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OF JACK JOHNSON."
IT'S INCREDIBLE.
HERE HE IS, KEN BURNS.
KEN, COME ON OUT.
[ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ]
♪♪
>> Carson: HOW ARE YA?
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING
HERE.
AGAIN, GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.
YOU'RE AN INCREDIBLE FILMMAKER.
AND THERE'S -- I WANT TO SPEND
■■ALL OUR TIME TALKING ABOUT THS
PARTICULAR STORY,
AND JACK JOHNSON.
AND MAYBE YOU CAN EXPLAIN.
THERE'S JUST SO MANY DIFFERENT
THINGS THAT YOU COULD POSSIBLY
BE WORKING ON.
WHAT WAS IT ABOUT JACK JOHNSON
IN PARTICULAR?
>> IT'S JUST THE INTERSECTION
OF THE MOST INCREDIBLE THEMES
I'VE EVER COME ACROSS.
IT'S ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLE
PERSONALITY, ABOUT RACE,
ABOUT SEX, ABOUT FREEDOM,
ABOUT ATHLETIC ACCOMPLISHMENT,
ALL IN ONE LIFE.
THIS IS THE GUY WHO'S THE FIRST
AFRICAN-AMERICAN HEAVYWEIGHT
CHAMPIONSHIP AND THE PERSON
FOR WHOM THE PHRASE "GREAT WHITE
HOPE" WAS INVENTED.
THEY HAD TO FIND SOMEBODY
TO BEAT HIM.
>> Carson: I WAS WATCHING THIS,
AND I KNOW, CRAIG, YOU'VE SEEN
IT -- I WAS EMBARRASSED TO SAY
I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT JACK JOHNSON.
YOU KNOW, LIKE SATCHEL PAIGE,
OR SOME OF THESE OTHER NAMES
THAT COME ALONG.
I JUST WAS -- AND I WAS THINKING
THIS IS THE TYPE OF THING
THEY SHOULD SHOW IN SCHOOL,
BECAUSE I WAS BORED, WELL,
THROUGH ALL OF SCHOOL,
BUT I THOUGHT IF THEY WOULD JUST
SHOW THIS SORT OF THING
BECAUSE IT TALKS ABOUT HIS■■RY.
IT TALKS ABOUT THE JIM CROW ERA,
AND IT SAYS SO MUCH, BUT SORT
OF THROUGH THIS WHOLE TOPIC
OF BOXING.
>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
HE'S THE ORIGINAL PLAYER.
THIS IS 50 YEARS BEFORE
MUHAMMAD ALI.
THIS GUY HAS GOT THE BLING-BLING
AND THE FAST CARS AND THE FANCY■
YOU KNOW, CRIBS AND ALL OF THIS
STUFF AND THE ENTOURAGE
AND WHITE WOMEN.
AND THIS IS BEFORE MUHAMMAD ALI.
IT'S AN AMAZING STORY.
>> Carson: HOW TOUGH, GIVEN JUST
■■ THE TURN OF THE CENTURY
THERE, WAS IT FOR
AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN TRYING
TO ACHIEVE WHAT JACK WAS TRYING
TO ACHIEVE?
AND THIS WAS A GUY WHO WAS
HITTING THE RAILROADS, GOING
FROM CITY TO CITY, BEATING BLACK
GUYS, WHITE GUYS, TRYING TO GET
TO THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION, WHO
WAS JIM JEFFRIES AT THE TIME,
REALLY, WHO ENDED UP RETIRING.
AND THAT'S WHERE YOUR MOVIE SORT
OF CULMINATES, TO SOME DEGREE,
AT "THE BATTLE OF THE CENTURY."
>> IT IS AN AMAZING TIME.
I MEAN, THIS IS THE WORST PERIOD
FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS
IN OUR HISTORY.
AND THIS GUY IS DECIDING
TO WHAT?■■
LIVE HIS LIFE THE WAY
HE WANTED TO.
HE'S BEATING WHITE PEOPLE
IN THE RING.
HE'S MARRYING AND GOING OUT
WITH WHITE WOMEN, AND HE IS
TAKING ON THE BEST BOXER
OF THE AGE, A GUY WHO RETIRED
UNDEFEATED RATHER THAN FACE
JACK JOHNSON, HAS COME OUT
OF RETIREMENT TO BE "THE GREAT
WHITE HOPE," AND HE
DEMOLISHED HIM.
AND THIS AN AGE, NOT JUST WHEN■■
MORE AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BEING
LYNCHED, IT'S WHEN THE REAL
VICTIMS ARE JUST ORDINARY PEOPLE
AND NEWSPAPERS LIKE "THE
NEW YORK TIMES" AND "THE
LOS ANGELES TIMES" ARE SAYING
THE MOST UNBELIEVABLE RACIST
THINGS YOU COULD POSSIBLY
IMAGINE.
>> Carson: IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE
TO READ THAT STUFF.
>> WHEN "THE LOS ANGELES TIMES"
PRINTS AND EDITORIAL, "A WORD
TO THE BLACK MAN -- DO NOT PUFF
YOUR HEAD TOO HIGH, DO NOT PUFF
YOUR CHEST TOO HIGH.
