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ANN: Shereen is a writer, broadcaster and academic who
started off her career with a doctorate in molecular
immunology from The University of Cambridge.
She's an award-winning journalist who's worked for
'The Economist' and 'Al Jazeera English'
and a former vice-chair of the UN's 'Global Commission
on *** and the Law', as well as a TED Global Fellow.
Like many Australians, she has one parent from- well not
specifically this- like many Australians she's got a mixed
background, one parent from Egypt, the other from Wales,
but grew up in Canada and now divides her time between
London and Cairo.
She's here to talk to us tonight about 'Sex and
the Citadel', her look at sexuality in Egypt
and the surrounding countries.
It's a collection of fascinating stories,
experiences, extraordinary people combined with astute
social analysis and cultural background.
For us, I think it provides a rare glimpse behind the
bedroom doors of a culture that we're absolutely
fascinated by, but curiously ignorant of.
So, tonight, is the chance for us- those of us who are
here, at least- to remedy that ignorance.
Shereen El Feki. (APPLAUSE)
SHEREEN: Great, well it's wonderful to be here and
my thanks to Ann and The Sydney Opera House for
this marvellous opportunity.
So, let me tell you about my experiences in Morocco.
I was in Casablanca, not so long ago, and I met
with a young, unmarried mother called Faiza.
Faiza showed me photos of her infant son and she told me
the story of his conception, the pregnancy and delivery.
It was a truly remarkable tale but Faiza saved
the best for last.
She said to me,"You know, Dr Shereen, I am a ***.
I have two medical certificates to prove
my virginity."
Welcome to the modern Middle East, where two millennia on
from the coming of Christ, *** births are still a
fact of life. (LAUGHTER)
Faiza's story is one of hundreds I've heard over the
past five years travelling across the Arab region,
talking to people about sex: what they do; what they don't;
what they think; and why.
Now, I know, depending on your perspective, this might
sound like a dream job or, a highly dubious occupation.
But, for me, it's something else altogether.
As Ann mentioned, I am half Egyptian, I am Muslim but, I
grew up in Canada, very far from my Arab roots.
It was really only the events of 2011- that tragic day-
that really prompted me to want to understand
more about the Arab region.
That I chose sex as my lens, I know, is a little unusual,
but that comes from my professional background.
I trained as an immunologist and my first job at
'The Economist' magazine was writing about health care and,
in particular, writing about the global *** AIDS epidemic.
And, because of my connection to the Arab region, I became
interested in what is happening around *** in
that part of the world.
Now, I have to tell you that we don't have much *** in the
general population in the Arab region, but our
rates are increasing.
And, in fact, the Arab world is one of only two regions
in the world where *** is on the rise.
And, to look at ***, you need to look at sex because the
taboos around sex are one of the major stumbling blocks
to really effectively addressing this epidemic.
But, beyond sex, looking at sexuality- which is about
more than attitudes and behaviours- but it's values,
and beliefs and it's fears, and it's fantasies.
It tells you so much about a society because what is
happening in our intimate lives is shaped by forces
on a bigger stage.
In politics and economics and religion and tradition and
gender and generations and, at end of the day, if you
really want to know a people, you start by looking
inside their bedrooms.
Across the Arab region, the only socially accepted context
for sex is marriage. And, it's not any old marriage.
It has to be approved by your family, approved by religion
and registered by the state.
If you don't get married, you enter into what could best be
described as a state of suspended adolescence.
It's very hard to move out of your
parents' place, particularly if you are a woman.
You're not supposed to be having sex and you're
DEFINITELY NOT supposed to be having children.
This is what I call "the Citadel" in my book.
This is an impregnable fortress which resists any
alternative, any other option.
And, around this Citadel is a VAST field of taboo against
pre-marital sex, against homosexuality, abortions,
condoms, ***, you name it.
Faiza is living proof of this.
Her virginity statement was not a piece
of wishful thinking.
Women are expected to be virgins on
their wedding night.
And, by that, I mean you are expected to turn up
with your *** intact.
There is a saying in Egypt about this,"The honour of a
girl is like a match. It only lights once."
And, this honour is not an individual concern.
This is not a private matter.
This is a question of concern for your family; about your
family's honour, your family's reputation and, in
particular, the reputation of the men-folk in your family.
And, so, women and their relatives will go to
tremendous lengths to try to preserve this tiny piece of
anatomy, whether it's trying to keep girls on the
straight and narrow, as some believe,
by performing female genital mutilation.
There are all sorts of types of virginity testing and also
trying to restore a reasonable facsimile of
virginity through *** repair surgery.
Faiza chose a different route.
She chose to have non-vaginal sex but she
became pregnant all the same.
Only Faiza didn't know it, because there's so little
sexuality education in schools and there's so little
communication around sex in the family.
When Faiza's condition became hard to hide, her mother
helped her flee her father and her brothers.
Honour killings are a real threat for untold numbers of
women across the Arab region.
But, when Faiza ended up in Casablanca, at a hospital,
the man who offered to help her actually tried
to *** her instead.
