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REECE: Hi. My name is Bryan Reece, and in today's debate we're going to be talking about immigration. More specifically, we're going to be looking at illegal immigration. I'm going to be making the argument that illegal immigration is an opportunity for the United States. My opponent, Victor Obasohan, will be saying we need to do all we can to end illegal immigration. Why don't you start it off?
OBASOHAN: This country was founded by immigrants. Americans love immigrants, because we bring richness to the society. But to reward illegality is not part of the American fabric. Are you suggesting that illegal immigrants should be welcomed with open arms?
REECE: I'm saying that, just like you said, immigration is an opportunity. It is a thing that makes the United States great. And what we classify as illlegal today has not always been that way. Do you know how my ancestors got here? They were in Wales. They got on a boat. They sailed across the Atlantic Ocean. They ran into Virginia. And they got out. That was it. They immigrated. Now, there's all this complication going on. Why did we add all this complication? Is it because immigrants are brown now? Is that what's going on? Immigrants are yellow. All the white ones, hey, come right over.
OBASOHAN: You have to decide what kind of society you want, Professor Reece. A law-abiding society or one with open borders to say anyone who wants to come, simply come. I don't care whether they are pink or yellow or green.
REECE: Suddenly, it's hard for the brown ones to get over here, for the yellow ones to get over here. But the white ones, it was really easy.
OBASOHAN: It may have been easy, but it does not excuse the illegality of it. I can't imagine -- do you know the cost of illegal immigration in this society? Do you know your way of life is threatened? Security, you know. Crime. All of this will go up. You are willing to put up with all of this?
REECE: All of those things would disappear if we go back to a more open-border type of situation. We are forcing these people to go underground. We are forcing them to stay below the radar screen because of the current system. They come here for jobs, but they've got to lay low. So they don't pay taxes. They don't get social security. They don’t register --
OBASOHAN: And they commit crime.
REECE: That's the problem. We need to go back to a system that is more open.
OBASOHAN: I think we should shut the borders. There are too many of us already. Now, too many of us in America. And to compound this problem with illegal immigrants? We cannot afford this, Professor Reece. We are not that rich. We can’t afford to say anyone who wants to come, simply come. We cannot afford it.
REECE: We are the richest country in the world. And California --
OBASOHAN: Credit card. Credit card. You pay later. You don't have any money. It’s why you're borrowing.
REECE: The idea of America -- being an American, it’s not a race. It's not a religion. It's not a skin color. I don't even think it's living in a certain place. In my mind, the idea of being an American is an attitude. It's a person that said, "I don't like my surroundings, and I'm going to do something about it. I'm going to make this place a little better. I'm going to make it better for me and my kids." And when those people come across -- let's say from Mexico to California -- they walk across the desert. We should hug those people. That's the kind of America I want.
OBASOHAN: Not me. I’m not going to hug them. They are illegal. They should be rounded up and shipped back.
REECE: They're illegal because of these crazy rules that make them illegal. We can eliminate those rules.
OBASOHAN: I'm afraid, now. Post-9/11. Don't we have a right to know who comes to this country?
REECE: Post-9/11 adds a wrinkle to everything.
OBASOHAN: This is a matter of security for me. That those of us who come to this country -- you stop planes -- planes that come from Europe with a name Mohammed. You divert them to Maine. But when it comes to Mexico, Arizona, California -- you want to open up the floodgates because you want cheap labor. That's what you want. You don't want to pay Americans.
REECE: These people are taking jobs that Americans won't take.
OBASOHAN: What kind of jobs?
REECE: Fruit-picker. People working in the fields.
OBASOHAN: If you pay us handsomely, we'll take them.
REECE: There are canning industries.
OBASOHAN: Yes. We can do that job. We can do it, if you pay us --
REECE: They won't take them right now.
OBASOHAN: You don't want to pay us even minimum wage. You said that earlier. You want to pay us pennies. Pennies! Again, corporate America -- you like corporate.
REECE: You mentioned this as a 9/11 problem. How come we had the same problem before 9/11? You're just adding this fuel to the mix to confuse the issue. This is not a 9/11 issue.
OBASOHAN: Even before 9/11, we had a problem with illegal immigration because the set argument has always been there. Only 9/11 added to it -- the cost. Do you know that in some states the roll in terms of social welfare services is so full of illegal immigrants? Who is paying for all of this? Taxpayers. Could your tax burden be lessened if you don't have to pay for these illegal immigrants?
REECE: Look at this. You keep talking about how this is an expensive problem. Illegal. Illegal. Illegal. Let's make it legal. Let's adopt the Bush plan. Let's find a willing employer with a willing worker. Make it legal. Now, we fixed problem, right?
OBASOHAN: Again, you are on the side of corporate America. You want corporate America to get this cheap labor to the detriment of Americans -- legal Americans.
REECE: I want to take all this stuff that's going on in a black market -- in an underground type of society -- and open it up to the light. Let's look at it. Let's bring them in. Let's find good jobs for people.
OBASOHAN: You want to reward again, Professor Reece, illegality. You want to say --
REECE: If you make it legal, it's not illegal.
