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>> THE 5-1 VOTE BY SANTA FE CITY COUNCIL THIS WEEK MEANS
THE CITY BELIEVES NEW MEXICO LAW ALLOWS SAME SEX MARRIAGE.
NOW IT DOESN'T CARRY THE FORCE OF LAW BUT DOES IT CHANGE THE
DEBATE; INTERESTING. HERE TO MULL IT OVER, ATTORNEY
AND FORMER DEMOCRATIC PARTY OFFICIAL, LAURA SANCHEZ.
WE MISS HER SO MUCH. FROM THE WAITE COMPANY PUBLIC
RELATIONS, CHRISTOPHER SANCHEZ IS BACK; HOST OF THE NEW
MORNING BREW SHOW THAT AIRS ON CABLE TELEVISION HERE IN
ALBUQUERQUE, LARRY AHRENS IS BACK, AND FORMER DEMOCRATIC
PARTY CHAIRMAN, JOHN WERTHEIM. GOOD TO SEE YOU TOO.
NOW, LET'S STAY WITH YOU ON THIS QUESTION.
THE COUNCIL URGED THE STATE'S COUNTY CLERKS TO ISSUE
MARRIAGE LICENSES TO SAME SEX COUPLES, AS WE KNOW, WHICH
MOST WILL NOT WITHOUT A COURT ORDER OR SOMETHING MORE
OFFICIAL. SO MY QUESTION IS, DOES THIS
FORCE THE ISSUE? DOES IT CHANGE THE DEBATE?
IS IT MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECT IN YOUR VIEW?
>> I THINK, YES, TO ALL THOSE QUESTIONS.
IT IS MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
IT DOES AFFECT THE DEBATE BECAUSE THE CITY ATTORNEY,
GINO ZAMORA FOR SANTA FE, CAME OUT WITH A LEGAL OPINION,
FORMER COUNSEL FOR GOVERNOR RICHARDSON, HE IS A WELL
RESPECTED LAWYER. AND, HIS REASONING IN HIS
MEMORANDUM, IF YOU TAKE A LAWYERLY LOOK AT IT, IS
STRONG. THE IDEA, OF COURSE, THE BASIC
IDEA OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY IS THE NOTION THAT COMMITTED
LOVING COUPLES SHOULD HAVE THEIR RELATIONSHIP RECOGNIZED
IN ALL THE WAYS THAT WE VIEW AS IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY THE
ABILITY TO SEE THEIR LOVED ONE IN THE HOSPITAL AND THOSE
KINDS OF THINGS. NEW MEXICO IS IN A UNIQUE
SPOT. WE'RE THE ONLY STATE THAT
EITHER HASN'T LEGALIZED CIVIL UNIONS OR EQUALITY IN MARRIAGE
OR HAS BANNED IT. SO, WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF NOT
HAVING A STATEMENT ON THE LAW AND SO, I THINK, MR. ZAMORA IS
RIGHT. THE LAW DOESN'T SAY THAT IT
HAS TO BE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN AND WE ALSO HAVE AN
EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION WHICH SAYS
THAT YOU CANNOT DISCRIMINATE ON THE BASIS OF SEX.
LEGALLY THERE IS A STRONG POSITION, BUT I DON'T THINK
ANY OF THE CLERKS ARE GOING TO DO IT ON THEIR OWN.
IT REQUIRES THE LAWSUIT TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS IN THE
COURTS. >> CHRIS, JOHN MADE A GOOD
POINT ABOUT THE OTHER CLERKS. WE HAVE STATEMENTS COMING OUT
NOW, PARTICULARLY BERNALILLO COUNTY CLERK, MAGGIE TOULOUSE
OLIVER. LET ME READ YOU A PART OF HER
RESPONSE. "WHILE PERSONALLY IN FAVOR OF
SAME SEX MARRIAGE" SHE SAID, "MY HANDS ARE LEGALLY TIED AT
THE MOMENT. WHILE I APPRECIATE THE SANTA
FE CITY ATTORNEY'S LEGAL OPINION, IT IS STILL JUST AN
OPINION AND ONE THAT CONFLICTS WITH ANOTHER LEGAL OPINION ON
THE ISSUE." SHE IS LOOKING FOR CLARITY, IT
CONTINUES, FROM EITHER THE LEGISLATURE OR OUR ATTORNEY
GENERAL. SO, IS THAT NECESSARY?