YOU'RE THE SAME LOW MEMBER
OF SOCIETY YOU ALWAYS WERE."
>> Carson: THAT'S
FROM THE PAPER.
>> FROM "THE LOS ANGELES TIMES."
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" REFERRED
TO HIM AS AN ANIMAL.
THIS IS NOT JUST THE, YOU KNOW,
THE KLU KLUX *** CORNER, OR,
YOU KNOW, THE RACIST SOUTH.
THIS IS ALL ACROSS AMERICA.
AND YET, THIS GUY IS STRIDING
THROUGH LIFE AS IF HE OWNS IT.
I MEAN, HE IS JUST ONE
OF THE GREATEST CHARACTERS
YOU COULD POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND.
>> Carson: SO GREAT
OF YOU TO BRING THIS GUY TO LIFE
THROUGH THIS FILM FOR PEOPLE
TO -- AND I URGE PEOPLE TO GO
WATCH IT.
IT AIRED ON PBS.
IT'LL PROBABLY REAIR.
>> THEY'RE SHOWING IT ALL
THE TIME, YEAH.
>> Carson: PICK UP THE DVD
AND WATCH IT, 'CAUSE IT'S
SO WELL-DONE.
HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO DO,
LIKE, THIS PARTICULAR
DOCUMENTARY?
>> THIS WAS ABOUT 3 1/2,
4 YEARS.
WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT
AND ARGUING ABOUT IT
FOR A REALLY LONG TIME.
BUT THE GREAT THING IS THAT
THE BOXING WAS THE PAY-PER-VIEW
OF ITS TIME.
SO, THERE'S LOTS OF FOOTAGE
OF HIM AND THESE FIGHTS.
AND THERE'D BE PEOPLE YELLING
RACIAL INSULTS AT HIM, AND HE'D
BE SMILING AND GIVING HIS GOOD
AS IT GOT.
HE'D BE BOXING WITH SOMEBODY,
HE'D LEAN OVER HIS SHOULDER
AND MAKE A JOKE AT SOMEBODY WHO
WAS HURLING AN INSULT AT HIM.
I MEAN, IT'S --
HE IS, OF ALL THE PEOPLE I'VE
STUDIE■■IN ALL OF THE FILMS I'VE
MADE, HE IS THE MOST MODERN.
HE'S THE ONE GUY YOU COULD PICK
UP FROM HIS TIME AND DROP
IN HERE, ON YOUR COUCH,
AND HE WOULD BE AS COOL
AS A CUCUMBER.
>> Carson: WHEN HE STARTED
WINNING, JACK, HE WOULD GO OUT
■■D BUY GOLD CAPS AND PUT --
HE'D BUY FRONTS -- WHICH, LIKE
WE WERE TALKING, HE LOOKED LIKE
BABY FROM CASH MONEY --
AS A SIGN OF STATUS.
AND HE WAS ROLLING IN THE CARS
AND STUFF.
THIS IS IN 1910.
>> THIS WAS 50 YEARS BEFORE
MUHAMMAD ALI.
IN 1910, WHEN YOU CAN GET
LYNCHED FOR LOOKING SIDEWAYS
AT A WHITE WOMAN, AND YOU'RE
EXPECTED TO --
>> Carson: AND HE, LIKE, MARRIED
THREE OF THEM.
>> AND HE MARRIED THREE OF THEM.
>> Carson: RACISM EVENTUALLY
CAUGHT UP WITH JACK, THOUGH,
TOWARDS THE END.
>> YEAH, WHEN WE COULDN'T BEAT
HIM, WE -- THE WHITE POWER
STURCTURE -- COULDN'T BEAT HIM
IN THE RING, THEY WENT AFTER HIM
FOR HIS PRIVATE LIFE.
AND THEY TOOK THIS OLD LAW THAT
WAS INTENDED TO JUST REGULATE
COMMERCIALIZED VICE --
>> Carson: THE MANN ACT.
>> THE MANN ACT, AND APPLIED IT
AGAINST AN INDIVIDUAL, ILLEGALLY
AND UNCONSTITUTIONALLY
FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, WHICH
HAS PROMPTED US NOW,
IN OUR OUTRAGE OVER THE RACISM
OF THE PERIOD, TO GO OUT AND TRY
TO SEEK A PRESIDENTIAL PARDON --
>> Carson: JACK, EVENTUALLY, WAS
KILLED IN A CAR CRASH
IN RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA.
>> RIGHT.
>> Carson: HE DID A YEAR
AND A DAY IN PRISON FOR JUST
SOME BS STUFF, THE MANN ACT.
THEY USED THIS SECT OF THE LAW
TO SCREW HIM.
AND NOW, THIS MANY YEARS LATER,
YOURSELF, AND IF I CAN JUMP
ONBOARD, I'D LIKE TO.
>> PLEASE.
>> Carson: YOU'RE TRYING TO GET
THIS PRESIDENTIAL PARDON.
>> PLEASE, EVERYBODY SHOULD JUMP
ONBOARD.
>> Carson: WHERE DOES THIS STAND
TODAY?
