out right away
he might even be delivered to
correctly
say that the democrats had badly conduct of the war that it was hopeless
supporters
and that he had no choice but to close it out
and push them in that direction
but he actually had no intention of doing that that's by the way what oracle
pilot could come very reasonably
we can get back to that if you want but
he could have done that very well this last year just yet
good war in afghanistan
and good
necessary just thinks he said in his campaign rightly or wrongly
but hardship but
the last eight years have made it hopeless as indeed
that is case
any credit for it it was nothing to do but to cut our losses and two
get out of there
you chose not to do it restores basically mixing troops not
so in my case
i get doug
actually what somebody did in the in the pentagon that the state department just
a few weeks ago
they were released
cable from our ambassador in
couple
i can bury the former owner of general who had been in charge in content
and they really see a secret cables saying that
exactly what he thought the situation there was
essentially hope that you didn't use that word birthday implied that
putting more troops in there would accomplish nothing
well that was the trip to the of the pentagon papers
i really hadn't seen secret cables were laid out in facsimile
since the pentagon peepers in forty years of the way that i did not on the
internet with when the times without the eye can vary cabled which by the way
the week sinking afghani
and program information has been of publicizing they've been putting it out
so for much the same reasons that led to that leak
which i think wished to
try to builds got some critical opposition
to this escalation
which will lead to nothing but more deaf
in afghanistan on both sides and i don't know whether positive outcome
with the same thing in mind i i put out the evidence for three years four
presidents in a row have been told
but the situation in vietnam was no more promising that is now for us in
afghanistan
and job in hopes that the public would draw that conclusion
they didn't come out until mclean was was well committed to the war sports
lead to papers did you think the you're gonna find out that you did it and would
you think was going to happen
well because of his scale
other so i put out
seven thousand pages top-secret to the senate foreign relations committee which
was when i first came from
and uh... then three thousand of those were on
negotiations i didn't get those two newspapers
i didn't want to interfere with negotiations i want to interfere with
the war
but john i did put out a four thousand top-secret pages in
i knew that there on the dozen or so people who had access to although they
would quickly eliminate all the others is
and it's not being
sufficiently committed i think everyone of those others wanted to see that war
ended
but except for the copy and henry kissinger say from the pentagon
but they would uh... they would not be candidates for having
because of what i expected to happen i thought i would go to prison for the
rest of my life
all-white you thought that and
work out a little better icebox but they may be expected uvm it n abm always been
curious after your
you can't were in the government anymore
how do you make it work
well because uh... nixon
fairly dramatic actions against the paper against me the with no precedent
namely
hikoshi he it read the first injunctions to the newspapers to try to stop
publication the first time in our history that it happened
but andy field of deficit his own supreme court that is justices some huge
appointed
ruled against him
but of
and he prosecuted me emt
later my co-defendant called tony russo
the first people ever put on prosecution truly safely dot if you knew that almost
no one does know that our prosecution was the very first
because we really don't in this country have a large and three
they use b_s_t_ now ject
against me in a way it had never been done
without charging espionage
as if it were an official secrets act to the kind that most countries to
concluding ancient
but we don't because of the first amendment revolution we have to british
tube
so we have a guarantees of free speech in the press you the clue preclude
that kind of uh... broad criminalization
descent or i should say of
telling the truth to the public to just is not coming to do that
nevertheless experimented with the prosecution against me that that's
slowed up other people from following the example that's what was meant to do
and can more significantly uh... mix into
criminal actions against me while i was on trial
other
number of condoms
to uh... to keep me from telling any secrets about him
again crimes fit within secret in this country because of our
and when those were discovered of mike charges were eventually dismissed and
more importantly he faced
impeachment itself
and had to resign but with all that
notoriety and grandma
it gave me uh... a platform really
for lecturing
uh... although i couldn't get a job in the government or even in universities
that wanted government contracts
mess
all of them but not all of them but all
prestigious ivy league collisions
by a mild career was pretty well set off to me but i've been able to make a
living as a lecturer ever since that's very in which i had a osborne
of course release the pentagon papers in the last time that bag that denison
sites in the beginning rethink afghanistan did something brave new
films as doing it right here where at retro program but
listenership betrayed be aware that it is
do you know how you get it on the net i guess you could just we think it's going
to spend has three big afghanistan dot com prepare and so and i know you u_n_
and that's always been on the program a couple times speak about this style
there as well *** white
patel
the audience and could please
what i can bury papers are and why you think there's so import well rep you
hold the protector who feared very very important person
but humko did what color i can bury
should have done
i can vary with the uh... former lieutenant general retired who is now
the
ambassador in kabul as i said in afghanistan
and on matthew hall was a young
former marine officer like me he was uh... former marine
infantry company commanders but he was in combat contract i was a peacetime
company commander mountain north carolina
and trouble fifties
we both had that background he was in uh... iraq it's a civilian
as i was in vietnam as a citizen
uh... rather rather similar jobs in a way that he was here that
he was a senior officer in a particularly
uh...