>> LET ME FIRST START BY SAYING THAT I FULLY SUPPORT
MARRIAGE EQUALITY AND ALWAYS HAVE, BUT WHAT REALLY
PUNCTUATED THAT WAS IN NOVEMBER WHEN I GOT MARRIED
AND THAT WAS THE HAPPIEST DAY OF MY LIFE.
AND FOR US TO DENY THAT FOR SAME SEX COUPLES IS JUST
IMMORAL AND WRONG. SO I THINK THAT THE SANTA FE
CITY COUNCIL DID THE RIGHT THING ON THIS, AND FOR THREE
REASONS, THEY DEMONSTRATED LEADERSHIP AND EVEN THOUGH IT
IS LARGELY SYMBOLIC, WHAT I DO FEEL IS IT TELLS PEOPLE -- IT
TELLS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, LOOK, IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, WE WILL.
AND TELLS THE STATE GOVERNMENT, IF YOU'RE NOT
GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT WE WILL.
AND IT ALSO, I THINK, IS SPOT ON WITH INTERPRETATION OF THE
LAW, TOO. NOWHERE IN THERE DOES IT SAY
MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.
I DO HOPE THAT THE COUNTY CLERKS ACROSS THE STATE START
TO FOLLOW SUIT AND START ISSUING SAME SEX MARRIAGE
LICENSES AND THAT WOULD BE SHOWING HUGE LEADERSHIP ON
BEHALF OF OUR COUNTY CLERK HERE, THE LARGEST COUNTY IN
THE STATE, IF SHE WERE TO START TO DO THAT.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ON THAT POINT, BECAUSE I HAVE HEARD
THAT BEFORE, CHRIS JUST SAID, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE
ARMS RACE WITH THE RUSSIANS YEARS AGO.
YOU KEEP PILING SOMETHING ON AND SOMETHING IS GOING TO
CRACK EVENTUALLY. WOULD THAT ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN
YOUR VIEW IF THE BERNALILLO COUNTY CLERK JOINED IN AND
OTHERS FOLLOWED SUIT, WOULD THAT JUST AUTOMATICALLY SOLVE
IT AT THAT POINT? >> I DON'T THINK IT WOULD
AUTOMATICALLY SOLVE IT BUT IT WOULD ADD MORE PRESSURE.
>> TO WHO? >> IN GENERAL TO OTHER
DECISION MAKERS, ELECTED OFFICIALS, FOR EXAMPLE,
LEGISLATURE, WOULD PLAN TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF OTHER PRESSURES AT PLAY DURING
THE LEGISLATURE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN LOBBYING AGAINST
THIS EFFORT WHICH MEANT THAT IT FELL BY THE WAYSIDE AT THE
LEGISLATURE. AND THEN PRESSURE ON THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL. THERE IS OBVIOUSLY AN ELECTION
COMING UP. HE'S RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.
THERE IS SOME POLITICAL ISSUES THAT ARE INVOLVED.
INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, GINO ZAMORA ALSO RAN FOR ATTORNEY
GENERAL AGAINST GARY KING BACK WHEN HE WAS RUNNING.
SO, VERY WELL RESPECTED OPINION, I THINK, BUT IT IS AN
OPINION. AND I THINK WE HAVE SEEN
BEFORE WHERE CLERKS WERE PUT IN A POSITION OF THEY HAD
MOVED FORWARD WITH STARTING TO ISSUE LICENSES AND THEN THERE
WAS AN OPINION BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AT THAT POINT, I THINK
IT WAS PATSY MADRID, SAID, NO, THIS IS NOT LEGAL.