OBASOHAN: If they are here, you want to make them legal. Then, you are rewarding illegality. That's why some civilians, particularly in Arizona, are picking up arms and protecting the border. The federal government has the responsibility to protect the borders.
REECE: From what? From some guy who wants to come across and work? What is the harm?
OBASOHAN: You are seeing this only from the moral point of view. I know you are a very moral person. But there is something called "politics." We don't want this illegal immigration. They can go to some other country. Come to Nigeria. Come on. Let's go.
REECE: I don't see the big harm in the whole situation. You know, if you were in Mexico or Guatemala or Vietnam or something and you're having a rough life, how can I say to you, "Don't go to this other country to make your life better and to make your whole family's life better"?
OBASOHAN: There is something fundamentally unfair about it. Those of us, including me, who came to this country, came legally. We went, we stood in line, took our own chance and turn. But these people who are coming to this country illegally are cutting into line. You know how Americans love lines. We stay in lines all our lives. Stay in line. And these people are cutting through the line. Do you know Americans don't love people cutting into the line?
REECE: You know what's unfair? Prior to Ellis Island -- you know, Ellis Island is where we used to register all the immigrants that were coming from Europe. Prior to Ellis Island, when Europeans would immigrate to the United States, they would get on a steamboat. They would cross the Atlantic Ocean. They would land in the New York Harbor. And the customs person would say, "What do you have here?" And they say, "I have a bunch of European immigrants." They say, "How many men do you have? How many women do you have? How many children do you have? Okay. Go." And they just moved into the United States and helped make this country great. That's fair. We should treat those immigrants the same way we treat today's immigrants.
OBASOHAN: I am for immigration -- but legal. Anyone who wants to come to this country should be like me. File an application. Take your chance. Stay in line. Stand in line, you know, and come. I don't want people coming to this country with some criminal backgrounds lurking around my neighborhood simply because they want a better life.
REECE: We can find the criminals if we would open this up and welcome everybody and have a better way to process everything and bring more people in.
OBASOHAN: When do we do it? We should do it in their own countries before they get here.
REECE: We tell them, "Look, you don't have to hide. You don't have to run under the bench. You don't have to follow some coyote across the desert to get here. You can come right through this process. And as long as you're not a criminal, then everything's going to be fine." We don't have to create all these hoops. We need to be embracing this type of person. This is a great person coming to this country.
OBASOHAN: All persons come in all kinds of colors. We need to know who is coming. Who is this person? Is he the criminal, you know, that was let out of jail by Fidel Castro? Where are they coming from? We need to know. Legal immigration has served America well, but illegal immigration represents a danger to our own way of life, to this democracy. The cost is too high. We can't afford it. I don't care how rich you are. Credit card country. We cannot afford this kind --
REECE: Every time an immigrant leaves Cuba they come up on the shore, sometimes almost dead from the difficult journey they make. Sometimes we give them political asylum. We say, "Oh, look at this terrible country you're coming from. How horrible it was. Why don't you come in here and try to get your life back together?" We welcome them in the United States. If you're coming from a country that is suffering economically -- it's just falling apart -- why aren’t we welcoming those people in the same way?
OBASOHAN: Is that a new measurement? That if you have some economic hardship in your country, if you can just get to Florida, you are in?
REECE: Why is it only a political hardship the thing we say, "Now, that's a hardship"? Economic hardship -- that's your own damn problem.
OBASOHAN: Why don't you let in Haitians from Haiti? You let them in from Cuba, but those of us from Haiti, because we are coffee-colored, you know -- the poorest country in this hemisphere -- you ship us back. Why are you s*elective? It’s clearly for political reasons.
REECE: I'm agreeing with you on this one. We should let the Haitians in, also. We should let everybody into this country. We should welcome them at the Statute of Liberty.
OBASOHAN: I have a problem with everybody. Legally. Legally. Those who want to come must wait their turn.
REECE: You know what this reminds me of? You remember the Jim Crow laws when we said these are the laws and if you don't follow this law, you're breaking the law? Well, those laws were wrong. We needed to change those laws. Just like these laws are wrong. We need to change them to be more humane, more fair, more equitable.
OBASOHAN: This country, Professor Reece, cannot be run by the Lockeian principal of natural rights. If you are so natural, there's no relationship between morality and politics. This is a political-secular society. To deny that, it would be naïve.
REECE: Well, I think we can eliminate a lot of these problems that you’re talking about if we adopt a system that welcomes these people. We have hospitals that are being overrun. We have a tax-based system that's having difficulties collecting taxes. We have elementary schools that are being overrun. We have a lot of problems that can simply be addressed if we adopt --
OBASOHAN: And that is because of illegal immigration. They should be stopped in their own home countries before they get here. I don't want my way of life jeopardized. I cannot afford it. It is too expensive for me. My taxes would go lower if I don't have to subsidize illegal immigration. I can't afford it. We are not that rich, Professor Reece.
REECE: Immigration in the United States has gone through various waves. Regardless, we have constantly been receiving immigrants from throughout the world. What we should do about this current wave -- the current illegal immigration problem we're having? Some people said we should embrace it. Some people say we need to get rid of it at all costs. We'll leave it for you to decide.