And, she said to me, "I screamed to him,
never touch me. I am a ***.
And, when I delivered my baby", she said to me,
"it was he who was in my head: a face that
I could never forget."
I have to say that Faiza is not alone.
In researching 'Sex and the Citadel', I've seen
plenty of trouble in and out of the fortress.
So, for example, there are legions of young men in the
Arab world who can't afford to get married because
marriage has become very expensive as countries in the
region have opened their economies to the full flood
of global capitalism.
Weddings are now an exercise in conspicuous consumption
and men are expected to bear the burden of cost.
But, you have to remember, that getting a job in the
Arab world is very hard.
Youth unemployment is running at 30, 40 per cent in some
countries and this is one of the major drivers
of the Arab uprising.
Now, the prophet Mohammed enjoined us, as Muslims, to
be a chaste before marriage and he suggested that we fast
until we could marry.
But, the prophet was not thinking that we should fast
until our early thirties, which is now the average age
of marriage for men in some countries in the Arab region.
Another group who are outside the Citadel are career women.
These are women who are educated, dynamic, successful.
They WANT to get married but they can't find a
husband because they defy gender expectation.
As one female doctor in Tunisia put it to me quite
clearly,"The women are becoming more and more
open in our societies but, the man?
He is still at the prehistoric stage."
And, then, there are men and women who cross
the heterosexual line.
They have sex with their own sex or they have a
different gender identity.
They're on the receiving end of laws which punish their
activities, even punish their appearance.
And, they face a daily struggle with social stigma,
family despair and religious fire and brimstone.
There are also female sex workers who really are one of
the most visible faces of sex in the Arab world but, also,
one of the most hidden populations, terribly
stigmatised, really in terrible straights in many
countries and capitals of the region.
It's not all rosy in the marital bed either.
I've met plenty of couples who are looking for better
sex lives but are really at a loss of how to achieve it,
particularly wives who are afraid of being seen as
'bad women' if they show some spark in the bedroom-
for all their husband's assurances to the contrary.
But again, as my Egyptian grandmother used to say,
"A woman who trusts a man is like a woman who stores
water in a sieve."
Now, it's not as if the Arab region has a monopoly
on *** hang-ups.
One of the most interesting aspects of having published
'Sex and the Citadel' is hearing from readers from
around the world, receiving Facebook postings and tweets
and emails from readers across Latin America,
for example, and across Asia saying,
"We recognise the problems you talk about.
We face these in our own society."
And, within the Arab region, although we don't yet have a
'Kinsey-like' report to tell us exactly what's happening
inside bedrooms, it's pretty clear that something is going
wrong in the *** lives of people in the region.
We're talking about double standards from men and women,
sex as a source of shame, and family control, which is
limiting individual choices.
And, there is this HUGE gap between appearance and
reality: what people are doing; and what they're
willing to admit to.
And, a general reluctance to move beyond private whispers
to a serious and a sustained public discussion of change;
be it in the media, or in schools, or
in government policy.
As one doctor in the region summed it up for me,
"Here, sex is the opposite of sport.
Football? Everybody talks about it but hardly
anyone plays it.
But sex? Everybody's doing it, but nobody wants
to talk about it."
Now- that being said- let me read you a short translation
from one Arabic book: "I want to give you a piece
of advice which, if you take it, will make you
happy in life.
When your husband reaches out for you, when he seizes of a
part of your body, sigh deeply and look at him lustily.
When his *** penetrates you, talk flirtatiously and move
yourself in harmony with him." Now, hot stuff, huh?
(LAUGHTER) Now, these handy hints might
sound like something out of 'The Joy of Sex' or 'YouPorn.'
In fact, they come from a 10th Century Arabic book
called'The Encyclopaedia of Pleasure' which covers sex
from aphrodisiacs, to zoophilia, and
everything in between.
The Encyclopaedia is just one in a very long line
of Arabic erotica.
And, much of it was written by religious scholars.
Going right back to the prophet Mohammed, there is a
rich tradition in Islam of talking frankly about sex,
not just its pains but also its pleasures, and not just
for men but also for women.
Today, those days are long gone.
It's very hard to find such free and frank and
informative advice about sex in Arabic, particularly if
you're a woman.
In fact, today's *** landscape in Egypt,
and many of its neighbours in the Arab region,
looks a lot like Europe and America on the brink
of the *** Revolution.
And, while the west has opened up around sex over the
past few decades, it is as if Arab societies have
been moving in the opposite direction.
In Egypt, and many of its neighbours, this is part of a
wider closing down on political, economic, social
and cultural thought and it's the product of a very complex
historical process and one which has gained ground
with the rise of Islamic conservatism
since the late 1970s.
"Just say 'No'" is how conservatives around the
world deal with any challenge to the *** status quo.
In the Arab region, they brand these attempts as a
"western conspiracy" to undermine "traditional" Arab
and Islamic values.
But, in fact, what's at stake here is one of their most
powerful tools of control: sex, wrapped up in religion.