I THINK IT IS WISE TO WAIT FOR CLARITY BUT I THINK OF IT AS A
TIPPING POINT. THERE IS A CULTURE CHANGE
HAPPENING AND THERE IS A TIPPING POINT THAT WILL OCCUR
AND HAVING THE SANTA FE CITY COUNCIL ASSERT THEMSELVES THIS
WAY TO REALLY RECOGNIZE IT, I THINK MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE
AND WILL MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN BERNALILLO COUNTY OR THE
CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE AS WELL. >> LARRY AHRENS, AS ALWAYS
THERE IS PUSHBACK TO EVERYTHING.
THE WORLD DOES NOT WORK, LIKE, WE AGREE AND EVERYBODY COMES
RUSHING IN. WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF THE
FRICTION THAT IS GOING TO ERUPT HERE?
>> IS THIS WHERE I MENTION I HAVE GAY FRIENDS?
I THINK IT IS VERY INTERESTING AT THIS TABLE, THE TWO MORE
CONSERVATIVE GUYS ARE IN AGREEMENT WITH OUR MORE
LIBERAL FRIENDS HERE. I ALSO SUPPORT THE MARRIAGE --
>> YOU HAVE A BELL HERE. RING IT.
>> WELL, LOOK, AMERICANS, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE WERE KIDS AND
PLAYED BALL IN THE YARD AND TIE GOES TO THE RUNNER.
WELL, HERE IS WHAT AMERICANS DO WHEN THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT
TO DO ABOUT SOMETHING, TIE USUALLY GOES TO FREEDOM OR
LIBERTY. AND IN THIS CASE, IT JUST
SEEMS PATENTLY UNFAIR TO ARGUE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE AT THIS
POINT IN TIME. >> LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING.
WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF GOVERNOR MARTINEZ CAME OUT AND SAID I
DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS DECISION.
DOES THAT CHANGE THE DEBATE, SOMEHOW?
MEANING, CERTAIN PEOPLE HAVE TO BE ON BOARD FOR OTHERS TO
BE ABLE TO FOLLOW. >> SURE.
I THINK GOVERNOR MARTINEZ IS A PRACTICAL WOMAN AND SHE SEES
THE INEVITABILITY OF IT ALL. AND I THINK THAT IS WHERE IT
IS GOING. SHE MAY TAKE A STAND BUT I
DON'T THINK SHE IS GOING TO DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND ON
THIS ONE. >> BACK TO CHRIS ON THAT.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS? WE'LL GET TO THE POLITICS OF
GARY KING HERE IN A SECOND TOO.
WITH THE GOVERNOR, WOULD SHE BE WILLING TO BE IN SUPPORT OF
THIS? >> THE GOVERNOR HAS CLEARLY
STATED WHERE SHE STANDS ON THE ISSUE AND SHE, I THINK,
RECENTLY EVEN WENT AHEAD AND BUTTRESSED HER STATEMENT WHICH
IS SHE BELIEVES IT IS BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN AND I
DISAGREE WITH HER ON THAT. SO I AM NOT SURE SHE IS GOING
TO CHANGE HER MIND ON THAT BUT I DO THINK THE MORE THESE
COUNTY CLERKS COME OUT AND ISSUING THESE LICENSES, AGAIN,
IT BRINGS THE INEVITABLE. >> ON THE POLITICS OF GARY
KING, ATTORNEY GENERAL, RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, DOES IT
HURT OR HELP FOR HIM TO COME OUT WITH AN OPINION NOW,
LATER? WHAT IS THE BEST WAY HE CAN
PLAY THIS? >> I MEAN, ONE THING I WANT --
I THINK THAT THE ISSUE NEEDS TO BE REVISITED.
HE HAS TO CONSIDER REVISITING THE ISSUE.
HIS FATHER WHO I WORKED FOR, GOVERNOR KING, YOU KNOW, HE
WAS A FAIRLY RELIGIOUSLY CONSERVATIVE GUY BUT
PROGRESSIVE ON A LOT OF ISSUES.