conflicted province in afghanistan
and weeks to same conclusion that i did so many years earlier in vietnam but he
was facing a flake where
it was our presence
that was recruiting people for the opposition they were they were fighting
us because we were there in their country
and job
in fact in both cases i think peak
uh... people joining the ranks against us
budget not necessarily agree with the ideology of the doctrine of the people
beating it communist in the case vietnam
fundamentalist islamic in the case of
patel them
but they were driving them because those people who are leading the fight
against foreign occupation
and effectively so and by the way in both cases looking leadership had
recently defeated
another power that was occupying
the kanya defeated an elephant defeated the french
and the taliban
with our help have defeated soviets
so uh... people would running to expose to xa buildings no invaders
and whole concluded that uh... we weren't going to beat them
they weren't going to give up
funny as i stated some more more conscious of just up similar
let's work
but his result was to uh...
leave the foreign service
and i'm sure that you know
trial that he had to have kind of thing to come back
to tell the truth personally done on
all the networks are returned before the president had made his decision
so he was doing what i've been purging officials
to do you didn't hear it from me
for many years now and that is
don't do what i did
don't wait until bombs were falling and mentally
escalation has occurred in the wars on and sultans beauregard
before you come back and tell your crew about the situation
which documents
uh... he didn't have a lot of documents to put out noel trim and his province
but didn't have his pentagon papers and if he did
i think they would read just about the same with the ones i put out
except place names
reproduce them otherwise
and traci came out and and get it i think what i can break should have done
now i can vary with his boss
and on the way out of afghanistan
he conferred with i can vary told him what he was going to do and i can bury
urged him to stay and today on his staff because he was so
highly-regarded
let's continue the analogy here et i wud
uh... i was uh... i was the highest grade of civil service officer i was an
effort so on
in vietnam ties you can connect with other
presidential appointment so i was
highly regarded at that point
and drug
i tried to get him to stay in they try and richard holbrooke the ambassador at
large here
for the area then tried to get into spanish staff and very wisely
he refused to be modeled like came out to tell the truth
i can bury
meanwhile
are a whole did set up a time that i can bury had agreed with him privately
we didn't get specific
now we know exactly what he meant that i can buried cables could have been
written by whole himself like a very secret cable
when you read them in the times with people should rule or can
can read them on that uh... website
rethinking
afghanistan dot commas with it does they're reading cable foolishly work
as pessimistic as could possibly be
and yet
instead of joining the whole incoming peter weight role
in coming back
and and be willing to testify truthfully
and by the way holyoke
made himself available would have loved to testify under oath to congress but
they didn't call him
he talked to people in private
but uh... it they didn't call him particularly instead they called
i can bury
cook iffy about her
who came back check next to general mcr stroll at the table with whom he
totally disagreed image people so much so
they'll that story into
look in the washington post today that was when they came back was on the plane
they didn't talk to each other for six hours they were totally at odds
how on what should be done
but after
being briefed
by people in the administration i can bury raises is right-handed swears under
oath
he totally agrees with the plan he's on board he had every confidence it's going
to work you can assure that congress and the american people
the opposite
of audio cassette in secret to the
precedent in other words he lobbied it's nearly any official in his position
withdrew
the pentagon papers it is
with life like that
of silt madi
uh... in truth-telling and private
though the president had been warned
had ignored what i can barely fit
and uh... right now the rethinking afghanistan uh... campaign is
his uh... issuing uh... a petition getting people to sign a petition which
is quick signing i find it
asking congressman congress with your local congressperson
to read if you like and very cable but i i thought hey hike quote
campaign just yesterday
and said you know i don't think that's adequate cable they're out there
they can read them
what they've heard i can berries testimony to the contrary dalal
we truly to believe well
that usually answered
they should call taken very back i think people should call congress
and tell them to mend
that he be brought back
for testimony and loud
chance
to get himself straight here tell the truth under oath
just abscam
explained to assure the the discrepancy
between what you're now paying the true the true at all
of support putting tens of thousands for troops into afghanistan when a few weeks
ago you were telling the president that was useless at even counter-productive
and give him a chance to to tell the truth well they're definitely won't
happen
and the reason that it won't happen is because both republicans and democrats
don't want it to happen so that lisa my final question haley mike i think you're
probably right to woodrow them around america why do you think that that lets
savy
the democrats don't want that the republicans who favor the wars so
document the democrats
say they're against the war right of course a oscar process
but they don't want to do my guess is recorded falling american politics for
the last several decades yeah the democrats say a lot of things they're
not in actually
had any interest in doing
and radios bringing shame on themselves once again yes and so he has been a long
history was just reading malcolm x_ uh...