But, you only have to look back at history- and you
don't need to take a glance back a thousand years- you
only need to look to the days of our fathers and our
grandfathers to see that there have been times of
greater pragmatism and tolerance and a
willingness to consider alternative interpretations.
Be it abortion, or condoms, or even the incendiary topic
of homosexuality, it is not black and white
as conservatives would have us believe.
On this, as so many matters in Islam, there are at least
'Fifty Shades of Grey'.
Now, in researching 'Sex and the Citadel'
I have met scores of men and women who are busy
exploring that spectrum.
I have met: sexologists who are trying to help couples
find greater happiness in their *** lives; pioneers
who are managing to get sex education into schools, often
in very conservative communities; small groups of
men and women, lesbian, gay, transgendered and ***
who are reaching out to their peers with online initiatives
and real time, real life support groups.
There are women, and increasingly men, who are
starting to speak out and fight back against ***
violence in the home and on the streets.
There are groups that are trying to help female sex
workers protect themselves from *** AIDS and other
occupational hazards.
And, there are NGOs that are trying to find a place for
*** mothers like Faiza; help them to find jobs, get a
place to live, reconcile with their families and,
critically, keep their kids.
Now, we're not talking about a *** revolution here.
This is not how change- social change happens in the
Arab region through dramatic breaks with the past.
We are talking about a *** evolution.
There are these wonderful innovators, whether they're
working at the level of changing national law, or
community projects, or even trying to challenge taboos in
their personal lives.
That they are looking to other parts of the world- not
just the west, but the global south- and they are adopting
lessons and they are adapting them to local conditions.
They are trying to forge their own path,
not just follow in one blazed by another.
As one gay man in Cairo- who's on the sharp end of
police abuse and EVERY DAY discrimination- put it to me,
"I want my rights Shereen but, only within the framework
of an Egyptian society.
If I go for this'gay pride', what am I really asking for?
Go and kiss a man in the street?
No, no, no, this is an Islamic country.
I don't want that. But, I want respect.
That's all I want.
Not because I am gay, but because I am a human being."
But, in that one small word "respect", lies an EXTENSIVE
wish list when it comes to *** life.
That respect includes the right to control our own
bodies and to access the information and services that
will help us lead happy, pleasurable and
satisfying *** lives.
It's the right to express our ideas, to choose our partners,
to marry of our own free will, to decide to be sexually
active, or not, to decide to have children, or not;
all this without violence, discrimination or coercion.
And, THAT is a tall order anywhere in the word.
Now, we are very far from this in the Arab region.
SO much needs to change.
Law, education, economics; the list goes on and on.
And, it is the work of a generation at least.
But, it begins with a journey that I myself
made asking hard questions of received wisdoms.
Now, there are three red lines in the Arab world.
Topics you're not supposed to challenge in word or deed.
One of these is politics but, since the events of 2011 and
the upheavals we're seeing in Egypt and many countries
of the Arab region, that red line of politics has
been well and truly crossed.
The second red line is religion.
But, now that politics and Islam are connected in many
countries- as we've seen with the rise and also fall of
groups like the Muslim Brotherhood- people are
starting to ask hard questions of religion.
For example: the role of Islam in public life.
So, that third red line is sex.
And, it may seem something of a luxury in this time of
turmoil to talk about sex, to challenge taboos and
to seek alternatives.
But, the personal and the political
are intimately entwined.
If we do not achieve justice and freedom and dignity and
equality and privacy and autonomy in our private
lives, in our *** lives, we will find it very hard to
achieve them in public life.
At the end of the day, sex is both a mirror of the
conditions that have led to the ongoing turmoil in the
Arab region, and it will be a measure of the change that
millions are hoping to see in the years to come.
Thank you. (APPLAUSE)
ANN: Shereen, that was a wonderful introduction to
some of the particular issues that you talk
about in the book.
But, before we start, I think there're a couple of
background issues that are important to talk about a
little bit, one of which is that, a lot of the time, a
lot of the stories, a lot of the evidence, a lot of the
information comes from Egypt and surrounding countries.
But, I just want you to tell us a little bit about
the meaning of Egypt in the Arab world.
How culturally significant it is and why.
SHEREEN: Well, Egypt is the pivot point of the Arab world.
It is the most populous country in the Arab region.
And, it has considerable cultural power, soft power,
because its films and its soap operas and its
literature have spread far and wide in the Arab region.
Now, what's interesting is, when I started this book in
2007 and 2008, many people in the Arab region were
not looking to Egypt.
It had been written off as a sink-hole, really, of
political oppression and corruption and poverty and
crumbling infrastructure and rising Islamism.
And, as one taxi driver in Rabat, Morocco, put it to me,
with sort of DEVASTATING simplicity:"Egyptians,
so egotistical and for what?" (LAUGHTER)
But, what is most interesting is that, since the events of
2011- the fall of Mubarak and, most recently, the fall of
Morsi- that, really, Egypt has regained
its geopolitical mojo.