>> SENATOR McCAIN
AND SENATOR KENNEDY
AND SENATOR ORRIN HATCH,
THE WHOLE POLITICAL SPECTRUM,
HELPED GET PASSED A SENSE
OF THE SENATE RESOLUTION, URGING
THE PRESIDENT, WHO'S THE ONLY
PERSON THAT CAN DO THIS,
TO PARDON JACK JOHNSON.
AS GOVONOR OF TEXAS,
GEORGE BUSH, FOR
FIVE CONSECUTIVE YEARS,
'96 THROUG■■2000, ISSUED
A JACK JOHNSON DAY■■ROCLAMATION
ON HIS BIRTHDAY, MARCH 31st.
AND I THOUGHT, "NO MORE
MARCH 31st SHOULD GO BY IN THIS
NATION WITH THIS BOXER,
WHO MAY BE THE GREATEST OF ALL
TIME," AND THERE'S ARGUMENT
ABOUT IT.
MUHAMMAD ALI CERTAINLY GOT ALL
OF HIS DEFENSIVE SKILLS
AND STYLE FROM JACK JOHNSON.
HE GOT HIS BRASH PUBLIC PERSONA
FR■■ JACK JOHNSON, AND --
>> Carson: MUHAMMAD ALI HAD
NOTHING ON JACK JOHNSON,
AS I SAW IT.■■
I MEAN, CERTAINLY, THERE WAS
MORE OF A GLOBAL THING GOING ON.
BUT GIVEN THE TIMES, GIVEN 1910■
GIVEN THE BATTLE OF THE CENTURY,
WHAT THIS ONE FIGHT, WHEN
YOU WATCH THIS MOVIE, BETWEEN
THE WHITE GUY AND THE BLACK GUY,
WHAT THAT FIGHT SYMBOLIZED■■
IN CULTURE AT THE TIME, AND EVEN
THE EUROPEANS KNEW
ABOUT THE FIGHT.
>> EXACTLY.
>> Carson: IN 1910, WAY MORE
WEIGHT WAS HELD ON JACK JOHNSON
THAN MUHAMMAD ALI.
>> HE WAS THE MOST FAMOUS
AFRICAN-AMERICAN ON EARTH
AT THE TIME, AND IT JUST SEEMS
LIKE HIS BIRTHDAY SHOULDN'T PASS
WITHOUT HIM BEING PARDONED.
>> Carson: IT'S AN INCREDIBLE
MOVIE, AND, I MEAN, YOU DO
INCREDIBLE WORK, SO I URGE
PEOPLE TO GO WATCH IT,
AND THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
QUICKLY, WHAT ARE YOU WORKING
ON NOW?
>> WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS
HUGE STORY OF THE AMERICAN
EXPERIENCE IN THE SECOND WORLD
WAR, TOLD THROUGH THE EYES
OF FOLKS FROM
FOUR GEOGRAPHICALLY DISTRIBUTED
TOWNS, AND IT IS AS EXCITING
A PROJECT AS WE'VE EVER
WORKED ON.
>> Carson: I THINK,■■
BY AND LARGE, MOVIES THAT COME
OUT TODAY ARE JUST SORT
OF CRAPPY.
AND I'VE JUST ENJOYED WATCHING,
YOU KNOW■■YOUR WORK
AND DOCUMENTARIES.
I THINK IT'S A GOOD TIME TO DO
WHAT YOU DO.
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE WORD
"HISTORY" IS MOSTLY MADE UP
OF THE WORD "STORY,"
AND FOR MOST OF US IN SCHOOL, IT
WAS JUST DEADLY BECAUSE PEOPLE
FORGOT TO TELL STORIES.
WHEN YOU TELL STORIES, IT
DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER IT WAS
FEATURE FILM, TELEVISION SHOW,
A DOCUMENTARY --
>> Carson: AND, TRUST ME, YOU DO
NO■■HAVE TO PLAY BOXING TO ENJOY
THIS MOVIE.
>> NO.
IN FACT, I AM NOT A BOXING FAN.
I DID THIS BECAUSE THIS GUY IS
SO COOL AND SO INTERESTING
AND SO SYMBOLIC OF THE WHOLE
HISTORY OF FREEDOM IN AMERICA.
I MEAN, IT ALL INTERSECTS
IN THIS ONE LIFE.
AND HE'S AN UNBELIEVABLE
CHARACTER.
YOU'D WANT TO KNOW HIM.
HE JUST HAS THIS --
>> Carson: IT SHOULD BE A MAJOR
MOTION PICTURE AT SOME POINT.
>> OH, MOST DEFINITELY.
>> Carson: RIGHT.
ALL RIGHT, GOOD.
YOU SHOULD CHECK YOUR LOCAL
LISTINGS FOR THE ENCORE
PRESENTATION OF
"UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS" ON PBS
OR PICK UP THE DVD.
KEN BURNS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH
FOR BEING HERE.
>> MY PLEASURE.
>> Carson: CRAIG BIERKO -- YOU
SHOULD WATCH "MODERN ORTHODOX"
AT DODGER STAGES.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK
WITH THE PIERCES RIGHT AFTER