IT IS A DIFFICULT ISSUE, THIS RELIGION AND MARRIAGE EQUALITY
ISSUE I THINK IF THERE IS A CONSENSUS BUILDER, WE ARE
SEEING AT THIS TABLE THAT IT IS A MATTER OF CIVIL LIBERTIES
AND FAIRNESS. THERE IS THIS GROWING
CONSENSUS IN FAVOR OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY, BUT THEN WE HAVE THE
COUNCIL OF BISHOPS AND WE HAVE OUR OWN ARCHBISHOP AND TWO
BISHOPS HERE IN NEW MEXICO RESTATING THEIR RELIGIOUS
VIEWS. I THINK THAT THIS IS A TOUGH
CALL FOR GARY HIMSELF, KNOWING HIS RELIGIOUS UPBRINGING, AND
ALSO A TOUGH CALL FOR A LOT OF NEW MEXICANS.
SO, EVEN THOUGH THIS CONSENSUS IS BUILDING, WE HAVE TO
RECOGNIZE IT IS A TOUGH CALL FOR HIM PERSONALLY.
POLITICALLY, IT IS VERY CLEAR, I MEAN, MARRIAGE EQUALITY IS
IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PLATFORM, AND HAS BEEN FOR
MANY YEARS. SO POLITICALLY IN THE
DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY, THE PARTY HAS SPOKEN, OUR CENTRAL
COMMITTEE HAS SPOKEN YEARS AGO ON WHERE MOST DEMOCRATS STAND
AND IT IS IN FAVOR OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY.
>> DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT LAURA?
HIS HANDS ARE TIED BY THE PARTY PLATFORM; EXPECTATIONS.
>> I THINK THAT IS THE EXPECTATION OF THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY, OF COURSE, BUT I ALSO THINK THERE IS A LOT TO BE
GAINED BY COMING OUT WITH A FAVORABLE OPINION.
YOU'RE BASICALLY SOLIDIFYING A BASE WHICH YOU SHOULDN'T
IGNORE AND WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC
CANDIDATES WHO TAKE THAT PART FOR GRANTED.
IT IS IMPORTANT FOR HIM NOT TO IN THIS RACE.
ESPECIALLY AGAINST SOMEBODY LIKE SUSANA MARTINEZ WHO IS A
POPULAR GOVERNOR. BUT, IT IS STILL VERY EARLY
AND ONE WOULD HOPE, AND AS GOOD LAWYERS WE WOULD HOPE
THERE IS SOLID LEGAL FOUNDATION AND SOLID LEGAL
RESEARCH DONE BY HIS OFFICE TO SHORE UP WHATEVER OPINION THEY
COME UP WITH. >> BETTER NOW OR LATER?
>> I THINK IT IS BETTER NOW. >> WE SHOULD LOOK AT
MR. ZAMORA'S OPINION BECAUSE I THINK THE REASONING IS
EXTREMELY SOUND. IT'S HARD TO CRITIQUE IT.
I DON'T SEE WHY YOU COULDN'T CHANGE THE LETTERHEAD AND
MAKE -- >> MY LAWYER FRIENDS WOULD
KNOW ABOUT THIS THAN I DO, BUT THERE IS TWO COURT CASES GOING
ON, ONE IN THE SUPREME COURT, AND THE JUSTICES COULD DECIDE
THAT THIS FALL. THEY COULD DECIDE NOT TO
DECIDE WHICH WOULD, IN EFFECT, KIND OF TAKE OUT DOMA AND IT
WILL ALLOW OR IT WOULD ALLOW -- YOU GUYS KNOW ABOUT
THIS THAN I DO -- BUT IT WOULD ESSENTIALLY MAKE THE
DISCRIMINATION UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
>> YEAH. INTERESTING.
I COULD BE WRONG HERE, THE LAST POLL I SAW IT WAS FAIRLY
CLOSE OF APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE FOR GAY MARRIAGE.
IT WASN'T SLAM DUNK BY ANY STRETCH.
I SAY AGAIN, THE POLITICS OF IT SEEM TRICKIER THAN WE ARE
GETTING AT HERE AT THE TABLE, LAURA SANCHEZ, BECAUSE WE HAD
IDEAS ABOUT CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS TO DO THIS.
LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE AND THAT HAS GONE BY THE WAYSIDE HERE A
LITTLE BIT. AND I HEAR YOU SAY, WE ARE
GOING TO GET THERE EVENTUALLY, BUT IS THIS THE BEST WAY OR
MAYBE IT IS THE ONLY WAY AT THIS POINT.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ON THAT? >> WELL, I THINK IT IS ONE
WAY. I DON'T THINK IT IS
NECESSARILY THE ONLY WAY BUT IT IS IMPORTANT BOTH FOR THE
SUPPORTERS OF THIS AND I CONSIDER MYSELF A SUPPORTER TO
THIS ISSUE. I THINK MULTI-PRONG STRATEGY
IS HOW TO ADDRESS THIS. I THINK YOU GET AS MUCH
SUPPORT FROM PUBLIC BODIES LIKE THE CITY OF SANTA FE
COUNCIL AND OTHERS. YOU GET AS MANY CLERKS AS
POSSIBLE TO SUPPORT YOU AND AS MANY CANDIDATES FROM BOTH
PARTIES TO SUPPORT YOU. IT IS A MULTI-LEVEL APPROACH
TO TRY TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN. >> YOU'RE DESCRIBING A
STRATEGY, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, IN HOW TO GET THIS DONE.
GETTING THE CLERKS ON BOARD, GETTING OTHER THOUGHT LEADERS
ON BOARD, AND OTHER PEOPLE ON BOARD, TO DEAL WITH THAT 45%
OF THE POPULOUS WHO IS NOT A BOARD WITH THIS, FOR A VARIETY
OF REASONS, SOME RELIGIOUS SOME OTHERWISE.
IT SEEMS TO ME THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A WHOLE LOT OF
EDUCATION TO KEEP THIS THING ROLLING TO GET TO A POSITIVE
RESULT AS OPPOSED TO JUST -- >> JUST BECAUSE THAT 45% IS
AGAINST YOU, DOESN'T MEAN -- I MEAN THAT 45% COULD BE THE
FOLKS WHO ARE NEVER GOING TO BE WITH YOU, NO MATTER WHAT.
IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A DEMOCRATIC STRATEGY AND YOU'RE
LOOKING INTO A PRIMARY WHERE THERE COULD BE SOMEBODY
ELSE -- THAT 45% IS NOT PART OF YOUR BASE ANYWAY.
SO, I THINK THERE IS DIFFERENT POLITICS OF DIFFERENT STEPS OF
THE PROCESS. >> THAT MAKES SENSE, YEAH.
>> GARY KING, I HOPE HE DOESN'T LET HIS POLITICAL
AMBITION GET IN THE WAY AND I HOPE HE DOES THE POLITICALLY
COURAGEOUS THING TO DO AND SUPPORT IT.
I HOPE IT IS NOT HIS AMBITION RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR THAT ARE
STOPPING HIM FROM COMING OUT AND FULLY SUPPORTING IT, GIVEN
HOW MANY PEOPLE SUPPORTED IT --
>> I WOULD JUST SAY THAT THIS IS THE ROLE THAT THE COURTS
PLAY WELL. WE HAVEN'T TRADITIONALLY LET
THE ELECTORATE DECIDE THAT DISCRIMINATION IS OKAY.
AND SO THIS IS A QUESTION OF FAIRNESS AS I THINK LARRY
STATED VERY WELL, AND SO IT IS REALLY A QUESTION OF, WE
SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR AN UNEQUAL SOCIETY.
THAT IS WHERE THE LINES OF DEMOCRACY STOP AND
CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION OF LIBERTIES COMES IN AND THAT IS
REALLY THE COURT'S ROLE. >> I HEAR YOU.
TIMES SUPPORT THAT, CURRENT TIMES SUPPORT THAT.
BACK IN A MINUTE WITH ANOTHER FUN ONE; THE ALBUQUERQUE
MAYOR'S RACE.