And, what happens in Egypt matters, not just for Egypt,
and not just for the Arab world as well.
But, as we've seen, it causes anxiety in capitals
around the world. So, Egypt matters.
ANN: Mm. I mean, I think, it's
interesting that we see it- from here- as a country.
But, really, it's as if it was a combination of the
traditional publishing centre.
So, somewhere like London and Hollywood rolled into one.
SHEREEN: Well, it's- certainly the population
of Cairo, during the day, is about 30 million.
It feels as if it's London and New York and Sydney
all put together.
ANN: And, the other real building block, I think, of
the book is the notion of what family means
in the Arab region.
The very different significance of family and
their role- it plays in *** mores and
where power sits in family.
So, I wondered if you could just talk a little bit
about what family means.
SHEREEN: Well, it's very interesting because the
patriarchy is alive and well in Egypt and
across the Arab world.
Just because we have got rid of the 'father of the nation'
in Mubarak does not mean that the father of your family
doesn't still hold sway.
And, I very often asked young people, whom I met in Tahrir
Square, does this political upheaval make any difference
to the way you interact in the family? And,
it was interesting.
Younger kids, for example, you see challenging their
parents for, let's say, fewer chores, or a
bigger allowance in the spirit of the,
'This is the revolution. I want my rights'.
But, there are real limits to that.
And, it was really brought home to me in one young
woman, who is a real firebrand, and she was one of
the very few individuals I interviewed who saw the
connection between the political and the personal.
And, she's a 19 year-old literature student, but she
can quote chapter and verse from Paris'68.
And, she loved to say to me, "It is forbidden to forbid."
And, what was most interesting is- I quoted her
in the book and I gave her a copy- and, she works in an
NGO, which is actually trying to defend freedom of
expression but, she called me up and she said,"Shereen,
do you mind if the book is translated into Arabic,
that you don't actually put my name in it?
Because, I'm afraid my mother might read it."
So, there is a disconnect between the personal
and the political.
And, we don't yet have practical structures on the
ground which recognise and respect individual rights.
Although we have these constitutions that are being
rewritten and laws being drafted, at the end of the
day, for example, if I get into trouble in Cairo, I
can't rely upon the police, or a lawyer, or the system
to defend my rights as an individual.
It's gonna be a call to my uncle and a hope that he can
use his influence to get me out of trouble.
Now, I need to point out that my uncle, when I was writing
this book, would say to me, on an almost daily basis,
"Shereen, don't talk to people about
politics or religion."
Fortunately, he never told me not to talk to
people about sex.
But, he does have real practical implications.
And, again, this was brought home to me by another
individual I interviewed who is an extremely articulate
*** activist in Beirut.
And, we were talking about the nature of ***
orientation and *** identity and she said to me,
"Shereen, what are you talking about? There's the
*** rights, individual rights, *** identity?
I don't even have an individual identity.
In the records of the state, I am registered as the
daughter of my father.
And, if I were to marry, I would be the
wife of my husband.
How can you talk about me having a *** identity,
an individual identity?"
And, it really brought it home to me.
It's absolutely true.
ANN: And, I think, that's something that people who
live in a country like Australia, or in Canada,
where that situation has changed, one or two
generations ago- that the family was your social
welfare, safety net.
The family was where you looked to find a job.
The family, you know? That it was the source
of all of those things, that- in some ways-
you know, in a country like this there are different ways
of accessing those services, of accessing services,
or government support.
And, that, to look back to that stage where you cannot
say, "Well, I am going to move away from my family
and if they don't like it, that's too bad" because,
there is that complete- not just the emotional ties-
but also that financial and social dependence
on that network. SHEREEN: Absolutely.
And, I think there is a danger to look at the
trajectory of social and *** change in the west and
to think it- as I mentioned in my talk- that it's a path
that has been blazed and other cultures are just going
follow along behind it.
I often make the analogy, about the *** Revolution
that it wasn't a helicopter that took off
from a land of taboo to a free air of liberty.
It was more like one of those Hercules transporter planes-
those big things that need a very long runway?
And, that runway was laid through hundreds of years of
political, economic and social change in the west.
Now, arguably, we may or may not have a plane in the Arab
region at the moment.
We definitely haven't built that runway.
And, when we take off, I actually don't think we're
going to be heading in the same direction.
But, what I think is most interesting about the groups
that I talk about in the book- and I really wanted to
show in the book that this is not just about what's wrong
in the Arab region- this is about what's right.
How people are finding solutions.
And, these solutions often look different
but they make sense.
And, what is most interesting is that these people who are
forging this path, when they do things differently, it's
not out of ignorance. It's out of information.
And, I think, it behooves those who are outside the
region, who want to help in that process, to respect the
different choices and different directions that
people within the region are choosing to take.
ANN: And that- that's a very interesting example you gave
about the gay activist really saying that they would
be choosing a very different path.
That it's not about- it doesn't really bear any
resemblance to a western version of gay
liberation at all.
SHEREEN: And, certainly, there are tools which are used.