there last weekend
and hear the same problems that we have which is the democrats tell you to do
something publicist release of the republic so we're not going to do it
we're not going to be civil rights we're not going to be out to reform we're not
going to get out of afghanistan iraq the democrats say we're going to amend don't
have betrayed our you know all three leaders in congress
policy and read them the head of the appropriations committee will be
couple said they are very skeptical quote about the benefit of any further
instructions
and yet when it comes time to vote on the appropriations
what will they do we can predict very closed with a wool bilal yet while a lot
of so because of my last question for you and we're trying to daniel ellsberg
leaked the pentagon papers which is
at that little by little guy like that so we understand
is machiavellian everything to do it he promised and classic politician is a
ill ought to be blood more hope in our bomb so do you think that obama
earnestly believe earnestly believes and i guess that's a possibility
i think it maybe even a significant possibly that he thinks the arctic
internet innocent around i can very strong the crystals right we can do this
or is there another reason wyo obama is continue in afghanistan and what would
that be
i don't know him
directly
but i know
i've read about dealt with
a lot of people
like him
not president about adult president
but uh... i night didn't know him personally but i read there
inside memos and polish in the pentagon papers i've studied for forty years
uh... he's like the others
the point of the pentagon papers was that the policy that was followed
with remarkably continuous true
really five precedent-setting nixon
out democrat and republican
didn't make that much difference the problem was not self by changing parties
in putting a new president him
and you know why that we're settling the strike was very smart but he's not
actually smarter
contruction for example or even dixon hit his own kind of intelligence that
they probably don't have
but they had uh... kind that he doesn't go probably
they were smart enough and that did nothing
they were institutional economic interest
various kinds of interest service interest
military industrial complex interest
imperial interest
that worked on each of them in the same weight whatever they brought to that
shop so levi had up to the president
it's simply not an answer any precedent that it was a mistake cook those who who
thought
goodwood wait michael sivy football exactly as but then the conversation and
i am a race officially discouraged
with what's happened about administration so far many fronts for
this conversation is even more discouraging to be perfectly frank
because who it doesn't matter group both republicans and democrats all where it
is more war began only i think that it won't matter in this
i don't think that the uh... resilient likely republican candidates like mccain
final appeal
let alone would be that much different from bush and being really totally
oblivious
to public pressure of how much is from our satellite
like them
of
obviously obama is much more a responsive
to that focuses concentrated
campaign funding that he gets from uh... goldman sachs in the wall street ended
in the military reinsurance company from two oh four that he had from russia
count organized as
we are
i don't think it does make a difference
who's been in a sense of how responsive they might be to match pressure from
citizens and from congress
if we can bring pressure to bear on congress' to live up to their own took
office
which is to defend the constitution not to abate
the president of their party and not just get re-elected
so idon't think what it really means is if u if u order please will you hope
it what a president does
yes you can give up on this issue but that's not what our constitution says
they put the power of the first
in congress and the power of war and peace in congress and yes
those reflexes are very uh... wrote it
but now
it's up to us and if we don't do it
shame on us
just old people in congress
and i don't want his lawyers not good enough
you have to live up to your real responsibility so much
or you will lose your truck
and they may not be the right
if they feel they kill
but they'll feel the heat and i want to stress people to my sweet did elect
democratic president and yes he's asleep in afghanistan
but presumably he will be pulling out of iraq to help a lot faster than job
became well what i don't pretend that matter-of-factly there we go back and
obama added a line
when he said he intends to get all the troops out of iraq i don't think he has
the slightest intention
removing our permanent bases in iraq which will require
thirty thousand forty thousand fifty thousand troops there
indefinitely
if he gets rid of those bases it will be coach has been an upsurge in this
country which is
hard before he
but something like that didn't happen in the soviet union and we need that here
asked lapd okay i think that that was statham so evident ranged
borrowed little bites
of the the end of the change in soviet union
took place why do you think this is not ours they develop a truck that we don't
have that
but uh... we need people
who will uh... take our constitution seriously and get get that back for a
leaving his one thousand or a parasite blacks act
politicians these days do you think that they are have the american people in
apartheid system now
well of course we lucrative with little part right for a long time
and it was no precedent who did cu coz on his own to train for the prime but
recuperation
jim crow and uh... uh... that didn't change without movement by lead
afflicted people themselves and many white fella
in this country
and without the pressure from below the civil rights movement is
lightly crammed
friend howard can fit all the time
of linda johnson was important there but he would not have done what he did
without the education and the initiative and uh... the mass movement of the civil
rights movement
so uh... that
that uh... combination got it together
and again
uh... for to give linda johnson introduced to
some other president might not have responded
that effectively if he did so it does make a difference
voted for obama
and i would vote for him again again to the likely republican
uh... and so hope because i believe it does make a difference
but the difference it makes it
is transit guitars
to make a difference
under that president and people were not doing that now it's not happening now
but it could and if it doesn't as i've said shame on us to talk to us
why danny lyon's ellsberg now part of the rethink afghanistan campaign
everything afghanistan dot com put together by brave new films thanks so
much for joining us american accidents