ANN: Yeah. SHEREEN: For example, there
is a very lively presence on the internet and on Twitter
and Facebook for, increasingly for- certainly
for what we call LGBT activists- but, also,
reaching out to people who are not activists.
They're just men and women trying to find their way and
often reconcile their *** desires with
their faith as well.
And, so there are tools, certainly, that have been
used by groups in the west which are very valuable to
the emerging efforts in the Arab region.
But, again, often they're used quite differently
to a different effect.
But, it's still achieving what we are hoping to see-
which is the ability to lead a happy and successful and
pleasurable *** life, free of violence or coercion,
or discrimination. ANN: And, I think, also,
and in the context of a social structure
where family is important.
So, you know, what you referred to was somebody
leading a life where they were, as you say, able to
express themselves, sexually, but it didn't mean having
said to their family, "I know, that you don't."
You know,"You don't approve of this but
I'm going to do it anyway."
It means doing it in a way that was consistent with
respecting their family and wanting that same respect
in return I guess. SHEREEN: But, it's quite
difficult to achieve that because of the
gaps in communication.
What was interesting- Faiza, the group that she eventually
reached is one of a number of excellent NGOs in Morocco, as
I've said, that are helping, trying to help, to find a
place for unmarried mothers.
And, it's very interesting that the woman who
set up this NGO is a grandmotherly type.
And, she's a real force of nature.
And, she said something, which I heard time and time
again, is that: there just isn't any talk anymore in
families about sex.
I mean, mothers and daughters are not speaking.
And, this was not always the way.
In her own day and in her grandmother's day, there was
more frankness in discussion.
And, we find this in research across the region
that, very often, parents who want to talk to their kids
really feel inhibited.
One of the projects I didn't mention in my talk but,
really is incredibly innovative, is actually
run by a Palestinian woman living in Israel.
It's called Mantadajin Senaya [?] and it really has
an incredibly innovative program in trying to
promote sexuality education.
And, one of the things they found, in getting sexuality
education into schools- and these are highly conservative
communities- is that the parents, at first, are very
resistant to the idea that their kids are going to be
told, you know, the facts of life in such a frank fashion.
And, the belief generally is, "Oh no. If we open their
eyes, suddenly, they'll be fornicating wildly."
But, what they found is that, actually, when they're able
to get this into schools, the parents themselves then also
want to have lessons.
Because, as one of them said, "Look, we don't want to look
like an idiot in front of our kids."
But, what was also interesting is that she found
that, in improving the knowledge and the ease of
both parents and children, it changed the whole
dynamic of the family.
She said, for example, "After going through these
workshops, the participants- the husbands and wives-
were actually able to be more physically
demonstrative to each other."
In many Arab families, it's unheard of that a husband and
wife, a mother or father, would hug each other
or kiss each other in front of the kids.
And, yet, in being able to do that, it changed
the whole family dynamic.
And, the relations were better between the
generations and within the generations.
So, it's very powerful if you can overcome these
taboos in a way that is culturally acceptable.
With a bit of prodding, it can change everything.
ANN: Where do you think that increased inhibition
has come from? SHEREEN: It's a fascinating
topic and one which a number of historians and social
scientists have examined.
If one looks at the long history of Arabic erotica,
for example, it pretty well dries up around
the 19th Century.
And, it's not a coincidence that this is the time that
one sees European colonisation of many
countries in the Arab region.
And, many historians have posited that, in a sense, a
European morality comes to be adopted- certainly by the
classes of society which are in greatest contact
with the European colonisers.
What's interesting is that this closing down is really
accelerated by the rise of Islamic conservatism.
Hassan al-Banna, for example, who founded the Muslim
Brotherhood in 1920s Egypt, said that,"One of the reasons
that Egypt had lost its way and had been colonised by the
British is because it had deviated from"- what HIS
interpretation of- "Sharia", the Islamic way.
And, part of that, was the freedom that women enjoyed
and this licentiousness in society.
And, if you then fast-forward to- really- what we've seen
in the past couple of decades since the late 1970s, which
is a resurgence of Islamic conservatism, particularly
Salafi Islam, an ultra-conservative form.
That, in itself, is interestingly, in Egypt, at
any rate, connected, I think, to political repression.
We have had of decades of dictatorship.
And, these groups, these conservative Islamic groups,
have done very well at bringing- at attracting
adherence, In part, because they offered a form of civic
engagement that the government simply
did not allow.
And, quite frankly, because they offered services that
the government couldn't be bothered to provide:
education, housing, healthcare.
Now, what's the really interesting question, moving
forward, is that: now, that we have seen the rise and
quite dramatic and rapid fall of groups such as the Muslim
Brotherhood, what is it going to mean for this Islamic
conservatism moving forward?
And, I would say, "Watch this space."
ANN: Mm, I think it's a very- obviously- a
very interesting time.
And, we might talk a little bit about that later- about
what the future holds. SHEREEN: I have to say, Ann,
that if I knew that, I might actually be running for
President next year in Egypt. (LAUGHTER)
ANN: Oh, I- well, we won't hold you to a definitive
answer- just a little bit of, you know,
enjoyable speculation perhaps.
Can we go back to some, to the beginning, I guess, to
some of the beginnings- really thinking about the
fact that, in Islam, sexuality in marriage, you
know, for a very long time, until, you know, 'til
more recent conservatism, celebrated- in a way that
those of us who grew up in a Christian tradition with the
injunction,'better to marry than to burn.'
As one, you know, about as enthusiastic an endorsement
of married sex as you could get, this is a very,
very different view.
The kind of, of course, of course there are different,
you know- you can see that, at different times, that has
been interpreted differently.
But, it certainly is possible to look at that Islamic
tradition and see a much, much richer celebration and a
much less repressive view of sexualities in marriage.
SHEREEN: Absolutely, I mean, quite frankly, bad
love-making is un-Islamic.
Ah, and that was one of the great revelations to me
in researching this, this book- is to go back
through those texts.
And, what I found most interesting, in looking at
the history, for example, is that medieval Christian
commentators, when they wanted to criticise Islam,
would look at the sexuality of the religion.
And, in particular, they would say of the prophet
Mohammed,"How could this man possibly be a messenger
of God? He is so sexed up."
And, that's because there was- it was not seen as
incompatible to talk about the pleasures of the flesh
and the needs of the faith.
And, when I go back and I talk about the history, let
me be- make it quite clear- I am not some sort of
*** Salafi here.
I'm not suggesting that we go back to some mythical golden
age of, of *** proto, proto-liberation,
that's not at all.
But, the reason I return to the history, time and time
again, and that it's not ancient history- as I said,
it is within living memory- is that when the young people
I am hoping that my book will encourage, when they try to
stand up and challenge the taboos and the conservatives
who are a much stronger voice still, despite their
political travails in Egypt, when they say that,
"No, you are selling out to the west, these young people
can turn around and say, well that's simply not the case."
And, in fact, as some people have argued, as some
historians have argued, and I quote them in the book, when
Arabs were a confident and creative people they
were much more at ease in their *** skin.
The two are related.
And, I'm hoping that 'Sex in the Citadel'
is a tiny contribution to moving that debate forward.
ANN: And, can you tell us about how female
desire is seen in Islam?
SHEREEN: It's very interesting.
The long history of Islam, ah, recognises the
power of female desire.
And, in fact, what's most interesting is that female
*** desire is seen as much, much stronger
than male desire.
And, it explains a lot actually.
Because, there is this ongoing theme in the
literature that women's *** desire is so strong,
so much stronger than men's that it
needs to be controlled.
Because, if it isn't controlled, then there
will be "fitna."
There will be disorder in- in society.
And, this is reflected in the long history of this Arabic
erotica which have ENDLESS chapters on, ah,
impotence and aphrodisiacs.
And, you fast forward to the 21st Century and you find
that ***, for example, has been acting as an
alternative currency in Egypt.
It's, um- it's fascinating really.
I was once trying to get some paperwork done and was
confronting the full force of Egyptian bureaucracy-
without success.
And, yet, I'd heard about a colleague who
managed to get all his paperwork done in record time.
And, I was wondering, "What is his secret?"
Well, his secret is a supply of *** which he buys from
the States and then offers as an inducement for a speedy
completion of paperwork. (LAUGHTER)
Ah, and impotence? It's a- it can be a laughing matter.
It is the butt of a thousand jokes.
But, it is a serious matter for, for men.
Because, it's tied up in what it is to be a man.
If women have to prove their virginity on their wedding
night, it's anxiety-making for men as well because they
have to prove their virility.
And, quite frankly, given the levels of *** education in
Egypt and much of the Arab world, it is a
miracle that they consummate these marriages in,
in the first place.
And, honeymoon impotence is a- is a real problem across
the, across the Arab region.
Um, and what I found most interesting is, also looking
at some of the *** culture in Israel- although I don't
touch on it in any great detail in the book- but,
there are many academic papers written about
honeymoon impotence among orthodox Jewish populations,
ah, as well.
So, there are similar, ah, constraints on men and women
going into marriage in highly conservative
religious environments.
And, in the case of Islam, the point is: it doesn't have
to be this way.
We have a scope of discussion on so many issues, ah, and
the question is: why have we gravitated to the most narrow
and confining interpretation when we could be having a
much more open discussion? ANN: Mm.
I think, you mention in the book one case of a couple
who took 10 days to get, ah, to get, to consummate
the marriage... SHEREEN: And, that was with-
that was with a book. (LAUGHTER)
SHEREEN: Um, absolutely. And, I also talk in the book,
for example- I mean, one of these, one of these
practises, in order to demonstrate virginity,
is called,"dokhla."
And, you put a sheet under the bride on the wedding
night and, ah, she is- when she's deflowered
she bleeds into it.
And, this is a sign of her virginity.
So, I talk in the book of one, of one friend.
And, she's a- she's a scientist- and she's an
educated woman and her father is a lawyer in Cairo.
And, her prospective groom was getting regular telephone
calls from his future father-in-law saying,
"You must, you must contact us on the wedding night to
tell us that our daughter has bled as expected.
Remember, this is a question of family reputation."
Anyway the- the poor man- the groom-to-be became SO anxious
that night that he actually tried to take his bride to
the cinema, rather than the honeymoon suite, to avoid the
whole, the whole issue.
At the end of the day, the only way he was able to
consummate the marriage, was to turn off his mobile phone.
(LAUGHTER) SHEREEN: And, ah, the next
day her parents turned up to- ah- to take the sheet of
honour and show it to interested parties.
(LAUGHTER) ANN: You do feel that- it
does really make you feel, feel so sorry for them but...
SHEREEN: But, you know the.... ANN: The whole thing about
the public nature of some of those things.
SHEREEN: But, you know, the interesting thing is that,
yes, we look at it from the outside...
ANN: Yeah. SHEREEN: And, say,
"Oh, these poor women."
And, yet, it's important to realise that
women have agency. ANN: Of course.
SHEREEN: They have the ability to navigate- in these
really remarkable and innovative ways.
So, in fact, some women, use 'dokhla' as
a tool of empowerment.
In particular, women who are living in poorer parts of
Cairo- who want to go out, want more freedom, um, and
the ability to travel, perhaps for work-
they will use dokhla as almost a trade-off.
Because, they will say to their families,"Right, you
are worried that if I travel far afield that
something will happen to me, that I will lose my honour.
Well, I'm gonna sign up to dokhla because that will
prove to you that I have maintained the family honour."
So, they use this as a tool.
Very similarly, one of the interesting experiences
I had in, um, in Cairo - it's hard for me to
see you but, if you've been to Cairo, can you,
can you raise your hand please?
ANN: Can we have a- perhaps a little bit more light?
A little bit more light in the house?
SHEREEN: Fantastic, ok. ANN: So, there's quite a few.
SHEREEN: Yeah, that's very impressive.
ANN: Half, maybe even? Yeah.
SHEREEN: So, if you've been-oh....
ANN: Oh, great. SHEREEN: God, even more, gosh!
(LAUGHTER) SHEREEN: Shocking.
Um- so, if you've been to Cairo, downtown Cairo, you
may have seen some of the lingerie stores lining its
once grand boulevards.
And, seriously, it's hard to imagine places with more
lurid, more lurid underwear.
I have some friends who wrote a great book about, about
lingerie in Damascus.
It's called 'The Secret Life of Syrian Lingerie'
ah, and they have some wonderful photos.
And, they talk about bras, for example, that if you
press the cup it plays 'Old McDonald had A Farm'.
(LAUGHTER) SHEREEN: Ah, and - and I have
to say my, my wonderful and long suffering husband is
in the audience, and he was, ah, my fiancé when I
started this book.
And, I know, he was a little disappointed that I chose for
my trousseau a rather elegant and, ah, discreet form of
lingerie- not the chocolate G-strings, ah, that are
common in the region.
But, anyway, you go into- (LAUGHTER)
-you go into these shops and you find yourself shopping
with women who are 'Mohad Gabad.'
They have covered their head.
And, indeed, some are 'Monot Gabad' [?].
They are wearing, um, they are wearing face veils.
And, you wonder: why are these women who seem to
adhere to such conservative codes of Islamic dress, how-
how is it that they are buying such, frankly,
tarty stuff? (LAUGHTER)
SHEREEN: And, it was fascinating because, from a
western perspective, often this lingerie is perceived as
a tool of male oppression.
It turns women into these frilly, frothy sex objects.
But, when I talked to my female friends, they
didn't see this as a tool of exploitation.
They saw it as a tool of empowerment.
They said to me, "Shereen, it- we can't
articulate our *** desire.
We cannot say to our husbands: we want to have sex.
This would be a shame.
But, I can wear this lingerie and I can signal my desire."
So, women today, as through the ages, find ways to
subvert the, the controls and the regulation which
falls upon them. ANN: Mm.
Can we talk about some of the more, um, I guess, the more
personal aspect of going and talking to people,
and having these conversations?
Um, I mean, you start out by saying that, you know,
when you wanted to polish up some areas of your Arabic,
that in, in- you know, the person who was helping
you with that, was kind of surprised by
some of the vocabulary you wanted to acquire.
(LAUGHTER) SHEREEN: As I said, if I
were teaching someone English, I thought I- I think
I'd be wondering if they wanted to know, you know, all
the English, first off, for various *** practices and
sundry bits of, of reproductive anatomy.
ANN: You've had in, you know- you've gathered evidence, um,
of extraordinary, you know, things- I'm thinking, you
know, of some of the stories that women have told you.
What was the most difficult conversations that you had
with, with people, when you were talking to them about
their situation? SHEREEN: What's interesting
is: I never found it difficult in terms of
awkwardness, ah, or reticence.
Of course, of all the taboos around, ah, around sex, um,
one would think it would be very difficult to engage
people in conversation.
But, my problem was not getting people
to talk about sex.
It was getting people to stop talking about sex.
And, in Egypt at least, the situation is that women talk
with women all the time, it seems, about *** matters.
And, men, talk with men.
The awkwardness comes in, when you put
men and women together.
And, then, when you try to have a public discussion,
whether it's in the media or in, in government policy,
or in schools.
I think, I had - so I didn't have awkward conversations.
But, I did have really heart-rending conversations.
Ah, I often had very, very funny conversations as well,
which I recount in, in the book.
Um, I know *** Allen said, what did he say?
"Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing?"
Well, certainly talking about sex, you can't avoid
really laughing- laughing about these matters.
But, certainly, I mean, Faiza's story was among the
most difficult I heard.
Ah, but there is another young woman I met, um, and
her name is Ammani, and, ah, she lives in the conservative
south of, of Egypt.
And, she fell in love with, um, with a young man whom
she wanted to marry.
And, they went through the usual motions: he came
with his family to meet her family.
But, her family refused him.
And, the reason for that was largely because, unusually,
Ammani is the main breadwinner of her,
her family.
And, I say "unusually" because, although
women are increasingly educated across the
Arab region, and that includes Egypt, it's very
hard to get a job.
Only about 25 % of women are working.
But, anyway, she had a, she had a job.
And, one of the concerns her, her family had was that,
if she were to marry, the money she gives to them would
drain to the new couple.
And, so, after years of trying to persuade her family
to agree, she and her, um, fiancé, decided to take
matters into their own hands.
And, they went to Cairo, in the wake of the uprising,
and they had what is called an "urfi" marriage.
We have a lot of unofficial forms of marriage in Islam.
An 'urfi' marriage is, is one of these in Egypt.
And, it's a source of tremendous social anxiety and
controversy in, ah, in Egypt.
But, in talking to Ammani, she was really, really torn.
And, I asked her, "Ammani, you're in your twenties.
You're economically viable.
Why do you not just marry your fiancé and be
done with it?"
And, she said to me that ah, "I just can't.
I just can't do that.
Because, it's not just a question of my honour,
it's a question of my father.
My father is a great man in the mosque.
What would people say of him, if, ah, if they were to find
out that he has", what she called, "an impolite girl"
by what she means disobedient.
And, if I can just read you a bit about what she said,
'Like many young women I've met, Ammani is caught between
defiance and regret.
She is quietly furious with her parents for driving her
to this situation, but she is also torn by guilt.
"I am now deceiving my family," she told me, sadly.
"My family trust me and I am using their trust,
not in a good way.
I used to be so honest, all the time.
I used to tell them everything that was
happening in my life.
But, this thing, I cannot say."
Ammani's reticence is compounded by the fact that
she no longer believes that her urfi marriage
is Islamically sound.
"I read on the internet some people say it
is 100 percent halal.
Some people say it's 20 percent halal."
I don't know. "So, I told Hossam"-
who's her husband- "we need to stop doing
anything altogether"- that means having sex-
"because, maybe what we did is haram? I don't like to
continue in haram, forbidden. I have to feed poor people.
I have to pray a lot. I have to go to Mecca.
Maybe God will forgive me."
Ammani had few hopes that her family would come round, or
that Hossam would find a job in Egypt's struggling economy.
"I don't like to think what's gonna
happen in the future.
I don't like to make myself sad.
I put my faith in God" she said.
Ammani spoke as if the uprising had already passed
her by too late to make any difference to her life.
But, she had high hopes that any daughter of hers
would one day benefit.
And, she was clear on what she, as a mother, would do:
"I will never give something to my kids that
makes me hard with my family.
I hurt a lot from my family because they are thinking in
a different way" she said to me, her voice breaking.
"But, I will be able to understand my daughter, what
she is thinking, because I am that experience before.
I will let her choose the person that her heart chooses
and that her feelings choose."
And, that, of course, is the big question in Egypt moving
forward: will young people have the ability to make that
change, both in their personal, but also, in
broader public life? ANN: And, in some ways, that
story illustrates the fact that it comes down to that
fundamental, seemingly unchangeable, patriarchal
structure: the father as the head of the family.
And, that until that is changed, to some degree, um,
no matter how much incremental change happens,
it will be very hard, um, to see real prospects of that
kind of greater freedom. SHEREEN: And, we've had
glimmers of change, certainly during the uprisings- both
against Mubarak and also, ah, against, ah, Morsi.
We saw young people in the lead.
And, I spoke to an older generation and- you know,
older people are having a very hard time dealing with
the upheaval in Egypt- and they spoke with, with great
respect and admiration for young people, whom they had
basically written off as layabouts and too busy with
their play stations to really care much about
the future of Egypt.
And, they spoke with great admiration.
Now, the problem is translating those
moments of revelation into everyday reality.
And, we are very far from that in, in the
Arab world today.
ANN: Thank you to Shereen El Feki
(APPLAUSE)
SHEREEN: Thank you. And thank you Ann.